Hold entry and ATC

[redout]

If ATC direct you the enter a hold do they expect you to enter by the the obvious entry or do they allow you to manoeuvre to make a more convenient entry say standard as opposed to parallel ?

[radar707]

You would be expected to make the correct entry into the hold from your initial position over the fix, although I doubt that many controllers would notice what type of entry into the hold was required and would be too busy to worry about it if you didn't make the correct entry (direct, parallel or offset)

[redout]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

[radarman]

From a practical viewpoint I agree with 707.
However, just a thought from an airfield guy; area types may wish to correct me .........
Holding patterns are drawn up in accordance with a very complicated set of rules which take into account things like speed, radius of turn etc. ICAO docs define three standard entry procedures according to what direction you are joining the hold. The geometry of these entry procedures is also taken into account when defining the total airspace comprising the hold, which is then used as part of the calculations for 'deemed 'separation between holding and en-route aircraft. If you enter the hold by the incorrect (although convenient) procedure, it may take you outside the defined area of the holding pattern and therefore technically infringe separation from en-route aircraft.

[redout]

Thanks for that. Good to have an ATC viewpoint. I only asked as an instructor of mine recently commented that airlines at times try and force an entry to make life easier. But bottom line seems to be stick with the correct entry as regards your current heading to the beacon. But this begs to ask what about when you have 5 degrees either side and then obviously choose the more convenient ?

[Dream Land]

My autopilot does all my holding, no need for the "force".

[anotherthing]

As an area(TC) guy, Radarmans reply is spot on. The type of entry depends on direction of arrival and is designed with very good reason.

Mr707 is not 100% correct - we do know what a standard pattern looks like and we do notice when it is not being flown! If you make the wrong entry, it will affect your first spin until you get established.

Most of the time, we just take note of it and control accordingly or if needs be point it out to colleagues in adjacent sectors who might be affected by it (usually affecting climbs of departing aircraft). That said, as long as it is just a one of, it's not a great concern... if you consistently flew an irregular pattern, we would 'gently' correct your actions :ok:

[achille75]

In ATC we have studied the holding entrances many years ago, but, we was told that the choice of entrance is a pilot responsability.
So tha answer is: no, we don't matter the way you choose, but of course you have to make the manouvre remaining within the extension of the holding and of its "buffer area", and to be sure of this the correct entry only is really safe.
If you are very slow it really doesn't matter, but if you are high and fast...

For separation purposes we consider you to be "INSIDE" the holding from the moment you reach the holding fix, not only when you leave it for turn to the outbound leg.


Hope to have you on freq. ASAP.

[Greedo]

As an approach controller I would be expecting you to comply with your current route clearance to the fix where the hold was, and as such you are therefore kind of locked into the sector in which you will do the entry.

Of course if the pilot requested 'own positioning' for a specific sector entry, then that's normally fine too.

[DFC]

I do not think you are asking about the hold entry. You are asking if you can adjust your track inbound to the beacon or fix without asking ATC. The reason being to give you your preferred entry procedure.

The asnwer is no. You can not for example on being cleared to the ABC VOR on the 090 radial simply wander over to and track the 100 radial just to get your favourite entry procedure.

One important reason is that procedural separation standards will be based on you maintaining the (in this case) 090 radial inbound.

At the beacon or fix then you are requried to complete the entry for your heading. It is too late to change it at that stage.

Remember that hold entry is based on heading. I once watched an inexperieced pilot try to work their way round the clock to get an easy entry only to find that with the wind the increase in drift angle caused them to firmly remain in the unwanted sector :D

Of course if you receive permission then that is another thing.

Regards,

DFC

[frog_ATC]

(answer to the initial question)

Hello redout,

No, the ATC absolutely does not care which entry you perform.
If you love teardrops and hate parallels, you can substitude one with the other, as long as you respect the protected side of the hold.

And I must say, most of my airliners do (French airport) because the more flight hours you have the more lazy you become ! ;)
It's only GA IR and training flights who always perform the exact entry, as driven by the theorical books.

Moreover, the radar refresh frequency usually (in many airports) does not allow to say if you perfectly did the entry or not... and we do not really care, in fact.

But it may be important, especially in non-radar environment, to specify when you will perform a direct entry instead of another that could be more surely expected, because this implies several minutes difference for the sequence, and then modify the calculation of the expected approach time for the next airplane, or the expected position to include you in the runway pattern traffic.

Hope this helps.

frog_ATC

[Dream Land]

Hello redout,

No, the ATC absolutely does not care which entry you perform.
If you love teardrops and hate parallels, you can substitude one with the other, as long as you respect the protected side of the hold.Finally a dose of reality. :D