Perth out of control...
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Perth out of control...
Well, I broke a new record today.
Left the bay on time at 0700 LMT, and 41 minutes later was airborne. 16 aircraft in the queue and lots of kero burning.
Assigned a taxi slot time of 0700 - 0710, which became of little relevance as 0720, 30 and 40 approached.
Rwy 03 and 06 were in use simultaneously.
Anyone out there from Perth ATC able to comment on why this sort of thing has to occur when it would be as simple as putting a start clearance requirement on the ATIS? Or even on ACD assigning a realistic taxi slot time, since it looked like 14 planes were assigned the same slot today.
I realise the infrastructure both operators and ATC alike have to work with can only bear so much, but Perth airport is becoming embarrassing...
520.
Left the bay on time at 0700 LMT, and 41 minutes later was airborne. 16 aircraft in the queue and lots of kero burning.
Assigned a taxi slot time of 0700 - 0710, which became of little relevance as 0720, 30 and 40 approached.
Rwy 03 and 06 were in use simultaneously.
Anyone out there from Perth ATC able to comment on why this sort of thing has to occur when it would be as simple as putting a start clearance requirement on the ATIS? Or even on ACD assigning a realistic taxi slot time, since it looked like 14 planes were assigned the same slot today.
I realise the infrastructure both operators and ATC alike have to work with can only bear so much, but Perth airport is becoming embarrassing...
520.
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Its going to get worse in a few months. The airport is due to have a lot of works done during March/April 2008. Necessary work but still going to have an effect on movements.
Installing inset lighting on 03/21. (I assume centre line/touchdown zone or similar) Having a 800-1000m displaced Threshold, tempo PAPI, no ILS.
Resurfacing of Domestic Apron Bay 7 and GA Taxi Lane not available during Stage 2, taxi via Hotel and remote taxi lane. Disruptions for push back and taxi Bay 7,8,9.
Construction of taxiway to Threshold of 06 past where Oz Jet and AAE park. 24 ILS unavailable during works, Taxiway Juliet unavailable and shortened T/0 06 or Landing Dist 24.
Fun Times ahead for Autumn 2008 at YPPH!
Installing inset lighting on 03/21. (I assume centre line/touchdown zone or similar) Having a 800-1000m displaced Threshold, tempo PAPI, no ILS.
Resurfacing of Domestic Apron Bay 7 and GA Taxi Lane not available during Stage 2, taxi via Hotel and remote taxi lane. Disruptions for push back and taxi Bay 7,8,9.
Construction of taxiway to Threshold of 06 past where Oz Jet and AAE park. 24 ILS unavailable during works, Taxiway Juliet unavailable and shortened T/0 06 or Landing Dist 24.
Fun Times ahead for Autumn 2008 at YPPH!
37 minutes, haha we rarely have to wait that long even at Heathrow 
But then again when it does get busy the start delays, slot times, remote holding all add to the total delay anyway. Better add an extra 300 kg for taxi fuel. Hopefully they can sort something out for you lads.
But then again when it does get busy the start delays, slot times, remote holding all add to the total delay anyway. Better add an extra 300 kg for taxi fuel. Hopefully they can sort something out for you lads.
That does make a mockery of the allocated taxi time system, or was it a one-off?
I suspect that some of the problem is the "expect increased spacing for aircraft on similar SIDs" slowing down departures.
How about more controllers to manage outside radar coverage?
How about the operators putting in ADSB?
I suspect that some of the problem is the "expect increased spacing for aircraft on similar SIDs" slowing down departures.
How about more controllers to manage outside radar coverage?
How about the operators putting in ADSB?
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Notams?
Were there any NOTAMs out saying expect delays? If not why not? It's a fair question to ask.
It's clear from other threads that Perth ATC staffing is in crisis mode right now; they are 4 down in the TCU and 2 down in the TWR; then the surrounding sectors (Melbourne based) also have significant staffing issues; it all conspires to disrupt services at Perth.
Don't expect vast improvements anytime soon; if they do manage to "fix" staffing then along comes the WARP (route restructure) and probably MAESTRO and probably CTMS or similar. All this will rely on "industry" complying with the times etc. Of course there should be then an obligation for us (ATC) to comply with what we've given; or at least give you something else; rather than making you queue on a taxiway.
I heard that only one ATC was doing the West Sectors yesterday for a 2 hour period, when normally there would have been 6 or 7; the staff have reached the stretch point on OT and 'pop' no more sir 30 extra shifts a year is enough. Some have worked over 50 extra shifts.
It's clear from other threads that Perth ATC staffing is in crisis mode right now; they are 4 down in the TCU and 2 down in the TWR; then the surrounding sectors (Melbourne based) also have significant staffing issues; it all conspires to disrupt services at Perth.
Don't expect vast improvements anytime soon; if they do manage to "fix" staffing then along comes the WARP (route restructure) and probably MAESTRO and probably CTMS or similar. All this will rely on "industry" complying with the times etc. Of course there should be then an obligation for us (ATC) to comply with what we've given; or at least give you something else; rather than making you queue on a taxiway.
I heard that only one ATC was doing the West Sectors yesterday for a 2 hour period, when normally there would have been 6 or 7; the staff have reached the stretch point on OT and 'pop' no more sir 30 extra shifts a year is enough. Some have worked over 50 extra shifts.
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Couple of points:
SM4 - i'm not aware of any shifts on West P where we were that short...a couple of shifts where we were one short have happened but nothing too bad. West R is usually the problem staff-wise, but i can't think of any shifts in the last couple of weeks that were particularly short.
direct - 3 applicants for Perth in the end, 2 were submitted after the application period had expired. But even if all 3 are found suitable, they will still have to be released from their current positions.
Really, this is a problem of Perth traffic growing beyond it's procudures and facilities. The West P sectors have screamed for radar (or even ADSB) for years. Traffic is getting busier and busier, and add the summer thunderstorms into the equation and things quicky go pear-shaped. West R has been promised WAARP for so long it's ridiculous. There's no MAESTRO and the flow can't see aircraft until close to 160nm Perth.
This is not to say we don't all need more staff...we damn well DO need more staff....but these problems are not ATC staff related.
SM4 - i'm not aware of any shifts on West P where we were that short...a couple of shifts where we were one short have happened but nothing too bad. West R is usually the problem staff-wise, but i can't think of any shifts in the last couple of weeks that were particularly short.
direct - 3 applicants for Perth in the end, 2 were submitted after the application period had expired. But even if all 3 are found suitable, they will still have to be released from their current positions.
Really, this is a problem of Perth traffic growing beyond it's procudures and facilities. The West P sectors have screamed for radar (or even ADSB) for years. Traffic is getting busier and busier, and add the summer thunderstorms into the equation and things quicky go pear-shaped. West R has been promised WAARP for so long it's ridiculous. There's no MAESTRO and the flow can't see aircraft until close to 160nm Perth.
This is not to say we don't all need more staff...we damn well DO need more staff....but these problems are not ATC staff related.
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Yes, what a morning: pushback at 6:35, airborne at 7:25. 
Apparently 13 A/C in the queue and only 'one runway in operation'.
It might have been faster to walk!
Apparently 13 A/C in the queue and only 'one runway in operation'.
It might have been faster to walk!
Last edited by pilotshorvath; 23rd Jan 2008 at 07:49. Reason: grammar
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Pearce 18/36 8000ft RAF still struggling with metric concepts
I work App Dep so I can only speculate delays. We catch them as fast as the tower can fling them subject to the 10nm same sid/route that Melbourne centre requires but I suspect that the quantity of aircraft, the mix of aircraft (jet prop), the sids being designed for when the RAAF are active, one runway (I think on the day in question 06 was the only nominated dep runway) and the fact that the airport is at best a 1950s concept of what an airport should look like (I mean specifically the rwy twy design).
If the taxy slot times aren’t working you need to talk to the tower. Airservices has secretaries available to take these details. Ring the tower and ask for the ALM they’ll know who you mean. If the airport infrastructure is stuffed tell Westralia Airports.
The controllers are pedalling as fast as they can and at time faster than they should, while working for a very ordinary company.
I work App Dep so I can only speculate delays. We catch them as fast as the tower can fling them subject to the 10nm same sid/route that Melbourne centre requires but I suspect that the quantity of aircraft, the mix of aircraft (jet prop), the sids being designed for when the RAAF are active, one runway (I think on the day in question 06 was the only nominated dep runway) and the fact that the airport is at best a 1950s concept of what an airport should look like (I mean specifically the rwy twy design).
If the taxy slot times aren’t working you need to talk to the tower. Airservices has secretaries available to take these details. Ring the tower and ask for the ALM they’ll know who you mean. If the airport infrastructure is stuffed tell Westralia Airports.
The controllers are pedalling as fast as they can and at time faster than they should, while working for a very ordinary company.
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Wow, am I glad we missed that one, taxied at 0546, airbourne 0553 (06) direct to RUSTY at 3000.
So today I get to give a thumbs up for the departure.
As for the arrival back at 1755, well don't get me started.
Score half a point today Perth/Mel ATC.
richo
So today I get to give a thumbs up for the departure.
As for the arrival back at 1755, well don't get me started.
Score half a point today Perth/Mel ATC.
richo
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Not a one off...
Capn Bloggs,
It isn't usually quite that bad in my experience, (others may be able to shed more light on it though).
Having said that, it isn't a one off either. I've waited in the queue over 30 mins on a number of occasions now in the last 12 months.
As Direct no speed said, Perth is fast becoming a victim of its own success, for a multitude of reasons, and not only ATC.
I would have expected, and operators would have appreciated a notam, or even just a heads up on the ATIS advising of the anticipated delays for taxiing, so that we don't have punters and cabin crew in the back wondering why we even bothered to board. That, I wouldn't think, was too much to ask.
As for launching the aircraft, Air Services Australia ought to be ashamed of themselves. Not only from a staff shortage point of view, but also an airspace structure point of view. Surely the amount of traffic and movements at Perth Airport now is enough to justify shedding the restricted airspace at Pearce, or at the very least, moving it further north out of the way so as to not create a bottle neck up the Kajun 7, Nambu 4, Bindi 8, Brook 2 and down the Taska 7, Jenna 5, Gossi 3 and so on.
The problem can't be fixed overnight, obviously, but there are interim (and cheap) measures that can be taken to ease the pressure in the meantime.
But hey, it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.
520.
It isn't usually quite that bad in my experience, (others may be able to shed more light on it though).
Having said that, it isn't a one off either. I've waited in the queue over 30 mins on a number of occasions now in the last 12 months.
As Direct no speed said, Perth is fast becoming a victim of its own success, for a multitude of reasons, and not only ATC.
I would have expected, and operators would have appreciated a notam, or even just a heads up on the ATIS advising of the anticipated delays for taxiing, so that we don't have punters and cabin crew in the back wondering why we even bothered to board. That, I wouldn't think, was too much to ask.
As for launching the aircraft, Air Services Australia ought to be ashamed of themselves. Not only from a staff shortage point of view, but also an airspace structure point of view. Surely the amount of traffic and movements at Perth Airport now is enough to justify shedding the restricted airspace at Pearce, or at the very least, moving it further north out of the way so as to not create a bottle neck up the Kajun 7, Nambu 4, Bindi 8, Brook 2 and down the Taska 7, Jenna 5, Gossi 3 and so on.
The problem can't be fixed overnight, obviously, but there are interim (and cheap) measures that can be taken to ease the pressure in the meantime.
But hey, it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.
520.
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520,
If ASA could shift the restricted airspace around Pearce, it would be gone tomorrow!
However, the RAAF would have something to say, given that they have jurisdiction...
If ASA could shift the restricted airspace around Pearce, it would be gone tomorrow!
However, the RAAF would have something to say, given that they have jurisdiction...
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This might be drifting a bit off-topic, but anyway....
Part of the reason (in my opinion) why they won't get many applicants for ATC roles is this little requirement:
"It will be an express condition of the offer of training and employment that trainees agree to serve at any location in Australia at which Airservices Australia has an ATC presence."
I was very interested in ATC roles, but this requirement put me off. There's all the hassle associated with relocating, finding a house (IF they are available and IF you can afford it), moving house, disrupting the kids schooling, starting from scratch with new friends, being away from extended family, etc. It may not affect single people, but it can be very offputting for people with families.
I have no desire whatsoever to leave Perth. I have young kids, all my family and friends are here, and I like living here.
If they didn't have this as a condition of employment, I would definitely be interested.
Maybe Airservices Australia needs to get with the times and be more flexible about this. With the current skills shortages across many industries, most companies have changed their job requirements to attract workers.
Look at how the mining industry has almost completely switch over to FIFO (Fly In Fly Out). They realised that workers want stability for their families and like living in the city, rather than forcing people to relocate.
Regards,
David
Part of the reason (in my opinion) why they won't get many applicants for ATC roles is this little requirement:
"It will be an express condition of the offer of training and employment that trainees agree to serve at any location in Australia at which Airservices Australia has an ATC presence."
I was very interested in ATC roles, but this requirement put me off. There's all the hassle associated with relocating, finding a house (IF they are available and IF you can afford it), moving house, disrupting the kids schooling, starting from scratch with new friends, being away from extended family, etc. It may not affect single people, but it can be very offputting for people with families.
I have no desire whatsoever to leave Perth. I have young kids, all my family and friends are here, and I like living here.
If they didn't have this as a condition of employment, I would definitely be interested.
Maybe Airservices Australia needs to get with the times and be more flexible about this. With the current skills shortages across many industries, most companies have changed their job requirements to attract workers.
Look at how the mining industry has almost completely switch over to FIFO (Fly In Fly Out). They realised that workers want stability for their families and like living in the city, rather than forcing people to relocate.
Regards,
David
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Capn Bloggs, the operators putting in ADSB is not going to help much yet - we still have to procedurally separate ADSB tracks as can't use the 'radar' standard of 5nm. This is all going to be fixed though we keep getting assured. BTW, wasn't the next stage of ADSB implementation supposed to have occurred last June??????
Also, ADSB isn't going to help with flowing as the TCU does not have an ADSB feed so the flow is still going to have to wait for the aircraft to paint on radar before he can do his funky thing. If you want better flow outcomes, we need to have a radar somewhere north like MOG or MEK, north-east (maybe LEO but that might be too far) and east (east of ESP) - then the flow can see you all coming in from 250-300 miles out and provide a better service. Better be prepared to pay though - each one will probably cost over $15 million to install!
Ultimately, there are two reasons that those of us doing the airspace around PH have so many problems. They are Pearce and PH airport.
If we could get PEA to disappear (or even 'tilt' further out over the ocean), we would have a much more efficient airspace structure that would allow us to move more aircraft. The new airspace coming in June will help but it is still going to be very congested in certain parts (particularly to the immediate north of PH). Get rid of PEA and a route structure like that of SY becomes possible - segregated jet and prop routes inbound and outbound with feeder fixes on the inbounds - ah! the joy!
Secondly, PH airport - build more infrastructure there (parallel runways would be a great start!) and we can move more traffic - one follows the other surely as night follows day. However, rumour has it that at a recent RAPAC meeting, all the operators said to Westralia Airports, charge us more and build 03R/21L so the controllers can move more traffic. Response was, yep sounds great but that land is reserved - we can make more money out of a DFO and so are going to build a shopping centre there. HUH??????!!!!! This is from a company that has leased land for AVIATION and is not using it for AVIATION purposes - surely (if true) the federal government has a duty to step in and say 'get real you idjits - build the bloody runway!' Not holding my breath though.
Put these two things together and you have the present situation. We hate dealing with it as much as you guys but there is only so much we can do. Add to that staff shortages on our end (both enroute and in PH) and it makes life even more interesting!
Also, ADSB isn't going to help with flowing as the TCU does not have an ADSB feed so the flow is still going to have to wait for the aircraft to paint on radar before he can do his funky thing. If you want better flow outcomes, we need to have a radar somewhere north like MOG or MEK, north-east (maybe LEO but that might be too far) and east (east of ESP) - then the flow can see you all coming in from 250-300 miles out and provide a better service. Better be prepared to pay though - each one will probably cost over $15 million to install!
Ultimately, there are two reasons that those of us doing the airspace around PH have so many problems. They are Pearce and PH airport.
If we could get PEA to disappear (or even 'tilt' further out over the ocean), we would have a much more efficient airspace structure that would allow us to move more aircraft. The new airspace coming in June will help but it is still going to be very congested in certain parts (particularly to the immediate north of PH). Get rid of PEA and a route structure like that of SY becomes possible - segregated jet and prop routes inbound and outbound with feeder fixes on the inbounds - ah! the joy!
Secondly, PH airport - build more infrastructure there (parallel runways would be a great start!) and we can move more traffic - one follows the other surely as night follows day. However, rumour has it that at a recent RAPAC meeting, all the operators said to Westralia Airports, charge us more and build 03R/21L so the controllers can move more traffic. Response was, yep sounds great but that land is reserved - we can make more money out of a DFO and so are going to build a shopping centre there. HUH??????!!!!! This is from a company that has leased land for AVIATION and is not using it for AVIATION purposes - surely (if true) the federal government has a duty to step in and say 'get real you idjits - build the bloody runway!' Not holding my breath though.
Put these two things together and you have the present situation. We hate dealing with it as much as you guys but there is only so much we can do. Add to that staff shortages on our end (both enroute and in PH) and it makes life even more interesting!
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Westausatc and Swan River Rat,
Thanks for jumping onboard and giving us your point of view. I am sure no-one here didn't expect the 'other side to the story'.
To be brutally honest though a mockery of the slot time system was made when a/c were waiting for up to 40min after their allocated time. The same thing goes for inbound a/c who are required to hold even though they are outside of the holding period. In both cases crew has a set amount of fuel on board based on their (more often then not minimum) legal requirements. I have returned to the ramp after excessive taxi time to uplift more fuel and I have made several intermediate stops enroute due to excessive taxi time (but to be fair it was touch and go anyway on most occassions).
Some companys get charged by the clients for poor on time performance and i'm sure AsA doesn't flip the bill for this.
And finally just out of interest, why is there a bottle neck aloud to form at TWY H1 by a/c using 06 and 03. Me personally, I usually ask to cross the RWY at W and taxi via C for a L2 departure. Slightly longer in taxi but usually shorter in waiting time.
Once again I for one appreciate your input into this forum.
Mono
Thanks for jumping onboard and giving us your point of view. I am sure no-one here didn't expect the 'other side to the story'.
To be brutally honest though a mockery of the slot time system was made when a/c were waiting for up to 40min after their allocated time. The same thing goes for inbound a/c who are required to hold even though they are outside of the holding period. In both cases crew has a set amount of fuel on board based on their (more often then not minimum) legal requirements. I have returned to the ramp after excessive taxi time to uplift more fuel and I have made several intermediate stops enroute due to excessive taxi time (but to be fair it was touch and go anyway on most occassions).
Some companys get charged by the clients for poor on time performance and i'm sure AsA doesn't flip the bill for this.
And finally just out of interest, why is there a bottle neck aloud to form at TWY H1 by a/c using 06 and 03. Me personally, I usually ask to cross the RWY at W and taxi via C for a L2 departure. Slightly longer in taxi but usually shorter in waiting time.
Once again I for one appreciate your input into this forum.
Mono