NATS EGLL hiring foreign ATCOs?

[rybber]

Hello all

Is NATS hiring foreign ATCOs for London Heathrow now (alt. Gatwick)?

Anyone know who to contact?

What is the requirements and what kind of deal do they offer?

Regards, Rybber

[Dan Dare]

There always have been large numbers of foreigners at Heathrow and indeed throughout nats. I believe it stems from the civil service days, when the government was trying to reduce unemployment in the disadvantaged countries of Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland.

[BAND4ALL]

Dan Dare ---BACK OF THE NET :ok:

[expediteoff]

I think you'll find that it's only the battle hardened original residents of these Islands that are able to hack it consistently at the World's Number One International!

[notared]

Dan, how Dare you?

[Track Coastal]

at the World's Number One International!

Are there brits at Atlanta's Hartsfield or Chicago's O'hare?

Last time I looked EGLL was 14th in traffic movements, with 11 American cities and 2 European (Charles De Gaulle and Frankfurt) moving more metal. But hey if it feels good continue to rub it! :rolleyes:

http://www.airports.org/cda/aci_common/display/main/aci_content07_c.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-54-57_666_2__

[Geffen]

Track Coastal,

It's the same old chestnut, LL is not the busiest under any circumstances unless the word 'International' is used.

http://www.airports.org/cda/aci_common/display/main/aci_content07_c.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-212-1376_666_2__

So LL is the busiest 'International' in terms of international passengers. A slight cop out no doubt. However there is an argument that it is the busiest dual runway airport in the world.

Vercingetorix,
You beat me to it whilst I was looking up stats!

[rodan]

Charles de Gaulle does handle more movements on a daily basis than EGLL but does have a lesser pax thruput which, in economic terms, makes it much less efficient.
Of course, that's mitigated somewhat by the million-odd tons more of freight that LFPG handles in a year than EGLL...

[Geffen]

Rodan,

Unless I am missing something, LFPG may not be included in these stats, LFPG doesn't appear in the top thirty, I have to say I find it strange there is no LFPG but there you go.

http://www.airports.org/cda/aci_common/display/main/aci_content07_c.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-212-1377-1383_666_2__

(maybe its that international thing and LFPG has loads of internal freight? or LL just has more heavies?)

[Gonzo]

Right, back to the question.....

Anyone know who to contact?

UK number 01489 616090
from overseas......+44 1489 616090

That's NATS recruitment

[prowler]

IF NATS will be unable to recruit form their own Schools of Ab-Initios in the VERY NEAR Future, they will certainly NEED to hire EXPATS.....:E

1 left LHR to join DXB in Jan 07, the next 2 to join us in DXB in Jun/Jul 08 Course...

Insh'Allahhh....:D

[Geffen]

Gonzo,

I guess someone had to get things back on track. Didn't LL once have someone from EHAM and another from Germany? Can't remember the dates though.

[Gonzo]

Err, one Dutch and two German, if I remember correctly.

[expediteoff]

If I remember rightly,not battle hardened original residents of these Islands, therefore they didn't make it.

[Gonzo]

Lots of people haven't made it at Heathrow, most of them have been English.

I believe that all three soon validated elsewhere. :ok:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

One question?
Is the English language mandatory for positions at that airfield, or French and ICAO phraseology is enough? :)

[anotherthing]

SINGAPURCANAC,

I believe Jockanese is an acceptable language at EGLL if that helps you?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm not sure that Heathrow has ever been the busiest airport in terms of movements. I went there in Jan, 1972, when the movement rates were 7-800ish. Prior to that I had worked at Kidlington Airport and was on watch one day when we racked up 1157 movements so Heathrow was a bit of R&R after that! OK, the Kidlington stuff was mainly clockwork mice but you still didn't know what day it was, or even your name, after working the Tower for about 8 hours!! I absolutely dread to think what Oshkosh must be like.

Heathrow to me was simply the BEST in the world and nothing will ever influence that opinion otherwise.

[divingduck]

Don't want to be a naysayer but.....

Busiest for International passengers? It doesn't really matter how many pax there are getting off, it matters how many bits of tin arrive carrying said pax...surely?

[TrafficTraffic]

Busiest for International passengers? It doesn't really matter how many pax there are getting off, it matters how many bits of tin arrive carrying said pax...surely?

I disagree - try driving through the Gateway Arterial roundabout with all the bloody SLF that get off here - thats what matters to me!


TT

[divingduck]

Verci me old...

Then surely the Yank airports have it hands down then?

Like fencing with an unarmed opponent really...:E

[120.4]

Totally agree HD

I did Biggin for 2 years. 1500 plus on a good summer Sunday, depending on how many of the circuits and bumps you forgot to add. 3 parallels, 21 main and grass left & right. Sky were black wi 'em. Heathrow - much more straight forward but still the pinnacle of my career.

In my view you can forget totals or origin; look at movements per runway per day. Heathrow about 680, Atlanta less than 600, Paris, O'hare & Frankfurt all less than 500. Heathrow scheduled at 98% of capacity - requires permanently optimum ATC performance and that's what makes it difficult to succeed.

But if you're good enough and can convince NATS of that they'd be mugs to turn you away. Current approach staffing is about 32 against 40 required. That requirement is certain to increase with MM and R3 and with current pass rates it won't be achieved. Overtime is currently keeping the operation going - if management ever upset the staff and they pull the plug on it Heathrow is in BIG trouble.

.4

[anotherthing]

120.4

Good figures, about the same that Gatwick achieves :}

[wadi racer]

120.4 Not sure where you got those single runway figures from but if that is the case (and surely not) then Dubai is pretty much the same with about 750 movements a day and 90% of those movements are with single runway ops.

I find this pretty difficult to believe:confused::confused::confused::ouch:

Wadi

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Vercingetorix.... Those with mega long grey hair (I call it "hilites") will remember the days of London Airways and London Radar. My girlfriend (now my wife of 40+ years) and I visited a few ATC facilities during a holiday in the USA in the 60s and at one busy TRACON I said to one of the controllers something like: "Wow, you guys must be good". he said: "Maybe, but we're not as good as London Radar". For a controller to say that about another unit showed in what regard UK ATC was held - - - in those days.

[161R]

anotherthing 120.4

Good figures, about the same that Gatwick achieves

Almost - but not quite!

Gatwick regularily acheive 850 a day on a single runway in the peak of summer

[120.4]

Wadi

Gatwick does about 850 off 1

Heathrow does about 1380 off 2 (33% heavies)

Atlanta does about 2700 off 5

O'Hare does about 2700 off plenty (is it 6 or 7 now?)

Paris about 1600 off 4

(Were Heathrow given a 3rd runway it would still only be able to operate at 70% of unrestrained demand (government figure), i.e. it could fill 4.)

.4

[Lon More]

Seems to me be suffering from thread drift into a "mine is bigger than yours"slanging match.


No truth in the rumour then that the main reason for a new, bigger tower at Heathrow was because more space was needed to park some large egos?:suspect:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Just as you can take into account the number of runways vs the number of movements, you can also take into account the number of movements per ATCO, the number of testicles per ATCO and the number of moron pilots per 100 movements. These things also have an effect on how busy someone will be and how "good" a controller would be in each different environment.

A comment like

battle hardened original residents of these Islands
being the only ones able to do the job is laughable when some of these battle hardened residents have been found lacking at other locations around the world. Given time to learn local nuances, I think the majority of ATCOs from reasonably busy airspaces would make the grade in the UK, if only given the opportunity.

[anotherthing]

161R

Thanks for that, didn't have the up to date figures to hand, was just trying ot point out that 'little old' single runway Gatwick achieves a very good rate, sometimes people forget this.

And no lon More, I for one am not comparing my willy to anyone elses, i am an area bod, not airport.

[Married a Canadian]

Dear Old Blighty welcomes all who add to the ethnic mix and can meet the necessary standards. Come on over and show us what you've got!

Interesting because a couple of the Canadians whom I work with have tried to move over to the UK for the same type of reasons I went to Canada for (ie marriage,relationship). NATS wanted them to do the WHOLE college course at Bournemouth...even though these guys were experienced controllers albeit from a different country. Not worth the effort really...especially redoing the basics!

Are these isolated cases or does NATS want them retrained...UK style. Surely that could be better done at a unit? Didn't notice too many foreign controllers when I was at EGPD or West Drayton. Are they put off by training requirements?

[Gonzo]

MaC, as far as I'm aware a non-UK ATCO would have to do the College course. I don't think any unit would be equipped, or even have any idea, of the requirements for 'filling the gaps' in terms of getting up to SRG licensing.

This might change in the near future with the European licensing.

[Married a Canadian]

Gonzo

Sounds like it needs a bit of streamlining. A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course. This maybe the reason why there aren't many foreign contollers working for NATS in the UK.

Be it tower,approach or area...the basic tools will be in place with previous experience...and then all it takes is learning the MATS and local procedures. Tweaking the phraseology and such comes from on the floor training.

One for CATC to come up with..a NATS version of an "experienced controller program".

To be fair...NATS probably has enough wannabes applying not to need to recruit from abroad. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Gonzo]

I agree with you, I think NATS has completely dropped the ball on this one. I know myself, and others, have made representations, but nothing's come from it.

We might have enough people applying, but surely an experienced ATCO will have more probability of validating, as long as they're placed at a suitable unit.

[161R]

I believe that now, any European with a licence, can apply to SRG (CAA) for recognition of their current licence and experience. SRG will then consult with the issuer of the original licence, and decide what, if any, further requirements must be met to enable "validation" training to commence. Following successful completion of validation training, it should be possible for a UK rating and Unit Licence Endorsement to be issued.

When European Licences are issued, presumably this process should be somewhat simpler........

As for the rest of the world? Who knows!

[Lon More]

Lon More. 120.4 was only providing facts. Now, go on, tell me that Eurocontrol ATC is intrinsically more difficult than EGTT TC work!

It's not a question as to who has the bigger one. It's simply qualitative difference.

I was also provifding facts; I was not referring to one post, my attention span is somewhat greater than that. As for the rest of your post; on what knowledge do you base your assumption?

Horses for courses - and I didn't see many shire horses at Maastricht;)

[Data Dad]

One for CATC to come up with..a NATS version of an "experienced controller program". I agree - in theory..... Look at other threads to see the shortage of people at CATC. Bear in mind that a lot of time and effort would have to be expended not only to design the course/programme but crucially to get it approved by the CAA. Anyone who has tried to get anything approved by the CAA knows how long it can take :ugh: Can NATS justify the time and effort ? When it would detract from getting the existing ab-initios through, probably not unfortunately. CAP 744 rules OK.....

A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course.Some years ago, I attempted to go from Airport to Area having at that time been a valid NATS Airport Approach/Radar & Tower ATCO for 19 years (and holding at that time an Area Radar (Aerodromes) Rating). Guess what? They were adamant that I did the basic Radar Skills course first - told them where to shove that! total insult:E

DD

[throw a dyce]

DD,
I thought you were being posted as you were a retained rights Atco 2 at a downgraded Band 2, Atco 3 unit which has used to hoover up many FAILURES from other units.:oh:
I would feel sorry for anyone from outside trying to get into Heathrow,Gatwick,Manchester because Nats can't even treat their own people in other units with any respect.Assessment for valid controllers,in Tower and Radar,OJTI,LCE even Watch Managers.Sneered at by these units
who have for some reason become so self important.Yet the very same units are taking trainees direct from the college with no experience, as ATCO2.
Are these assessments approved by the CAA?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

One more question:
That airfield ( EGLL) has paved runways or it is 2 grass runways?:)

[Data Dad]

TAD - Correct ..... almost. Due to the ridiculous amount of time said "retained rights" posting was taking to my "guaranteed option" (South of border), my eldest offspring had advanced so far down the exam road that staying in Scotland was best option. Only way to do that was to go Area - BUT and it is a big "but" NATS were insisting on a)Radar Skills Course first, b) having to do both Area 1 & 2 modules despite the original promise it would only be the 2nd c) no relocation until valid at next unit.....ie:about 18months down the road of living away from family. Years of :ugh: - couldnt take any more so gave in. Thats why I'm still here :ok: rather than on the end of a phone.

DD

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

EGLL has grass runways and gooseknecks.. It's amazing how they land half a dozen in each hour!!

<<A bit insulting really to ask someone who may have been doing the job for 10 years plus to go back to school and do a basic approach or area course. >>

It always was like that but I have a vague idea that I was the first ATCO to get into the UK "Ministry" without doing all the stuff at Bournemouth and I was certainly the first at Heathrow who had never attended a UK Primary Course. I was an experienced controller and held an ICAO ATC Certificate for TWR, APC and Area and a UK Licence with validated TWR and APC ratings. When I got through the entry interview I was told I'd have to do a course at Hurn - but I told them I already had a valid UK Licence so they dropped the requirement. Then they said I needed an Initial Mediacl - same response... got a letter telling me I'd passed the medical!! I was then posted to Heathrow but had to do the APC RAD Course at Hurn first. I met some ATCOs there who were on an Adult Primary Course which I would have been on - all were expereinced, either ex-Mil or overseas - but none had protested as I had. I know that my arrival at Heathrow caused a great deal of rest-room discussion and a lot of people were miffed. However, it all worked out OK and I seem to convince them I wasn't entirely stupid by validating the TWR in record time. Radar took somewhat longer due to my inexperience!

[andrijander]

Yep,

same happening in another countries...almost half of europe AFAIK. Supposedly with the ESSAR 5 coming in place changes will be made but nobody really knows how or when -even if it comes into practice in april-.

So until today you are asked to start from scratch no matter what your experience is and wether you have an european licence or not -few exceptions like Eurocontrol, DFS or naviair when they need people ASAP-.

So we'd love to go and show but not allowed yet.

A.

[Gonzo]

TAD,I've been at LHR for nine years. For the first four years of that there was no real assessment selection process. In that five years we had over ten ATCOs come to us from other units...most from 'busy' units such as TC and AC. Only one validated. Since we've introduced a selection procedure the validation rate has increased dramatically.I think the reasons for such a procedure are sound, and to be honest I'd expect that if I wanted to move to another unit. Why shouldn't I?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I believe that Australia applies the same rigour as UK CAA to it's ATC licencing

Sorry Verci you're wrong on that one. Australia like most places recognises an ICAO license and after having done a bridging course mainly to get the guys up to speed with the TAAATS system, and also up to speed on local differences in the docs from ICAO you are let loose on a local validation course.

Some have said here it is not worth the trouble to go through all this from a resource point of view. Considering the failure rate of ab-initios, the length of time of training and the overall cost, I would have thought that recruiting ATCOs from other suitably busy places with suitably stringent training and testing would make sense.

Doesn't bother me as not interested in living in the UK but still seems wrong.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

The question No3:
Does qualified ATCo at EGLL must know name of companies using that airport or speling is enough?:)
E.G. BAW- Speedbird or Bravo Alpha Wiskey,
DLH- Lufthansa or Delta Lima Hotel,

[andrijander]

Singapurcanac,

at least here in EC we have to go through a coding/decoding exam on callsigns. Not many failing there at all but it's really easy if you just put a couple hours effort in it. Ppl from LL will know the answer to that but for me seems pretty straight forward that it should, somehow, be done (maybe not an exam per se?).

A.

[throw a dyce]

Gonzo,
From what I can remember Heathrow assessments came in about 93-94.The reason I recall is that I had the same gun as Data Dad had,pointed at my head by Nats in 92.Your going to LL,no choice etc.By 94 you had to be assessed.
Maybe that's for Atco 3,and the ones you are taking about are Atco 2. Perhaps we should introduce an assessment as well for incomers at our little station.Takes as long to validate,double the runways,4 terminals as well and we have to do radar.After all the reason for the procedure is sound,and you would expect that moving to another unit.:cool:

[ATCO Two]

Oi Gonzo!

TAD is correct! As Unit Training Officer, I introduced assessments for prospective Heathrow Tower controllers around 1992. Various NATS and non NATS controllers applied, but unfortunately the majority were turned down. Some made it to the OJT stage, failed, and subsequently validated elsewhere. The notable success we had was Paul T.....g, but assessments did not yield a huge number of successful candidates, possibly because the opportunity was not widely publicised by management at the time.

[throw a dyce]

Data Dad,
Yes I remember we all had issues with the policy at the time.In fact didn't you calculate it would take until about 2012 for Nats to break even,on this cost cutting policy.Hey it took them until last year to realise it as well.:D:D

Atco Two. Well you basically put a dirty great big spanner into Atco 2 being posted out of Atco 3 units.Shortly after LL,KK and CC insisted on assessments,so there wasn't too many places left to go.I can think of another Atco 2,not DD who was being posted from about 90 until this was ''sorted'' in 02.He didn't go anywhere and retired.12 years waiting to be posted.:eek:
I

[ATCO Two]

TAD, yes I was aware of the controversy at the time regarding the assessments, but my priority was to select candidates who had a better than even chance of validating at Heathrow Tower, and not to waste valuable OJT time. What would be the point of causing people false hope and disruption to their lives, only for them to fail during OJT and then possibly return to their original units?

[Gonzo]

Well, maybe they were discontinued after your regime ATCO Two....or if not, they might well have continued in name only. Certainly some of the people we got should never have started training with us. In the last few years we've had a much more robust system of assessment.

TAD: Regarding your point about the fact we get trainees posted straight from the college: That's true....However, they have not become used to a particular traffic level, and we do attempt to pick the more promising ones.....we also put them through the equivalent of the old 'six weeks OJT' after which we make a yes/no decision before commencing the UTP.

[Geffen]

Gonzo,

Can't remember the last 6 weeker, in the old tower maybe? Isn't it just HVC now?

[ProcATCO]

For those in power who do not realise it.......................

There are a significant number of experienced ADV and ADI rated controllers out in the non NATS world who hold an APP rating, for whom the current round of "ageism" means they are hugely unlikely to get the chance of an APS rating.

However they may (I would) like to get away from the relatively poorly paid "non state" world and use their experience with NATS.

A wasted resource says I

:ugh: :{

[Gonzo]

Geffen.......TATC? Guess the decision has been moved to HVC....

ProcATCO.....I can't speak for other NATS airfields, but EGLL has taken on ATCOs straight from non-NATS units in the recent past (and possibly also in the near future)..... Liverpool, Southampton (pre-NATS), East Mids etc...

[anotherthing]

Gonzo wrote:
TAD,I've been at LHR for nine years. For the first four years of that there was no real assessment selection process. In that five years we had over ten ATCOs come to us from other units...most from 'busy' units such as TC and AC. Only one validated.


I would expect to undergo an assesment if I went to any airport, not just Heathrow, if I came from AC or TC (a radar only uit) - it's not surprising you had only one validation out of ten or more applicants..... Heathrow is not a special case... anyone from a radar only unit going to a tower only unit is going to find it more difficult.

DataDad,

It's very offside that they wanted you to do the radar skills side of things, though to tell the truth, I think that if you had gone ahead with it, you would definately have benefited from doind the basic area course (or 'area one') before the advanced ('area 2') course.

Unfortunately this company has a history of making bad decisions in this regard, as alluded to by Gonzo in one of his earlier posts (#43), however I still find it incredibly elitist that Heathrow hand picks student from the college who are deemed to be good enough - thereby inferring that other airports are not as challenging!!

[Gonzo]

anotherthing......

Unfortunately this company has a history of making bad decisions in this regard, as alluded to by Gonzo in one of his earlier posts (#43), however I still find it incredibly elitist that Heathrow hand picks student from the college who are deemed to be good enough - thereby inferring that other airports are not as challenging!!I'm afraid that history shows us that we have to be 'elitist'....your words not mine...

In the 'old days' when all the students going to work at airfields did the APR course, our Head of Training went down to the college, talked to instructors, sat in on a few exercises, and Heathrow generally got the pick of the bunch - i.e. those thought to be most suited to Heathrow...not necessarily the 'best'...(However, I'm convinced that I got Heathrow because I was observed whilst doing a radar fail and made a bit of a mess....they must have decided there and then to send me to a unit where I'd not train on radar!)....the 'bunch' then numbering 8-16 of the APR course.

When the courses were slashed a few years ago, and we were getting trainees who had done Basic then Aerodrome, sometimes there were only two on the aerodrome course, so we had no 'pick'. The situation seems to be slightly better now, but not by much. It's still a decision taken by NSL HQ rather than Heathrow getting what they want and everyone else getting the rest...far from it.

Before the change, the validation rate was 75%.

After the change, the validation rate was 25%.

The first lot of trainees after our tower move are training now, so I guess we'll see if the measures we've taken to redress this have worked.

I'm afraid that, in my experience of the other airports I've visited, and my friends at those units, within NATS, Heathrow is unique.

Right, tin hat on..........

[Yellow Snow]

Jeez Gonzo,

given many members of this part of Prune hate LL with a passion, regardless of the fact many of them haven't visited LL or had a beer with an LL ATCO for many years (when LL was the nasty place with the nasty rep'):}

That was a particularly brave post. I stand back and look forward to the show:E

[Gonzo]

YS, note careful use of language!

'Unique' can mean a lot of things! :E

[Yellow Snow]

I gotcha...

[SonicTPA]

Gonzo,

the opposite happened to me. I did the APR course after Area 2, which gave me an advantage over the other students. As I hadn't done aerodrome for two years, when we were given the list of available units, I chose radar units, including Heathrow Approach.

However, after watching me on radar, the head of training at EGLL decided I would be a good candidate for Heathrow tower (He said I handled busy traffic well!) so they paid no attention to my choices, and sent me to LL.

After 2 years of radar, I wasn't quite up to speed on aerodrome, which put me behind the curve. (13 different mentors, all with different standards, didn't help!) I was the first to admit that Heathrow wasn't for me, and luckily I got out. NATS seems to insist on silly postings.

Proper selection could have saved a wasted year.

Sonic
Ps, I was there while you were training!

[anotherthing]

Gonzo,

On the contrary, Heathrow is not unique.............. every unit thinks they are the busiest/best/most complex :}

[GT3]

Gonzo,

the opposite happened to me. I did the APR course after Area 2, which gave me an advantage over the other students. As I hadn't done aerodrome for two years, when we were given the list of available units, I chose radar units, including Heathrow Approach.

However, after watching me on radar, the head of training at EGLL decided I would be a good candidate for Heathrow tower (He said I handled busy traffic well!) so they paid no attention to my choices, and sent me to LL.

After 2 years of radar, I wasn't quite up to speed on aerodrome, which put me behind the curve. (13 different mentors, all with different standards, didn't help!) I was the first to admit that Heathrow wasn't for me, and luckily I got out. NATS seems to insist on silly postings.

Proper selection could have saved a wasted year.

Sonic
Ps, I was there while you were training!

Hi ;)

Shame that happened, there was one other on our course who wanted LHR along with me. He got approach and failed to vailidate......if only those two postings had been reversed????

[Point Seven]

Yeah, Bush would have been safer eh? ;)

P7