Hong Kong ATC Advert

[Grogbog]

Thought this might be of interest to some of you....

http://www.jobserve.com.au/W58C91F260A64A55A.job

[Capt Zorro]

their is also an advert on flt international but that one says max age of 40.

Z

[No Further Requirements]

I didn't think HK was taking expats any more? Change of heart perhaps. Anyone in Honkers care to comment?

Cheers,

NFR.

[Cacciucco]

if want for work in HK you can't speak english, you can speak anything... in HK nobody speak the same language :mad::mad::mad:
Specially the pilots :ok::ok::ok:

[Track Coastal]

NFR check PMs pls.:ok:

[Canoehead]

Read the ad, it's priceless! "To be considered for this amazing opportunity, you must be comitted for five years" :}

[mfl48]

What can one expect to pay for accommodation there? Any expats in Hong Kong care to share your feelings about life there?

[throw a dyce]

Interesting how the OZ ad doesn't mention age at all.In the UK it's illegal,and probably in HK as well.Amazing opportunity? Well it used to be but I don't know anymore.
Accomodation used to be very expensive but the old allowance covered it.Most popular places include Mid levels,Discovery Bay,but I hear Tung Chung is cheaper,if 40 storey Tower blocks are you thing.I think the new CSR allowance was just a fixed amount.The old one you had to use 75% of it.But you could pocket the other 25%.:D
£60K pa isn't that good in the UK anymore.Taking the 25 % gratuity into account it's about £10K more than here,which isn't enough.I'm too old anyway in my mid 40's :}.
The ad is strange in so much the 25% was paid after 3 years,then you started another contract.Whether you get the 25% annually or after 5 years I don't know.They have strange ideas about leave as well. Under 40 was 27days and over 40,36 days.This hardly included days off.So here for example on our roster 14 days off equals 6days leave.HK 14 days off equals about 13.5 days leave.You used to get casual leave,one day for every month completed contract.They keep a very close eye on TOIL.They have a squadron of people checking this all the time,comparing operational with day workers.You can get into neagtive TOIL just doing your job and then get on the punishment roster.
Life stlye.Well it's what you make of it.Forget owning a car,so you get used to crammed public transport.The locals make all sorts of strange noises,and have a remarkable ability to bump into you at all times.Get used to asking the question WHY? I promise some things are truly weird.
I used to do a lot of walking,mainly out of boredum.Lantau has some good tracks.I hear that the pollution is a major factor as well now.It comes down from the mainland as is just sulphur c:mad:p.Very often pollution in Causeway Bay exceeds W.H.O. safety guidelines.
Noise is a big factor as well.Whether it's people,pile driving,''redecorating'' with road diggers,you seldom can escape from it.I found that 3 years was plenty for me at the time,but the best way is to go and have a look.

[throw a dyce]

I think people should be careful here.When I started in HK you had to have a minimum of 8 years civil experience.I had 17 years and still wasn't on the top of the payscale.The pay being quoted is the top of the ATCO 2 scale,so if you have 2 years then I think you maybe nearer the bottom.
The leave for under 40's is crap.Serco are giving 56 days using the same method.HK it was 27days Annual leave TOTAL.Also if you took a casual day,they rejiggled the roster so you would have an extra day punishment to work.
You have to subscribe to the MPF pension.Employees contribution HKD1000 pm.Employers the same,EXCEPT it comes from your gratuity.So you pay twice.
Flight home are enough for about for about just over 1 trip.They will pay for 4 people,but if you're there by yourself it a lot less.Also at the end of the contract (3years at that time) the final flight home came out of your travel allowance.So in the last year it was best not to take any leave at all.
There is nothing on the hkcad.gov.hk web site about this.The only thing I can think of is 1.Smelly Rat or 2.These are non civil service posts. if it is the latter then I didn't think that was possible under the Civil service Regulations.:hmm:

[2 Dogs]

I go for option no.2.
There is no mention of HKCAD in either ad. They are offering 4 trips home per year and 25% gratuity.
Didn't the gratuity for new Govt. contracts drop to 15% after we left ???
Maybe HKCAD are contracting out a few jobs to "patch the holes" temporarily.

[throw a dyce]

2Dogs,
The age is in the Flight Int ad.I e-mailed Real Time and was told in plain English not to bother applying cos I'm too old.(46).Perhaps the CAD should look at it's own gov web site,at the Labour Dept,Policy Support and Strategic Planning.If they then read their own Policy for ''Pratical Guidelines for Employers on Eliminating Age Discrimination in Employment'' then they might learn something.:ugh:
Yeah the 15% gratuity was the last I knew about.But I thought Controllers had to be Civil Service,although there are some Non Civil Service post in Training and Ops.I would apply just for the hell of it.

[LapSap]

Ya gotta love this place!

Despite their insistance that they have nothing to do with it, its gotta be CAD - who the hell else could you work for in HK?!!!

And of course we can all guess who's behind this. :D

I can see it now.
Sire, I have a cunning plan!!
Oh dear, not again. It hasn't got anything to do with hiring expats has it??
No, no,no,no,no,no........er yes.
But you know the CSB has put a stop to that. How are you going to pull this one off?!!
Well we'll say we're not hiring controllers, we're just getting a company to give us some help.
Doing what?
Oh... stuff. Just stuff. Anything that er controllers do.
What have you promised them?
4 trips home a year and ..
4 trips home a year!!!! are you mental?!! They'll hardly ever be here! And the rest of the troops will mutiny!
Don't worry, I've got that covered. We won't be able to give them any leave so they won't be going anywhere further than Shenzhen - matter of fact they'll be living there caus thats all the accommodtion assistance will cover.
Brilliant.:mad:

Even though HK does not have age discrimination laws (yet) I bet you the places that their advertising do. Bet thats not kosher in the UK or Oz.
And if these ATCOs are paid via a UK company I bet you'll be paying UK tax, so the reference to HK tax rates seems irrelevant.

Time the gutless bureacrats fixed things properly instead of this bandaid type rubbish.

[throw a dyce]

It's illegal to discriminate against age in the UK especially for job adverts.
As for UK tax.I didn't have to pay,but things might have changed.If that's the case then it would be a complete waste of time.
The pay comparison is worth noteing.HK had pay cuts a few years back,at the same time as big traffic growth.In the meatime the real world has steadily caught up.When I started in HK the pay was double on basic,and about treble with gratuity.Now I get paid roughly the same before gratuity and that is at a Nats unit which pays almost the least.At LL it's a different story all together.Also the HKD is tied to the US $ which isn't so good these days.
It just looks like a loss of face that the localisation policy hasn't produced the goods.Still think it's all a bit fishey,and to have discrimination in the job adverts is beyond careless.:=

[LapSap]

TAD.

You were employed by HK Govt in HK therefore paid HK tax. But what about if you are employed via UK company to provide service in HK and return home every 90 days. What would IR have to say then? I think anyone considering this offer better do their homework vry carefully. Ask yourself why CAD has to be so covert about getting staff and what is the underlying causes why they find themselves in this position.

[throw a dyce]

I think it could be like offshore workers although I'm not current on expat tax situation.You have to be in the UK for less than 90 days otherwise it a brown envelope from HMRC.The ad did say that it was subject to HK taxation.So how does that fit with 4 trips.Well it could be 2 months on,1 month off.That fits 4 trips,but it does push you over the 90 days,and cause a riot with existing staff.That's because it would be 4 times the leave they get.Unfortunately Real Time also fail to state the leave.
It's a mistery to me.Funny how you can go from being almost the youngest Gweilo to ancient in 7 years.I know time passes quickly but :eek: .Also most of the Gweilos now must be the wrong side of 50.

[Bedder believeit]

I believe that some of you lot are misreading the "four trips home per year" bit. I interpret it as being four trips home (once per year) over the life of a 5 year contract, which is basically what we get now. A current three year contract has a one way ticket at the start, two returns during the 3 years, and a one way ticket at the end. As for tax, some people in the past have departed and not paid their tax due in their last year, so they had better not think about coming back. Thanks guys! As for the gratuity bit, the only expats that I know of that have been recruited by the HK Civil Service under the 15% gratuity ruling are (less than) a handfull of flight ops inspectors, and two former ATCO's helping with "projects", they are not working as controllers.
The whole ad is so poorly written and presented, that I doubt it has much in the way of balls behind it. Consider it a fishing expedition.

[LapSap]

Cut and pasted from the add above,

4 paid trips home every year

I'm not sure how you can interpret that any other way Bedder?

[Bedder believeit]

As I said, it's poorly written, and I (still) think the interpretation is "4 paid trips home (for) every year (of service)". I can't imagine for one minute that anyone would be offering a paid home trip effectively every 3 months. The only people that get that sort of thing are fly in/fly out at hardship places. I would hardly put HK in the "hardship" group. Anyway, it looks like a bit of a beat up to me, so who cares.

[Bedder believeit]

"Lies, damned lies and statistics": at the moment all of the expats here in HK would get an annual home passage allowance that's somewhere between HKD$11,000 and $14,000. At times firesale return airfares can be had between HK and Aus/NZ, UK/Europe and North America for a bit under HKD$4,000. So a simple way to mathematics this out is "3 to 4 return passages per year" but we all know that that's not how it works. When we can get leave, or when we want leave, then those fares are not available.

[bekolblockage]

return airfares can be had between HK and Aus/NZ, UK/Europe and North America for a bit under HKD$4,000

Jeez Bedder, the last few times I've flown, the fuel surcharge is just about that much on its own!

[Bedder believeit]

Lies, damn lies, statistics and selected (out of context) quotations!

[throw a dyce]

Well the ad has been withdrawn from the OZ site.Expired after a few days,Right.:}Why's that then.:D:=

[LapSap]

http://www.guidedfishing.com/images/0764550284.01.gif

Kaaaching! That'll be $10 thanks TAD.

[throw a dyce]

Looks like it's HKD20 now as the ad has been withdrawn from Flight Int.Cheque is in the surface mail.;)

[LapSap]

Well it looks like the fishing expedition only lasted a few days - maybe they ran out of bait!
So did anyone out there who's not an old fart like TAD (;) sorry mate)manage to get an application in and receive some sort of reasonable response?
Whoever instigated this shouldn't get off the hook (pardon the pun) that easily. I presume that sort of advertising wasn't free - so who was paying?

[Fox3snapshot]

Response was received from Real Time consultants, selected CV's have been forwarded to the 'customer'. :cool:

[No Further Requirements]

Yep, I got a response too. A couple of personally addressed emails to clarify a few things, not bulk emails back to all stations. If it was a wind-up, it was a pretty elaborate one!

Cheers,

NFR.

[throw a dyce]

:hmm: And what kind of visa would you be working with? At the moment CAD cannot employ expat ATCOs because the localisation policy still prevails.So you get to immigration.Why are you here? To work as ATCOs.Government not employ expats,we can do it ourself. Ah but we're different.Yeah you're an Illegal Immigrant,and will be escorted to the local nick.:{
It's not a wind up,but it is not the way they do things there.Even our groups that arrived with full Gov approval,had visa issues.:suspect:

[No Further Requirements]

Hey Dyce, thanks for the info. Do any of the current HK guys know any more about these jobs? Have you guys heard anything at your end?

Cheers,

NFR.

[253]

for those of you who may have applied, I have it on good authority that the HK management (so I am told) are unaware that this advert has been placed, and it definitely is not them and has been unsolicited.

i believe they will investigate this, so dont get your hopes up too high, good chance it will fall in a heap.

watch this space.:rolleyes:

[throw a dyce]

Yeah right.:D So who put it in,the bus driver to the ATCX? He just fancied a bit more work. Face saving.:suspect:

[253]

dyce

yep I will definitely agree with you here. now they have been found out butt covering seems to be occurring.

[On the beach]

So, let me see. If I was earning a package of about HK$1,600,000 p.a. (that's including accommodation allowance, gratuity, air fares, bus pass etc for the nit-pickers and not putting money into really silly investments - sorry, couldn't resist) in 200?, what would that equate to in 2008? -
HK$2,000,000?, if we take inflation into consideration (Er - that's 450,000 wotsits for ozzie viewers).

What's the downside? Handling a little bit more traffic (okay, a lot more traffic) than in 200?, not getting leave when you want it, not getting TOIL attributed in a manner that is coincidental to the concept of fairness, not getting HK37,000 a month accomm allowance, working like a one armed paper-hanger on a night shift 'cos management don't understand the concept of aircraft flying in the dark yet, 'cause there's no noise complaints from overflyers, pollution (what pollution!), an HK$ linked to a lead balloon and then being employed by an overseas recruitment company. Nah, thanks very much, but no thanks. :=

[bekolblockage]

Awwww, go on. You know it makes sense! :}

[Fox3snapshot]

So what makes you guys think those issues are unique to Hong Kong. :hmm:

Its strange, most units would welcome the possibility of staffing improvement regardless of what form it takes to alleviate some of the issues you are bleating about. :rolleyes:

[bekolblockage]

So what makes you guys think those issues are unique to Hong Kong.

Funny. I don't recall anyone asserting they were.:rolleyes:

[Fox3snapshot]

What's the downside? Handling a little bit more traffic (okay, a lot more traffic) than in 200?, not getting leave when you want it, not getting TOIL attributed in a manner that is coincidental to the concept of fairness, not getting HK37,000 a month accomm allowance, working like a one armed paper-hanger on a night shift 'cos management don't understand the concept of aircraft flying in the dark yet, 'cause there's no noise complaints from overflyers, pollution (what pollution!), an HK$ linked to a lead balloon and then being employed by an overseas recruitment company. Nah, thanks very much, but no thanks.

......could be most units in the world :suspect: