Whats wromg at Korean Air ?

[Human Cargo]

Within the last few months there have been a large number of new joining Captain's that have been terminated or have left because of training issues. This is not related to an one specific fleet. but across the fleets.
The reasons vary from not passing the sim check, to issues on the line training, mainly English language problems with the KAL instructor pilots, and the intercockpit communications that are misinterpreted negatively and consequently put down as lack of proceedure. Some of the new hire pilots are just flat walking away from the whole event altogether, frustrated and humilated, because the Koreans treat them like they cannot fly, or have no experience at all!!
If they are recieving new deliveries of Aircraft form Boeing this year and their demand for experienced pilots is high, why is the Flight operations management allowing the Training department to scare away the help?
It seems counter productive.
There has been a rumour that there is an agenda buy the korean Pilots Union to dismiss as many foriegn pilots as possible inorder to strengthen their hand with the company.
What is the real issue here.
Gh Buck

[evyjet]

Same is happening in Asiana. The Korean Pilots seem to be developing a negative attitude to foreigners. Not all the F/Os, most are very respectful, but it has been commented on by many foreign Pilots that some of the F/Os are showing disrespect, and getting harder to fly with.

Suspect it is to make their position stronger with the company. In a way, I can't blame them being pi##ed off, as they (Asiana Union pilots) may never see a command, at least not for many years under the present system.

[Romasik]

Can't help with information, just a comment: Having heard stories about their attitude to trainees, I would only consider Korean Air if I don't have a job and I don't need to pay for my type rating, so I could afford to tear off my epaulets, throw them in the face of that local IP/CP, take my bag and leave the aircraft somewhere at an outside station :mad:. I've heard someone did just that. Otherwise it's a big gamble. I doubt they have newcomers other than desperate for job and/or already type rated.

[flyguykorea]

Are we now making assumptions that there aren't any 'below par' contract foreign pilots on the market?

Don't for a minute think that all the new joining Captains coming to Korean Air (or any airline for that matter) are of high standard. In recent times there have been quite a significant number of foreign pilots chasing the $$$'s and schedule structure of KAL who have just not made the cut for a number of reasons.

Surely any airline has the right to uphold a certain standard for both locals and foreign contractors?

[rwethereyet]

The contracts offered by the various agencies "seem" interesting but what happens when one fails at some stage of the training or later for the various points mentioned in the threads above!? Pretty high investment for a questionable return!?:( IMHO....
RWTY

[rwethereyet]

The contracts offered by the various agencies "seem" interesting but what happens when one fails at some stage of the training or later for the various points mentioned in the threads above!? Pretty high investment for a questionable return!?:( IMHO....
RWTY

[Atlantic Baron]

Korean Air has a unique atmosphere. Training with this airline has always involved cultural difficulties for foreign captains. The operation is standard Boeing and can be quite a surprise for pilots who arrive from airlines like BA which have developed quite different operating styles. I can't deny that this combination has caused big problems for some people in training. Make no mistake, many perfectly good applicants have been failed.
Against this, KAL is an airline which is trying hard to improve. I enjoyed flying with almost every co-pilot on my roster and had a rewarding and interesting five years with KAL. It was too late for me, but I believe that retirement age has now been upped to 65.
It's a pity that KAL has been given such a bad name. For contract pilots this can be a good destination. I am certain that there are many worse places to be in the airline world.

[manincrz2937]

Hello, guys~

Some of you guys are thinking that the tough training environment and high failure rate are coming from hostile Union pilots.
But most (especially in Asiana all of) of check pilot has nothing to do with Union. They are scabs.

Surely some of pilots don’t like the arrival of ex-pat captains.
You know what?
KAL and Asiana have many experienced F/O who have been locked in right seat.

Union pilots can think KAL and Asiana hire ex-pat captains to neutralize union.
Non-union pilot can think newly hired captains just snatch left seats in front of their noses.
Korean government doesn’t recognized foreigners’ labor right. Foreign contractors can’t make legal union of their own.

And one more.
You should know about latent military culture of this country. It is smuggled in deep inside of their brain. Real extraordinary cultures. You never can find anything similar in this world.
Look at the all senior instructor or check pilot’s background. They were a former Korean Air force Instructors. Beating their student after training was common in their age. They think it can discipline their student. You are dealing with them. They don’t need well trained CFI license like FAA .

Don’t go there.

There are many place to go except KAL or Asiana.

The roster is suck.
The pay is not good enough.
The atmosphere is hostile.
The people are racist.

Why there?
Are you desperate that much?:ugh:

[Samuel Adams]

Looks like another serious case of sour grapes syndrome...

KAL is not Paradise, but is much better than you describe. The touchy-feely coziness of some Western cultures is certainly missing here, but I actually think it is a good thing. Never had a problem in almost seven years (never made a Korean friend either). This is a solid operation, maintenance is outstanding, schedule is like clockwork, pay is average. Good place to do your work and go home, not for socializing or trying to "make a difference".

[Ace Springbok]

Samuel, what 2937 wrote has much truth in it; it's only that many have been lucky enough NOT to have tasted the DARK side of KAL. Those unfortuate enough to experience the DAK side live to regret their decision to come based on the " glowing " endorsement of well meaning friends ( and also crooks who wants to swell up the expat numbers so that they hoped to be appointed " expat somebody " in management ).

[Asianlonghaul]

Just wondering if a contract (2 years) expat B767 Capt in Asiana can move to KAL on the 777 with this deal where they pay for the rating? Can this only be done at the end of the 2 year contract or can it be done with some kind of "Get out" clause before the 2 years are up? KAL has a better commuting contract.
Many thanks

[ELAC]

Sam ...

If you've been there for 7 years then you have certainly seen some of your friends step on landmines at KAL. Everything just hunky-dorey and then ... boom! If you're lucky it turns into a "You must be punished." round of penalties and training. If you're unlucky ... well, you know how that song goes too.

Asian L/H ...

You better make the right pick on your first shot. Korean Air and Asiana are not permitted to hire pilots (or sim instructors) previously employed by the other, regardless of the completion of your contract or your reason for leaving. I know of a few cases of pilots leaving one, working somewhere else for a number of years and then going to the other, but it's pretty rare.

ELAC

[ironbutt57]

Reckon I'll just socialize w your ladies in DXB, and leave the flying to y'all who can't:}:ok:

[555orange]

You cant have joined these companies without expecting some of this from the start. We have all seen and heard this before many times with other asian companies. This is a Asian cultural thing...and is very broad based. If you work in Asia you better expect this. There is no place for western progressive thinking. Common sence is just a concept and is almost never used. The best thing you can do for yourself if you want to be a contract pilot in asia is memorize the FOM/AOM. That and that alone will get you respect. Its what they will live by....even if it doesnt make sense or not. "Do as your told" and thats it. Everything else....is just ...

[mohdawang]

KAL have many close calls recently and it's a matter of time when an expat pilot become a statistic in some major prang; maybe whilst deadheading.

[Samuel Adams]

We would certainly be much safer deadheading on an Indonesian airline, Mr mohdawang. Could you please suggest one?

[mohdawang]

Nusantara Airlines!!! Certainly NOT ADAM Air, my dear Adams!!!!

[Capt. John Doe]

Why would you want to work in Korea - or even Japan at that? The culture sucks and they treat you like a second-class citizen (it more predominant in Korea). If you have something good to say, especially about the damn Koreans, you've had too much kool-aid to drink. It's a sh*%&^ place to work and you're not really wanted; unless you're absolutely desperate for a job. I'd like to know what flyguykorea is drinking to defend these bastards so much....

[Asianlonghaul]

Thanks ELAC (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=2821) . Is it Korean CAA law that a pilot can't transfer from one airline to the other? If not why the no transfer rule?

[ELAC]

Asian L/H


I believe it was some arcane element of Korean labour law, not specifically something dreamed up by KMOCT or the airlines.

This is the way it was a couple years ago. Someone has suggested to my that some contractors are saying this situation has changed. All I can say is: if so, ask for proof in the form of someone who has jumped from Brown to Blue or vice versa. Otherwise it's just a theory.

ELAC

PS ... Anyone who knows anything about Korea has to be a bit sad today over the fire that has destroyed Namdaemun, the historic south gate to Seoul. It has been there for more than 600 years and was considered national treasure #1 in Korea. I walked by it and looked at it many times during my time at the Seoul Plaza and it was indeed very beautiful piece of Korea's history. My heart goes out to my Korean friends over the loss.

[Asianlonghaul]

Thanks just heard second hand via an old friend that there is no way to go from KAL to Asiana ever but it is possible to go from Asiana to KAL if no longer employed by Asiana. Don't know if this is true 100% ?
Any ideas where tips on the Air Law can be found?

[speedtwoten]

Asianlonghaul :

tips on the Air Law can be found?

pm me your email, I have some Korean Air Law tips;), but you are been warned condition there:)

[Asianlonghaul]

Many thanks speedtwoten (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=76900) have PM'd you.

[speedtwoten]

LongHaul check your email, let know you got it:ok: and good luck

[Asianlonghaul]

Many thanks for the info, have been away so have not looked closely yet. Do they have an answer sheet? As I did not see one. Either way a great help!

[blueoreas]

I just wrote the exam yesterday. I don't know who was from where but 35 people total. Very easy questions... ELT battery life question, ICAO annex, rules of air, light signals, etc. and one I have never studied before nor in the air law books. 30 minutes and 25 questions. It took most of people 5 mins to finish it.

[stator vane]

i flew the brown 734/5 nov 96 to mar 98.

was offered 738 with the blue jan 07 but declined.

cheers-

[flyguykorea]

Capt John Doe:

Why would you want to work in Korea - or even Japan at that? The culture sucks and they treat you like a second-class citizen (it more predominant in Korea). If you have something good to say, especially about the damn Koreans, you've had too much kool-aid to drink. It's a sh*%&^ place to work and you're not really wanted; unless you're absolutely desperate for a job. I'd like to know what flyguykorea is drinking to defend these bastards so much....


No need to answer your question. The attitude in your post sums it all up. Culturally inept springs to mind.

[FlyingCroc]

I have also an interview scheduled, now I heard also rumours of trouble at Korean. Is it really that the quality of the applicants has dropped (in this case the selection did not do a good job) or is the problem that the Korean pilots try to get rid of the expats because the feel discriminated? If later is the case it would be quite a risk to leave a present company and go through all this trouble only to end up leaving a few weeks later. :eek:
Does anybody have some more information on this subject.

[stator vane]

is go there and find out for yourself--

it's worth the risk---at least to go to the screening---

no one else can really tell you---

[TWN PPL]

Senior Kal Expat Pilot Had Different Kind Of Training. Training Without Manuals In English. Now They Have Very Good, Well Written Manuals In Both Korean And English. The Standards And Tolerance Are No Different Then Anyother Airlines Out There. Everybody Who Is Hired; Is Formerly Typed And Very Experienced Flight Crew. The Passing Grade Is Only 70% Or Higher. But... Technically (the Job Is Not Yours Until) The Day You Pass Your Casa Oe Check Ride. The Interview Is Only Formality. Go Figure

[FlyingCroc]

Of course you have your airline job only after you pass all the checks, that is not the problem and it is like that in any airline job.
My question was if there is a feeling of dislike from Korean aircrew against expat, so that many will not pass the exams in the sim or line check on purpose. That is however the claim in this thread.
Can someone shed some light on this?

[gengis]

Flyingcroc:

To answer your question, that has not been the case in my experience. There will be those who disagree with this, but one can only go by his own experience and not by heresay; on this count, i have to say that i have not encountered those "anti" expat feelings. That is not to say others' did not experience it, just that i have not.

Though there be the perennial problems with schedules & $$$, on balance it has been a more than pleasant existence with them thus far (for me).

[flyguykorea]

My question was if there is a feeling of dislike from Korean aircrew against expat, so that many will not pass the exams in the sim or line check on purpose.

5 years ago, yes. Even 3 years ago, perhaps so. But these days, it's a different kettle of fish with all screenings sims audited by expat QA crew. If you fail the sim these days, I would say the feeling of dislike from Korean aircrew is the least of your worries.

[FlyingCroc]

I know it is not easy anywhere, we just try to do our job and live our lives. Be it in the sandpit or China or wherever. I am professional with my fellow pilots, FO, I like good CRM, never had any issues in life, neither in technical or flying. I know the schedules would be tough but there is also the advantage of home base. It is no better at my airline besides we have no decent roster on top of it.

Thank you for your post.

[spacepodlife]

Whats wromg at Korean Air ?

Definitely the spelling...!

[CAPTDOUG]

I recently finished my screening interview with KAL. I have over 5000 hours as a Captain in the 777. I busted because something about the sim. I have no idea what that could be. I have never busted a check ride in 30 years as an airline pilot. (major USA carriers). I had no F/O in my sim so no help that way and still was a good ride I thought. I was told by come working expats that to watch out for the ex military instructors, they can be brutal and unforgiving. I had one. There is no recourse or review board. I'm out!

[fullforward]

Doug, I feel very sorry for you.
But be assured you're not loosing much of a deal.
Several other professionals with your experience level has been failed, for some f.....g sad psycos that unfortunately KAL still empower. Some good friends of mine were busted as well for nothing.
Funny is that every time I consider go for an interview with KAL I know this bull**** are still happening. So I realize that it doesn't worth try because it's not serious. Unless, of course, you're in urgent need of a job.
It's just a lottery, if the clown of the day is on a good mood, you're OK, otherwise, you're out!

[ramiyns]

Hello everyone,

I have interview coming in March with KAL, Captain A330
I have no clue as to what will happen in the interview.
Any help will be very much appreciated .

Thank you all.

[mohdawang]

Treat your sim check like a lottery...if you get through, well and good. If they flunk you, they save you from some agonising decisions later.

[fullforward]

Nobody really knows what that freaks are looking for: it's always a total surprise, some below average guys are happy there, other impeccable professionals have been busted. Some say there are some internal politics involving local pilots associations, others say that is just the kimchi was not good enough at the day...
Go for a lottery. BUT DO A FAVOR TO YOURSELF: KEEP SECURE YOUR PRESENT JOB TILL YOUR FINAL LINE CHECK AT LEAST.

[Tongkat Ali]

Heard that many riff-raffs slipped through as they stuck closely ' cook book ' style to all the tips provided by fellows who slipped through earlier. Consummate operators exhibiting good airmanship however do get chopped by tight arse IPs and " green eyed " Alteon checkers. Did not quite believe everything but a buddy with experience in both KAL's training/checking and audit dept. pretty much confirm that the stories ain't very far from the truth.

[billabongbill]

True, not very far from reality. There are riffraffs who cleared not only the hoops but became instructors too! Amazing but true. There are world class accomplished aviators too and they help keep things on an even keel.

[stator vane]

fit most everywhere i have been!

the colours of the aircraft and uniforms change, but that stays the same!

[taufupok]

Heard from a former colleagues that many Alteon checkers have NEVER flown the aircraft type they are assigned. THEY ONLY QUALIFY ON THE SIMULATOR and treat everything the see or occuring in the sim as the real exact thing!!! Virtual Pilot Examiners!

[Jetney]

T.A wrote..." green eyed " Alteon checkers; what have they to be green eyed about? It's already easy money, what have they to envy?

[Marsh Outlaws]

Jetney, well it means that in your PC DO NOT OVER EXCELL or correct the Alteon checker even if he seem wrong ( if he forgets to cancel " double speed " or the SIM has lost control loading and he doesn't seem to know ). You would think that only the Orientals have problems with " loss of face "? Well some Alteon sim gods have even worse hang ups with loss of face but they are clever to put a pretty spin to it to appear otherwise!

I know someone who came to grief with a very anal retentive Alteon checker as he is from the third world, articulate and operates proficiently to really rattle some first world sim god with his pointed observation on actual aircraft characteristics, operational issues etc. This sim god had no actual aircraft experience and deem his sim box flying as the epitome of actual aircraft operational characteristics. A few other Alteon are out to put anyone they deem upstarts in " their proper places ". Puerile and infantile characteristics in grumpy mean old men are deeply ingrained, no CRM or fancy spin can purge such DNA imprints.

[Molokai]

Wow, Marsh Outlaws! You must have had it in kimchiland. In NRT crew lounge I did hear of such stories of Alteon checkers. I wonder how you put up with such **** for half a decade; I am sure there are redeeming qualities in the KAL/OZ contracts that seem to attract a whole load of expats there. I heard a relative of George Lucas was a terror there; also some johnny come lately who is the sweetest of angels to some folks he like but a slithery reptilian to those he deem unfit to be up at his level.

Well I have come across such pricks but most of them got their comeuppance in due time.

[oztrekker]

During my time there, several Alteon checkers looked like they belonged to Home Peace Geriatric Care, not in the demanding task of quality instructions/checks during graveyard shifts.

[5LY]

Get off the Alteon guys. I spent 7 years there and was never treated with anyhting but generousity and respect during sim. If you're going to have problems they're going to occur during line training from a small percentage of the trainer/checkers. Even then a good operator with a good attitude will most likely prevail.

That's not to say that there aren't some injustices, but where in the world can you go where you're immune from the odd jerk?

[vbrules]

Pardon my ignorance but as one interested in Korean as B777 skipper what has Alteon got to do with anything?
Do KAL not do their own checks?
My only interaction with Alteon has been woeful but of course that may just have been bad luck.

[Marsh Outlaws]

Quote:
Get off the Alteon guys....

Well it's true that a number of the Alteon guys are great and they do a great job there. However newcomers need to know that there are jerks around and beware.
Been there for several years and they were pleasant times, but I have seen first hand some of those grumpy jerks' antics and I will not leave things unsaid.
I know some KAL expats had close relationships with Alteon guys ( so much so that to prevent any impropriety, guys were banned from Alteon lounge at Songdo ) and surely benefitted in everyway. Some have affinity for their own countrymen, some sick ones will sabotage their own bethren ( to be deem superior, or afraid to be seen as biased ).
The nasty Korean checkers have largely been removed, and generally line training ( OE training ) is much easier now. However the odd jerk of a checker can ruin your life if you throw caution to the wind and leave your present job before your final line check in KAL. Be warned!

[gengis]

Marsh: That pretty much describes a whole load of other airlines too. A lot of it comes down to the adaptability of an individual into a new environment. Some people take to it easy and others dont. As a rule, a newcomer has to make allowances to fit in to the organisation rather than expect the organsiation fit him. It's an imperfect world out there.

Of course luck of the draw plays its part too.