C210 down in Windhoek

[freesky]

According to News reports a c210 has crashed into a house in the Olympia Township.

Looks like no survivors.

Condolences to the families.

[Voel]

And thanks for the assistance by his collegues during that time. They took over controlling while their colleague was relieved from controlling. All occuppants died in the crash, pilot and five passengers. If you can read Afrikaans see the following website: http://www.republikein.com.na/index.php

If you cannot read, look at the picture. So sad. God gave us not enough time to learn from the previous similar accident that occured on the 22th October 2007. Condolence to the breaved families and friends.

[B747ATP]

Another brother with wings has died in the 2nd fatal accident at eros in 3 months, when is someone going to do something about it.

1. If the fault is with maintenance the companies need to be brought to book, or

2. pilot error then the standards need to evaluated and seriously looked at the way the licences are given (eg. exams,practical and theoritical done with DCA) and finally

3. If the ATC's are a contributing factors to these accidents in any way is the training policy and working standards of a poor level.

All these aspects need to be looked at with great urgency, we cannot lose another one of our brothers/sisters in the sky if it can be avoided!!!!:(

From what i heard through the corridors is that the ATC on duty gave the option of the secondary rwy, anyone who has flown in Eros knows that with full fuel and pax and tempretures climbing easily into the 30's (degrees Celcius) during this time of year. Rwy 09/27 which 1008m long is not enough to get safely airborne without struggling to gain altitude over a populated area.:eek: Any Atc with experience "should" now this!

Have lessons from the previous accident really been learnt, i heard that the ATC that was on duty with the Bonni accident has resigned. I wonder if the proper support was offered to the Controller at the end of the day we are all human with emotions!

How long will it take for the guys high up in government to understand the urgency of the current crisis that is griping the whole of southern africa, how many more people have to loose their lives and controllers to loose faith in their skills before things get done the right way!!!

[Voel]

Let's see what happended and than we tackle the bull by the horns:ok:. By the way, our politicians are aware of the current situation, but Rome was not build in one day:ouch:.

[flyboy2]

12/01/2008 13:34 - (SA)
Windhoek - Five tourists were killed when a chartered light aircraft crashed while attempting an emergency landing in a residential suburb of Namibia's capital on Friday.

The pilot of the Cessna 210 plane was also killed, police and accident investigators said on Saturday.

"I was walking home back from the shop when I saw this aircraft flying really low over our area. The next moment, it flew right into that house there," said witness Tjiruripo Tjeriko.

The aircraft burst into flames on impact.

Namibian police spokesperson Angula Amalunga said the six people killed had not been identified.

Five of them are believed to have been foreign tourists on their way to a lodge near Namibia's Etosha Pans game reserve.
Source:http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2250745,00.html

[Icarus208]

Sincere condolences to the family of the pilot and the tourists. May they rest in peace.

I was an instructor myself in Namibia and flew charter for a company their close onto 2000hours around those parts. I fully agree with what was said on the Rwy 09/27, that no-one in their right mind with temperatures soaring way above the 30C can take off from such a short runway and have good obstacle clearance. I dont know what the take off runway was let alone the surface conditions at the time but what I should add is that the training standard in Namibia for such a thing is absolutely appaling. I hurts me seeing an aeroplane make a forced landing and knowing well that the training their is not up to standard....
I got these 43rd Air School "cowboys" come to me for test prep on a C210 and 99% of them were shocking the least to say. Not just them anybody who has a Commercial Pilot licence from anywhere was not ready for a C210. That aeroplane is not your friend in the early stages of flying and if you manage your time correctly and flying that aeroplane you will be seriously hurt.
I tried to set a standard in my company that I flew for to do at least 3 "simulated" forced landings every month. Many sectors you were alone and had the oppurtunity to do it. I even had the blessing from the CFI and the Big boss. Not a lot of companies do that, but wait all that effort fell on deaf ears and still we hear of all these accidents in Namibia due to forced landings gone wrong....I cant say whether it was one of those cases yet because I wasnt there to witness it myself...

What i like to add is that something must be done on the training side of things otherwise more and more of these accidents are going to happen. The C210 over there are getting older and older and the accidents are going to happen more often. The training must improve drastically and it must happen now.

If anybody has similar experience please elaborate.

Icarus

[Shrike200]

Just a warning - the Republikein website has a link to more photo's of the crash, including what appears to be a charred body. I make no judgement (or rather, I won't mention my opinion of this idea), but rather avoid looking at that unless you're ready for it. Some things you just don't need to see.

[freesky]

Hi Voel.

I would have liked to help but unfortunately I don't have an ATC lic and accidents are not my thing. You identified the wrong guy!

I was not there.

These pictures are no good! Please keep some integrity.

[planecrazi]

Condolences to the victims.

Eros was the first place I got a flying job, flying those C210's and C310's around SWA (in those days, in the eighties). I doubt the weather changed since then or the loads, so I know what the feeling of what it was like getting airborne with the normal aspirated C210 on a hot day. The turbo model was nice, but it got hot CHT's and chewed too much fuel per hour!

Any idea the registration of this C210? I have a list of about 8 I flew back then.

[bigmanatc]

Voel who was PIC...surely not BvF...???

[trubru]

BvF sold to Pleasure Flights & Safari's a while back already. Can anyone say if the girl in the Republikein foto is AV who works for West Air as a training administrator?

I also did just shy of a 1000 hrs on C210. Only once did I take of on rwy27 on a hot day - I was empty and I said to myself that I'll never ever do it with pax.

[CJ750]

Was in SWA in the mid to late 80's and had an interesting mid-summers day take off from 01/19 with many hours on 210's. I won a lot of respect for that aeroplane but also realised i was not bullet proof and this experience has stuck with me forever. We all did stupid things when we were young and gung ho.

My condolences to friends and family of both pilot and pax. I hope that someone learns from this accident as someone will learn from he last 2 bad weather accidents we had in SA recently as people try to fly THRU mountains in bad weather.


ALL THE BEST FOR 2008

[Voel]

Hi Bigmanatc, BvF settled down in Cape Town when he sold Atlantic Aviation to Pleasure Flights. I think he stopped flying altogether. Pilot's name is known to us, but will not relase his identity until he has been positively identified, which will be difficult task as all bodies are burnt beyond recognition. I believe the passenger were all Isrealies working for a local diamond company here in Windhoek.

[B737 lover]

Its sad to hear another tragedy accident like this taking place in our beautiful Continent Africa.
Same thing happened here in Tanzania in last year to a C310 with a Minister onboard, but all i can say is what my Com. instructor in RSA told when he was checking me out on a C210, IT BITES.
B737 lover.

[Knormoer]

The aerie involved was V5-GWH from what I heard. A really sad day for aviation in Nam. My thoughts and prayers to everyone affected by this horrible tragedy. I did a lot of hours on that same a/c and Nam was where I learned to fly. Therefore by the grace of God go I. I remember a couple of times where I had a few close shaves in C210's but luckily made it to tell the tale. Ai, a really, really sad day.:(

[flyingoose]

condolences to the family members, and discusting of the "REPUBLIKEIN" to post pics like that!!!:(

[Propellerpilot]

My information is also second hand, but a reliable source told me a version that sadly falls back on pilot error:

When the pilot in command requested taxi, he was told RWY09 was availiable. As the wind was slightly easterly, he requested the runmay length from the ATC who said it was 1500m. So the aircraft taxied and backtracked. Just before backtracking was completed, the ATC corrected himself and told the pilot, that he was mistaken and that the length was only 1000m. The temperature was in the high thirties and with the amount loaded, alarm bells should have already been ringing.

The pilot decided to give it a shot (such a long way to taxi back to 01...). The 210 probably took of due to ground effect and thereafter climb performance just su:mad:ed. He did not have a choice - under thease conditions the aircraft just did not fly to outclimb the terrain-no room for a forced landing-no training in the world would have changed this.

Do not get me wrong - I do feel extremely sorry for the pilot and the victims.
However I think it is also wrong to throw the namibian aviation industry as a whole into question in this case (if my information is correct on what really happend). I think that 99.9% of us pilots here do have a very good conception of what density altitude means and how to make the performance calculation - not just for a flight with a lot of payload, but for every flight.
Surrounded by mountains, Eros does have downdraughts in these areas. Even RWY19 is a risk when there is a slight southerly breeze and should only be used with a wind stronger than 12 knots. If in doubt use 01! Maybe, being based at Swakop with sea level performance, the pilot did not add these factors into his calculation. Of course it also depends on the aircrafts performance, but a 210 will surely struggle extreamly.

It was not wrong of the ATC to mention 09 availiable and it is always the pilots discreation which runway to use. Yes - giving out the wrong length of runway at an airfield which you control is an unforgivable error, an embaressment not to mention - but he saved himself by correcting his guess before clearing the aircraft for TKOF. Why did the pilot commence his takeoff? Where was his situational awareness?

The way the aircraft crashed, this chain of events seems likely. If anyone has more infos or a different report, please feel free to comment. So in my view it was solely a chain of human error starting with the ATC.

This conclusion relieves me partially because I have to climb into a 210 almost every day myself-bad maintanance is a thing we pilots have little control over but deciding to commence TKOF in any situation, is purely our responsibility.This is also the reason the law gives the pilot in command the right to reject any instructions given by anybody. The way the press handles these matters is appalling and damaging but I hope this teaches us all to question ourselves and our decisions, always.

Condolances to the families and loved-ones - you suffer most and your loss has struck us all.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Six up, temperature in the high thirties and presumably full tanks? Runway length was a relatively minor factor with this one, I reckon.

[machcrit]

atc does'nt know what your load is, he is only trying to offer a soloution...

[Wendy .pieterse123]

I have followed the discussions, speculations and information on this web site over the last few days. Thank you. I am a family member of the young pilot who died so tragically. Without the input of this chat site we would still be totally in the dark. So many questions will never be answered. At least you guys have given us some idea as to what could have happened. As to where the fault lies is irrelevent to us as the time. Eventually we will have to face up to and deal with that but at the moment all that we as a family are trying to deal with is the loss of one of our beloved sons. Thank you so much for all the prayers and words of condolence. Thank you to all who assisted, comforted and stood by at the scene of the crash and to those who are at this moment 'carrying' his parents and two sisters through the reality of Windhoek and all it holds for them.
I must however condemn the press strongly - the visuals were horrific and sensation seeking. How could this have been allowed? This was the first reality his family had of the disaster. It will stay with us forever. Who ever took and published these photographs ...... shame on you!
D was 23 years old. He lived to fly. He was passionate about it. He loved music, diving, photography, made friends at a furious pace, loved, laughed and lived like any normal 23 year old. We will miss him greatly and morn him with great sadness. Please spare a thought for his grieving parents and his two beautiful sisters. There loss is huge.
Our hearts and our prayers are with the familys of the passengers who died in the crash. May God carry and comfort you.
Thank you all again. WP

[Jamex]

Wendy .pieterse123 Thank you for YOUR post and please also accept my condolences for your and your relatives tragic loss. It may not be much, if any, consolation but D at least managed to fulfill a dream even if for only a short time. I'm sure he's flying his dream 'plane across those great airways in heaven. When accidents like this happen I always think "there but for the grace of God go I" and I remember other much more experienced pilots than I, such as NM and PC (to name just two of the many), who "bought it." Just serves to remind us all of our mortality and the unforgiving nature of the profession we chose to make our lives in. Fly safe everyone.

[Voel]

Propellerpilot, do you have copyrights on your reply on this forum?:confused: The Namibian Sun just copied it and used it as it's headlines in todays paper.:rolleyes:

[sleeeper]

Eros is a time-bomb for controllers and pilots.tick tick tick boooom.What will happen next?

[Propellerpilot]

Interesting, how a newspaper goes on printing someones dead-reckoning speculations-in this case mine, gathered from pilot talk. I am not an investigator - I was just posting a probable logical chain of events without dramatic hype. I do not read this tabloid myself.

Why is Eros a ticking timebomb? There are airports all around the world with different hazards and procedures for safety and noise abatement - those are usually published in the AIP. Take a look at Jeppesen Bottlang Airfield Manual or AIP-VFR for European Airfields, great stuff really-why not have something like it in Southern Africa? "Airfields Directory" helps, but is not really compareable because it is not official. Probably all a question of money.

City Airports are a great thing and I think it a great loss if the general public turn against these facilities.

However no regulations will help, if a aircraft will not fly by the laws of physics in certain conditions - if human error is the cause or mechanical failure. Fortunatly longterm statistics in gerneral are in favour and I think it will remain a rare occurence- at least in my subjective view. Human error can be avoided by training and by the operators by incresing pilot awareness. Investing in this will be worthwhile in the longterm as the costs of relocating to Windhoek International (in this case) or the closing of the companies with a poor safetyrecord would be a lot more costly for everyone involved. In fact there might be an increase in casulties on the road that leads to the international Airport due to an increase in traffic.

Look ahead and avoid socalled short term solutions that do not effectuate desired results.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

An accurately compiled and calculated mass and balance sheet for each flight would probably be a good start in making the operation safer.

[Insane]

Speculation and hind sight are wonderful things.....especially when it involves the less fortunate!!

Maybe the facts should do the talking !!

[vrystaat!]

The pilot who was PIC was better know in Namibia as "Leeu" and was a damn good pilot as I'v know because I'v been flying with him for some years..YES the runway was to short and YES it was way to hot and YES he was very heavy...but I want to bring anonther point up..being afterward as the crashsite, something also strike me that another pilot told me..The tree that the horizontal-stabelizer got stuck in were not big at-all infact the A/C hit the ground FULL power and with that speed there's no way that stabelizer could get broken off and stuck in that smal tree...I CAN AND HOPE IM WRONG but what if with the big wind down drafts something broke off or nearly(stabelizer) BEFORE the crash. Leaving the pilot helpless...

As I could see at the site the A/C first slighty nicked a lampost and then the ground BUT the angle form the lamppost to the ground was STEEP...so he nose-dived down..anybody would have pulled up and try to keep the nose from the ground...exept if it was imposible...

I AM NO ACCIDENT EXPERT AND DONT KNOW ALL THE FACTS..

My point is that some A/C are not in good condition and by having over 1000hours on C210 in Nambia I know the miss-use and pulling G's are done almost every day...what if were busy setting a timebom for the next pilot...

what if in the next wing-over or hi G turn something breaks...
its not a joke anymore...

JUST A "GEDAGTE" FOR THE DAY...

Leeu was one kickass pilot!!!

[Voel]

Vrystaat, any bid of information will help. Why don't you contact Ericsson at 2088411 and provide him with that information, even if you're not an expert.

[Propellerpilot]

Vrystaat, taking what you say into account - just my thoughts:

yes he was going at full power, but that does not mean, that he was fast - you know how a 210 flies on the wrong side of the drag curve and if she doesn't want to fly due to weight and density altitude - what can you do ? If you start pulling like you said anybody would, you will just end up in a stall. The only way to get out of the mess is lowering the nose to get speed, but that too was probably not possible due to the terrain. Maybe he was in a stall while hitting the lamppost and the tree, dropping steeply into the from there ground or what do you think ?

The company and its sister company have been suspended from operation until further notice. Read that in the news a few days ago.

[vrystaat!]

propellerpilot, what you are saying are also very true and if he nicked the lamppost with it tale it would cause a nose down movement..the only thing that is bordering me bigtime is the fact that the horizontal stabelizer got left behind en a tree which is not very big nor very stong...

yup the companies were closed down but got word from one of the pilots that they are back up and running from today and back to the good old sossus flights

[alpha99]

Wow this thread still alive??? how boring!!! that pilot sorry to say was negligent to take off from a short runway like most prop a/c pilots and your companies maintenance is utterly poor....and what i find even worse is that you all trying to copy south africa with incidents though sadly trying to copy will get you in trouble.:hmm: Oh and another thing you namibian pilots like your south african mates should stop bitching and start doing your job with a smile like the cabin crew and the other staff who have it the same and sadly worse than you. STOP BITCHING OR QUIT!!!!! :mad:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Touch of dysmenorrhoea there, princess?:E

[alpha99]

how did you know Rust??? you ate all the iron thats why I have been bleeding for 5 days and still didnt die...seems i still have some time left to get in ya:p:hmm: knickers and piss ya off and have some fun....

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Have to try harder than that then...

[LJP]

South African, Namibian, British, American, I can go on, all skimp on maintenance, but when the dung hits the fan, the AME/AMO are always the a:}:}holes. Get a life.

[exjet]

4HP, get rid of this guy!!

[alpha99]

oh ex jet....does your name mean you dont fly jets anymore?? shame old age sorry to say but cant afford to have granpas flying big jets stick too prop planes lovaboy:}

[Pow-wow]

Ahhh...alpha99....buddy, I told you before about mixing medicine with drink!!!! Its true what they say thou.....where ever you are in the world, there will always be an arsehole....or maybe your just into them...???

Now you may wonder why I should be so disrespectful to you, but you see....there was no respect on your part when you posted your written diahoera on here, in full view of friends and relatives of the pilot and pax.
If you want to stir the sh** go and do it on a less sensitive thread you tosser...

[JetPark]

If this guy (alpha whatever) is at the dawn of his aviation career (his reference to grandpas), someone remind him how small this business is lest he finds himself flying a kite :ugh:

I feel sure the Mods will dump him sooner than later

[Gooneybird]

Guys posters like Alpha are sad geeks who unfortunately thrive on this stuff. Best way to treat them is to continue a discussion as if they weren't there.

Whatever the outcome it's sad to hear of another young pilot fatally injured at this stage of their career. May he and the passengers on board rest in peace.

Let's hope a proper investigation is done, and action taken as necessary.

[Jetdriver]

7 days R&R from this thread. Meanwhile back to the topic......

[unablereqnavperf]

Sadly another pilot has died in a absolutely need less accident! When will people learn that a C210 is not a 6 seater with full tanks during the African summer. A carefull look at the performance manual will show that even off the longer runway at Eros the aircraft does not have the necessary power. I know many of you young guys down there are getting away with it using the longer runway but, the aircrat is simply not certified to get airbourne at those kind of weights when the tempreture is above around 26 degree's C.

Tempretures above 26 will put the density altitude at around 9000ft if you do the performance correctly you will see that a take for a runway at 9000ft above see level is only possible with about half tanks and perhaps 3 pax. Its not just a function of horsepower either the wing simply can't lift the weight.

As someone said earlier in the thred its all down to poor training and a lot of bravado amongst the pilots I know because I have been there before myself. I was once a "kick arse pilot" fortunatly for me the SAAF recognised this maverick tendency in me and kicked me out, however I still got myself into the type of situation this unfortunae young man found himself in, and was lucky enough to survive. I'm now older and much wiser and spend my life trying to educate young men to become old pilots like me, by not doing the crazy stupid things I've done!

The cheap charter market in Africa will always however suffer thses incidents as there is almost no real control in place. Getting your first job is hard keeping it is harder as there is always some kid willing to take riskes that an older wiser head won't. profit before safety is the name of the game in Africa and i for one don't see that changing soon. This is one of the reasons I now work in Europe, greatfull for the experiences of my home land and thankfull that I was one of the licky ones that survived!

My sincere condolences to the young mans family I know the heartbreak you are suffering, I attended many funerals of similar victims.

[golffox]

Sorry to hear about this accident and my condolences to all concerned.

A trick my boss taught me flying in Zim. If you are worried you are too heavy, take a small load and see how it goes. If you feel you can take more, go around, land and put some more in the plane.
Another tip is to pick a point 3/4 of the way down the runway and make a go / no go decision when you get there on the take off run. You should be able to tell if the plane is going to fly by then and hopefully you'll have enough room to stop if you feel uncomfortable.

The following may not be relevant to this accident but looking up performance charts in a bush flying scenario can be misleading as there are so many factors not considered in the charts. Surface conditions (sandy soil vs compact clay), runway slope, terrain, trees or power lines on climb out etc etc... I remember taking big loads out of short strips where conditions were right and visa versa.

[unablereqnavperf]

My point exactly golfox if there is no data to calculate the performance you are taking on the role of test pilot! Your old boss is exactly the type of character that should not be involved in avaition! That kind of advice is what gets young pilots get killed! "Take a small load and if you feel you can take more try it" absolut B...s..t! Civilian trained piliots with the square root of bug..r all experience are not good test pilots! TIA and sadly will always be so! Until proper standerds are established this type of accident will be a regular thing!