Perth out of control...

[Continental-520]

Well, I broke a new record today.

Left the bay on time at 0700 LMT, and 41 minutes later was airborne. 16 aircraft in the queue and lots of kero burning.

Assigned a taxi slot time of 0700 - 0710, which became of little relevance as 0720, 30 and 40 approached.

Rwy 03 and 06 were in use simultaneously.

Anyone out there from Perth ATC able to comment on why this sort of thing has to occur when it would be as simple as putting a start clearance requirement on the ATIS? Or even on ACD assigning a realistic taxi slot time, since it looked like 14 planes were assigned the same slot today.

I realise the infrastructure both operators and ATC alike have to work with can only bear so much, but Perth airport is becoming embarrassing...



520.

[sicilian]

Same story for us.

I'm a patient bloke but 37 minutes waiting in the same spot is a bit excessive.

[Zhaadum]

Its going to get worse in a few months. The airport is due to have a lot of works done during March/April 2008. Necessary work but still going to have an effect on movements.

Installing inset lighting on 03/21. (I assume centre line/touchdown zone or similar) Having a 800-1000m displaced Threshold, tempo PAPI, no ILS.

Resurfacing of Domestic Apron Bay 7 and GA Taxi Lane not available during Stage 2, taxi via Hotel and remote taxi lane. Disruptions for push back and taxi Bay 7,8,9.

Construction of taxiway to Threshold of 06 past where Oz Jet and AAE park. 24 ILS unavailable during works, Taxiway Juliet unavailable and shortened T/0 06 or Landing Dist 24.

Fun Times ahead for Autumn 2008 at YPPH!

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Hmmm,

How long is Pearce runway?:}

[Boomerang]

37 minutes, haha we rarely have to wait that long even at Heathrow ;) But then again when it does get busy the start delays, slot times, remote holding all add to the total delay anyway. Better add an extra 300 kg for taxi fuel. Hopefully they can sort something out for you lads.

[Capn Bloggs]

That does make a mockery of the allocated taxi time system, or was it a one-off?

I suspect that some of the problem is the "expect increased spacing for aircraft on similar SIDs" slowing down departures.

How about more controllers to manage outside radar coverage?

How about the operators putting in ADSB?

[SM4 Pirate]

Were there any NOTAMs out saying expect delays? If not why not? It's a fair question to ask.

It's clear from other threads that Perth ATC staffing is in crisis mode right now; they are 4 down in the TCU and 2 down in the TWR; then the surrounding sectors (Melbourne based) also have significant staffing issues; it all conspires to disrupt services at Perth.

Don't expect vast improvements anytime soon; if they do manage to "fix" staffing then along comes the WARP (route restructure) and probably MAESTRO and probably CTMS or similar. All this will rely on "industry" complying with the times etc. Of course there should be then an obligation for us (ATC) to comply with what we've given; or at least give you something else; rather than making you queue on a taxiway.

I heard that only one ATC was doing the West Sectors yesterday for a 2 hour period, when normally there would have been 6 or 7; the staff have reached the stretch point on OT and 'pop' no more sir 30 extra shifts a year is enough. Some have worked over 50 extra shifts.

[phew_they_missed!]

Couple of points:

SM4 - i'm not aware of any shifts on West P where we were that short...a couple of shifts where we were one short have happened but nothing too bad. West R is usually the problem staff-wise, but i can't think of any shifts in the last couple of weeks that were particularly short.

direct - 3 applicants for Perth in the end, 2 were submitted after the application period had expired. But even if all 3 are found suitable, they will still have to be released from their current positions.

Really, this is a problem of Perth traffic growing beyond it's procudures and facilities. The West P sectors have screamed for radar (or even ADSB) for years. Traffic is getting busier and busier, and add the summer thunderstorms into the equation and things quicky go pear-shaped. West R has been promised WAARP for so long it's ridiculous. There's no MAESTRO and the flow can't see aircraft until close to 160nm Perth.

This is not to say we don't all need more staff...we damn well DO need more staff....but these problems are not ATC staff related.

[pilotshorvath]

Yes, what a morning: pushback at 6:35, airborne at 7:25. :=

Apparently 13 A/C in the queue and only 'one runway in operation'. :confused:

It might have been faster to walk! :p

[Stationair8]

Good thing you weren't in a piston twin like a Queenair with a hot northerly blowing.

[MajorLemond]

Lol, mate try coming to sydney when its busy,

[Swan River Rat]

Pearce 18/36 8000ft RAF still struggling with metric concepts

I work App Dep so I can only speculate delays. We catch them as fast as the tower can fling them subject to the 10nm same sid/route that Melbourne centre requires but I suspect that the quantity of aircraft, the mix of aircraft (jet prop), the sids being designed for when the RAAF are active, one runway (I think on the day in question 06 was the only nominated dep runway) and the fact that the airport is at best a 1950s concept of what an airport should look like (I mean specifically the rwy twy design).

If the taxy slot times aren’t working you need to talk to the tower. Airservices has secretaries available to take these details. Ring the tower and ask for the ALM they’ll know who you mean. If the airport infrastructure is stuffed tell Westralia Airports.

The controllers are pedalling as fast as they can and at time faster than they should, while working for a very ordinary company.

[Richo]

Wow, am I glad we missed that one, taxied at 0546, airbourne 0553 (06) direct to RUSTY at 3000.

So today I get to give a thumbs up for the departure.

As for the arrival back at 1755, well don't get me started.

Score half a point today Perth/Mel ATC.

richo

[Monopole]

Well Richo, you wont have to worry about it anymore.. :ok:

[Continental-520]

Capn Bloggs,

It isn't usually quite that bad in my experience, (others may be able to shed more light on it though).

Having said that, it isn't a one off either. I've waited in the queue over 30 mins on a number of occasions now in the last 12 months.

As Direct no speed said, Perth is fast becoming a victim of its own success, for a multitude of reasons, and not only ATC.

I would have expected, and operators would have appreciated a notam, or even just a heads up on the ATIS advising of the anticipated delays for taxiing, so that we don't have punters and cabin crew in the back wondering why we even bothered to board. That, I wouldn't think, was too much to ask.

As for launching the aircraft, Air Services Australia ought to be ashamed of themselves. Not only from a staff shortage point of view, but also an airspace structure point of view. Surely the amount of traffic and movements at Perth Airport now is enough to justify shedding the restricted airspace at Pearce, or at the very least, moving it further north out of the way so as to not create a bottle neck up the Kajun 7, Nambu 4, Bindi 8, Brook 2 and down the Taska 7, Jenna 5, Gossi 3 and so on.

The problem can't be fixed overnight, obviously, but there are interim (and cheap) measures that can be taken to ease the pressure in the meantime.

But hey, it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys. :ugh:


520.

[Area QNH is...]

520,

If ASA could shift the restricted airspace around Pearce, it would be gone tomorrow!
However, the RAAF would have something to say, given that they have jurisdiction...

[Richo]

Hi Mono

I will still have to "Worry about it", its just that I wont have to DO IT anymore, maybe.

richo

[David Eyre]

This might be drifting a bit off-topic, but anyway....

Part of the reason (in my opinion) why they won't get many applicants for ATC roles is this little requirement:

"It will be an express condition of the offer of training and employment that trainees agree to serve at any location in Australia at which Airservices Australia has an ATC presence."

I was very interested in ATC roles, but this requirement put me off. There's all the hassle associated with relocating, finding a house (IF they are available and IF you can afford it), moving house, disrupting the kids schooling, starting from scratch with new friends, being away from extended family, etc. It may not affect single people, but it can be very offputting for people with families.

I have no desire whatsoever to leave Perth. I have young kids, all my family and friends are here, and I like living here.

If they didn't have this as a condition of employment, I would definitely be interested.

Maybe Airservices Australia needs to get with the times and be more flexible about this. With the current skills shortages across many industries, most companies have changed their job requirements to attract workers.

Look at how the mining industry has almost completely switch over to FIFO (Fly In Fly Out). They realised that workers want stability for their families and like living in the city, rather than forcing people to relocate.

Regards,
David

[westausatc]

Capn Bloggs, the operators putting in ADSB is not going to help much yet - we still have to procedurally separate ADSB tracks as can't use the 'radar' standard of 5nm. This is all going to be fixed though we keep getting assured. BTW, wasn't the next stage of ADSB implementation supposed to have occurred last June??????

Also, ADSB isn't going to help with flowing as the TCU does not have an ADSB feed so the flow is still going to have to wait for the aircraft to paint on radar before he can do his funky thing. If you want better flow outcomes, we need to have a radar somewhere north like MOG or MEK, north-east (maybe LEO but that might be too far) and east (east of ESP) - then the flow can see you all coming in from 250-300 miles out and provide a better service. Better be prepared to pay though - each one will probably cost over $15 million to install!

Ultimately, there are two reasons that those of us doing the airspace around PH have so many problems. They are Pearce and PH airport.

If we could get PEA to disappear (or even 'tilt' further out over the ocean), we would have a much more efficient airspace structure that would allow us to move more aircraft. The new airspace coming in June will help but it is still going to be very congested in certain parts (particularly to the immediate north of PH). Get rid of PEA and a route structure like that of SY becomes possible - segregated jet and prop routes inbound and outbound with feeder fixes on the inbounds - ah! the joy!

Secondly, PH airport - build more infrastructure there (parallel runways would be a great start!) and we can move more traffic - one follows the other surely as night follows day. However, rumour has it that at a recent RAPAC meeting, all the operators said to Westralia Airports, charge us more and build 03R/21L so the controllers can move more traffic. Response was, yep sounds great but that land is reserved - we can make more money out of a DFO and so are going to build a shopping centre there. HUH??????!!!!! This is from a company that has leased land for AVIATION and is not using it for AVIATION purposes - surely (if true) the federal government has a duty to step in and say 'get real you idjits - build the bloody runway!' Not holding my breath though.

Put these two things together and you have the present situation. We hate dealing with it as much as you guys but there is only so much we can do. Add to that staff shortages on our end (both enroute and in PH) and it makes life even more interesting!

[Monopole]

Westausatc and Swan River Rat,

Thanks for jumping onboard and giving us your point of view. I am sure no-one here didn't expect the 'other side to the story'.

To be brutally honest though a mockery of the slot time system was made when a/c were waiting for up to 40min after their allocated time. The same thing goes for inbound a/c who are required to hold even though they are outside of the holding period. In both cases crew has a set amount of fuel on board based on their (more often then not minimum) legal requirements. I have returned to the ramp after excessive taxi time to uplift more fuel and I have made several intermediate stops enroute due to excessive taxi time (but to be fair it was touch and go anyway on most occassions).

Some companys get charged by the clients for poor on time performance and i'm sure AsA doesn't flip the bill for this.

And finally just out of interest, why is there a bottle neck aloud to form at TWY H1 by a/c using 06 and 03. Me personally, I usually ask to cross the RWY at W and taxi via C for a L2 departure. Slightly longer in taxi but usually shorter in waiting time.

Once again I for one appreciate your input into this forum.


Mono

[SM4 Pirate]

To be brutally honest though a mockery of the slot time system was made when a/c were waiting for up to 40min after their allocated time. The same thing goes for inbound a/c who are required to hold even though they are outside of the holding period. In both cases crew has a set amount of fuel on board based on their (more often then not minimum) legal requirements. I have returned to the ramp after excessive taxi time to uplift more fuel and I have made several intermediate stops enroute due to excessive taxi time (but to be fair it was touch and go anyway on most occassions). I agree as an ATC that this isn't good enough; but make sure you complain to the right people. The CEO of ASA may be a good start. But ultimately the problems need to be 'visible'; put in CAIR (or whatever they are now) reports; Event reports, emails with specific examples etc. The upper management of ASA has a tendency to react if they get complaints and thus believe that no complaints = no problems.

Although to be fair, I think the WA situation is very visible, just not very fixable with resources.

Technology deployed in ML, SY, and BN could help; there is also a thought that long term strategic traffic management isn't worthwhile; e.g. AD, ML, CB, SY, BN to Perth flights may as well go without delay cause whatever we do we'll get wrong by the time they get on Perth Radar. This is such a narrow view, CTMS etc. could easily work as long as you implement it properly. The companies need to support it too; no point running it if they then ignore the times. Of course such long term CTMS isn't terribly accurate; so you just run it at a lower acceptance rate and that ensures no in air delays; of course that reduces throughput and efficiency, that's the trade off.

[westausatc]

Mono,

I am but a humble enroute controller (West Radar - 133.9 and soon 125.2/118.2 are my frequencies) so I have no idea about taxi delays. I agree that it is shambolic to have people get a taxi slot along with 13 others (as others have suggested happens). However, I am not blaming the tower guys for this - it is, undoubtedly like much else in AsA, the system that is probably at fault. It could be something as simple as not having enough personnel in the cabin to run this properly but management has decided to make it look like they care so they forced this on the tower crew. Like I said, not sure, but I am sure of one thing - the tower guys are doing the absolute best they can within the constraints of the system running them.

On the holding outside of the NOTAMed hours - I agree with what you say. That is why I have think having a long period of 10 mins holding NOTAMed (say 0900 PH time to 2100 PH time) so people are not caught out is the way to go. Augment this with 20-25 minutes holding NOTAMed in the peak inbound times and it will cover just about everyone for just about everything. At the same time, I know that in carrying more fuel, more fuel will be burnt for the exact same route, level, etc., which is why I think 10 minutes generally is enough.

In terms of raising complaints about the service - I fully agree with the pirate - there is no point saying anything on the frequency. The controller will just finish the transmission thinking 'w#$ker' and it will go no further. Ring up the tower and ask for the ALM - they are our new managers who will have a better idea of what happened. Still no joy, call AsA and ask to speak to the General Manager - ATC. Might get blocked by the secretary but explain the purpose of your call and if enough people do it, it will get noticed. Call the CASA field office in PH, call ATSB, call anyone else you can think of - the more who know of the problem, the more likely it will get resolved.

[flightfocus]

The PH taxi slot time is a work in progress. It was a knee jerk reaction to a growing problem. If you have any suggestions feel free to call the twr and speak to you ALM. He will be happy to have something to do :E

As anyone who visits PH regularly the airport is straining due to lack of investment and forward planning. If you want to park - hell they cater for that. We have acres of tarmac and are building acres more for parking. Sorry can't help you with the twys or Rwy though.

The J1/H1 bottleneck it due to above. The twy to the threshold will hopefully help alleviate that. BTW ATC has been suggesting that for over 3 years at least. :ugh: WAC too busy knocking down those pesky trees and building warehouses and brickworks to be worried about those pesky little planes.

It is encouraging to see the WA Planning Fashion lass finally bringing some public pressure to WAC to lift its game. Sadly it needs Fed pressure as it is crown land they are leasing from US :=

The problem with 03/06 is the crossing and catch up game that is played upwind. The only real benefit was for the BIU and BINDI SIDS getting cancelled and direct tracking.

Suggest all concerned look at the PH Airport web site and bone up on the Masterplan. Now that is the airport that we need NOW and into the future:

http://www.perthairport.com/default.aspx?MenuID=42

It looks or so flash on the net. No start lobbying for them to spend the cash they are raking in on building the bloody thing. No $50 million QF band aid. Lets catch up to the new century WAC. :mad:

[phew_they_missed!]

The same thing goes for inbound a/c who are required to hold even though they are outside of the holding period. Surely this is a problem with the NOTAM though. Alot of the changes to procedures in and out of Perth atm are a bandaid attempt to fix a gaping wound. Not to say they don't work...to a point....but they aren't exactly the long term solution.

And to reiterate what others have said...complaining on frequency is not going to get anything done. By the time this stuff happens everyone is already too busy...unless it's a real safety issue (ie...not enough fuel etc) you're better off taking this up via the phone, less stress for controllers and the message goes to someone who doesn't already know the problem ;)

[pilotshorvath]

Sorry can't help you with the twys or Rwy though.

The J1/H1 bottleneck it due to above. The twy to the threshold will hopefully help alleviate that.


One wonders why you would build a major state capital city airport and not build a taxiway to the threshold, or, alternately, the start of the TORA.

After watching 12 aircraft backtrack from H1/J1, i knew what we were going to do!:hmm:

[cac_sabre]

Ladies and Gents of PPrune, as the instigator of the Perth Taxy Slot procedure I hope that this, my first post, will answer your queries.

This procedure was initiated as a direct result of the huge delays experienced at Perth airport following the imposition of traffic metering restrictions by Melbourne Enroute (this was a safety and workload issue associated with too much traffic and not enough surveillance – radar or ADSB). On the first few mornings of the metering, Perth airport operators experienced taxi times increasing to up to 42 mins from apron to departure. (Before this 17 mins was considered a bad delay!) Further, the Perth Tower controllers were hopelessly overloaded with the sheer numbers of aircraft on the ground and all the complexities associated with runways changes and crossings that were instigated in an attempt to efficiently move the log jam of traffic. It was an accident waiting to happen and some action had to be taken.

The instigation of this procedure was as much a “knee jerk” reaction as a pilot kicking the rudder in response to an asymmetric condition… do it or die…(well we don’t die but you get the picture!)

In creating the “system” it was calculated that given the enroute restrictions, the maximum achievable departure rate was 30 per hour. We created 32 slots per hour adding the extra two to make sure the ATC system was always under “pressure” and that that there were aircraft always available at the holding point (we do not want to miss a gap for departure or arrival). Once this procedure was put in place taxi times to departure reduced to 16 mins max, 10-12 mins average. This is the way it works most of the time and besides alleviating the ATC problems it has obvious fuel burn benefits.

You ask if it’s so good why did we spend 40 mins on the ground on Tuesday? Well the reason is that we were using Runway 06 only, due excessive crosswind on runway 03. Single Runway operations on either 06 or 24 are extremely restrictive largely because of a woefully inadequate taxiway system. (In fact I believe a good argument could be made to upgrade runway 06 / 24 with a decent taxiway system before WAC commissions a parallel 21/03…. But that, as they say, is another story). A departure rate of 30 is impossible to achieve using RWY 06 only… a single arrival on RWY 06 can cause 3 departure slots to be lost. With the experience gained on 06 only days it seems we must cut available slots to 25 or lower per hour, so bear this in mind in the future when you can’t get your slot… with up to 70 planned departures within a 90 min period on the typical Tuesday morning something’s gotta give!

This thread touches on dozens of issues which make Perth operations what they are… (now don’t be rude!) Having some 36 years experience of ATC at Pearce and Perth and other places I could make a comment on all of them but frankly discussion of the issues would make for a very lengthy post indeed but as one of the other ATCs has said don’t hesitate to call an ALM in the TCU or Tower if you have an issue. I hope I can assure you that despite all the difficulties Airservices is facing at the moment, controllers are dedicated to the safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic. Safety is always number 1, the orderly and expeditious is done within the constraints of the available resources and facilitation… hence the problems.

Wal Civitico
ATC Line Manager
Perth Tower

[SM4 Pirate]

Well done Wal. Good on you for dipping your oar in, hope you don't get chastised for outing yourself. What was wrong with SY? Sorry side track.

But it does beg the question why are slots allocated on a 32 an hour (which is pressurising the system) basis if only 25 (max or so) is actually achieved on 06 only D's.

Can you 're-run' the program and make it look more realistic? Obviously if the answer is Yes, then it should be done to increase transparency, service and efficiency; and if No, what can be done to make it YES?

From this thread I'd say this is what the industry wants, given a Slot time, make it so. In Europe Slot times have a validity period for both the operators and the ATCs; we as professionals should be adopting this methodology too.

[flightfocus]

Thanks Wal - very informative.

Meanwhile back at the ranch:

[QUOTE]Perth Airport reports strong first half growth

Thursday, 24th January 2008

Perth Airport continued its strong passenger growth in the first half of 2007-08 with an increase of 13.3 per cent over the same period in 2006-07.

A total of 4,579,658 passengers were processed through Perth Airport during this period, an increase of 539,056 passengers on the same period last year.

International passenger growth stood at 16.7 per cent during the period, while domestic passenger growth of 12.1 per cent was recorded.

Perth Airport CEO Brad Geatches said the high levels of growth at Perth Airport reflected the continued powerhouse performance of the Western Australian economy.

"The increased wealth provided through Western Australia’s sustained economic growth is driving business and consumer demand for aviation services. Airlines have responded by providing more capacity on domestic and international routes, with Qantas, Emirates and Tiger Airlines each adding to the international capacity on Perth routes.

"Perth Airport also serves as a vital infrastructure asset for Western Australia’s resources sector. Our partnership with the resources industry goes from strength to strength as we continue to support growth in fly-in fly-out operations."

Mr Geatches said that the strong outlook for the Western Australian economy with its exposure to resources demand from China and north Asia meant that Perth Airport’s growth was likely to outperform other major Australian airports for the foreseeable future.

Mr Geatches added that Perth Airport’s continued growth was strengthening the business case to initiate a major expansion of airport infrastructure.

"Planning has been underway for some time now to examine options to expand Perth Airport’s terminal facilities. We are in discussions with our key airline partners to understand their operational requirements.

"In the meantime, Perth Airport continues to make improvements to existing facilities. More parking has been added to the international and domestic precincts and work is underway to join the two domestic terminals. These works are supported by a $50 million program by Qantas to upgrade its domestic terminal. Perth Airport will also shortly commence a major upgrade to the road network in the domestic precinct. These changes will supplement the major airport expansion and dramatically improve the customer experience over the next few years."

/QUOTE]

Media release from WAC. So things are on the up. Looking forward to some more car parks..... er I mean infrastructure soon then. :(

13% growth in one year. Pretty nice work if you can get it. This is growth in passengers so revenue would have risen by a greater amount as they have also increased the parking fees etc. :D

[cac_sabre]

I am thinking wooden leg, hook hand, eye patch and a cussing parrot... could be any number of my past colleagues! How are ya anyways..

Like I said we learnt about 06 only departure rate so we will cut the number of available slots when it happens again. I had to chuckle when you mentioned "rerunning the program"... mate there is no computer or science to this, its just a sheet of paper! The dynamic nature of the departure push makes it quite difficult to respond, adjust to changes and ensure no slots or opportunities are missed, every day is different some days it works better than others but we are working with the operators to tweak the system.

[SM4 Pirate]

I had to chuckle when you mentioned "rerunning the program"... mate there is no computer or science to this, its just a sheet of paper! And there I was thinking it was a CTMS type thingy. Good luck!

PS, wooden leg, eye patch, well yes, still got both hands, but the bloody parrot won't talk especially when I wears me headset, although I do hear voices every now and then.

Arrrhhhh!

[pilotdude09]

I fly in and out of Perth quite often, sometimes a few times a month (as a pax)

It is disgusting, for a major airport its a joke. The terminal facilities are dated and are inadequate for the amount of people going through.

Just the other day i flew back from a Health & Safety meeting for work, at the time there was a 744 to SYD, 743 to MEL, 767 to BNE, 717 to Kal-boulder and a flight to Karratha.
The airport was a mess!, check in was mental, security went along the back of check in down to the regional arrivals and out the door. Finally got through securtiy and then went to the QF club, knew i wouldnt get a seat but checked anyway and sure enough wasnt a seat to be found. Went downstairs and it was just as bad, not 1 single seat could be found ended up sitting against a pole as many others did.

Food facilites are a joke, not enough toilets and no seating.

This was the worst ive seen Perth Airport in a long long time, it just proved it cant cope and no matter how QF bandaid the problem a new Terminal needs to be built sooner rather than later and i hope Alanah told Westralia Airports to pull their finger out at the meeting she had the other day, as she said she wanted to make sure rail links, roads etc were all upgraded and installed well before the new terminal development. Given them a deadline of 5 years for the terminal to be operating and 7 for all the infrastruture to be put in place, but never heard anything about what was actually discussed at the meeting.

The mulit user terminal isnt much better, try being there at 5.30 in the morning!!!! NOT FUN let me assure you.

Also everytime ive flown to Perth we've been early and ended up circling and then being late :ugh: About 2 months ago we made up 30 mins due to good tail winds and we ended up circling for 45 mins even the captain said due to the "wonderful perth airport" very sarcastically :E

I hope Westralia airports comes up for a solution, and stop playing Business Park/Shopping centre Managers and get back to the real business of running a Major international airport that is going to grow and expand even further in the next few years.

Another runway and a terminal a bit larger than QF's in sydney is whats needed and a major expansion at the international terminal, love how WAC made all the general public area nice, soon as you go out 'back' its like the old days all over, just as bad as the domestic terminal.

Rant over........ :mad:

[westausatc]

pilotdude,

Is the QAN terminal a problem that QAN owns or the airport corporation? Either way, I think you are buggered when it comes to getting it fixed - the airport corp seems (as you alluded to) more intent on running the airport as a non-aviation business than using the land for aviation first, other uses second.

As I have previously said, get a better taxiway system and parallel runway put in, and those of us doing the controlling will be able to move much more metal more quickly. Then it will be up to the airlines to provide the unload/reload capacity, but there is not much I can do to help you there!

[pilotdude09]

I know you guys work your arses off, listen to you's when im bored on live atc :ooh:

I guess its all the terminals which are a joke, the international is nice but once you go 'out back' through customs its like stepping back to the late 80's early 90's hasnt changed a bit.

[Continental-520]

Thank you for that insight.

the reason is that we were using Runway 06 only, due excessive crosswind on runway 03.

I seem to recall there was some movement on 03 despite this. At least 4 departures and a couple of heavies arriving. Did the runway become active at any stage that morning during the peak period (if you can remember) or was it used on a "on request" basis by the aircraft that did?


520.

[cac_sabre]

I wasn't on that morning but I think that one or two may have asked for 03, then part way through the morning the crosswind died enough so we were able to nominate runway 03 as a duty runway... just as well as you may still be out at the HP gathering cobwebs otherwise!

One of our concerns about Perth airport is the significant impact that Runway 06 or 24 only operations have on acceptance / departure rates. The lack of suitable taxiways means that bigger gaps between arriving aircraft have to be created to enable the first aircraft to vacate the runway before the second crosses the fence. Trying to intersperse a departure between two arrivals can be extremely entertaining for all concerned:
the guy backtracking at max thrust to vacate at S
the guy backtracking and lining up at max thrust for departure and
the guy on final rockin' and rollin' in the famous Perth "washing machine" turbulence, hanging on the straps wondering if they are gonna have to go round!Honestly the genuine sounds of relief in pilots voices on first contact with SMC after they succesfully land on these days would be quite amusing if we weren't sweating ourselves.

With increasing traffic levels "06/24 only" days are going to become a major traffic management issue, increasing holding fuel is not going to be the answer.... we are working to address this issue but it will not be resolved anytime soon.

[G Limit]

Cac_Sabre...cheers for giving us your side of the story.

Not long after I moved to PH I went up the tower and spent a few hours talking with the dudes up there. They were more than welcoming (it was a weekend). Not only did I have a ball, I only then understood what they have to deal with on a day to day basis.

I highly reccommend a visit to all the frustrated folk out there..like I USED TO BE. Don't forget to bring chocky cake!! :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

we were using Runway 06 only, due excessive crosswind on runway 03

This needs to be explored further. On one occasion I requested (and got) a departure off 21 when 24 was "the only duty runway due to excessive crosswind". From memory it was only about 25kts X on 21. IMO, the ATC crosswind "limit" (I don't know what it is) especially for takeoff (ie morning scenario), is too low. 38kts is OK.:ok:

get a better taxiway system and parallel runway put in, and those of us doing the controlling will be able to move much more metal more quickly.

Dunno about that: departures are being slowed down at present due to lack of controllers outside radar coverage...

following the imposition of traffic metering restrictions by Melbourne Enroute

[cac_sabre]

ATC can not nominate a runway for use when crosswind exceeds 20kts if there is a more suitable runway... thats the rule in the ATC Manual of Air Traffic Services and echoed in the pilot bible...AIP. Some years ago, for noise abatement issues (read politics) Sydney was permitted to nominate a more noise suitable runway with up to 25 kts of crosswind... I believe this exception was removed after industry pressure. Nothing prevents a pilot from requesting a runway that ATC may not nominate BUT such a movement has potential to create major hassles in an already complex situation and may not improve the movement rate at all.
Eg an aircraft which, for traffic management reasons, ATC would prefer off 06 is given a 20 min taxy delay. Pilot says, we'll accept RWY 03 if you give us an earlier slot. This would on the face of it seem to have potential to up the departure rate but it is just as likely to create more problems.
Fact is for traffic segregation / efficiency reasons we actually want only certain the aircraft to depart from RWY 03 (BIU5 and BINDI8 SIDS). Flights departing to the east from RWY 03 are a pain in the proverbial when trying to process departures from RWY 06.... Ah 'tis a complicated business 'tis!!! Visits by pilots always welcome and appreciated, call us on phone to make arrangements... obviously the word is out about the customary chocolate cake fee! donuts are ok too, free coffee in return.

[westausatc]

Bloggs,

That is true about the restriction being the procedural (non-radar) sectors to the north and north-east of PH. However, as sabre has alluded to, the rate of movement off 06/24 only is far lower than when we can use 03/21 as well - for departures, the next departure has to backtrack to the numbers if they need full length and for arrivals, we basically double our spacing between arrivals to hand off to approach. Put taxiways in at each end of 06/24 and we will get departures off more quickly and won't have the double spacing for arrivals.

As for the extra runway, our worst times for holding are when on instrument procedures - flow has to plan three minutes between arrivals since the tower needs space to launch aircraft between the arrivals. Put in 03R/21L and one runway handles the departures and some arrivals, the other handles just arrivals - TCU acceptance rates will increase dramatically and holding will subsequently decrease. Even in the morning this will help, eg. 03 for departures. 03R for CKL/SPUDO and PEPPA SIDs, 03L for BIU, BINDI and BOLGA SIDs. Put the runways far enough apart and can have simultaneous ops, just like in SY. The traffic will move much more quickly either way.

Speaking of SY, one of the ops directors came round to us last week and mentioned that SY was planning about 850 moves that day, PH looked like about 720 moves..... So basically, PH, with its ridiculously complicated airspace and awful infrastructure, was operating at 85% or so of SY, with its segregated routes, parallel runways, relatively well-equipped terminals, etc, etc, etc...... Made us realise that we don't do that bad a job, really. Also made us realise how much better the job would be done if given the right tools.....

[Icarus2001]

Here is a link to the Perth Airport Master Plan - Ultimate Development...

http://www.perthairport.com/getfile.aspx?Type=document&ID=4169&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=1040

The planned 21L/03R appears quite short.

WAC need to be starting work on this NOW.

[Agent86]

21L looks about 2400m ok for 737/320 and below. All we need now is the approval of ..(insert any number of special interest groups) and x years of dithering and we might get somewhere.

The first thing they would need to build is a LARGE multi story carpark. Imagine combining the chaos of the current domestic parking with 2 or three large international arrival/departures:eek:

[Adamastor]

Not trying to denigrate the terrific job you guys do under trying conditions, westausatc, but SY average 800/day, PH 300/day. If you really had a day at 720 then that probably highlights that it's uneven scheduling that's making everyone's lives a misery?

[jetjockey7]

Two QF Classics broken down at the domestic terminal.
Two QF Airbuses broken down at the International.
Must have been challenging for ATC,Groundstaff, Passengers and Crew.
Biggest mess I have ever seen.
Feds were called in...pax were about to riot

[westausatc]

Adamastor,

Am not even sure those numbers are correct - just what we were told by an ops director here (he is one of the better ones so more likely to trust him!) but it is most definitely the cr@ppy scehduling of the FIFO contracts that makes life a misery. I totally understand this is NOT Skippers, Networks, QFs, etc. fault - it is BHP, Rio, Woodside, etc. demanding that all their crew change-over at the same time.

It would not surprise me to find out that our average is 300 moves/day with peaks over double that - Mon arvos, Fri mornings and weekends are generally quiet, far removed from the craziness of Tues, Wed and Thurs morning and arvos.

Maybe the FIFO contract holders need to talk to the mines about spreading out the moves to cover the whole week, not just predominantly within three days?

[west atc]

Not trying to denigrate the terrific job you guys do under trying conditions, westausatc, but SY average 800/day, PH 300/day. If you really had a day at 720 then that probably highlights that it's uneven scheduling that's making everyone's lives a misery?

300 a day sounds about right and would be a lot less when you are working Friday - Monday. Tuesday - Thursday is the "action time" for Perth and even then it is between 0530 - 0830 outbound and 0930 - 1100 inbound in the morning and then 1500 - 1700 outbound and 1830 - 2100 inbound in the evening. It is ridiculous how uneven the traffic levels are but I can't see anything being done about it in a hurry.

Maybe the FIFO contract holders need to talk to the mines about spreading out the moves to cover the whole week, not just predominantly within three days?

This has been suggested for longer than I care to remember and every time it has fallen on deaf ears. It has taken an extreme amount of holding to get the schedules during the day changed very slightly.

Oh, and by the way, expect a bad day in the west on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, the staffing for West Radar (36PH - 200PH) is not looking good. The short staff situation is finally starting to bite! :ugh:

[Monopole]

Quote:
Maybe the FIFO contract holders need to talk to the mines about spreading out the moves to cover the whole week, not just predominantly within three days?
This has been suggested for longer than I care to remember and every time it has fallen on deaf ears. It has taken an extreme amount of holding to get the schedules during the day changed very slightly.
3 of our clients changed there departure times out of Perth to be able to arrive back into Perth before the holding starts. It took me 2 hours to get back from Mt Magnet one evening (which is only a 1 hour flight). I had a mine boss on board that flight, and as soon as he was able to turn on his phone, he contacted various people and the flight departure time was changed the very next day :ok:

[Jetpipe2]

Whilst I agree that the FIFO flights fill up the skys, without them we would all be pretty quiet, as QF VB etc carry many thousands in and out of Perth for the mining communites as well.

So if we move the FIFO times are QF and VB etc going to move their flights departing to the east, as many people catch those lunch time flights home?

Whilst the Industry keeps blaming the customer I feel we are diverting the attention away from the real cause. We dont have enought ATC staff, radars or runway slots in Perth. It's not one issue but multiple ones, that all all manged by different people.

There is a peak hour on the roads when everyone wants to go to work and another in the evening when they go home, so they build the roads to suit the peak. When did Perth have its last runway commisioned? I think you'll find that they have closed more in the last 20 years than they have opened!

We seem to be happy with having airports and ATC systems that are built to handle yesterdays troughs not tommorows needs, and this and other threads are telling the customer to go at another time as being the only solution.

When are we going to wake up and realise that primary transport infrastrutucte is a public issue and not realy for the private sector.

For example would private industry have built a railway to Mandurah?

The reason we dont have more runways at airports is that it has to make a positive contribution to the bottom line of the buiseness, or they cant raise the capital.

This whole issue has been raised by ASA at a CME conference and nothing major came out of it, as every one was blaming each other. So lets stop trying to prove every one else is wrong and offer the clients the servcie they want for the price it is going to cost.

Then and only then if the customers refuses to pay the price for the times they want, they will then be forced to change times.

[that chinese fella]

Hey sabre, can I ask what workload on a daily basis do the IFR training flights ex YPJT create?

Or for that matter us pesky VFR chopper (media & others) drivers?

[cac_sabre]

Wow....you are not related to Sun Tzu are you? Talk about bowling a handgrenade!



The short answer is: The operations you describe are a significant factor on ATC workload and their ability to provide an appropriate service to other airspace users.



I doubt that answer satisfies the professionals out there but the question cannot be answered properly or convincingly without explaining the issues...your 2 line question requires pages to answer properly, you are a member of the rotary wing fraternity so I will deal with “chopper” traffic.


Perth airport is home to 3 helicopter operators, with the bulk of movements performed by Helicopters Australia and their “helitak” operations. Perth Airport infrastructure and procedures limit ATCs capacity to efficiently process these operations. Problems include:

Lack of suitable helipad real estate
Obstacles in flight paths
Lack of helicopter routes that are segregated from other airport traffic
Operations being conducted in proximity to runways where wake turbulence becomes an issue for ATC and helo pilots.
Perth Tower ATC, WAC, CASA and the operators are currently working on initiatives to address these restricting issues to streamline helicopter operations, so it wont be long before there will be significant improvements in the service provided to inbound and outbound choppers without compromising the service provided to other users. Thats the good news..


“Transient” helicopter operations in/out Perth are subject to the same limiting factors but because of their lack of familiarity it can be very difficult for ATC to process this traffic and ensure safe operations, similarly helicopter airwork operations in proximity to Perth airport can be extremely challenging to accommodate safely and without adversely affecting the operations of other airport users.

Helicopter pilots often seem incredulous that ATC cannot accommodate operations by their extremely versatile machines, so I will try to provide some insight into “our world”. There are 2 issues:

Workload

Any operation in proximity to the runway or to the extended centrelines of the runways is workload intensive for these reasons:

ATC must ensure wake turbulence separation or caution advice is provided
ATC must pass traffic information to all affected aircraft, in these days of TCAS it is important that traffic information is passed even though the aircraft are well segregated because pilots may go round based on a TCAS resolution advisory (and the paperwork associated with such events is horrendous!)
Besides this extra radio chatter, the presence of this traffic can require much extra coordination between different ATC agencies (eg tower – approach)
The presence of this traffic requires a greater proportion of the ATCs thinking, scanning and doing time, and this greater workload has great potential to, at best cause the ATC to lose a departure slot opportunity or, at worst cause a slip or error with more serious consequences.
ATCs and their supervisors have a responsibility to ensure that ATC workload is managed to ensure safe operations notwithstanding the priorities that must be applied in the allocation of services to aircraft, which leads to the second issue:

Priorities:

The Manual of Air Traffic Services and AIP list the priorities that are applied in the processing of flights:

a. with equal status:

1. scheduled commercial air transport operations;
2. non scheduled commercial air transport operations, except balloons;
3. military aircraft, except training flights;
4. aircraft engaged in the personal transport of:
a. State Governors or the Administrator of the Northern Territory;
b. State Premiers or the Chief Ministers of the Northern Territory or the Australian Capital Territory;
5. MED 2 operations; then,

b. with equal status:

1. general aviation aircraft proceeding to a primary aerodrome;
2. military and civil training flights; then,

c. other operations.


Now what priority should a number of media helicopters wishing to operate at low level in proximity to Perth airport to video tape a box containing the remains of a celebrity be given?

That’s a “c” so if the operation has potential to adversely affect higher priority flights, clearance should be withheld.

Life is never this simple … these guys are already in the air, making their requests for clearances and already contributing to ATC workload. ATCs have a high service ethic and pride in their profession, they will regularly take on traffic they should not… sometimes it seems there is as much work involved in denying a clearance and making alternative arrangements as there is in actually accommodating the request (note the word “seems”, it is false more often than not however)
One thing is for sure however, at a time when movements are increasing and every slot is precious, where the cost of fuel is high and there is a need to reduce greenhouse emissions, Air Traffic Management practises must evolve, this, like any change, is an extremely challenging task and will come at some cost.

So let’s take the media helicopter scenario again in a brave new world where hopefully, before the operation is considered / approved / undertaken, at least some of these questions will be asked:


Is it really necessary to film a box being taken out of the plane? What possible value does this have to our society?
Is it worth risking a 2 min delay to a departing 747 to accommodate this operation? (lots of fuel, lots of extra CO2)
Do you really need more than one chopper to perform the task?
Can you “share” the vision, save fuel, engine and airframe hours and go some way to saving the planet to boot?Of course ATC can only address the second point... the rest is for the industry to ponder. It seems inevitable that the priority system (for all ops not just choppers) will be applied with greater consideration to the efficient processing of higher priority flights. Many would argue this is long overdue.

[westausatc]

Jetpipe,

I said in my first post on this topic that the huge lack of infrastructure at PH airport was one of two reasons why we cannot handle more traffic - the other is PEA airspace. Fix these two things and our capacity to move traffic increases markedly.

However, barring WAC pulling their finger out and producing a new runway and taxiway system overnight and the RAAF suddenly deciding the flying is better in LM, the only way to get people moved around with a minimum of fuss is to spread the schedules over a longer period.

There are times when we have at most three aircraft on frequency for a half hour period - move another three aircraft into that timeslot from a Tues arvo and it helps everyone. Then there are times like last year when we held 40 aircraft - three minutes between arrivals means a constant arrival stream for 2 hours!

I am beginning to wonder if this may have started to happen already - this morning (Mon) was the busiest I have been with outbounds for quite a while and even ended up holding a couple inbound. Or were these just 'extras' that would otherwise have filled Tues/Wed/Thurs with more fun and frivolity? :\

On the theme from west_atc, are any of the charter companies prepared to fly through TIBA if it happens this week? Looking at the next few days, it won't take much for us (like west_atc, from West Radar btn 36 ~ 200 PH) to go TIBA and there is no way of getting to or from PH without going through our airspace. Experience says that VB and J* will fly through but QF will wait until it is over - what happens with Skippers, Network, Skywest, etc???

[westausatc]

Icarus,

What is the time frame for the master plan being implemented? And you are dead right - 03R/21L looks far too short to be useful - especially on those 42 degree days you get over there!

How are they going to fit a consolidated terminal in the middle of the airfield? There is not enough room at the moment - how is putting it all in one place going to help??????? But then, if they kept the domestic terminal where it is now, imagine the taxi times from landing 21L to the domestic side - YUK! Or to take off full-length 03R??? Even worse!

Looks like even when they try to fix things, they make a balls-up of it!

[that chinese fella]

Sabre, thanks for answering in such detail. Incredulous? Surely you jest? ;)

Funny you should mention coffin chasing, I am not looking forward to tomorrow. :\

I can assure you that I personally try to dissuade potential extended runway centreline ops for all the reasons you state, probably at the commercial expense of our company. I always ring and ask what is the least pain in the a** time to stooge around that neck of the woods and have found this is the best way. You guys do a great job IMHO especially with the multitude of 'restrictions' you have to work with.

As we fly alongside a powerline heading toward YPPH I always give a wry smile to my 'liney' when we are held for an inbound arrival. We, in our ignorance, sitting at 30 ft AGL hover in amongst the trees, muse that if we become a traffic hazard to the RPT inbound then we are all in trouble. :)

Trust me when I say that the 3 questions you pose are way out of my juristiction but I concur with your sentiment. There is pressure from ground based sources to acquire the 'money shot'.

Cheers & Beers

TCF

[cac_sabre]

"As we fly alongside a powerline heading toward YPPH I always give a wry smile to my 'liney' when we are held for an inbound arrival. We, in our ignorance, sitting at 30 ft AGL hover in amongst the trees, muse that if we become a traffic hazard to the RPT inbound then we are all in trouble. http://2.1.1.5/www.pprune.orgg/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif"

I havent figured out how to do that blue quote box thingie so I just did a cut and paste!

About 15 years ago as a result of experience with helicopter power line washing ops, I as an approach controller made exactly the same comments and was able to get a proposal up to create a new separation standard to facilitate these flights. A new separation standard was created which basically said that if a helicopter was operating at less than a certain number of ft AGL (I cant remember the standard) it was deemed to be separated with other flights.

About 5 years ago this very useful "standard" was removed from the books, the information I received from the head ATC at the time was that RAAF representatives involved with procedures review didnt see a need for it and proposed that it be removed, other people not knowing any better agreed.

If you believe your operations are being unnecessarily affected why dont you contact a local ATC manager type and work together to try and get it back in the books?

[Monopole]

I havent figured out how to do that blue quote box thingie so I just did a cut and paste!
cac_sabre when you reply to a post click the QUOTE tag that you will find just above the text box. Click on it and then copy and past what you want in the quote box.

With the amount of time you ATCers are starting to spend on Pprune I am sure you will work it out before long.........




Busy my @rse............................... :}:}:E:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

helicopter power line washing ops
I alway thought flying helicopters was dangerous - now I know why! :eek:

PS: To put a quote in a box, copy the text to the clipboard, open up the reply window, click on the speech bubble icon called "Wrap quote tags..." then hit Paste. :ok:

[cac_sabre]

Busy my @rse............................... http://2.1.1.2/www.pprune.orgg/forums/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://2.1.1.2/www.pprune.orgg/forums/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://2.1.1.4/www.pprune.orgg/forums/images/smilies/evil.gifhttp://2.1.1.2/www.pprune.orgg/forums/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Hey I think I did it!

Like I said I never used to log in to this until colleagues at work told me we were "copping some stick", I felt I had to respond... then you guys keep asking questions...

[that chinese fella]

To be honest the 3-4 times it affects us on the line is not worthy of any changes, it was just an example. The bigger problem is probably at your end when we pop in and out of Radar and LOS VHF coverage coming thru the hills and the distraction it causes via 'VH-ABC we dont have you on radar now.....'

We do maintain a close liasion with ATC (I have YPPH TCU on speed dial!) and have found a helpful ear but again I think you guys are hamstrung by your own rules in many respects.

Cheers

TCF

[that chinese fella]

Hey Sabre,

In light of your day-early, pre-emptive, dark comments re celebs arriving in boxes, can I deduce that any 15 minute delays in clearance for airwork of same are co-incidental? :oh:

Too many decoys anyway.

TCF

[Capt Wally]

........hey 'cac' can I get a clearance via PPRUNE?:}..............might cut out da middle man:-)

CW:ok:

[Green on, Go!]

Thread drift on...

About 15 years ago as a result of experience with helicopter power line washing ops, I as an approach controller made exactly the same comments and was able to get a proposal up to create a new separation standard to facilitate these flights. A new separation standard was created which basically said that if a helicopter was operating at less than a certain number of ft AGL (I cant remember the standard) it was deemed to be separated with other flights.

About 5 years ago this very useful "standard" was removed from the books, the information I received from the head ATC at the time was that RAAF representatives involved with procedures review didnt see a need for it and proposed that it be removed, other people not knowing any better agreed.


Was only talking about this 'standard' today. The 'standard' was appropriately qualified helicopters operating below 300FT AGL outside 4NM of all thresholds could be disregarded when processing airport traffic.

The urban myth is that a controller (who is currently at YPEA) was under his annual check in YBTL were there are some very significant terrain issues. A helicopter was operating on a 1700FT-ish spot height, cleared not above 300AGL. The controller cleared a couple of jets for a TACAN approach which was very much in conflict with the helo. The checker threw her clipboard in the air, screamed, yanked the controller, etc. The controller was all 'What? I'm using this standard. it's in the book!!'. They plotted it out and discovered that there was less than 500FT separation, not sure how much laterally. Soon after that, RAAF requested the standard be removed. I was personally mortified as I used it most days of the week...

...Thread drift off.

[cac_sabre]

This Tuesday morning saw Perth Airport operations on RWY 06 due to strong easterlies and excessive crosswind on RWY 03 again.

Based on the experience of the day that caused this thread to start, Perth Tower reduced the number of available slots for departure from 32 to 26 per hour. (For "RWY 06 only" operations)

This meant that the whole morning departure "push" lasted about 20 mins longer than usual and many aircraft were significantly delayed passed their preferred taxy time.

However times for commencement of taxy to departure averaged 10 mins with a 17 min peak.

Instead of having 16 aeroplanes at the holding point and taxiways burning fuel going nowhere, we had a maximum of 8, which was manageable but provided enough airframes to maintain a steady departure flow.

Tomorrow morning looks like another 06 only day, so we will be using the "formula" again to test its validity.

[westausatc]

Oh goody! Lots more fun then!

And thanks to you guys in the TCU for not making us give the 'double' spacing between arrivals! :ok: It's a huge help!

[Continental-520]

It all seemed to work a bit better on Tuesday. Good work to the crew organising that!

Was the amount of traffic comparable to a few Tuesdays ago when we waited 42mins?


520

[cac_sabre]

This Tuesday morning's push numbered 58, woulda been more but 2-3 cancelled. "Black" Tuesday was 59 from memory.

Please be aware however that its not a precise "science" every day is different, route mix, aircraft type mix and the order they "present" all are a factor in how smoothly or otherwise it goes.

Other things that help are:

advise as early as possible if you cant make your slot... we will try and assign it to another aircraft
if you haven't got the slot you want, listen out after being assigned your clearance and slot and we will call you if an earlier one becomes available due a u/s whateverThe next step that could add an estimated up to extra 10% efficiency would be to get airlines to avoid planning several flights in a "row" that will fly on the same SID. Eg this morning we had 6 Spudo departures in a row, this is a loss of 6 mins (3 slots) in the hour. Haven't had any luck there, the vagaries of airline ops / customer demands make this difficult to achieve, plus it would require coordination and cooperation between competing operators to be most effective.

[Jetpipe2]

CAC_sabre

If sequencing 6 aircraft is difficult on the same SID why not give then the Radar Deprture and use that to fix the problem?

Whilst they are all heading in roughly the same direction, they aren't all going to the same spot, so once clear of the crossing tracks and with GPS seperation standards it would be direct to wherever?

After all does ATC asks QF, VB etc not to fly SY - ML at the same time?

[Quokka]

Jetpipe2,

The idea of using RADAR Departures was suggested in 2006... and the answer was no.

[cac_sabre]

If sequencing 6 aircraft is difficult on the same SID why not give then the Radar Departure and use that to fix the problem?

SIDs are established for a number of reasons including noise abatement and traffic management. In less complicated times approach / departure controllers would shot-gun the morning departure burst through every point of the compass using radar departures, it was efficient and dare I say fun!. As traffic numbers increased, larger aircraft were used and the community started to object to the aircraft "noise nuisance" , Air Traffic Management practices had to change.

I expect this is the primary reason for the Radar Departure not being used more often, maybe the TCU guys could provide more insight into the issue.

[Led Zep]

Ok, what was the spanner thrown in the works this morning? :} Jeeze I'm glad I'm not in air traffic control, hats off to the lady who was on 121.7 this morning...better you than me!
We ended up having a laugh about it, no harm done, etc etc and ask only as we had never heard it so congested, it was bad even for a Tuesday.

[Starts with P]

A girl in Perth Tower.... Probably was "Spanna" :ok:

[Skystar320]

on all indication is that she is something to 'gawk' at

[lifestyler]

Whats your "indication" skystar320 ? Do you know the girl ? I do she's a top chick, a great controller and a friend of mine...

Give the girl more respect than that

[Ejector]

But Australia is the lucky country. 3rd world service with 1st word cost.

enjoy it boys and girls :eek:

[general disaray]

speaking of which whatever happened to spanna haven't heard her on the radio in a while she quit or get shipped off somewhere else? I say bring her back we need something to brighten up our mornings.......

[ROH111]

On holidays...

Last I knew, Thailand and other random places - hunting!

[andrewr]

In creating the “system” it was calculated that given the enroute restrictions, the maximum achievable departure rate was 30 per hour. We created 32 slots per hour adding the extra two to make sure the ATC system was always under “pressure”This sounds like a queue designed by an accountant not a mathematician. Anyone who has even a little queuing theory will see that this creates a queue where the wait time increases towards infinity until the arrival (aircraft ready to depart) rate drops below 30. Close to 30 the wait time will still be very long as you have no capacity to catch up after any delay.

As I was reading this I was guessing that maybe 25/hour would be about the limit, if things were well organised - then read further down and found that was indeed the case.

Rather than experimenting, why not get someone who knows queuing theory to do the maths? It is a pretty well studied and understood area. An expert should be able to look at the stats and give you charts showing slots vs. utilization vs. average wait time. They can even show you the differences in wait time with designated slots, clustered arrivals or random arrivals.

[Gundog01]

Sounds like a doctors surgery taking bookings. 10 min per patient = 7 patients per hour?? And i get annoyed waiting for 7 mile ILS traffic to land at TVL. Cant say i miss Perth.

[cac_sabre]

If we allocated 25 slots per hour on most mornings we would unnecessarily delay between 3 and 6 flights.
When aeroplanes are servicable, self loading freight has turned up on time, aircraft taxy on time and in a good order, we can punch out 32 per hour. We do reduce the slots available when we are reduced to single runway ops or when weather precludes the use of tower visual separation for departures.
I am enough of a mathematician to be fairly confident that say by having 2 too many slots allocated per hour that in the 2 hour long departure rush, the overflow in the queue will not even come close to infinity... more like 4
The same technique is used in Sydney for the management of CTMS based arrival slots eg in a particular runway configuration and cloud base the achievable acceptance rate is "X" but X plus 2 slots are made available, once again to ensure a slot does not go unfilled.

Anyone have a better management strategy I'd be glad to hear it

[Monopole]

Anyone have a better management strategy I'd be glad to hear it CTAF(R) :p:p:p:E:E

[andrewr]

I thought infinity was a big numberI did say until the rate drops below 30/hour. The point is that delays grow and multiply until there is slack in the system.

I am enough of a mathematician to be fairly confident that say by having 2 too many slots allocated per hour that in the 2 hour long departure rush, the overflow in the queue will not even come close to infinity... more like 4By your maths, after the first hour, the maximum wait is 4 minutes, after 2 hours the maximum wait is 8 minutes. If you are seeing delays longer than that, maybe the maths is more complicated?

Queue maths is complicated enough that I can't actually remember how to do the equations. I do remember the principles e.g. the general relationship between arrival rate, service rate and wait time. It can also account for the fact that aeroplanes aren't always serviceable, self loading freight don't always turn up on time, and aircraft don't always taxy on time and in good order.

If we allocated 25 slots per hour on most mornings we would unnecessarily delay between 3 and 6 flights.Not necessarily. You might find you can have exactly the same number of flights depart, but with reduced average waiting time. A queue of 10 doesn't improve the departure rate over a queue of 3. (Of course calculations will probably give a different number, 25 just looked an "about right" number to me.)

[flog]

Google "Erlang".

The principles were developed for call traffic in telecommunications but the same principles apply to ATC - i.e. volume per hour, wait expectations, blocking (clearance not available), etc.

Service levels (i.e. X% of target within Y seconds/minutes) do not fail in a linear fashion, they fall off a cliff. For example you could be happily meeting a service level and then one little delay will cause a complete cluster fluck as it pushes the math over the edge.

Actually thinking about this - does anyone have traffic arrival data for ATC at Perth (not just volumes but actual times and the time from contact to clear of rwy if it exists). I'm going to run a little simulation and apply some of the optimisation algorithims we use here and see what it tells us.

[myshoutcaptain]

This morning was much more exciting ... I look forward to the Discovery series capturing ramp activities. :}

Airport rush begins at 5.30am
11th August 2009, 6:00 WST

It may be a biting 3C at 5am but the heat is on at Perth Airport to prepare more than 70 aircraft for their missions to deliver thousands of passengers across the State and around the world.

Hundreds of staff working in one of the world’s busiest workplaces load bags and catering, tow, marshal and fuel aircraft.

Engineers meticulously perform last-minute checks and pilots complete a final walk-around of their aircraft, which sparkle under the floodlights.

Tuesday morning is the ultimate rush hour at Perth Airport.

In the 2½ hours from 5.30am, those 70 aircraft will depart on a day where there will be 457 arrivals and departures.

A few of Tuesday morning’s destinations are household names, most are not. Resource sites Barimunya, Brockman 2, West Angelas, Fortescue Dave Forrest, Jundee, Nifty, Granny Smith, Lawlers, Darlot, Plutonic, Golden Grove, Coondewanna and Murrin Murrin are just some of the names on the departure boards. The overnight chill means that no aircraft is going anywhere without a thorough ice check. Skywest’s duty engineering manager Gary Windsor uses a scissor lift to examine each of the airline’s eight Fokker 100 tail assemblies and that task is replicated by a host of airlines around the airport.

In fact, engineers have been working through the night performing a range of tasks on the fleet of more than 100 aircraft that call Perth Airport home.

And that home is not for the faint-hearted. Catering trucks, tugs pulling baggage carts and containers, aircraft tugs, sanitary carts, engineering equipment, fuelling trucks and, of course, taxiing aircraft, all travelling at varying speeds, make it one of the world’s most dangerous workplaces right up there with the deck of a US aircraft carrier or catching Alaskan king crabs.

Aviation has the highest loss of work days in the industrialised world and aviation’s inability to improve tarmac safety stands in stark contrast to its successes in most other areas of operations.

A recent worldwide study places the annual cost in repairs, medical bills, lost time for people and aircraft at some $7 billion. A major cause of ramp injuries and damage is the pressure to get flights out on time and not miss critical take-off slots.

However, at Perth Airport, while the pace is as crisp as the air, it is not reckless.

“Training and dedication are the keys,” says Skywest Airlines managing director Hugh Davin. “At Perth Airport the staff are passionate and proud of what they do — and it shows.”

And they process 9.73 million passengers a year, which makes West Australians possibly the world’s most air minded. It is double the number of trips on average per person than in the US — the world’s largest and most mature aviation market.

The resource industry is the major driver for the need to travel. However, the friends and relatives market is significant because, according to Perth Airport, only 24 per cent of West Australians were born in the State, with 34 per cent born overseas.

It’s now 5.32am.

“Foxtrot November Charlie push back approved.”

With that air traffic control instruction, a tug eases a Skywest Fokker 100, registered VH-FNC, back to be towed for an engine start position well away from the other aircraft.

Destination: West Angelas, a minesite nestled between Newman and Paraburdoo.

Two minutes later, a Cobham BAe 146-300, November Juliet November, engines running eases forward to taxi for Runway 21 for Coondewanna, which is close to West Angelas.

Most of these aircraft operate long hours.

Victor Yankee Golf, a Boeing 737-800 in Qantas colours, kicks off the day with a Kalgoorlie return followed by a Karratha return before heading to Brisbane for a well-earned rest.

Aircraft are on the move across the airport, from seven terminals, and as soon as one departs another is towed in to accept its precious cargo.

Relief is on its way in the form of Terminal WA, a purpose-built low cost and regional airline facility next to the international terminal that will consolidate many of the airport’s operations.
GEOFFREY THOMAS

[XRlent100]

Was exciting this morning, 35 min taxi with 12-13 holding behind. The whole of taxiway A was lined up with aircraft which looked pretty cool. Maybe nothing for you Dubai, Hong Kong etc types but very exciting for us sleepy backwater Perth types.

[Mecarsa Bitrusty]

Try Dubai at 530 am, or Heathrow any time. Had a three hour slot time delay last week, number 57 to push.

380 dude

What series of flight sim do you use?

[kimberleyEx]

I particularly liked GT's article where Perth Ramp is up there with a US aircraft carrier!

I didnt realise Perth Twr & App could launch aircraft as fast as a Aircraft Carrier? Or Land them as fast!

Good beat up GT!

K-Ex

[Starts with P]

ps Is Spanna ex RAAF?
Nope. Just ASA.

[Led Zep]

Never mind a new terminal, where is the parallel runway?? Oh, about where the Coles depot is. And Officeworks. And the rest of "Transkew" or by whatever trendy name it is known by.:rolleyes:

[tomcat264]

Pick an earlier slot lol There is all kaos from 6am and ony 1 or 2 ACFT before 6am. There is nothing to stop operators for scheduling earlier flights.

[Led Zep]

Yes there is, and that'd be the mining companies.