BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies

[M.Mouse]

Is it because of seniority? Which you will fight tooth and nail to protect?

Yes. No.

SHow me a fairer system and one that allows me to move anywhere I wish at a similar level (much like the real world people like to refer to) and I will vote for it.

[52049er]

Sealion - you're absolutely right that our competitors are setting up OS equivalents in Europe - funny thing is they're using their own mainline pilots to do it. Plus ca meme....

[Flying Grasshopper]

There seems to be a presumption that Open Skies will be successful, BA's woeful track record to date includes: TAT, Air Liberte, Brymon, City Flyer, GO (sold below market rate), DBA (sold for one Euro), Air Russia (never got off the ground), Airlines of Great Britain Group, the BA Manchester operation closed, the BA Birmingham operation closed. Gatwick services still running but at a loss. The management jockers in BA could not run a p**s up in a brewery!

[Dave Bloke]

But we are told that we are "Unable to take industrial" action for issues relating to a "separate company". Is this not the same problem here?

No mate. The strike is not actually about Open Skies, although that is the headline. The strike is about changes (or lack of) to Schedule K of the pilot's operating agreement. You know it as "Scope".

[sikeano]

This Strike has my full Support

:ok::ok::ok:

[Shaka Zulu]

correct. to make it fit for the 21st century with de-regulation of airspace etc.
one thing the company doesn't want to budge on. funny ey!
thanks for the support. if we lose, you Will get affected.

[colossus]

Stepping back and looking at the bigger picture - why is Willie Walsh / BA management moving forward with this project? – Not deliberately as a means to aggravate pilots it’s because the regulators have moved the goal posts i.e. openskies and future market demand will arise and carriers will exist to fulfill it.

A new entrant player will have no historical baggage to allow for growth and change of plans, BA’s management is trying to create the same, because it’s in a competitive market and will need the same flexibility if it intends to succeed.

Nearly everybody in all sectors has suffered erosion of terms and conditions, mostly as a result of changes in market conditions, those businesses that fail to move on usually fall by the wayside, or get taken over. Also tell me what other profession has a seniority system that protects jobs ? most of us are exposed to a system where anybody with the applicable qualifications and experience can apply and secure the position available, rather than because they have been with the company for X years.

By all means strike – I don’t think it will get to that, as it’s not safety related you will have nil public support, you will just further alienate the traveling public who have little or no brand loyalty these days anyway.

Yes if it’s a success you doubtless will end up cannibalizing some of your existing customer base, is it not better that these customers still provide revenue to BA?

My only hope is that BA do not end up repeating what happened at GO, where they failed to capitalize on the emerging low cost sector by calling it a day to early in the game and handing useful assets over to a competitor.

[411A]

If BA pilots decide to walk the picket line, it will certainly mean that other airlines in Europe will capitalise on this disruption, and the result will be that BA will lose market share, quite likely, permanently.
Does anyone really care?
Certainly not most passengers, they will simply fly on some other carrier.
And, perhaps liking the service better on that other carrier, not return to BA.

It will serve BA, their weasil-like CEO, and the malcontents on the FD right... most of these folks will continue to find out the hard way that grand airlines are no more...and will never return.
Ever.:}

[toomuchradiations]

you are such a loser!411 or whatever ur name is!....having joined in 2000 you have posted more than 2 messages every single day......
obviously u dont do much else in yor miserable life.

BA PLANE = BA PILOT


STRIKE!

[TopBunk]

Colossus

(1) Also tell me what other profession has a seniority system that protects jobs ?

(2) most of us are exposed to a system where anybody with the applicable qualifications and experience can apply and secure the position available, rather than because they have been with the company for X years.

(3) By all means strike – I don’t think it will get to that, as it’s not safety related you will have nil public support.


(1) Seniority does not protect jobs as such. If x jobs need cutting, then x jobs will be cut. What seniority does in this case is determine which jobs will be cut. It means that brown-nosing the boss in the office doesn't help.

(2) Remember also, that BA (amongst others) proclaim to recruit Captains into the airline - ie people who show all the attributes of future captains, rather than career co-pilots. Seniority is a tried and tested mechanism in this industry of allocating command opportunities (note: not a right of passage, but an opportunity to demonstrate your worth and ability to hold such a position of responsibility).

(3) I really don't think that we care whether or not the public give us their support. In reality, we fully expect the old cliches of Surrey based, £200K pa, wife and 3 kids at private school, country mansion with a paddock and ponies, Merc and Range Rover and horse box on the drive to be rolled out by the Daily Mail. We stand on our own two feet (x 3000) and will try to make a stand for the honest workers in the country against the lying, thieving arrogant :mad: that run industry and politics in this country.

[toro]

411A

I have not been on this forum for ages...... and still you manage to make me laugh. No really you do literally with your.??? Oh can't be bothered so many before are far more elequent than me.

Anyway I come to Arizona often was even brought up there and worst of all I am a current BA pilot who has worked in the industry for 32 years and for 5 different worldwide airlines, and in a few different capacities so I guess you would consider me unsuitable to even have an opinion on this debate.

The fact is I am 100% behind the progressive thinking and attitudes of the BACC.

Would you care to meet me one day when I am in 'Arizona' I am sure the rest of pprune would be interested...???

p.s. All of you other pilots around the world working for other airlines I can assure you that I have never heard a BA pilot dis you or consider themselves 'better', please be assured of our respect.

[colossus]

TopBunk

I really don't think that we care whether or not the public give us their support. In reality, we fully expect the old cliches of Surrey based, £200K pa, wife and 3 kids at private school, country mansion with a paddock and ponies, Merc and Range Rover and horse box on the drive to be rolled out by the Daily Mail. We stand on our own two feet (x 3000) and will try to make a stand for the honest workers in the country against the lying, thieving arrogant :mad: that run industry and politics in this country.

The stereotype that you mention belongs in 1970’s, along with the steadfast attitude that working practices established decades ago can be the only ones on the table.

It’s amazing that you really don’t care if you get any public support, because it’s that same public that buy airline tickets.

Business is not unlike evolution, it’s the not the biggest and strongest that survive, it’s those that adapt to changing conditions the fastest. Move on to the brave new world, or just go down the same path as the dinosaurs, ultimately your call.

[Tandemrotor]

Our call indeed.

You'll hear it soon!

[Dave Bloke]

I'll take my chances thanks, colossus. The point you appear to be deliberately missing (and I don't understand why) is that if we don't stand up to BA over this, our pay and conditions will be wrecked. If we do stand up to them and bankrupt BA (not that I think that's a practical proposition), I'll still end up on crap pay and conditions, just with someone else.

If worst comes to worst, I won't be any worse off and at least I won't have given up without a fight. :yuk:

PS: I've added 411A to my ignore list (as recommended by a mate). Instantly the thread becomes so much more readable. :E

[Terminal 5]

The point you appear to be deliberately missing (and I don't understand why) is that if we don't stand up to BA over this, our pay and conditions will be wrecked. If we do stand up to them and bankrupt BA (not that I think that's a practical proposition), I'll still end up on crap pay and conditions, just with someone else.

And you'll also take other BA staff with you!

But an interesting point is raised, if you fight and damage BA your terms and conditions could also be damaged long term. If you don't then your terms and conditions could still also be damaged long term. So what is the lesser of two evils, BA reducing them eventually or some middle east airline coming in in years to come with a take it or leave it attitude to pay and conditions?!?!

[Dave Bloke]

T5,

Exactly. So I have nothing to lose by standing up for myself.

;)

[boredcounter]

Fortress LHR has :mad: over many franchised airlines, and :mad: over BAR with no support from BALPA members to their brethrin. Whilst I have no support in my blood for BA, what are they supposed to do! BA have called into the keep all troops and camp followers, now they have nothing left to fight with. US competition can trade in Chapter11, EU competition can recruit in Poland, Where can they run? Yet for years, BALPA never supported the BA underdog in their pocket.

[Caudillo]

Why all the frothing at the mouth? This will never come to pass.

Supine bunch. Pilots in general, rather than just Ba folk. It's all bluster.

My hat and gut are at stake.

[KC135777]

Regarding a potential strike, followed by loss of market share (lack of brand loyalty)...

...it's called LEVERAGE!

This LEVERAGE is enhanced NOT when they have public support, but when they have pilot support.

Stick together guys, stay united, and stand strong.

All the "go along-get along" BS that has occurred in the last 10-20 years has been PURELY union busting techniques of airline management.

Read Marty Levitt's book, "Confessions of a Union Buster"


Make sure you hang together, so you don't hang separately.

You have the support of the AA (APA) pilots!

Anybody on that side of the world ever hear of AIRCON?
I'll start it's own thread. Check it out.

[CaptKremin]

Good luck to the BA pilots.

IALPA fought this same fight, and hammered out a 'deal' with the company. Sadly, management have proceeded to ignore it to suit themselves.

As a result IALPA are balloting their pilots this week for industrial action.

Wouldn't it be nice if the BALPA and IALPA pilots for once stood together as a united front, in an action aimed at killing these trojan-horse deals dead!

Couldn't lose!

[DickChomh]

as a full member of ialpa...nobody mentioned a pilot ballot to me!, cabin crew are balloting for strike....

[airseb]

just out of interest (i'm not ba linked or even britain linked) when is this ballott supposed to be held?

a concerned (foreign) pilot

seb

[MR7958]

There will be a three week vote from 29 January. Not sure when strike action itself will begin if the vote is 'Yes'.

[airseb]

thanks

hope you won't need it

[Knackered Nigel]

For those that are interested in the reasoning, http://www.baplane-bapilot.org

We don't expect the support of the public, we are sending a message and using the only real leverage we have....

See you by the "chimeneas" - surely braziers are far too common for us Nigels. ;)

[Raas767]

I already posted this on a similar thread but to reiterate: To all BA pilots: This may be the most important fight of your careers! If you let the camels head in to the "scope" tent you will be forever lost. Acquiescence from you on this will give the company the green light to eventually farm out your flying in all corners of your network. It also has major implications for the other Oneworld unions. Remember, Aer Lingus has already fought this and won!
APA stands by you 100% and will help in anyway we can as, I'm sure, will the rest of the Oneworld unions.
Good luck!
To paraphrase Churchill: We shall fight them on the seas and on the oceans, we shall defend our profession, what ever the cost may be. We shall never surrender!

[Poof in Boots]

Why have the Nigel's in BA decided to pick a fight over Open Skies, but rolled over when it came down to cold steel with the pension issue?

They got shafted then and did nothing about it. BAA workers were prepared to strike, just because their final salary scheme was being closed to new entrants.

[1800-how'smyflying]

As another IALPA member, I would also like to add my full support to BA pilots and BALPA for what's ahead. Looks like we could all be fighting side by side before long.

[411A]

As another IALPA member, I would also like to add my full support to BA pilots and BALPA for what's ahead. Looks like we could all be fighting side by side before long.

BALPA will fold like a house of cards, as usual.
Nothing new.
Having said this, I can understand their combined frustration with the weasil, but it will be to no avail.
They don't stand a chance.
BALPA's time has passed.... get over it.

[Terminal 5]

If Openskies pilots are on the master seniority list and it folds in years to come and BA needs to get rid of pilots, this would presumably mean some of them are higher up the seniority list than mainline pilots, so it could be mainline pilots that get the chop.
Is that thinking correct??

[Dunbar]

We didn't roll over on the pensions issue. NAPS was seriously underfunded. A FSS pension was retained. A working compromise was reached.

If anyone needs to know why pilots will strike over the significant threat to our future careers that a divided pilot workforce represents, have a look at

http://www.baplane-bapilot.org

If, after reading that, you still believe that there is no requirement for a common seniority list, then you must be, to use a clinical term, as thick as two short planks.

ATB

[Hand Solo]

If Openskies pilots are on the master seniority list and it folds in years to come and BA needs to get rid of pilots, this would presumably mean some of them are higher up the seniority list than mainline pilots, so it could be mainline pilots that get the chop.
Is that thinking correct??

That is correct, and rightly so. No point having a single seniority list if some members on the list are more equal than others. BA still have a requirement for 200 new pilots this year and 150 per year for the following 4 years so I doubt anyone would be being laid off by BA.

BALPA will fold like a house of cards, as usual.

I'm sure you'll be along any minute to detail when BALPA in BA have folded like a house of cards. Until then we'll just assume you're speaking with your usual 'authority'.

[Dan Winterland]

Good luck guys. This one really does have to be beaten. you only have to look at the situation in Australia and their industry to realise what will happen to Europe if BA get their way.

Dragonair in Hong Kong recently tried to introduce a 'Local Report'. Pilots who were going to fly the freighters for lower Ts and Cs. The company were resoundly beaten on this issue. The result was (and still is) a withdrawl of the contract, the resignation of most of the pilots on the scheme, the grounding of aircraft and big losses by the company. A lot of this win was due to the pilot shortage, but consolidated action by the union members and IFALPA was crucial.

[ltn and beyond]

For any of those who question why is this a issue to BA pilots remember, Everyone of us in this industry goes to work to earn a living for our families, BA has and does sit towards, if not, at the top of the Ts & CS for pilots in the UK. It is a yard stick to which others a measured and a major reason we have progression in seniority in other companies as pilots move for these Ts & Cs.

If BA management are allowed to continue and with their trojan horse reduce these Ts & Cs like Quantas/Jetstar and American/American eagle, then the whole industry and all of our careers will be affected !!!!!!!!!!

BE WARNED :(::sad::(:sad:

[752_driver]

Updated T&C now on OpenSkies website indicating a type rating may not be required in the future for non ex-BA pilots, with SSP salaries detailed for Capt & FO...

[cynicalmoose]

If anyone needs to know why pilots will strike over the significant threat to our future careers that a divided pilot workforce represents, have a look at

http://www.baplane-bapilot.org (http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/)

If, after reading that, you still believe that there is no requirement for a common seniority list, then you must be, to use a clinical term, as thick as two short planks.
I'm not in the aviation industry --- hence why I don't usually post here --- but it wasn't crystal clear when I'd read the site.

If you haven't got an intrinsic understanding of how seniority lists work, the need for a common master list isn't very clear. As I understand it, the progression is this:
OpenSkies has different (cheaper) T&Cs than mainline -- BALPA agrees with this at present.
OpenSkies grows because it's cheaper than mainline (& not constrained by a packed UK base).
BA invests more money in OpenSkies because it's growing.
Therefore it's investing less in mainline and there are fewer mainline jobs growing: even BACC's site concedes that OpenSkies is unlikely to shrink mainline.As a non-pilot, what I don't understand is what the common seniority list does to help. Clearly OpenSkies pilots could then bid across for mainline jobs, but how does that ability to move bases change mainline T&Cs or threaten their position as a UK gold standard?

All BACC's site will do is tell me:
The company has stated this in the talks with your representatives. Evidence from carriers around the world suggests otherwise.We have seen network airlines startup similar operations, such as Jetstar in Australia, Aer Lingus in Northern Ireland and ClickAir in Spain. All such examples have led to an inevitable threat to the job security and terms & conditions of the parent airline.
While all this may be true, that it's happened before in Australia doesn't tell me why it will happen here in Brussels. I may be thick as two short planks, but I doubt I'm much thicker than most people in Britain, and based on that site I don't understand the core of the dispute. If it's "inevitable" you should be able to tell me why.

Experience on PPRUNE shows that journalists do not understand aviation well. They need it spelled out to them in simple bullet points that show exactly why T&Cs are under threat. Perhaps you don't need public support for this strike (I suspect you don't: BA can't afford a solid strike for any length of time). But it might be unwise not to try to court it.

[golfyankeesierra]

Updated T&C now on OpenSkies website indicating a type rating may not be required in the future for non ex-BA pilots, with SSP salaries detailed for Capt & FO...
As an initial response to BALPA's request for mutual assistance, the VNV (Dutch ALPA) advises its members not to apply, as one will be listed as "scab" (strike-breaker?), and as such one could loose the right to be represented by the union.

Anyway, good luck! I also think we're all affected (either now or in the future).

[Capt Kremin]

Once again to reiterate for any waiverers.

Look to the Qantas experience to see what management have in mind.

*Qantas pilots are effectively locked out of the proposed Jetstar expansion and there are hundreds of aircraft on order for Jetstar to expand. ( Qantas also has aircraft on order for a slight expansion but they are mainly replacements).

* The claims being made by BA management are the same being made by QF management 3 years ago. "It's a separate airline." "It won't grow beyond X number of aircraft."

The BACC is in close contact with AIPA via various channels. They know what you are up against and what you must do to counter it.

If you let Open Skies operate as planned without BA pilots having access to those seats then forget about your career plans.

BA FO's, this means you. Pilots wishing to join BA, this also means you.

Please heed this warning.

[golfyankeesierra]

I have been following your thread a little bit as an outsider (from the other side of the north sea), but the more I think about it the more I'm getting aware that this will be a testcase for the whole european airline industry.
You bet the board of a lot of companies are following this closely.

Once again, good luck.:ok:

[SR71]

Looking at those T&C's, why the hell anyone would want to join (unless you're an existing TR'ed skipper) is beyond me?

BA want to pay a SSP FO £25K to fly a 757/767 across the Pond....

I've heard it all now.

Out of interest, whats the difference between a STRP and a SSP?

[Open Lies]

IFALPA Recruitment BAN against BA's Open Skies


http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitmentban/08IND061%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20-%20BALPA.pdf


http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2397/ifalparecruitmentbanbaorl0.jpg

[411A]

Recruitment BAN now in place by IFALPA against BA/Open Skies



This will have about as much effect as the 'ban' did at CX....almost none.
BALPA are silly fools.

[bluepilot]

This 411A is he/she real? if so i guess just so sad it has to spend all its time on here, obviously has no friends....mind you with the sad attitude he/she/it has thats no surprise......right now following other peoples advice and adding him/it to my ignore list.

[Loopdeloop]

I guess he's entitled to his opinion, however ill-informed it may be.
I've worked for CX for many years (yes I joined before the ban!) and I can tell you that it did have an effect but it's effectiveness was a little reduced due to the shortage of pilot jobs on the market at that time. I've met many people who waited until the ban was over before they joined and several who took the rating and left within a couple of years due the bad feeling they felt was aimed at them.
The recruitment ban at KA was much more effective as there were plenty of other jobs around at the time. They had managers flying all around the world to do interviews only to find that only about 20% of interviewees were turning up and of those almost none took the job offered.
A recruitment ban will never be 100% effective, if they need the pilots then they just dig deeper down into the barrel to find the immoral or less experienced pilots, leaving them with a much bigger problem further down the road.
The ban is simply one of many tools available to them and I'd say it's a fairly effective one.

[BusyB]

The recruitment ban at CX was an AOA one that led to problems as CX wouldn't talk until the AOA withdrew it. An IFALPA ban would have been far more effective.:ok:

[Dan Winterland]

But perhaps the IFALPA ban will have the same effect as it did in KA. Almost totally successful! People who join an airline under a ban should beware. If they chose to leave, they may have to go and work at 411's company! :eek:

[411A]

Pilots at BA have it pretty good now, I expect, however many of these folks must still think they are employeed by Imperial Airways where, in large measure, pilots called the tune, in many ways.

Not the same now, folks, the company shareholders call the tune, make no mistake, and IF the shareholders are satisfied, due to the company managements actions, the pilots are simply not to be consulted....just told.

BA pilots pehaps will not like to read this, but sorry, them's the facts.
BALPA has for many years been rather ineffective, and will remain so.
The same (more or less) can be said about ALPA in America....nothing like it once was, and will never be, again.

[Open Lies]

Theres a constant whining of a bitter, lonely old has been in here.... I think I know how to stop it.

User CP > Buddy/Ignore Lists on LHS > Select 411A and bobs your uncle !

Ahhh... thats better.

Now back to the subject in hand

[vikena]

Great idea Open Lies.

Bye 411

V

[CaptKremin]

Regarding the effectiveness of IFALPA recruitment bans.

411 is absolutely right. The world is full of petty little ****s who put their own interests above all else, who think they can ignore the pleas of colleagues for assistance, and just suit themselves.

It obviously works for 411.

However, there is a price to pay for that attitude.

It is my information that of the 7 individuals who broke the IFALPA ban on Aer Lingus recruitment - 4 had a rethink and resigned. 1 failed his conversion course, and the other 2 are normally to be seen sitting alone in Ops, isolated from the crews they scabbed on.

Enjoy it gents. You deserve what you get.

[Loopdeloop]

BB - incorrect, it was an IFALPA ban. I'd say it stands to reason that it had some sort of effect otherwise the management wouldn't have made lifting it a pre-condition of starting talks.
Like I said, it's not the B all and end all but it's a handy tool and Capt Kremlin is spot on about the effect on the ban breakers at Aer Lingus.
If you leave a half decent job to join an airline under a ban then you should know what you're getting into, it's unpleasant and with so many other jobs out there at the moment I think it'll be quite effective in this case.

[Mister Geezer]

With the proposed OpenSkies config being just 82 seats, won't it fall into a similar category as the BA CityFlyer RJ 100s when it comes to operating outside of the Scope agreement if you have less than 100 seats?

[omoko joe]

Kremin your information source is incorrect. I believe the accurate description for it would be B*lls**t. Nice try though..and no I'm not one of them :rolleyes:

[acbus1]

This is stra-a-a-a-a-a-nge (he said in a very sarcastic voice).

When bmi wanted to form bmibaby and went ahead with the creation of a lesser paid/treated workforce using press-ganged bmi mainline emplyees (redundancy or relocation being the coshes used) BALPA not only didn't fight the attempt they actually helped it along.


Can someone explain why BAlpa did this and yet are willing to support a fight in the case of BA????????????????





No?

Thought not.

[M.Mouse]

BA pilots are a MINORITY within BALPA.

Presumably BMI BALPA pilots have elected representatives and have a BMI Company Council?

If so perhaps you had better ask that question of them rather than BA BALPA pilot's who have absolutely nothing to do with the running of the BMI company council.

[Hand Solo]

With the proposed OpenSkies config being just 82 seats, won't it fall into a similar category as the BA CityFlyer RJ 100s when it comes to operating outside of the Scope agreement if you have less than 100 seats?

No. Scope uses the number of seats an aircraft is certified for, not the number actually fitted. The RJ100s are a specific listed exception to the Scope agreement and they must all be replaced by sub-100 seat aircraft when the leases begin to expire in 2010.

acbus1 - do bmibaby pilots have a number on the bmi master seniority list?

[acbus1]

BA pilots are a MINORITY within BALPA.

Assuming that to be true, how come the MAJORITY of BAlpa attention and resources are directed at them?

Presumably BMI BALPA pilots have elected representatives and have a BMI Company Council?

They do indeed. An interesting commonality of interest is represented. Mainly an interest in weedling their way into management via selling their colleagues down the river in order to gain favour.

About time BAlpa head office did their elected job and revised the whole corrupt and ineffective mess.

If so perhaps you had better ask that question of them rather than BA BALPA pilot's who have absolutely nothing to do with the running of the BMI company council.

BAlpa Head Office people not reading this, are they not?

Apart from that obvious point, aren't we all in the "union" together, then? Don't you have any concern for your bretheren in bmi? Aren't you worried that BAlpa resoures are being unfairly allocated? Aren't you concerned by the precedents set in bmi?

Or are you only interested in yourself and know full well that BAlpa has the same BiAs?

"I'm all right, Jack (or, in this case, Barrie)" is the Nigellian BAttle cry.


Misallocation of resources and self interest rule. So much for being a "union". It disgusts me.

[Hand Solo]

I trust you have looked at the BALPA books and have evidence that BA pilots get the lions share of resources, or are you just shooting from the hip?

Re the BMI CC:
An interesting mix of interests are represented. Mainly an interest in weedling their way into management via selling their colleagues down the river in order to gain favour.

Well who voted for them? BMI pilots surely? If your company council doesn't perform then get rid of it! We have had a 'Night of the long knives' in BA in the past when those we felt were more interested in representing their own interests than ours were purged, much to their shock. It worked for us, perhaps you should try it.


About time BAlpa head office did their elected job and revised the whole corrupt and ineffective (outside of BA) mess.

Well there has recently been a big change at the top of the NEC, but notwithstanding that the leadership has to come from your own company council. If they tell head office there is no appetite for a fight then it's not head offices job to refute that.

Apart from that obvious point, aren't we all in the "union" together, then? Don't you have any concern for your bretheren in bmi? Aren't you worried that BAlpa resoures are being unfairly allocated? Aren't you concerned by the precedents set in bmi?

Yes we are in the union together. Yes we are concerned for our brethren in bmi. I don't know if resources are unfairly allocated within BALPA, but I know the BACC has to fight for funds from head office and we take out a lot less than we put it in subs. And yes, we are concerned by the precedents set in bmi, and other airlines, but what do you think BA pilots could do about it?

I'm sure it's very comforting to be able to blame BALPA and BA for all your woes, but everything that has been achieved by the BACC in BA has come from the BACC: pay reform, pensions, Scope, rostering reform. It's all come primarily from the BACC with admin and some negotiating support from BALPA head office. So just to clarify, is your complaint that BALPA head office turned down the BMI CCs request for admin and negotiating support, or that the BMI CC didn't have the cojones to stand up to the company?

[overstress]

acbus1: if bmi pilots are in a dispute, then BALPA will support them.

If you think we are only interested in ourselves, then please explain why pilot unions from around the world are pouring in messages of support and advice.

Do you not think that there are wider implications for all EU-based pilots, including, presumably, yourself?

[richemily]

What is the earliest likely date for the strike? I am off on honeymoon with BA on 19th Feb.....

[Hand Solo]

About 28th/29th February.

[10002level]

Why is this case any different than either Go or Brymon, both of which were wholly owned by BA and working on entirely different terms and conditions? There were no strike ballots then, so what has changed?

[Mister Geezer]

Brymon was never wholly owned!

[Hand Solo]

GO was set up to chase a different market from mainline. They went for budget travellers when BA was still only interested in high yield. Brymon never operated anything above 100 seats and BRAL only had 4 BAe 146s which were permitted under the 2003 Scope agreements.

On the other hand, OS is set up to chase premium transatlantic passengers, which sounds remarkably similar to BA mainlines business plan.

[Shark Slayer]

Brymon was at one time an independant airline. It was purchased by BA and it became a wholly owned subsidiary of BA, although it operated seperate to BA. Then came BACX and the the name disappeared along with BRAL and Manx and eventually BAR, but still that was what most people suspect was the intention!

For what its worth I'm with you TR and all the Nigels. What BA management is trying to do is slash and burn your jobs, but to those who compare BACX with Open Skies consider this: Brymon was completely seperate to Mainline and its employees both enjoyed the benefits of BA but also contributed to its financial bottom line. BRAL/Manx were purchased by BA and the 3 companys were merged with BAR. Up until then they did their own thing operating routes that BA did'nt or could'nt do(PLH eg). The employees in Brymon/BRAL/Manx were either happy to stay where they were enjoying the lifestyle of a regional pilot living where they wanted to live with a reduced income or they used it as stepping stone and moved on. BA and BACX ruined that and they found themselves forced to have reduced lifestyle along with reduced salarys. These pilots NEVER asked to undercut BA pilots although BA Management forced them to do so being made to fly the RJ for much less than BA pilots.

Anyway ladies and gentlemen I support you in your struggle. Good luck!

[Tandemrotor]

Many thanks Shark Slayer.

Much appreciated.

TR

[er82]

I'm behind you totally guys. You have my full support.

Also, I'll be in MCO on holiday and trying to get back on the 29th, so don't mind having a few extra days out there!!

[Tandemrotor]

If that's the 29th Feb, I suspect you'll be home and dry before the plug is (very reluctantly) pulled.

[Amigoflyer]

Can anyone explain to me how "Request for Extra Flights and/or Increased Capacity" will help BA pilots:confused:

[Open Lies]

Yes, the wording of title does not seem to make sense !

I would imagine that the actual text within the IFALPA industrial manual asks other groups/companies not to come rushing to BAs aide by providing sub chartered airframes or aircrew's - over any period of industrial unrest.

[tb10er]

"Have your cake and eat it. I am ready to strike."

Can I have your job then? My life's dream to fly a big plane.

In my company, if the management says jump, you jump (or walk - that is if you get the chance).

[Visual Calls]

My life's dream to fly a big plane.


As no doubt it was once the dream of every BA pilot. Once you've been doing it for a few months however, the novelty wears off and you realise there's more to life than flying a big aeroplane. Quite soon you realise that it's just a job and there really isn't much fun in flying an aeroplane unless you are getting treated reasonably well.

In my company,

That wouldn't be BA then, or indeed any airline, so it's fair to say your knowledge of the situation is limited at best and most likely non-existant. I always find that those with limited knowledge of a topic should refrain from commenting on said topic.

[No longer ATC]

As I understand it(and I could be wrong) it's not to help the pilots as such, but the pax who's BA flights are canx.............they can be rebooked on other carriers..........

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

That wouldn't be BA then, or indeed any airline, so it's fair to say your knowledge of the situation is limited at best and most likely non-existant. I always find that those with limited knowledge of a topic should refrain from commenting on said topic.

That's a tad arrogant and uncalled for, but that's far from unusual on here from some members of your profession. His opinion is no less valid than yours, knowledge of the airline industry notwithstanding.

SSD

[Lord Lardy]

I see the salaries have been put up on another known site today (can't mention the name for fear of advertising). Money dosen't look all that good at all. From a quick glance what most stands out is the salary for an FO who needs 2000hrs and a type rating being £25000. :uhoh::uhoh: Any budding experienced FO's would want a quick dash to the doc to get their head examined to go for that. Captains salary for the type of operation not much better either per say.
It certainly looks like a bold if not cheeky attempt to set a new set of benchmarked conditions for all airlines going forward from an industry leader.

Stick with it guys and good luck with your inevitable strike. :ok:

[opal fruit]

A strike ballot of all 3,200 British Airways (BA) pilots is to go ahead (29 January) after negotiations to avert a walkout collapsed.

The British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA) says that talks concerning BA’s new OpenSkies operation “are finished,” although the airline insists that: “We are negotiating with BALPA.”

“We have been prepared to accept that a new service will need lower costs to build the business and that BALPA would be able to crew it to meet the BA business case,” said the Union in a statement.

“But we are not prepared to see the pilot body broken up in the way BA plans and are bemused as to why they will not use BA pilots. We hope the BA leadership will think again.”

The original ballot was scheduled for 17 January although this was postponed due to the Boeing 777 incident last week, but a rough timetable, including a legal notice period, could see strike action endorsed some five weeks from today.

Should a strike occur, it would be the first time since 1980, that BA flight deck members have walked out.

That would take any potential action perilously close to BA’s opening of its spectacular new Terminal 5 and plunge the company into chaos at a time when it is looking to put the much-documented Heathrow problems behind it.

BALPA says it fears BA’s aim is to start an outsourcing programme that will change pilot conditions. “BA wants the OpenSkies pilots not trained and experienced as much as those in the mainline,” a BALPA spokesman told ABTN.

“Can a pilot come in from OpenSkies as a Captain? [with BA] The answer is no and he would have to have a training procedure. Most pilots are shareholders and we think the brand will be diluted.”

BA has robustly defended its position and insists that OpenSkies will have no detrimental impact on BA pilots. “We are disappointed that BALPA has confirmed its intention to ballot members for industrial action,” said the airline.

“There is no change to the terms and conditions for BA pilots, which are among the best in the industry.”

But there appears to be a genuine sticking point about whether or not OpenSkies flight crew could in fact work for BA. Calls to the carrier failed to confirm whether this was the case and the airline confined itself to noting: “We have told BALPA that we will offer secondments to BA pilots wishing to work for OpenSkies, with their pensions and seniority protected.

“Open Skies is being launched in a highly competitive market and demands a flexible model to stay ahead of the competition.”

BA will launch OpenSkies in June this year with one 757 operating from either JFK or Newark New York to either Brussels or Paris Charles de Gaulle. A second aircraft will be added later this year, with a total of six 757s sourced from the current BA fleet planned to operate by the end of 2009.


courtesy of ABTnews

Have they released fares yet?

[Visual Calls]

That's a tad arrogant and uncalled for,

Not really, I'd say more like a statement of the fact that the poster is unlikely to have much knowledge of the situation, as betrayed by his post.

but that's far from unusual on here from some members of your profession.

A lot less usual than uninvolved outsiders' propensity for making uninformed comments that add nothing to the debate and ultimately detract from the comments of those who have a stake in the situation - i.e. the only ones whose opinions count.

Good luck Nigels and Nigella's. Remember, Shamrock unity and resolve beat Willie in 2002 - Speedbird unity and resolve can also prevail.

[DickChomh]

Visual

Do you really believe EI beat Willie?He turned around a loss making archic organisation(albiet by getting the staff to work harder..which competition dictated ..its the real world now and no more government cheques pouring in caused that,along with the Ryans,ezys etc..a reaction to market/employment changes..)what would you have suggested to bring the cash in?
Then he went to BA, hardly the result of being a beaten CEO?

Nobody likes the current changes,but lets not forget Sabena and what the pilots achieved by digging their heels in.

[overstress]

Swissair bought Sabena, then went bankrupt. That is why Sabena closed, not because the pilots 'dug their heels in' :confused::confused:

State-owned Sabena was in the red for most of its history. It couldn't survive beyond 9/11.

BA is one of the most profitable airlines in the world. See any difference, Mr Chomnh?

[DickChomh]

1. Wrong !
2. So was Aer Lingus
3. No

[overstress]

1. Don't think so
2. So what
3. Must try harder, then!

Sabena has no relevance to this case - no matter how hard I try I can't see it :}

[tb10er]

Visual calls, I do have a stake in this. I am paying your wage. I am a fare-paying passenger. And just remember, I can always go elsewhere.:=

[er82]

You might be a fare-paying passenger, but without Visual and his/her colleagues, your fare wouldn't get you anywhere!

[Dave Bloke]

tb10er,

I apologise for any inconvenience you may experience. Whilst we appreciate that you and the other passengers pay our salaries and have a choice about who you fly with, we have reached an impasse with BA which means we have no choice but to either accept their blatantly unfair proposal or go on strike. Clearly, one way or another everyone suffers as a result of the strike but none of us are prepared to give in to BA's bullying and will do whatever we need to do to protect our livelihoods. We hope you will come back to us when this is resolved.

If you want to read more about the reasons behind the dispute, go to www.baplane-bapilot.org

If you have any other ideas of how to get BA to put Open Skies pilots on the Master Seniority List, please post them here as we have exhausted everything other than industrial action.

Dave

[IcePack]

Aviation, seems to be in an era of continuous fighting to maintain terms & conditions of employment. This IMHO is driven by all those on the ground, CEO's included who basically are "wanabes" and wish they were pilots/cabin crew as they percieve that the job is a doddle and a fantatic life style. They do not see why they should pay decent wages to people who are in their opinion doing their hobby as a living. Jelousy is a powfull thing.
We should all look to the shipping industry to see the future of aviation. Once ships were crewed by well paid western seaman. Now they are mostly crewed by far eastern underpaid individuals. The individuals themselves may be equally as competant as those seamen of yesteryear, but their wages are now absolutly awfull for the jobs they are doing.
To use the excuse that the costs must be reduced so the traveling public can have cheaper flights does not hold a lot of water as the % difference in the direct operating costs is not that great. Maybe reducing the excessive number of managers and the CEO's salary, would be of greater benifit to reducing those overheads.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

To use the excuse that the costs must be reduced so the traveling public can have cheaper flights does not hold a lot of water as the % difference in the direct operating costs is not that great.

No matter how small the saving, if it can be made, in a competitive industry why wouldn't it be?

Maybe reducing the excessive number of managers and the CEO's salary, would be of greater benifit to reducing those overheads.

I've no idea if there are an excessive number of managers in the airline business, but it does seem from these pages that many aircrew do not understand business, and would therefore tend to underestimate the importance of an effective management structure in a highly-competitive environment such as airline operations.

Your comparison with the Marine Service is a valid one. No-one is owed a living.

SSD

[Open Lies]

tb10er

Please take some time to read about the nub of the issue on www.baplane-bapilot.org (http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/)

I presume that you aspire to fly 'a big plane' for basically two reasons.

1 Because to fly a big shiny Boeing or Airbus is a career aspiration for many pilots.

Normal and reasonable !

2 That the 'big' airlines pay the better salaries and have better conditions overall.

Why do you think that is the case ?

BA turns over somewhere around £8 BLN a year. We will announce this Friday that we made around £700 MLN profit in the last 9 months. I think we are the most profitable pax airline in the world.

Like you - we had career aspirations to join an airline that would reward us better in the long term. BA and other larger airlines have the revenue and yield to offer better packages. BA is now screwing us over. We have now just been told (with glee by the duty leech) that the pilot managers are driving this money saving conflict - not the leadership team as we had presumed. Classy SS ! :mad:

Many of us climbed the greasy career ladder that (I would presume?) you are just starting out on. We have gone from sh*te flying jobs, to slightly less sh*te job, uprooted homes, uprooted families, given up Commands, paid bonds off, etc to end up in BA.

So yes, we receive a better package than many other pilots do - but when the company is trying to screw us over on our pay/pension/rostering (whatever it is this week) - would you prefer that we roll over and accept another Jetstar type situation to occur ? 30 % of QANTAS fleet is now comprised of Jetstar aircraft.

Jetstar pilots receive around 2/3rds of the pay of QANTAS pilots. If you would prefer for us to roll over and let the job that you aspire to having to be decimated in the way Jetstar, Clickair etc have been - you dont understand the problem and are letting the idea that a childhood aspiration of flying a 'big plane' cloud your judgment.

tb10er, please take the time to understand why when so many pilots who go the extra mile - day in - day out (just like you I would guess) - have now had enough of out lying, stealing, morally bankrupt management trying to steal our career aspirations from us - against our SCOPE clause.

We do NOT want to go on strike.

It is quite abhorrent for me to realise that I MUST both tick the box for industrial action and also actually withdraw my labour. It will be the saddest day in my career.

We protect what we have (and lets not forget we are not asking for something new - we are merely asking for our current existing agreements to be honored) for selfish reasons. But if we don't - I can assure you that you will not be aspiring to fly 'big planes' for BA on their aspirational terms and conditions...

[Shaman]

<<It is quite abhorrent for me to realise that I MUST both tick the box for industrial action and also actually withdraw my labour. It will be the saddest day in my career.>>

Sometimes, one has to stand up for oneself.

[SR71]

The lunacy of this industry never fails to amaze me.

When it costs less to fly to Tenerife than take a bus to Paddington, there is a non-sequiter somewhere in the business model...

Notwthstanding our own industry is responsible for this status quo, I can assure you it wasn't professional pilots who dreamt this up.

So why the hell should we pay for it?

I don't object to the idea that what I should pay for a passage, whatever the form of transport, should bear some resemblance to the cost of such passage.

Unfortunately, it would appear, many do.

This is the bottom line.

[E. MORSE]

The comparison with the marine service is not a valid one,
as there is simply not enough intrest in the merchant marine officers jobs anymore, you will not be able to find many of them around anymore.(hence the signing up on the ships from officers from Eastern Europe or further away)

As opposed to the pilots jobs, for whom plenty people are availble , with or without experience.

[IcePack]

E.M,

I assume that is because the terms & conditions packages offered are inadequit to attract the folks who historicaly did the Job.
Umm!, I wonder where aviation will be in 25 years time? Maybe the same methinks.:(

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The comparison with the marine service is not a valid one,
as there is simply not enough intrest in the merchant marine officers jobs anymore, you will not be able to find many of them around anymore.(hence the signing up on the ships from officers from Eastern Europe or further away)

As opposed to the pilots jobs, for whom plenty people are availble , with or without experience.

People are only clamoring for pilot jobs now becuase it is percieved to be well paid, glamourous, and fun.

That used to be the case in the marine service, as well. These days it's at the bottom of most people's job aspiration list because it's poorly paid, hard work, and definately not fun! Even as a captain.

I think we are witnessing the end of the 'golden age' of airline flying. That's sad, but inevitable I think if you look at the way the industry business model is headed.

[IcePack]

SSD,

I guess it comes down to how much you are prepared to pay to get Pilots who are well trained and kept up to standard. e.g. 2 sim checks a year rather than 1 & who are prepared to submit to laying their career on the line every few months to meet the standard. Would I put up with that for 24K/ann. No way.:rolleyes:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

IP - but I'd bet there are folk out there who would..... Not £24K perhaps, but the £40 to £50K region max.

[IcePack]

SSD,
You are proberbly right (about the 24K & the fare paying public),worrying isn't it!

[sky9]

I was reading a couple of days ago that GP's salaries have gone up form £65000 to £110000 a year in the last 3 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=HBZCYQHUKSZEFQFIQMGSFFWAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/10/31/ndoctor131.xml

When I was a F/O my GP friend and I were on comparable salaries, how many F/O's see £110,000 in 2008?

[overstress]

Whilst respecting the pilot-GP comparison, GP's only kill their patients one at a time, whereas pilots tend to do it in the hundreds.... :eek:;););)

But we are witnessing the commencement of a fresh attack on all pilot terms & conditions, initiated it seems by a few pilot managers in BA who think that they'll have a go at their dedicated workforce.

[Amigoflyer]

As I understand it(and I could be wrong) it's not to help the pilots as such, but the pax who's BA flights are canx.............they can be rebooked on other carriers..........
If BA's code sharing partners and franchises increase their flights to pick up the BA's passengers during strike, it will help the BA's management and the strike will be less effective isn't it? BA will still make money by sending the pax to those partners. I just don't get the IFALPA's rule:confused:

[DickChomh]

Visual

I have read many of your posts and at least when I'm wrong I'm humble/adult enough to admit it.You on the other hand must be a CRM nightmare to work with,

Ref item 3...try harder..:ugh::rolleyes:

[Right Engine]

I'm not a fan of PPrune.

I'm not militant.

I feel I must post.

It is most unfortunate for passengers and non-pilot colleagues, that we believe that the intent of Open Skies is to replicate the Jetstar business model. Senior managers know this and are a few phrases short of admitting it. Their assurances are hollow.

I will strike as I believe 90%+ others will. I have the funds to carry out my threat.

100% behind my Union.

[411A]

I'm not a fan of PPrune.


Then why bother posting here....and does anyone especially care?:rolleyes:

[TopBunk]

I'm not a fan of PPrune.

and from 411A
Then why bother posting here....and does anyone especially care?:rolleyes:


The point is that he cares enough to try to point out how deeply he (as a non-militant) feels about the situation. In many ways that says more, coming from a non-fan.

To me, it says more than your comment, of which .... who cares what you think?

[Right Engine]

411A,

You were the reason I stopped visiting the site.

It would appear you are still an utter :mad:.

[Terminal 5]

have now had enough of out lying, stealing, morally bankrupt management trying to steal our career aspirations from us - against our SCOPE clause.

Leaving aside the arguments either way in this thread I think that Middle Eastern and Far East Airlines and the likes of Ryanair / Easyjet etc are more of a threat to your career aspirations than BA ever will be!

[Skylion]

Damigo: BA get virtually nothing from a passenger flying on a codeshare flight operated by someone else and they are down to only 2 franchises - Comair in South Africa and SunAir in Denmark , neither of which can provide capacity outside their specific zones. BA does not get anything for passengers flying on so called alliance partners either. This was true too of the old pools which saw very limited transfer of funds from one carrier to another .Thus if mainline stops flying they have almost nil income.

[Skylion]

I should add to the above that there is little in common between Jetstar which operates out of the same country and cities as Qantas mainline and Open Skies which is an entirely offshore operation. I agree that the threat to BA's pilots is outside BA and not in this relatively minor forray into direct Europe-USA operations. Any strike will only further debilitate BA from within and is totally irrelevant to the real threats to long terms careers, pay and conditions etc. The reality is nothing like some of the more hysterical postings above and folk should hesitate before getting over excited about this one. If it were flying into the heartland of LHR that would be a different matter but it's unlikely to ever have the resources and investment to do so. Nor is it going to divert business from mainline BA as high yield transfer business through there from cities like Paris with direct flights to New York has no reason to fly via London.

[stinker99]

A section of Associated Press article, ref. open skies, read online :-

"We've got to use the entrepreneurial spirit of a small company -- the hungriness, and a little bit of the fear -- that says 'hey listen, if we're not successful, we don't exist,'" Moss said.

"a little bit of fear" - i.e. do as we say or your sacked.

Time for BA pilots to stick up for themselves.

[Tandemrotor]

Skylion, your last sentence is not easy to understand.
Nor is it going to divert business from mainline BA

Then where will the slots at JFK come from?

[747-436]

Then where will the slots at JFK come from?

I thought that if Openskies couldn't gain fresh slots at JFK then it would fly to EWR instead?

[M.Mouse]

I believe that if slots are not forthcoming to operate into JFK then some of BA's existing slots will be used and the displaced BA services transferred to EWR. I learned that from somebody who is well placed to know.

Skylion, I would suggest reading the website http://www.baplane-bapilot.org/ if you would really like to understand what this is all about but I suspect that you don't.

[Sunshine Express]

Skylion

Quote: "there is little in common between Jetstar which operates out of the same country and cities as Qantas mainline and Open Skies which is an entirely offshore operation. I agree that the threat to BA's pilots is outside BA and not in this relatively minor forray into direct Europe-USA operations."

2 points:

1.Replace the word country with continent and you have the same situation.

2. Not the same cities YET. A few years hence I would not not be surprised to see Open Skies flying Manchester and Glasgow to JFK/EWR and BA management will get away with it IF we don't make a stand now.

[Skylion]

M.Mouse,- oh,- but I do!

[Human Factor]

M. Mouse,

Skylion does a good impression of being a BA manager. Two words spring to mind - head and sand. In fact, his patronising tone almost reminds me of MMS! Personally, I'd ignore him as he has nothing useful to contribute to the debate. Actually, that almost certainly means he is a manager!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh:

HF

[Hand Solo]

Aaah MMS. One so junior making enemies so soon! Better hope OS works out or there'll only be the consolation of an out of seniority management command to look forward too.

[LHR747]

As a BA shareholder and retired BA pilot i wish you, Dale Moss, the very best of luck in this new venture. It is sad to hear that BALPA will be opposing your plans solely on the basis of an unfounded fear that the new airline might change BA mainline pilot's Ts&Cs. Although the Union claims their argument relates to the Scope agreement the truth is that they are fighting for their Ts&Cs. Evidence of this is there for all to read on this very forum.

So stand firm Mr Moss and take on this self interest group.

Best wishes
LHR747

[3Greens]

LHR747

Your comment is despicable. I can only guess that you were a non-BALPA member or a manager at BA. If you are indeed an ex-BA pilot you must have been very unpopular indeed to fly with as your comment of your colleagues disgusts me.

[Open Lies]

Wind up merchant, just another to ignore.

[Dave Bloke]

LHR747

It is sad to hear that BALPA will be opposing your plans solely on the basis of an unfounded fear that the new airline might change BA mainline pilot's Ts&Cs.

1. We don't oppose the setting up of Open Skies, quite the contrary.

2. Our fears are hardly unfounded. If you'd bothered to read the thread, you would see why.

3. Why shouldn't we defend our Terms and Conditions, of which Scope is part?

Glad you've retired, mate. Sounds like we're better off without you. You strike me as being either as deluded as 411A or a management lackey (as that is your sole post) so you can join him on my ignore list.

Dave

[LHR747]

Naturally I agree that staff should defend their Ts&Cs, I know I would. However opposing the formation of a separate airline, most probably crewed by US pilots, is a rather mischievous way of going about such a defense.

As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances. No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down?

By what tortuous path can BA pilots expect the great majority of far lower paid British pilots to support them? Is it not bad enough that BALPA is, for all intense and purposes, a private British Airways Union cross funded by pilots and engineers from the rest of UK aviation. I well remember many years ago when, as a pilot in Britannia Airways, I was dismayed to discover that all 350 Britannia pilot's contribution to BALPA funds did not even meet BALPA's entertainment budget!

So come on BA pilots don't expect us to cry for you or be fooled about how losing this one will affect us all.

Best regards
LHR747

[fruitbat]

LHR 747 you make me laugh. This is a dispute between BA pilots and BA. We're not asking for outside support, it is our fight to protect our jobs and those who may join BA in the future. We will stand up for ourselves thank you, it would just be nice if people understood the issues properly before posting nonsense here.

[52049er]

Dear Would-love-to-have-flown-a-747LHR. I can't even be bothered to get cross, but I've got 10 minutes so....

However opposing the formation of a separate airline

We're not

most probably crewed by US pilots

Nope

is a rather mischievous way of going about such a defense

We're not so this is irrelevant (& isn't it defence over here)

As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances

I think 1 or 2 did last year - Standards Captains with shed loads of overtime to keep our creaking training infrastructure going. BTW a salary does not by definition include overtime & allowances so nones salary went over £200 000.

No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down

See above

By what tortuous path can BA pilots expect the great majority of far lower paid British pilots to support them?

We don't

Is it not bad enough that BALPA is, for all intense and purposes, a private British Airways Union cross funded by pilots and engineers from the rest of UK aviation

We put in more than we get out. Happily. Less than 50% of BALPA members are BA pilots.

I well remember many years ago when, as a pilot in Britannia Airways, I was dismayed to discover that all 350 Britannia pilot's contribution to BALPA funds did not even meet BALPA's entertainment budget!


Not sure why you put this in. Hope the dismay has been replaced by something more pleasant.

So come on BA pilots don't expect us to cry for you or be fooled about how losing this one will affect us all.

OK!

Other than that, thanks for your thoughts. Off to listen to my 2 year old babbling on now, I've had some good practice here. Cheers!

[Tandemrotor]

LHR747

You are patently NOT what you claim to be. Nor do you have the first idea about this issue.

As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000 with overtime and allowances. No wonder they want to protect their Ts&Cs, but will these inflated salaries not result in the whole edifice tumbling down?

Since BA (the World's most profitable airline!) appears on target to make around £1billion in profit, it would appear your fears are unfounded!

If I were you, I would visit the balpa web site, which all REAL retired BA pilots have access to, and brush up on the facts, before you embarrass yourself any further!

Are you having any difficulty spending your £100, 000 a year pension?

I won't make that figure, because our T&Cs are constantly under attack. It's your generation that were privileged, not mine mate! Now act your age, not your shoe size!

[call100]

Hi
Straight off I'm not a Pilot but have worked in aviation for many years. I know from bitter experience that you will not convert anyone against your cause. I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs. However, I do know that only those involved in a dispute can truly know what its about.
Anyway, the point of the post is to offer you support in the struggle ahead and assure you that not everyone thinks its wrong.....
Good Luck..:ok:

[MANBLK]

LHR747, you are a breath of fresh air.

From where I stand (as I've tried to explain on pages 3/4 of this thread) these jobs can either improve the lot of the open pilot market (ie the likes of me, and yes I've already admitted to self-interest) or can go to a group who have plenty of privileges already (who are apparently only worried about eroded T&C's, not about self-interest) and are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market.

BALPA represents me, not just BA pilots, and my expensive sub is about to be spent on supporting an action that disadvantages me and thousands like me.

[Right Way Up]

ManBlk,
Many posters have explained the reasons why this should be opposed. I fly for one of BAs major European competitors and I am very happy that Balpa are fighting BA on this. You are thinking too short term, yes you may get what you consider a good job, but in the long term it is the start of T&c reductions across the industry.

[TheKabaka]

Oh dear MANBLK you have not listened nor understood some patient replies about the reasons this course of action is going ahead.

Also if your company had a dispute with your company council you would also get the support of BALPA so I don't understand why you are worried about BALPAs' money! It is there for exactly these reasons.

[M.Mouse]

As I understand it, BA Captain's salaries can reach over £200,000

Do you read the Daily Mail for your information LHR747?

It is like saying all solicitors are coining it in.

M.Mouse
20+ year longhaul captain and definitely not earning anywhere remotely near that figure although I did fly 900 hrs in the past 12 months.

[MANBLK]

Kabaka, if (hypothetically) my CC wanted to do something that potentially damaged the prospects of BA pilots, not one penny of BALPA support would be forthcoming.

As regards not understanding the situation, I don't believe that the BA CC have any intention of allowing any of these LHS jobs to go outside BA. That's the difference.

[Autobrake Low]

I have to say ( and i dont usually post) it is a bit discouraging although somewhat amusing to read some of these posts by non BA pilots. I have worked for 3 airlines and am now with the worlds favourite but have been a paid up member of BALPA since getting my licence. At no time was i under the impression that it was an exclusive club for BA pilots. The effectiveness of the union gains its strength from each individual airlines membership numbers as well as their resolve to stand together on important issues.

In the case in question - there is a clear and present threat to the terms and conditions we enjoy today. Why should we just shrug our shoulders and see that decline materialise? Should all so called 'overpaid' pilots reduce their terms and conditions to the lowest common denominator? Would all Thomas Cook, Easyjet, Thomson etc crews take a paycut to come into line with flybe or Eastern airways pay scales? (no offence meant to those two)if its good enough for them why not good enough for the rest of us? Of course that is not the case. There is a natural hierarchy of payscales within the airlines and that is just fact. Willie Walsh for example, I imagine - earns a good deal more than the chief exec of smaller airlines. I can only presume that those who state - they have no sympathy for us or the whole edifice will come tumbling down - are simply suffering from a bit of the green eyed monster.
I suggest they get their own house in order - boost BALPA membership within their own outfit and stand strong to improve their lot rather than hope everyone else falls down to their level. Either that or apply for BA!!!!
:*
Feeling much better now!

[StudentInDebt]

As regards not understanding the situation, I don't believe that the BA CC have any intention of allowing any of these LHS jobs to go outside BA.You don't understand the situation then, the BACC wants neither LHS or RHS jobs to "go outside BA". The BACC want all Openskies pilots to join the BA seniority list regardless of the seat they will occupy. The BACC have made no objection to the use of direct-entry commands to crew Openskies. It is British Airways' proposal that an Openskies direct-entry captain (or FO) will be required to undergo the BA selection process should they wish to move to LHR/LGW, the BACC has not suggested this and they are opposed to it. It is British Airways that is offering mainline pilots the (limited) opportunity to be seconded to Openskies and they did so before negotiations regarding Schedule K began. If they bid to take this up mainline pilots will have to go through an interview process in addition to meeting the Openskies recruitment criteria.

To sum up the BACC welcomes the creation of Openskies as an opportunity to grow the BA brand, is not trying to keep the commands in-house and is trying to ensure that Openskies pilots have full and open access to mainline positions if they want them. British Airways management are denying Openskies pilots mainline opportunities and through the use of secondments will be restricting the command aspirations of any Openskies direct-entry first-officer. Does this help your understanding?

[toomuchradiations]

If we do strike is there a danger for W.W to close down the airline and start it up on new T&Cs after a while?
will BA get rid of our staff travels?
will BA know exactly who's on strike and will they keep a "note" on our file?
will BA be in a position to individualy sack those of us who are on strike?

[Dick Deadeye]

MANBLK you are starting to come across as someone who is either too dim or too lazy to read what has already been written by people trying to answer your points. For the last time:


The BA CC would LIKE you to go straight into the LHS of an OpenLies aircraft.

The BA CC would LIKE you to be able to go to the R/LHS of a BA aircraft, WHEN you have sufficient seniority, and IF YOU CHOOSE to do so.

Now, if selected for OpenLies, ask yourself:


Why don't BA want you to do that?

Why won't BA consider you as suitable to command a BA aircraft?

Why won't BA consider you as suitable to be a mainline F/O?


You might then, just, start to realise what this is all about. :mad:

[overstress]

MANBLK: There are a lot of contributors to this thread who understand the importance of the issues and are patiently trying to explain them to you.

It really is time now for you to do some of your own research.


toomuchradiations: visit the BALPA website or read the communications from BALPA you have had through your letterbox.

You are a member, I presume?

[MANBLK]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to waste your time and effort. Quite simply, I totally distrust what is being officially stated by all sides in this matter. I just don't think DEC would ever happen, despite best intentions. That is the gulf between us. I'll keep quiet now, and thank you for reading my posts even if I am dim and lazy!

[M.Mouse]

I totally distrust what is being officially stated by all sides in this matter.

I do not wish to strike, I am not militant, I do not have a great love of unions but from years of experience and observation I realise that they are a necessary evil. I have read all that has been published by both sides and have also examined carefully the rise of Jetstar in Australia and American Eagle in the USA. I am afraid it is a no-brainer. Bear in mind all we are asking for is a COMMON seniority list. i.e. an OpenLies direct entry P1 or P2 has a BA seniority number from day one nothing to do with impeding the setting up of the new venture nor crippling it with agreements and unsustainable costs.

I do hope your analytical skills are more evident when flying.

[MANBLK]

...and I would hope that you don't routinely insult your fellow pilot just because he/she disagrees with you! Goodbye, Mr Mouse.

[M.Mouse]

Not an insult, just an observation.

[Kasual Observer]

MANBLK, it would appear from your previous posts that you are a pilot with Jet2, that bastion of unionisation who are able to protect the Ts & Cs of your brother pilots by being so totally split between the newbies and muppets who want to be represented by IPF, TGWU or a workers comittee. :rolleyes: Now we see why there is no backbone at Jet2 and you come here and have the audaciity to lecture to us about Balpa and how Ts & Cs should be left to BA management for what is quite obvious to the majority of pilots, BA or otherwise, an attack that could have ramifications for all of us.

It really takes chutzpa to be lectured on the reasons why Balpa is supporting the BA pilots in their dispute with the BA management from someone who is quite happy to roll over and take it up the rear from his own management at Jet2 and appears to be seeking a better job with OpenSkies. It's quite obvious that wherever you work there will be lower Ts & Cs than the rest of the industry. :ugh:

[MANBLK]

Strangely enough, I can't change a whole airline singlehanded and Jet2's poor unionisation is hardly a valid reason why I shouldn't wish for Open Skies.

You might be surprised by Jet2. Kasual Observer, do you actually know anything about Jet2 other than what you read on Pprune? Despite the problems, I'll miss it a lot.

[birdspeed]

Forgive me, I am trying hard to decide whether I am deeply naive or just very cynical, but I can't help considering WW's true intentions in all of this. As we all know, his track record is one of unscrupulous ruthlessness and it is a commonly held belief that he has little respect for the Flight Crew community.
It is with that knowledge that I find myself questionning his true motives. Consider this:
Day One: BA pilots decide to man/woman the braziers
Day Two: WW sacks the lot
Day Three: A new contract (probably held on a floppy & currently under
lock & key somewhere in the inner sanctum of Waterworld).

It's terms? Surprise, surprise...not too disimilar from those of the intended OS startup boys & girls. OK, so it's very easy here & now to say that no-one would be prepared to sign it, but, 2 or 3 weeks into a strike, once the bills start landing on the doormat and the other half is nagging about the cost of little Cosima's ballet lessons, temptation might well take hold. Mini-cabbing doesn't pay too well these days.
Result? A huge victory for WW. He's taken BA to the wire, smashed Balpa, established OS at LHR & won a big PR coup, after all, what were those spoilt/wingeing/overpaid/over-pampered pilots campaigning about when they weren't directly threatened?
He'd have the Daily Mail & public opinion on side within minutes of it all kicking off thanks to the BA publicity machine going into well-planned overdrive.

[LHR747]

Each year BALPA publish a list of comparative salary rates for UK airline pilots. There is consequently no great secret about rates of remuneration. The rates quoted below are extracted using these charts and are complemented with interviews with serving BA flight crew.

As a long haul captain with 20+ years you will be earning circa £135,000 (inc. allowances). How do is this known? Because the pay scales are published for all to see.

Reach pay point 24 and £150,000+. Do some overtime and the gap with £200,000 is almost closed. It is also known that several BA Captains topped £250,000 pa recently. This must surely be a source of some considerable concern for British Airways senior management who remain answerable answerable to shareholder's interests.

Even cabin crew can top £60,000 pa in BA. Admittedly this does not include those starting out in the airline. However, Cabin Service Directors (stewards and stewardesses with company titles) on long haul do very well out of the BA gravy train.

It is only a matter of time before the low cost carriers force the Full Service airlines into some hard cost cutting in order to compete in this market.

I trust this has been of some help

[goerring]

Autobrake Low :
I have to say ( and i dont usually post) it is a bit discouraging although somewhat amusing to read some of these posts by non BA pilots

Well Autobrake , I have to say ( and I don't usually post ) it is totally discouraging and NOT at all amusing to read some of these posts by BA pilots.

Having been at the recieving end of SCOPE and BA Balpa who managed to stop my career progression by offering my potential seat to ( some very nice and professional chaps ) from HRW , and therby managing to halve my final salary pension when the company got sold and pension scheme closed , I have mixed feelings about union solidarity if one is in a wholy owned BA subsiduary.

Fight for your t&c's , fight for all Openskies pilots on the seniority list , but don't accept the "secondees get first option " offer from BA , it is unfair and undermines any Union.

[Tandemrotor]

British Airways are currently on target to make around £1billion profit this year.

Just remind me which of our competitors are making so much money out of their hard working employees?

The World's most profitable airline!

I trust this has been of some assistance.

PS: Glad you have dropped the ridiculous claim to being a retired BA pilot.

[Ropey Pilot]

Day Two: WW sacks the lot

It's illegal to sack someone taking part in legal industrial action for the first 12 weeks of that action

[pralston]

Hi All,

If, and only if, this very interesting and informative site represents, in a general sense, the opinion/mindset of the average BA pilot, then as a client I'm all in FAVOUR of this Openskies initiative and a freeing up of competition for your niche profession.

Many industries have had to evolve over the years and for some, it has been painful, but nobody should be allowed to stand in the way of commerical competition unless life (whatever form) can be proven to be at risk.

Enjoy the gravy train while it lasts. Hell, enjoy your strike if that turns you on. But at the end of the day, you'll wipe your tears away, stop being jealous of previous generations and join the rest of the world getting on with life - hey, you might even have the balls to quit and go do something else that makes you happier... but I doubt that.

I sure hope my 1st paragraph is wrong and that this site is actually >80% populated with the whining minority :sad:

Ciao

[wee one]

Manblk,
Where do you get the assumption there will be no DEC at OS because of BALPA
I have turned down two interviews for the LHS at OS until this is sorted.

If you havent had a Capts interview maybe you werent suitable.

OS are recruiting for both seats. Its the FOS that will be shafted if balpa lose.EG Its cheaper to hire me than it is to promte you and hire another you.
If your face doesnt fit your screwed as well. Were you in the airforce..If nt Id watch how you act in front of some of the new management. you might not be thier sort. To stop all this balpa have to win. Some outsiders, some BA and all protected.

[Shaka Zulu]

LHR747 even if your payscale info is correct, your assertion about max remuneration is totally and utterly wrong.

We know internally who earned the most etc.(official/unofficial) And there certainly weren't a few that earned 250k+
I only know of 1 (repeat ONE) person that went over 200k. He's what we call a Martini man, doing everything on draft money (as it stood 1.5 times the normal rate of pay) and having NO (I repeat NO) homelife. Having flown with him I can say it takes a rare breed to think like him.

To put a stop to all of this overtime and some other work coverage issues BALPA have drafted changes to our bidding system which has been implemented. BA pressed BALPA that the rules were not working as INTENTED.
Rules got chaged without strike (not saying without strong opposition in certain cases!)
The intent of Bid Line Rules was not to have these things happening, so it was changed.

The intent of Schedule K has to be changed because the aviation landscape is changing rapidly with de-regulation of airspace.
And because its now not in the companies' best interest they dont want to change it.
FUNNY THAT!

[fruitbat]

The last strike called by BA pilots was in 1980.

To anyone who can't or won't see the risks, you are either very dim, haven't read the abundance of literature that BALPA have sent out or you are a BA manager.

UKPilot2, if you really are a BA pilot why don't you call BALPA and discuss your concerns? If you PM me with your staff number I will be happy to pass on your details to one of the team. Strike action IS a serious business but so is protecting our careers.

[biddedout]

Studentindebt

Thanks for your clear summary if the situation.


It is British Airways' proposal that an Openskies direct-entry captain (or FO) will be required to undergo the BA selection process should they wish to move to LHR/LGW, the BACC has not suggested this and they are opposed to it.


If it is BA who are insisting that anyone employed in this new operation have to sit full BA selection tests before moving to LHR/LGW, I would love to hear WW explain just how it is that a pilot could be employed in thr next few months to fly a BA owned and BA insured jet across the Atlantic and yet statistically, there would be a high chance of them not being suitable to fly a similar Jet across the atlantic from an airport on the outskirts of London. Is the air different around there or something?

We had all this industrial apartheid bull in BAcon. Even if BA inherited some old duffers like myself who might not have been their type, in this case, its a completely new start up so there can be absolutely no reason to hire a different type of pilot to do exactly the same job as another in the same group of companies. This is just pathetic gameplaying on the part of BA managment. I am glad BALPA are now ressting this sort of nonsense.

Has WW passed the BA pilot selection tests yet? :rolleyes:

[Hand Solo]

Why have the rebuttals to LHR747 and Compass Centres posts been removed but not LHR747s first post? Oversight by the mods?

[Danny]

Please do not be wound up by a master baiter. LHR747, compasscenter and UKPilot2 are one and the same person. I have taken the decision to publish this fact as it is not in anyones interest for this thread to escalate out of control and for the mods to have to deal with the resultant firefighting.

I know may people have multiple PPRuNe identities but to have them used in one thread to try and back up their own arguments is not acceptable. Please take note that we do investigate possible multiple identities when the subject matter is one that is likely to affect issues such as this one.

[Hand Solo]

Good work Danny. Unfortunately I suspect there may be more of the same to come as BA's managers take the gloves off. It would be interesting to see who owns the IP address of LHR747!

[Tandemrotor]

Danny

Thank you.

747LHR is simply a pathetic loser. Wonder if this is representative of the nasty shenanigans to come?

[fruitbat]

Thank you Danny. Whichever Manager stooped that low should be truly ashamed. It only strengthens the resolve, someone reported the posts on the BALPA BA forum.

[Brakes...beer]

Pralston,

I fully understand that, as a passenger, you might wish to see pilots paid less in order to knock a pound or two off your next ticket. I hope you understand why I might possibly disagree with you. This is a straightforward economic tussle between BA pilots and the company. We are not looking for sympathy from passengers or the Daily Comic.

Birdspeed,

You'll be giving the management wet dreams with your scenario:

Day One: BA pilots decide to man/woman the braziers
Day Two: WW sacks the lot
Day Three: A new contract

How about a more realistic progression?

Day 30: Strike still largely solid/lockout continues. BA's record-breaking annual profit has been wiped out. Still another 8 weeks before management can legally sack pilots and replace them, let alone restart operations. Martin Broughton reluctantly agrees to investors' demands to sack Walsh and end dispute...

For what it's worth, I'd be surprised if the company could last that long.

[stroppy jock]

ManBlk, sorry if you have already been replied to but you posted this-
"these jobs can either improve the lot of the open pilot market (ie the likes of me, and yes I've already admitted to self-interest) or can go to a group who have plenty of privileges already"

These are new jobs, and we arent planning on stoppping you guys going for them or applying for the vacancies that would be created in BA if existing BA pilots went across - but we do insist that anyone who goes to OS has the opportunity to share in what you call our " privileges" in the future.

ie We are pressing for anyone who joins OS to be able to share in its success and the success it might bring to BA.

[Megaton]

It's obviously time to welcome those hard-working managers from Waterside to pprune

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Having followed this with some interest, I would just like to add my support to BALPA and their excellent efforts on behalf of their membership at BA. The first casualty of war is truth, and nowhere is that more evident than in disputes like this. It is completely irrelevant that one BA Captain once earnt £250k (significantly less than any Board Member I am sure) - that is not what this is about. You just need to see some of the comments here and it is clear that people cannot see the wood for the trees. I work for the opposition, and some BA First Officers earn more than I do as a Training Captain in the low cost world, but again that is irrelevant. Pilots from all other airlines should be 100% behind their BA colleagues in this forthcoming battle.

The BA pilots have rightly recognised a clear and present danger to their futures by what is being proposed under Open Skies. This is clearly a BA operation, run by BA managers, using BA aircraft, set up using BA expertise and BA IT support. In order to 'cut costs', BA managers have deliberately taken jobs from BA mainline crew to set up this operation. If you take a pile of 757s and 767s from BA and give them to a new operation in Europe those aircraft are clearly no longer available to fly for BA, with the loss of jobs for BA mainline crew that will inevitably bring. BA pilots are not disputing the need for low costs in this venture - they are rightly disputing the operating of large jet aircraft in BA colours where the pilots are not on the BA seniority list. That seniority list is there for the proection of all and there is no reason whatsoever that the new crews working for the new venture cannot be added to the bottom of that list. In addition, by virtue of being at the bottom of that list they would take their turn for command behind the other BA pilots who are above them. If for any reason there are insufficient takers for the deal (and I cannot believe that would be the case), then BA would then, and only then, be able to recruit externally for captains. It is not rocket science and is an entirely reasonable demand. If ever there was a time to fight this is it. If the BA pilots are weak-willed and spineless now they will deserve the inevitable disaster that will befall them in the years to come.

[overstress]

NSF: A very accurate precis of the situation as perceived by BA pilots. Thank you for your support.

[fruitbat]

NSF, thank you. It's nice to know at least some of our colleagues in other companies have spent the time to learn the facts and have an informed opinion. The support is rock solid, it is a war BA will not win. We will not let a trojan horse like Openlies destroy our futures. If WW wants to destroy the company he is going the right way about it. I like the 3000 other BA pilots have great loyalty to BA and this is how we are rewarded...

[Dick Deadeye]

Congratulations NSF, excellent post.

Very refreshing to see that someone from another airline understands the real reasons behind this BA move.

Make no mistake, if BA win this dispute, it will be weeks, not months, before all the other UK airlines are up to something similar.

[Shark Slayer]

Be under no illusion ladies and gentlemen, this is a wholesale attack on pilots salaries etc. Yes it only affects BA but as a major player, the rest of the worlds airline managers will be watching and if BA get away with it, it will snowball. No I don't work for BA but I've watched JS/QF from the sidelines and you don't need the brains of an Archbishop to work it out, the whole op is designed to restructure QF pilot work force bit by bit(CNS-DRW-SIN eg)and undercut, or in their words reduce costs. The only reason QF have'nt gone further is the chronic shortage of pilots in Aus caused in part by Aus Airline Mngt traditionally appalling attitude to the workforce.

Having worked in UK for Brymon/BACX/BACON and been a paid up BALPA member I am well aware of the BA way and the general inept managers they employ for life, when most should be given life for stupidity, ignorance and a lack of integrity. When will the BA lot in the Kremlin at waterworld realise that the Airline runs inspite of them and not because of them.

BALPA,for the first time in my life, stand fast please if not for yourselves but the industry in total.

[747-436]

So who is going to operate the A318's from London City:

http://bapress.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/bapress.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=&p_lva=&p_faqid=7417

Mainline crew??

[Tandemrotor]

Mainline pilots will operate this.

Very glad it won't be me! :rolleyes:

[Roobarb]

Danny, don't be too harsh on the BA Taleban posting here. Many of them are schizophrenic and suffer from multiple personality delusions and psychotic tendencies.

I even witnessed one of them yesterday trying to convince a loyal brother that 'He just couldn't see the problem with Open Skies' and that BALPA has it all wrong.

The fact that he can't see that BRU-JFK would compete with BRU-LHR [Five hour wait in Terminal Darfour, lose bags and dignity] LHR-JFK, just goes to show that they're either naive, stupid, or completely disengenuous.

Posting here smacks of desparation, and frankly I'm not surprised.:ugh:

http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/eightieszone/Roobarb1.jpg
I'll take on the competition anyday, it's my management I can't beat

[Dysag]

I am not management, nor an airline pilot, nor a journo, nor a lawyer etc.
And I saw my own employment terms and conditions deteriorate over time, so I'm inclined to be supportive.

You have all been very open in saying this is about protecting what you've got.

But reading this thread I get the impression that you ladies & gentlemen (and BALPA) don't recognise the difference between fighting just Little Willy, and fighting Willy plus the travelling & non-travelling public and the media.

You know what the UK press is like: if the strike goes ahead, articles about fat cat pilots and distraught holidaymakers will make the headlines. You can't hope for the automatic support that the nurses often get, but please don't allow only stories planted by the enemy to occupy the territory.

Maybe BALPA has a strategy to get public opinion on your side. We just don't know what it is.
Don't underestimate Willy Wash. You can be sure that he has a PR plan ready to roll any time he decides. Probably sooner rather than later.
I hope BALPA will not be caught hopping.

[demomonkey]

Before we get carried away breeching the ramparts and storming the Winter Palace with cries of death to Willy.

Someone else is about to start eating our lunch: www.airfrance.co.uk

There's been alot of talk about 'leadership' and 'professionalism' but we need not lose sight of the big picture.

Pax are consumers and will exercise free will. There is alot of talk about how OS will steal pax from mainline services but have you personally looked at the price of a direct flight between JFK-BRU/CDG etc via the big 3 airlines in Europe? We're the most expensive and the others are cheaper and direct.

If it was your money, who would you fly with?

OS is a genuine threat to our T&Cs not initially but definitely down the line. However taking the nuclear option of striking seems like we could win the battle but overall lose the war. Moral victories are hollow.

I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.

[CaptainProp]

Why is it that pilots need public support if we go on strike, but if you are a farmer or a buss driver you dont?!!?! The way I see it we do not need public support because we are not protecting public T&Cs, we are protecting PILOTS T&Cs! :yuk::yuk:

All the way!

/CP

[Fargoo]

Why is it that pilots need public support if we go on strike, but if you are a farmer or a buss driver you dont?!!?! The way I see it we do not need public support because we are not protecting public T&Cs, we are protecting PILOTS T&Cs!

Obviously you've never been on strike before. The support you really need however is from your colleagues in BA.

[fruitbat]

The only support we actually NEED is the 3000 BA pilots who are members of BALPA. I think you will find we have that.

[747-436]

Does that fact that expansion has been announced at LCY that will be crewed from mainline add weight to BA's argument that Openskies won't take away jobs from mainline??

[Human Factor]

Danny and mods,

There are still one or two posts remaining from LHR747 which you may or may not wish to dispose of. That said, it could be worth leaving them - perhaps marked so that it is clear they are not from who they say they are. If we're lucky, the source will be named and shamed publicly. Many of us know privately.;)

Whilst people are perfectly entitled to come on here with opposing points of view, in fact that's the whole point of PPRune, I object in the strongest terms to people masquerading as those they are not. Those of us who have been here a while will probably have read and absorbed the very large disclaimer regarding this.:=

It is fundamentally dishonest and indicates that these individuals have neither valid arguments or sufficient credibility, both of which are essential to post on a serious topic such as this. Funny where these particular sources eminated from.....:oh:

I honestly wonder how we still manage to be in business.

HF

[demomonkey]

I think we should leave the posts on as this isn't a Stalinist state just yet. And just because someone disagrees with us doesn't mean they should be censored or abused.

Enough has already been written regarding the pros and cons of this subject. A few posts from a 'loose cannon' attempting to cause mischief isn't going to sway the overall community.

[Dave Bloke]

Does that fact that expansion has been announced at LCY that will be crewed from mainline add weight to BA's argument that Openskies won't take away jobs from mainline??

No. The current Scope agreement is clear about operations from London bases. Open Skies is about mainline aircraft flying from bases in mainland Europe where mainline crews have the right to live and work and being crewed by non-mainline crews on lower terms and conditions.

[Hand Solo]

OS is a genuine threat to our T&Cs not initially but definitely down the line. However taking the nuclear option of striking seems like we could win the battle but overall lose the war. Moral victories are hollow.

I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.

Well that puts you in a tricky position indeed. The time has come to make a choice, you are either with BALPA and oppose BA's plans, or you decide not to fight BA and by default support their position. Now that BA have closed negotiations there really isn't a middle ground anymore. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, we deal with this now or not at all.

[Dave Bloke]

If you are a (BA) BALPA member and the result of a strike ballot is "Yes", you will be expected to side with the majority, irrespective of your vote - hence the term "Union". Exactly the same as if there is a "No" vote, those in favour will not be able to strike.

[stinker99]

Please, can anyone give me a valid reason why a pilot joining open skies should not be placed on the BA mainline seniority list.

BALPA has accepted that anyone from mainline who would wish to work in this new venture would do so on lower terms and conditions (and I wonder how popular this would be).

[hautemude]

In every way the best European long haul airline. Maybe demonmonkey has never tried a business class seat in KLM or AF. If not, you should and then you would understand why many choose BA for value and quality regardless of price and will return after the strike is finished.

Good luck folks, but I do hope my son's 75/76 command course goes ahead

[stinker99]

Sometimes I think people forget the considerable personal expense ( £30,000 plus) and risk involved in getting a pilots' licence, with no job guarantee. If one is lucky enough and able to gain employment in this field, shouldn't the terms and conditions reflect this ?

How many people in other professions fork out that kind of cash and dedication to achieve their goal ?

[Shaka Zulu]

30k? I wish it was, I forked out over 70k over the years to get where I am today!
I still have 35years left in this outfit. A damned sight longer than all of the managers.
So who has INVESTED in this career and who has the most interest in seeing ALL BA flying to be done by guys on the same list.

So if you wouldn't mind, I now go ahead and vote for strike.
I've done everything in my power to hear the companies point of view (personal chats etc) and yet I remain as unconvinced as I was when this faff started. I forfilled my moral obligation to hear both sides of the story but this time I shall not choose to give up even more.
Line in the sand, sorry guys!

[Tandemrotor]

demomonkey
I DO NOT support the company on this issue, but I don't support BALPAs action.

You need to make your choice before Feb 20. There is no middle ground.

I hope you will follow the democratic result of the ballot.

[GS-Alpha]

Openskies will be used as a stick with which to beat mainline pilots. That is unavoidable. However, we can reduce the damage if we can get them on a joint seniority list. I really do not wish to damage our brand through the use of industrial action. This is why I agreed to losing 30% of my pension, rather than strike, just a few months ago. However, to allow Openskies to be totally separate from the BA pilot body would be suicide to a mainline pilot.

Any future dispute between mainline pilots and BA management would result in the management response, "No problem, we'll get openskies to do the work for us instead."

No one wants to strike. You would have to be mad to want to. But BA are leaving us with no choice. This is why I have voted "yes".

[lordsummerisle]

Think that people saying how much they have paid for their own training, £30,000 - £70,000 etc really has any bearing on it. Should be treated as any investment, value of which can go up or down, merely because you chose to spend a fortune to become a pilot doesn't mean that your employers should pay you any more if they don't have to.

[Blank-EFIS]

As a Cityflier pilot , and BALPA member I fully support the mainline stand against Open Skies, but i have to believe that the precident may have allready been set.
Cityflier are flying BA aircraft , Wearing BA uniform and providing the BA product day in day out on lower T&C's.
When we were created from the division and sale of Connect, The BACC refused to apply the same principals as you wish to do now, as we were classed as not suitable to be part of mainline BA.
I personally feel that this decision may come back to haunt the BACC, Scope clause or not!:ugh: :ugh:

Good luck to you all if it does go to the wire !!!!!

[411A]

Cityflier are flying BA aircraft , Wearing BA uniform and providing the BA product day in day out on lower T&C's.
When we were created from the division and sale of Connect, The BACC refused to apply the same principals as you wish to do now, as we were classed as not suitable to be part of mainline BA.
I personally feel that this decision may come back to haunt the BACC, Scope clause or not!



How inconvenient this must be, Blank-EFIS, for you to point this out now....especially for the mainline BA pilots.
Their 'OK for us, you folks to the back of the bus' attitude will do the mainline guys in every time....seems they have alienated quite a few.
Quite typical.
BALPA is a strawman....I can only laugh at their collective actions, however ineffective they are likely to be.:}

[Hand Solo]

How inconvenient? Not at all! Cityflyer Mk 2 was indeed drawn from the remains of BACon using the RJ100 fleet that had been nicked from Cityflyer Mk 1. The BACC offered to put all the BACX pilots on the RJ100 fleet on the BA seniority list. The BACX CC turned it down and the RJ fleet remained outside mainline for ever. They had their chance. The RJs remain specific, listed and time-limited exceptions to the Scope agreement, and come 2010 they will have to be returned to the lessors or incorporated into mainline. The RJ/Cityflyer issue is done and dusted.

411A -Your comments are as predictable as they are incorrect.

[The Little Prince]

You're right as far as it goes Hand old sport, but I reckon you'll have difficulty convincing the present line crews of CityFlyer. No point in fighting old battles, and personally I hope you win this one for the good of the Industry generally.
However, a decent debater would mince your argument, or at the very least draw a version of precedent from it.
Anyway, as an uninvolved individual, without going too far off thread, could you tell us all what happens to the current CityFlyer Pilots in 2010 when the deal comes to an end? Genuinely interested, albeit only for forms sake - however there are a lot of RJ 100 guys watching this space.....

[Blank-EFIS]

Hand Solo, I agree that the RJ/Cityflyer deal is done and dusted as you put it , but the point i was trying to make is that BA already has a wholly owned susiduary airline working seperate t&c's.
Unfortunately this point may well be the undoing of any argument that BALPA may be able to make.


P.S
Just wondering, How much support Cityflyer will get from mainline when our jobs are on the line after BA decides to replace the RJ's with 318's crewed by mainline pilots ?

[Hand Solo]

It won't be the undoing of the argument as the argument is the breach of the intent of Schedule K. Cityflyer is permitted under the Schedule K agreement. The argument is not about Open Skies or different terms and conditions.

If BA decide to replace the RJs with 318s at LCY then the Citiflyer pilots cannot be laid off as BA has to offer them similar employment elsewhere in the BA group, which to all intents and purposes means mainline. I'm sure BA pilots would offer moral support and some behind the scenes advice from the BACC, but direct industrial support would be classed as secondary action and as such is illegal, just as it woud be if you offered direct support to the BACC in this dispute.

TLP - when the leases come to an end Cityflyer can either wind up the operation or switch to RJ85s which are permitted under Scope. Given that they are already moving to find 85's I'd say the latter option is by far the most likely.

[Hotel Mode]

P.S
Just wondering, How much support Cityflyer will get from mainline when our jobs are on the line after BA decides to replace the RJ's with 318's crewed by mainline pilots ?

Plenty. as an entrant from CFE mk1 I thought the BACC handled it pretty well. CFE mark 2 just took over the BA connect operation that was already fait accompli as far as BA were concerned. The mainline A318 operation at city must make merging Cityflyer into mainline a sensible option as the fleet comes up for renewal. I believe the RJ85s are expansion not replacement for the RJ100s?

[Tandemrotor]

Blank-EFIS

There are a number of aspects to your post that need correcting. The birth of 'BA Cityflyer' may have occured during the break up of BACON, however, this is not of course when the transfer occured of the RJ100s (and 16 aircraft's worth of pilot jobs) from mainline to BACX.

This was in the period immediately post 11 sep 01, and they joined another subsidiary airline (BAR) flying from BHX and MAN.

It was BA management THEN that saw a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity to conduct a wholesale transfer of mainline jobs to a low cost (low wage) subsidiary! (is this sounding familiar?)

Once that happened (and please bear in mind what perilous state the airlines were ALL in at that time) the deed was largely done, and a 'scrap' ensued over who would 'fly' the aircraft that represented a VERY significant expansion to this BA franchise.

There is no doubt that all on this side of the fence wanted those aircraft flown by pilots on the BA seniority list.

Why the hell wouldn't we?

I know a deal WAS offered to incorporate the RJ100 into our 'scope' agreement covering 100 seat jets!, which would have seen all the subsidiary's RJ pilots on the master seniority list.

This offer was not acceptable to your union, because it excluded E145, and Dash8 pilots. (aircraft with less than 100 seats)

British Airways were extremely happy to see this offer fail (clear blue water between BACON pilots and BA pilots - no 'contamination')

Of course the operation has now morphed, and is unrecognisable from the original concept!

You need to be aware that NO BA pilot is happy with the idea that your (BA) work is being flown by pilots not on the master seniority list.

Yes I agree. It may have taken many at LHR longer to see, than those of us more closely associated, but in a sense, that's no great crime!

The most important thing you need to be aware of is this. Come 2010, the current deal allowing the RJ100 to operate outside of 'scope' comes to an end. At that time, if BA Cityflyer wishes to continue flying RJ100s, the entire operation reverts to mainline. That means you get a BA seniority number.

The question you need to ask yourself is this; If balpa fail in the weeks ahead, the union will effectively be broken. If that happened, what do you think we could do for you in 2010 'when' BA renege on their agreement?

That would result in further attacks on ALL our T&Cs.

If we fail, it will directly, and rapidly affect YOUR future.

Better hope we prevail, eh?

[900]

Dave Bloke yesterday says that Sch K Scope is clear about flying from London bases. I think if you read it again, it will be clear about flying from LGW and LHR specifically. It is however clear on UK flying on planes that are specified at 100 seats or more and the 318 gets in on that basis rather than the former.

[Blank-EFIS]

Sorry if my first post was not clear, I am 100% behind our mainline colleagues and their dispute with our parent company.

I was part of BRAL before the "merger" of BRAL/Brymon/BAR and remember all the infighting over who would fly the RJ, and was very surprised to see the RJ flown by BACX pilots ( and a few secondees )after the dust had settled.But as you pointed out , this was a management decision to outsource work and as such , has possibly already set the precident.


Also, on reading Schedule K section 2.9 it does specifically mention BACX (citiexpress) not Cityflyer as well as BA itself.(and as i am not a lawyer, i dont know if that would have any bearing on the scope clause itself).

On the subject of a place on the seniority list, i have to admit that i would like to see BACF replace the rj100's with 85's and remain outside of mainline, as i feel that the LCY operation is a very specialist operation and is suited to a smaller operational base.

At the end of the day , as hand solo put it, the cityflyer issue is done and dusted. I was simply trying to put across the idea that a precident may already be set. :ugh:

[900]

Stinker99, you ask for a valid reason why OS pilots should not be on the BA master seniority list.
Why would BA be against this? Seems simple enough with no obvious costs implications (at least until OS pilots get to bid onto Mainline fleets).
Perhaps we should ask why does the BACC (supported supinely by BALPA) feel that the seniority list affords the protection they seek from:
1. undermining Mainline T&Cs
2. off-shoring "their" flying work
3. Growing the OS business by shrinking LHR operations
4. Diverting (as yet unplanned and unknown) investment beyond what has already been identified to OS as the more likely to generate greater longer term returns.
Because if, as I suspect, the plan is that the OS CC will be a BACC puppet and will work towards undermining the lower cost base and squeezing on flexibility over time to the extent that you will eventually be unable to see the join, I think you have your answer on BA's motive.

[koi]

All,
Please don't tell me that you did not see this coming. Long overdue. Ticklish to watch. The market always wins, so don't go picking a fight that you will not win. If what goes round comes round, then this is almost devine from an observers view.
Remember Dan Air and EOG, the infighting, the pension wrangling,the suicides.... oh didn't you know. Remember the BA long haul Capt who on retirement wrote a natty piece in the log on how to enhance your pension by signing on for the dole as an unemployed B74 pilot.
Ahh yes. What a credit to our great profession. If you really want to see how it is done then look to the medics. They got it right from day one with the Royal Colleges, controlled the entry candidates, migration and quality. They might be piss poor at resource management but the rest they have by the balls. We have got it horribly wrong and yes, this is the result. What a mess. Now is not the time for latin, there was a time though, in the Log. How does schadenfreude grab you.
Koi

[Hand Solo]

And your post is about what exactly? How about making a cogent point instead of just assailing us with rhetoric?

[koi]

Hand job

The point is, this is simply wonderful to watch. It was always going to happen to BA and gives me a nice warm feeling in the trouser department. The market will win.
Koi

[Hand Solo]

I think you'd better lay off the sherries before posting in the future.

[Joetom]

Open skys, one 757 to start with. Non BALPA pilots.

LCY-NYC two 318's to start with. BALPA pilots.

I wonder which fleet will grow the quickest.

My guess is the 757/767 or whatever will grow very quick.

The 318's may be very slow to grow, or never start.

Worth to mention, BA only mention BALPA staff with this LCY-NYC operations, no mention of any other staff members that may have an interest, think I smell a rat.

[Dysag]

What Koi didn't quite say, but does need to be said, is that medics don't ever accuse their colleagues of incompetence in public (as is the daily bread of PPrune). They side with each other in a way that's unknown to pilots. In dollar terms, that solidarity is worth a lot.

[Dave Bloke]

BA Director of Flight Operations Endorses Strike!

In a letter to BA flight crew, the new Director of Flight Operations has stated:

"Please vote in the ballot but use your vote to protect the long-term interests of all mainline pilots"

Couldn't have put it better myself. ;)

[Open Lies]

Ive done EXACTLY what he has asked me to do !

I have voted to protect my long term future

A big fat Xin the YES box . . .


A very, very sad day for me :bored:

[Airbus Unplugged]

Better a big fat X in the YES box on the ballot paper,

than a miserable B-scale for the whole industry.

[The Big Easy]

What date will the ballot results be known?

TBE.

[lexoncd]

The market will dictate the outcome in the long run. The rise of the low cost carriers at the expense of the short haul operation is just one example of how all too sadly times have changed.

I recall the integration or lack of it from all crews not on the 737-400 at Dan Air. Remembr how you all stood up for the regional guys when the deal with Flybe was done.

Management are spoiling for a fight they know to be long overdue. To think that a solitary 757 will be used to test the resolve is quite interesting. if they were serious about their plans there would have been a full plan, secrecy until the exact launch and a full and proper integrated site...

[the heavy heavy]

lexoncd, what have the dan air/fly-be details got to do with anything!

bitter? or maybe just bored at waterworld and fancy a quick stir?

we are not asking anybody to help us, we are going to take industrial action to secure our futures and t&c's. we will also be ensuring that the route to a job at BA is open to more, not less, pilots.

ba's management, the new irish led pitbulls, can have their fight. i'm not sure what depresses me most, working for ww or being in an industry that has people paying to get jobs, working for free and with their niave and childish 'dreams' dragging ALL our t&c's down. it's ww dream to have wannabes willing to bankrupt themselves to work for peanuts so that they can walk round airports wearing cheap uniforms and ray-bans.

our fight over open skies is a fight that ALL will benifit if we win. all those bitter anti-ba muppets sitting at doncaster int waiting and hoping for their DEC's in the aftermath of the strike are the very people that ww is relying on to expand OS and pay pilots less.

anybody joining BA at the moment needs to think long and hard about the wisdom of that choice. anybody joining OS needs help.

[Hairman Teages]

If the BA pilots fail and management wins then it will be the beginning of the end for everyone in civil aviation in the UK. Once the aiming point/benchmark gets lowered......:mad:

All pilots and especially BALPA should have turned to the Dft after the liquids security changes last year and said that there would be no aviation in the UK until a sensible set of rules were put in place. Instead we just kept the show on the road. Having spent almost 3 decades keeping the show on the road and going the extra mile my payment will be less of a pension for a shorter time. Anyone just starting is going to get completely scr@wed unless BALPA win this one.

You can sit and laugh from the sidelines but would you want to be a passenger on a BA a/c after the strike ballot result is announced whatever the result? That gives BA about 17 days to pass the olive branch. The next few months will be a dangerous time to fly - for everone.

Like its an anagram.

[Tandemrotor]

anybody joining OS needs help.

Anybody joining OS needs to look at the recruitment ban!

This WILL get very nasty. I wish I wasn't caught in the middle, but I have NO choice!

people who DO have a choice need to bear in mind you will be held to account for your 'choice'!

[DickChomh]

By Whom?

either make a threat or don't.Industry standards have already dropped...openskies is now paying the going rate..it compares to everyother uk carrier, better in places and worse in others but nevertheless it is the current going rate.
All you are protecting is your T&C's, outside the BA bubble they went years ago.
I can't blame you for trying to retain them, but dont go making vague threats to OS joiners for accepting a deal that is industry normal.If BA dosn't do OS then somebody else will.

Outside of BA nobody could care less about balpa.

[Georgey]

Dick really does have a name to suit

[DickChomh]

As i said they're just opinions,and if I was BA I would agree..(fair point?)..But the ball was dropped by the unions years ago,principally by lack of union repersentation in the low cost operators.Will BALPA win ?,possibly,but that only secures the T&C'S in BA, it will not change industry standard.Don't claim to fight outside your ring.

If others opinions (and I agree with you!) contradict your own, please keep it professional and rebut with coherient fact...cheap shots are to easy and below us.

[Hand Solo]

But the ball was dropped by the unions years ago,principally by lack of union repersentation in the low cost operators.

Perhaps that BALPA representation in Easyjet was a figment of my imagination. I believe Ryanair spent an awful lot of money suing BALPA over REPA too. Unsuccesfully I might add. If there's no representation in the LoCos it's because there aren't enough members pushing for it, not because BALPA is uninterested.

Outside of BA nobody could care less about balpa

Try telling that to Britannia and Virgin crews.

[bullshot]

Where is this 'ban' chaps? I am a paid up member of BALPA and have not received notification of any ban. I cannot find reference to any ban on the BALPA website.
So, if there is a ban, perhaps BALPA should notify its members - until it does pilots can feel free (if they want to) to apply to any Airline that they desire.
BTW - a wagging finger on Pprune does not constitute a ban - just, it would appear to me, an attempt at intimidation.
When a BALPA ban appears, I will certainly not be contravening it - unlike many BA Pilots in OZ in 1989! - but of course most of you Chaps were still at school then...
Cheers
BS

[papa2andcharlie]

IFALPA Homepage, bottom right:

http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitmentban/08IND061%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20-%20BALPA.pdf

[Open Lies]

.

The IFALPA recruitment ban looks pretty real to me..... :\ (as previously discussed on page 17 of this thread.)

http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitmentban/08IND061%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20-%20BALPA.pdf


http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2397/ifalparecruitmentbanbaorl0.jpg

[overstress]

...and around we go again!

Dickchomnh: if the perceived industry leader manages to lower its terms, then what message does that send out to the rest of the industry?!

So I refute that it only affects BA.

Not interested in fighting outside the ring, thanks.

BA pilots are engaged in their own fight and your support is welcome, but only in a moral sense.

But I appreciate you are just trying to wind-up the Nigels but perhaps you are a tad short on facts? The ban on recruitment for example :rolleyes:

[411A]

These BA BALPA folks will have about as much success as the 49'ers did at CX...the bottom will fall out, leaving them with egg on their collective faces.

Their time has come and gone, unions (in nearly every industry today, not just airlines) have a much less collective voice than even a few years ago, and it will continue.
Folks who don't wake up to this very basic fact will be sore losers...personified.

[overstress]

411A: Can't you sleep? It's 0530 in Arizona... will you promise to resign from the forum when 'these BA BALPA folks' (me, my colleagues and friends) prove you very wrong? No, I didn't think so... how about a promise to eat your hat instead? Don't bother to reply to me as I'm just about to place you on ignore, so I won't see it - Cheers! :}

[James T. Kirk]

Leave it Kevin, he's not worth it!

[M.Mouse]

....unlike many BA Pilots in OZ in 1989!

Did any BA pilots work in Oz during the 1989 fiasco?

[Caudillo]

Putting the guy on ignore is not going to change the facts. I don't care for a lot of his posts but despite your ostrich reflex, he has it spot on. Trade unionism is a dying breed in the UK.

[Simmans]

I browsed to this site several days ago in an attempt to find out what the grievance was all about.
My reason for doing so is ultimately selfish, as I've booked the family across the pond for a holiday at end of March.

Though annoyed we've been unlucky enough to be attempting to jet off in the middle of potential industrial action, I must admit, that having read many of the postings here, and also browsing to the BALPA site, I would tend to side with you for taking this action. In truth, I'm more angry with the seeming intransigence of BA management, dragging the company through the mire again in an attempt to bring about a reduction of your T & C's by the back door.

I do hope that a 'peaceful' resolution will still be possible and that you manage to get the company to see sense. Given the recent profits forecast, it does seem bizarre that your management should see fit to potentially destroy the company over the well earned pay of those who made those profits possible in the first place?!?

Going back to my 'selfish' reasons once more, my booking, for non-flexible business class tickets were made with a 3rd party travel company (lest that makes any difference) If things do come to the worst, would I be correct in assuming I'd not be eligible for any refund given the cancellation was caused by Industrial Action' ie 'outside BA's Control'? Where exactly would I stand in such a situation, other than the proverbial 'Creek with no paddle!'

Best wishes for a speedy & successful resolution, and apologies if, as a Newbie, I've wandered slightly off topic on this my first posting! -I'm only self loading cargo after all!:O

[M.Mouse]

Trade unionism is a dying breed in the UK.

I would have to disagree. The way I see it is that trade union power has been curbed to an acceptable level when compared to the ruinous abuse of power by Scargill, McGahey, Scanlon and other assorted left wing militants in the late 60s and early 70s.

Trade union members can take a stand in a dispute but have to comply with the legislation giving ALL members the opportunity to vote (and in private), give the employer statutory notice of any union action and in carrying out that action an employee does run certain risks as does the union as well should the union not comply properly with the law.

It does serve to emphasise how serious the issue is that BALPA are prepared to lead its BA members into a dispute that 99% of us believe is justified but would all rather was not being forced upon us by a management who must think we are all complete idiots.

411A appears to hate unions, BALPA and especially BA pilots as he never misses an opportunity to make provocative and antagonistic posts on a thread whenever one or preferably all three are involved.

[overstress]

I don't care for a lot of his posts but despite your ostrich reflex...

My neck is short and fat. I prefer to keep my blood pressure down, hence the ignore.

Trade unionism may be a dying breed in the UK. That is irrelevant if there is a large strike mandate in this dispute, and the action actually takes place with the desired result.

Watch this space...

[Shark Slayer]

M.Mouse If they worked for Britannia they might have!

[Hand Solo]

Putting the guy on ignore is not going to change the facts

Fortunately 411As posts rarely relate to the facts of the case. He is nothing more than a reactionary old union-buster unburdened by knowledge of employment law or industrial history. 411A is the Daily Mail of management pilots and his posts are rather like a midge bite, irritating but entirely inconsequential. I'd quite like to put him on my ignore list but I feel a strange personal responsibility to point out what utter garbage he spouts, lest any free thinking reader of PPRuNe believe he has something worthwhile to say.

[The Sandman]

Methinks 411A needs to remember that the world works in cycles. We are currently somewhere in the downswing of unionism - probably near the nadir, that was caused by (a probably much needed) reaction to the excesses of militant unionism as referred to above. But we now appear to be in the period in which similar excesses of management engender a unionizing response that reverses the trend. Watch this space over the next 10 years or so...

[M.Mouse]

M.Mouse If they worked for Britannia they might have!

But that is not quite the same thing which is why I posed the question.

As far as I am aware no BA pilots worked in Oz during the mass resignation in 1989.

I do in fact know one pilot who did. However he was not freelance and was working for a British airline who were operating in Australia at the time to fill the gap caused by the dispute. He had not long qualified and was deep in debt so was faced with a dilemma, resign on a point of principle or go where he was told by his employer.

I digress.

[lexoncd]

I fear that if you were to ask any of the SLF left stranded at Heathrow during the industrial action of recent years how they feel about another BA stike then the answer is clear.

Many other sectors of the UK have seen changes to their long established working practices. Heaven forbid even the chaps at Vauxhall and Ford at Speke accepted some years ago that to preserve their operations in the Uk things had to change.

GP's, Banking sector you name it they've all experienced change......

The question is dealing with the change and ensuring that a satisfactory deal is obtained. heaven forbid if there were sufficient slots at Heathrow to allow a true competitor to BA. Here we have BA taking what they're good at to a competitors door....encouge it don't fight it.

[randomair]

lexoncd,

"Here we have BA taking what they're good at to a competitors door....encourage it don't fight it."

Have you read the previous posts by BA pilots? Because they are encouraging it, just not solely under the managements own terms. All they want is a single seniority list, Is that too much to ask? Obviously management have a hidden agenda somewhere, and that has been discussed already.

randomair

[Flap 80]

I wonder why BALPA offered so little support to those 185 Dan Air pilots,the majority of whom were BALPA members,when they were unfairly dismissed in October 1992.

Over the next 2 years BALPAs reccomendation was that those pilots should accept BAs offer of GBP 1500 each, subsequently increased to GBP 2000 each because they did not stand a chance of winning at the Industrial Tribunal which was the target of the Pilots Action Group.

The end result ,as is well known ,was that the Croydon Industrial tribunal found in the pilots favour and eventually a sum of GBP 3 Million was paid to those Pilots.
Now BALPA appear to be giving unconditional support to OS pilots who do not as yet even have contracts or an airline to work for.

[Mick Stability]

For all those who are concerned about being left in the lurch by those nasty striking pilots; consider this.

About 40 years ago, the high seas were plied by British merchant sailors of the highest calibre.

Now the English Channel is peppered with the wrecks of flagged out carriers and foundered vessels. Our (diminishing and hopelessly underresourced) Search and Rescue, RNLI, and Coastguard personnel are regularly called to pick hapless and frightened foreign sailors out of the cruel sea.

Now think of that situation transferred to the skies over England.

Willy and his mates are about to make themselves very rich by flagging out the sort of people who a couple of weeks ago helped 150 passengers walk away from certain death.

Now what about that holiday?

[No longer ATC]

Well said Mick...Wee Willie has said that OS pilots may not pass BA selection processes.....

[BMed Boy]

You guys are picking the wrong fight. Who cares if your company want to start another airline in Europe, what has it got to do with you?
You weren't bothered when I at BMed or others at GB flew from LHR in BA colours, you've done nothing about GSS.
You chickened out over your pensions when that was your business, BA have now recorded big profits and boast about how some of that was from pension savings.
Don't forget Nigel if you go on strike there are plenty of us who are prepared to cross your picket line and help WW beat you. Reject a strike or regret it.
Yes we've got chips on our shoulders before you say it.

[goldcup]

Thanks. For. That.

Maybe next time you reply to a thread, you might want to read some of the stuff that has gone before. Just a suggestion. Otherwise you might make yourself look a bit of a dick. Like you just have.

[Hand Solo]

How is life at bmi these days?

[fruitbat]

BMED....It's funny how in 2001 when Cathay sacked 49 pilots you said,
"This looks like the big one, stick to it chaps and good luck"

So you support Union action when it has nothing to do with you but now you are calling to break a strike and help WW destroy BA Mainline. As if you are even in a position to do so from where you are..... Thats some chip on your shoulder....

[BMed Boy]

That is what I meant about pick the right fight. 49 guys sacked is rather different to your employer starting a new airline and offering new jobs.
Goldilocks I think you will look the knob if you strike. I look forward to seeing you warm your hands by the brazier in true union pose.

[Tandemrotor]

Oh dear.

Not enjoying shorthaul then Chippy?

[fruitbat]

BMI isn't an airline, its a collection of slots waiting to be bought. So when someone does, I guess you'll take it lying down when they don't require your services? You sad, sad loser. What goes around, comes around. Good luck though....

[Halfwayback]

Fruitbat
Hey - just 'cos someone called BMed Boy winds you up with his noxious blathering cxxp - don't knock bmi!

If he has that kind of chip we wouldn't want him either (but then there's nothing to say he works for bmi now) He certainly hasn't got access to the bmi forum that I moderate.

HWB

PS
BMed Boy posted in 2004
I left (BMed)some time ago because of the length of time away from home

I can now also assure you does NOT work for bmi.

[LHR747]

Quote: "Why is it that pilots need public support if we go on strike, but if you are a farmer or a buss driver you dont?!!?! The way I see it we do not need public support because we are not protecting public T&Cs, we are protecting PILOTS T&Cs! All the way! "

If you lose public support (assuming you ever had it in the first place) you lose the argument and strengthen management's hand. It is noted that you equate being a "professional" pilot with that of farmers and bus drivers.

[biddedout]

A good observation Fruitbat and probably spot on.

Just like BRAL was also part of the BMI group and collection of peak time LHR slots when BA bought it. Shortly after grabbing the slots they realised that they had unfortunately inherited an airline. Bugger they thought until they came up with the great idea of using it to rub out BARegional before dumping it.:rolleyes:

[Hand Solo]

If you lose public support (assuming you ever had it in the first place) you lose the argument and strengthen management's hand. It is noted that you equate being a "professional" pilot with that of farmers and bus drivers.

Welcome back Robin/Colin (or whichever of the wunderkinder you are). Nice to see that you are sticking to the LHR747 persona instead of Compass Centre or UKPilot2 but you still aren't convincing anyone. We know you are a BA manager so I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you that I don't need public support for a strike, never expected and it's absence is certainly not going to strengthen your hand. I'll stay out on strike until your puppet masters are dragged back to the negotiating table to thrash out a schedule K that's fit for purpose. I'm sorry if that is not what you wantedfor your new toy airline but the reality is that this project either works with us or not at all.

[Airbus Unplugged]

It is noted that you equate being a "professional" pilot with that of farmers and bus drivers.

I thought that was BA management policy?

[LHR747]

"Human Factor" is masquerading as..."Human Factor". Comments on this site are all posted Anonymously. Have you not noticed?

[LHR747]

Quote form Demomonkey: "I think we should leave the posts on as this isn't a Stalinist state just yet. And just because someone disagrees with us doesn't mean they should be censored or abused. Enough has already been written regarding the pros and cons of this subject. A few posts from a 'loose cannon' attempting to cause mischief isn't going to sway the overall community".


Thank you for your support; although my cannon is firmly focused, not loose as you have eluded.

[Hand Solo]

Yes I had noticed, but we still know you are management, we still know you attempted to masquerade as 3 different users but are actually just one and we can still find out who you are with a little bit of digging. Still it seems unfair that you are required to do the 'lions share' of management dirty work on pprune. Chocks away!

[courtney]

What an arrogant bunch of clowns you Nigels are. So Mick Stability, you boys are the only one's capable of flying aeroplanes heh. Not a sentiment shared with the rest of the aviation world I'm afraid, there are more than a few cock ups in your cupboards. It would seem that you believe the Daily Mail and all aclaiming your 'heroes' for saving 150 pax from certain death, fact is of course apart from a bit of a flare they were as much a pax as the rest. Do grow up. If BA wish to set up another operation that doesn't affect you or your contracts what business is it of yours? People have got to be crazy to book flights with BA, one can never be sure that you prima donnas will bother to turn up for work.

[Hand Solo]

Taken too big a bite of the lemon today Courtney?