Silly rest periods in IAH (EK)

[kennedy]

Oh well, I knew I was expecting too much when the Houston flight went daily, but at least I might have thought that the Medical dept/fatigue study group might be listened to this time.

As of next month, the IAH flights are almost daily, 17 hour block times, and 24hr layover, which includes to trip to/from the hotel which I've heard is an hour away!

Looks like TC will get his wish soon and keep us on the A/C to make this flight a turn around!:mad::mad:

[cavelino rampante]

Just as a matter of interest, how much time off will you have when you get back?

[ab33t]

Loads of hours, early year when the hors run out

[Kamelchaser]

Some brief statistics on this little gem of a pattern;

In the 59:45 hrs TAFB, you'll be flying 55% of that time.
Total time in IAH is 24hrs:30 mins.
With travel, and no doubt the regular delays, you'll be lucky to have 20hrs in the hotel.

Supposedly there will be three days off afterwards, but my concern is the fatigue levels throughout the whole crew on the return sector, not how many days off you get after the near accident.:ugh:

At what point do AAR and TC stop taking the p#*s and start taking safety seriously? I guess next it'll be LA with 12 hrs in the hotel.

No doubt the only way to deal with this is the obligatory ASRs until the company is forced to react to it (bit like the MRU ASRs; "the FRMC is monitoring the situation, and will ignore it for as long as possible")

[Cityliner]

What is the Crew complement for flights like DXB-JFK/IAH?
Is there any crewrest in EK Aircrafts

thx in advance

[gj18457]

Same thing I heard from some friends who have flown the IAH pattern.Absolute killer.17 hrs flight there and 15hrs back at the moment.
Perhaps some of our US pilots can speak to the FAA and voice some concerns.I must go back and make sure I have put avoid IAH on the latest bid.

[fatbus]

that must mean you love the pairing and attempting to scare others not to bid.

32 hrs ,min TAFB work 10 days where do I sign.

give me a break

[what_goes_up]

Guys, after 7 hours sleep in the bunk 24 hours layover. How much more sleep do you need? If you can't cope maybe you shouldn't fly ULR and stick to the turn arounds.

[Arctaurus]

what_goes_up; -

What a puerile f*%king comment. I hope you don't feature in any serious fatigue risk management committee. :ugh:

At best, you have a shallow understanding of what ULR fatigue is all about. It's certainly not only about time in an aircraft bunk.

[what_goes_up]

Mate

I'm doing it for years now, so I know exactly what I am talking about.

But no worries, I am in no committee. Couldn't stand to work for sissies who'd rather get a 8-5 job.

[miss petal]

what goes up

Do you know that there's no difference if you sleep in the bunk, sleep on passenger seat or working walking s*itting or pi**ing, you still in the aircraft for 17 hours???? And just fyi not everybody can sleep in bunk.. and for people who can stay in the bunk for 7 hours.. they really amazed me.

next time let your mouth say the comment (close to your brain if you have one ).. not from your a** hole.

[what_goes_up]

And just fyi not everybody can sleep in bunk..
Well, that is not the company's problem but yours. If you cannot do it and you feel too tired to do your duty, get a job where you do not have to rest in flight.

That is where aviation is going. Either you learn to prepare for a ULR flight to be tired at the right time and be able to get at least some sleep or you fly for LoCo's and do up's and down's the whole day but be in bed at a convenient time.

[dunerider]

Typical idiot comment Fatbus.You really have a good understanding of FTL's and bidding.Its because of dicks like you that airlines like EK get away with this crap.If you actually fly for a living come and join EK and I'm sure you can get as many of these flights as you like.Cant wait to see you fit your months flying into 10 days.

[MR8]

Guys,

Personally, I don't mind these rotations as I can sleep quite well in the bunk. Having said that however, I must agree that this rotation is an absolute disgrace! It's not because I can sleep well, that the rest of my crew will be able to do the same thing. Also, the comment that you must avoid it then is quite silly, because there is no guarantee that you won't receive the pairing when avoiding it. I guess some of the previous suggestions are worth looking into: write ASR's, contact the FAA if you are American and let the (aviation) world know that this pairing is just too much...

MR8

[fatbus]

Dune , been doing it a lot longer than you .Just get over it , you don't have to bid those trips if you don't want to . FYI I do and enjoy the time off.
And as someone else said that is the way aviation is going , if you don't like it don't do it ,you have choices, stop bitching like girly man . Most of the guys on my street like the ULR 's


Just to add , Dune , where you here when we did the Moscow turns? I was and did the month in 8 days- Sun and Tues . Oh ya that was when the weekend was thrus and fri, but I'm sure you knew that.

[dunerider]

I remember doing the slingshot to HKG.I also remember how nice it was living at Chicago Beach.Whats doing return Moscows with 3 pilots got to do with it.How many hours did you actually do in the 8 days flying that allowed you to have the rest of the month off.How many of the guys in your street like done the IAH flight.You must live in that street with all the guys from the insomniac's association.

[fatbus]

you asked how to get you flying done in 1o days , that was 80 in 8, sleep on a IAH is easy, SYD and MEL on the bus was a harder pairing than IAH

[Wordsworth]

Am I the only one who thinks fatbus and what goes up are rather misguided to say the least.I for one cannot believe the cr p coming out of them!!

Personally I have been flying ULR with several other airlines long before EK even got out of the gulf area and I can tell you EK have got it all wrong.

Bunks far fron the flight deck,no firm policy on use of seats in the cabin(other airlines block 2 J class seats for the heavy crews),short layovers,insufficient rest on return,the list is almost endless.

Yes its good hours etc etc but in terms of ones health and sustainability its dangerous.

Its gonna be hard to avoid these trips now as most guys I talk to are not really interested in doing them.Wouldnt it have been nice to have some dialouge with mangemnet over these trips before we started them.We have lots of experience out there who have done this type of flying for years.:ugh:

Over and out

[ernestkgann]

EK has been conducting ULR for about 10s in the scheme of things. Unless you've done it for at least ten years of your career then I reckon you're blowing smoke out of your bum. I love the idea of doing all my flying on long trips so I can get the time off but the way EK does it is both unprofessional and immature and the people that agree with these policies reflect that.
All these wheels have been invented. There is no innovation in this stuff just bent machinery.

[Wordsworth]

Been doing this ULR stuff since 1990 so no smoke there!:)

quite agree with the comments about EK s policy on this type of flying being immature and unproffesional.But think most of us have been in EK long enough to know that our view points dont matter that much or at all.

Suppose all we can do is bid or not for these trips as we see fit just like any other part of the roster.

But guys please do not think that these 24 layover trips are what this type of flying is all about.The poor guys who get the short end of the stick who have to rest first in a dark tube for 7 hours when departing at 08 30 am are the ones who feel the pain the most.

As for the comment previously about not being able to sleep in the bunk is not the companys problem.I see it as partly there fault.As per my previous post no seats available in the cabin and claustrphobic and I would imagine rather unhygenic bunks are all part of the problem.Ohh for the original boeing designed crew rest compartment.

rather rushed post sorry for the grammar, of for a curry
:\
Over and out

Cheers

[SOPS]

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9946/planexv3.png

as it should be.......:ugh:

[dunerider]

Gee Fatbus sounds like a hell roster.Was that 8 Moscows in a row to do 80 hours in 8 days?I'm suprised thats legal.Especially when you are so senior.You
must have been bottom bid.

[GMDS]

Dear managers

Yes, i mean you TC, AAR, AS and ED, as well as the so called "doctors" of our clinic (and you nice office cushion warmers, once you are nicely installed, around 9:30am and reading pprune, with the next coffee for the boss, please bring along this letter instead of posing as a happy pilot).

As long as you have not accompanied us on a 211 enlarging crew, trying to sleep at 10am, eating whenever the understaffed cc can hand you a delicious crew-meal, drinking the recommended 3 litres throughout the flight, then queing in economy with zillions of fine pax from the subcontinent doing their monthly hygiene in our toilets, trying then to make it back to the cockpit, trying again to get some rest in the noisy hotel, doing the same thing back just 24 hours later, while at every manoeuver joining us in the cockpit and completing a simple tetris-game on your fancy blackberry and getting scared s##tless about your performance at the end of the flight .......
then getting well deserved little days off and doing a beatiful 203 accompaning a cabin crew with all her functions and rest possibilites and at the end of the flight still smiling politely at any silly pax request .....
As long as you have not demonstrated such a solidarity act, anything coming out of your feathers must be discarded as junk mail, as it has no relevance to us.

Get real, you KNOW it's unsafe

[Ramboflyer 1]

All pilots should go to the American Embassy and ask to have there US visa cancelled. Then tell the company you will not be able to fly us flights and have no intention of doing so until the rest period is increased. Remember its your ass is you screw up, the company will not protect you, as far as they are concerned they are running a legal operation.
Is it possibble to publish the ULH rules from proper airlines to compare with EK, maybe then we can approach the FAA and GCAA and ask why EK has a big discrepancy with other carriers.
Also the newspapers may like to publish the comparison for the passengers benefit.

[Andu]

fatbus, can I be allowed a guess at your non-proone name? Could it be "Life of ...." followed by "nautical ....." ?

Whatever it is, you're certainly not a line pilot.

------

Oh, and SOPS... I have to agree that the Boeing Crew Rest Area you so kindly put into your post for everyone to see is superb. It's just a pity that that the crew rest EK provides for its tech crew bears absolutely no resemblance to that, and nor is it positioned anywhere near the front of the aircraft. Picture the AFT torpedo stowage of a World War One submarine built for Lilliputians and you might get some idea of the EK model.

[MTOW]

Picture the AFT torpedo stowage of a World War One submarine built for Lilliputians Very accurate description - and take note of that "AFT" word. Crazy decision, that one, utterly crazy.

[Kamelchaser]

Just my 5 fils worth again...

It may be all well and good for the few people who can get suitable rest for 7 hours in a cramped bunk at 10am. Good on you, but I'm pretty sure you're in the minority. Think about the rest of crew. I'm guessing but suspect perhaps 80% of the rest of the crew don't achieve anywhere near that much rest.I personally am lucky to get 2 to 3 hours rest, regardless of the time of the day. And what about the cabin crew? 1st class crew may be lucky to get a good break, but the rest normally get about 4 hours total. And they're working bloody hard on those sectors. The passengers seem like they haven't eaten in days!

So essentially, you may be well rested, but you're probably surrounded by other crew members on the brink of making some fatigue induced mistakes. Are you happy with that?

I remember when we used to do the SIN-SYD-SIN slingshot. Night both ways, 12hrs rest at the noisy SYD airport hotel during the day. (as usual, EK exemption to break the 10hrs flight time in 24hrs rule) On departure from SYD, when I hit the TOGA buttons, there was an almighty crash in the front galley..someone had forgotten to secure one of the trolleys..crockery all over the floor. Almost caused a reject. Many other small errors on that particular flight put down to fatigue.

I'm afraid simply stating that you can cope, (and therefore that everyone else is a whimp), certainly doesn't promote the interests of CRM, passenger safety and flight safely in general.

[vbrules]

The rest facilities for pilots on EK777s are sub-standard, disrespectful and quite frankly are a '**** you' to the pilots from the company.
Having said that whining on prune about it is unlikely to get any results (irrespective of whether management actually read these threads or not). In the absence of any representative group to make a collective approach to the company it is up to the individual to write and/or speak with management to voice your concerns.
Ultimately if you are one of those who cannot get rest it becomes a matter of flight safety.
As a minimum we should have 2 business class seats blocked for our use on ULR flights.

[EGGW]

To all the heroes who can achieve decent levels of rest in the Boing crew rest, you must be superhuman and far superior to the rest of us mere mortals.

This IAH pattern will lead to a serious incident, unless we get a minimum of 48hrs+ off in IAH. I have done the GRU once, and that was enough, i cannot get up at 6am local (dxb), get on the plane, go straight into the most uncomfortable bunks, and achieve any sort of decent rest. It is simply not possible, and if your telling me you can, BS.

The original forward bunks were junked by EK, because TC wanted the First Class suites to have headroom, and a feeling of space. They have achieved the latter at the expense of safety. The rear 777 bunks are crap, uncomfortable, you have to lie down, the noise is bad, you cannot watch the TV for more than an hour, your neck hurts. Read a book, forget it, not feasible :yuk: I don't mind JFK's, they are just about do able, but any further, no thanks with current conditions. I will be filing ASR' s every IAH, GRU, f**k em.:ugh::ugh:

EGGW

[GMDS]

Well, TCs greed might have f##cked him up anyway. With the bunk in the rear there is no way EK can ever operate with only one captain and two fos for shorter trips. I know they tried, but it is illegal according GCAA. So they need to block 1 F or two C seats. A loss both ways, salary wise or pax wise. How easy and finally cheaper would it have been to buy the aircraft as it was initially designed.....
Sure enough they might convince the incompetent local talent for a exemption one day, but that will be the straw to brake their favorite camels back. I don't think that any sane captain will accept rest so far away, and if any foreign regulator gets a sniff of it, this might do it for once. Or even they lose face.

[ernestkgann]

You should write to management but it doesn't do much good. In their response they ridicule you and suggest all you're after is an easy ride.

[Andu]

there is no way EK can ever operate with only one captain and two fos for shorter trips.If that's the case, EK don't know about it (or are ignoring it). They're selling all FC seats on Perth flights if they put an aircraft on the service that has crew rest. (Perth flights operate with one captain and two FOs.) I know of one of the senior captains who was met with this situation who told them to unsell one seat or he wasn't going. Luckily, some of the FC pax were staff upgrades, so it didn't filter up as far as I'm sure it would have if he'd have had a real FC passenger downgraded.

[White Knight]

Nagoya, Osaka also one skipper, 2 F/O's with crew bunks at the back on 345:ouch: Don't know where the illegality is? Do you have a reference to the GCAA regs GMDS just out of interest?

[GMDS]

Yes, there is a FCI or some other publication regarding this, can't actually pinpoint it. No crewbunk away from the cockpit is accepted. There has to be a seat right behind the cockpit, either 1F or 2C seats.
I'll try to find the instruction, others might confirm this, as it makes ample sense. At least we should enforce this, i certainly will.
I'll try to enquire with GCAA.

[Gillegan]

Has anybody noticed in the FCI regarding "Generic ULR Ops" that it states that the crew will be acclimatized before any ULR flight? If you think about it, that's what the rest of the industry does. EK has chosen to interpret "flight" to mean "pairing". If they followed their own rules, we would have a minimum of 48 hours for IAH and GRU.

[L1011]

Looks like the 777ER bunks really suck. TC wins once more. Thanks all the tech guys, you sold the pilots down the river again.

The 345 bunks are pretty good thankfully. Wonder what they are going to be like on the 380? Heard they are down the back, anyone know more?

[7x7]

For the 380, hammocks.

They were good enough for the lower ranks in Admiral Nelson's days. I believe TC got the idea after watching Russell Crowe in 'Master and Commander'.

He concluded that if crews who'd spent the night sleeping in such conditions for months on end could defeat the Fench in the southern Indian Ocean, his crews could fly across the same ocean resting in the same style of bed.

Cheaper - and lighter - too, so less fuel uplift.

[ojguilty]

7X7,

Bravo! LMFAO! You have summed up the corporate culture brilliantly.:ok:

OJ

[vbrules]

Yes the A345 Captain's bunk is better than the B777 but be careful not to fall into the carefully prepared trap. The position of the bunk has been an issue with Airbus guys, especially when the crew complement is 1 Captain and 2 F/Os. Just because it's better than the B777 rest doesn't fix the problem and you run the risk of agreeing that something less than ideal becomes the norm because of the even more woeful state of new rest facilities. This could then have a knock-on effect for future aircraft fit-outs.

[Straight & Level]

Just a thought: has anyone had any official 'yeah or nay' from the likes of Patricia et al about utilising first class (or even biz) seats if they are not sold? Just curious. I have sat in the cabin on both JFK and GRU flights (when trying to sleep was futile) but the cabincrew seem to be under the impression that they are not to be utilised and seem less than keen on the idea.

[fatbus]

So far at EK its still PIC to decide on the day and tell the purser whats going to happen WRT rest

[Wordsworth]

Guys lets get real, if you want to and can sit in a F seat then do it.If its safer and more comfrtable etc then take a seat.I know I do.If the purser or anyone else has a comment,whatever, be the Captain,write a CSR or whatever you feel you have to,but safety and rest are the prime concern.

Over and out

[MTOW]

So far at EK its still PIC to decide on the day and tell the purser whats going to happen WRT restI've been told by two different captains that there are Pursers out there who will contest this, and quite stridently, it would seem. (Both were told in no uncertain term that they weren't allowed to sit in FC during their rest.)

I've frequently used an empty FC seat to have my meal before returning to the flight deck on JFK flights and never had a problem with the purser. However, that may because I'm a greybeard, who the pursers don't feel ready to confront - the two captains who were given their marching orders were somewhat younger than I am.

The aft crew rest really is a can of worms, isn't it? I remember SP telling me before the first aircraft arrived that you could sit up and read comfortably in the bunks. He had obiously only tried the bunk just inside the rest area door - the one the Purser uses. The pilots' bunks have considerably less head room than it has, and I for one cannot sit up in the pilot's bunk. I don't think anyone could. I tried using the Purser's bunk once (at the 'A' captain's suggestion) - I was unbelievably noisy, far, FAR worse than the pilots' bunks. I don't know how the CC cope.

I pray to God we'll never have a major problem that leaves the captain stuck down the back unable to get back to the cockpit. The recent Qantas incident into Bangkok shows that quite serious things can go wrong.

Imagine if someone had brought that scenario up at a training captains' meeting three weeks ago? He'd have been laughed out of the room. I fear the day might come when a cabin fire - or something none of us have even thought of - might leave the only captain on board trapped in the aft galley, if not until landing, then until it is too late for him to have any meaningful input into how the emergency is to be handled.

I know I'm not the only one to have considered this. I remember one of the captains who's been in the company even longer than I have bringing this very point up on an 'in house' chat site some time ago. On a public website, I won't go into the reaction his comments raised from some (one?) of the other pilots.

[FcU]

What about an emergency that requires being strapped in to a seat. Do you just lay there with your head aimed at the impact point strapped down with the sleeping belt. I am sure that all the families lawyers will hold TC and Emirates financially responsible for any damages that occur because the Captain was unable to reach the flightdeck (better hope it does not happen in NA). I know I will be!:mad:

[Capt Roo]

People - you are going to have to be firm on this.

If the trip is really so bad - don't do it. Or do one, file an ASR and bid to not do it.

If you are assigned one anyway, go to your AME and say you can't rest for this pattern.

Some who want to do it badly enough will. If there are enough of them, the trip will stay as it is. If not it will change.

Short of an Union (banned in ME I'm told) that's all you can do.

[vbrules]

March bid package shows all but the first few days of daily operations to be 2 day layovers. Is someone listening after all?

[skype]

March bid package shows all but the first few days of daily operations to be 2 day layovers. Is someone listening after all?


Well blow me..........VBrules is correct PPrune may have Force powers after all. IAH 211 / 5211 trips 7th March to 27 March are a 48 hour layover. but with EK still:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[LazyPilotEK]

Wow, two-day Houstons as an on-going routine? You can hear the howls of anguish and gnashing of teeth from here. Imagine how MUCH MONEY it's costing... I hear they declared two-minutes silence in the Ops Centre when that decision was agonisingly come to.

[vbrules]

The 'pairings' list has been changed from original publication to what is currently showing on the CRS bid package. All Houston layovers now 24 hours; not 48 as previously reported. That will save a lot of manpower!

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

I can feel a lot of ASR's being filed for the IAH 24 hour layovers...... Of course the FRMS will do squat about it, being throroughly independent of course :hmm::hmm:

Ed will say that the SAFE programme recommends that 24 hour layover is better, perhaps i should ask if he wants to join us for a trip to IAH, and see for himself the joys of the CRC(not). Of course if he is REALLY concerned for flight safety, not BS'ing us, then we know that the layovers would be 48 hours minimum. of course they haven't recruited enough new pilots :yuk::yuk: Strange that eh!

T*sseurs.

SyB :zzz:

[SOPS]

But I thought Ed said he was charged to carry out an important mandate, both he and his team...........??????????:ugh:

[Plank Cap]

Guys, it's very little compensation, but just check you are getting your 145 hours off before and 65 hours off after these IAH flights (ie nearly 6 days off prior.....). This is all part of the mandatory rest plan (kept very quiet and somewhat tricky to find) for this ULR pattern. I had previously no concept of these planned rest periods in conjunction with these pairings.

FCI 2007-76 (FTL for ULR flights) tells of the need for rest in accordance with the individual rest strategy plan, but it doesn't spell out how long that rest needs to be.

All the ULR flights have different rest requirements before and after the trip, and these are laid out in the portal; > CRS Bidding > Help > Support > Flight Bid Assist > By Layovers. Click on the destination code and look at the planned rest required.

The things they never tell you..........!!

[EFIS123]

Keep Discovering..... body bags in the flightdeck.

Questioned a safety guy the other day - response....'do you know how much it will cost the company if it goes to 48 hour layover???'. Amazing. If you cannot afford the crew rest costs on a particular pairing....hmmmm.....maybe you shouldn't operate that city pair.

(It will/does cost EK bunch to fly that far with the cost of fuel etc. Imagine it is tough to make a profit there).

Also it is going to be ok....because we are going to take part in a study and wear heart rate monitors. I feel better already!.

Found this out from one of our CRS experts.... The high amount of time (145hrs prior rest etc) is only for the first 5-6 pairings of the month.....every month and you can see similar times prior to the first few ULR New Yorks, Houstons, GRU's, etc. I imagine it is the same for Captain roster building.

So check the rest requirement before the IAH on the 10th or 15th. Should be way less. Prob 72 hours.

The key to the whole thing here is being 'fit to fly' before an ULR Flight. So the way they have set it up - somehow you have to be rested and feeling fit to fly before departing IAH for Dubai on the way home. ....after flying the longest flight of your life the day before. With a super dry cabin for 18 hours, no place to sit, loud bunks aft of the engine cores.

For interest sake, Cathay's HKG-JFK is 17 hours...and they are using their new 777-300ERs on it. They get either 34 or 48 hour layover, and still have the Boeing ULR Flight Deck Crew Rest in the front - with seats/beds etc. Nothing ripped out as per EK rest policy.

FYI 18-30 hours rest is considered the worst layover rest you can have after a ULR. 17 is ok, and so is 31+. Because the flight is so long, cannot use 17. I imagine that is how Cathay came up with 34 and 48.

This is EK though - we can re-write aviation history. 24 hours.... sweet!

[kingoftheslipstream]

Ladies 'n Gents

When I was flyin' military ULR back in the '80s I remember being given a brief on how NASA had put a huge amount o' data out about how all their research indicated the best rest combos were 15 hours and multilples thereof... for example 15, 30, 45 hours.

Naturally this is all overlooked these days in the interests a commerce... :uhoh:

As fer the EK Crew Rest Compartment (CRC) issue... well, when you have folks with more ambition than experience in these decision makin' jobs, you get what we have... it springs from a kind of corporate pathology and narrowness of mind... why consult experience and expertise when we can do it the EK way? :ugh:

Laugh... don't think I'll ever start!

Happy Contrails folks
k-ot-s

[Mistah Kurtz]

Just been reading this thread and what really depresses me is the comments from pilots like "What goes up" and "Fatbus" on the forst page. How can things ever get any better with morons like that around?
How can any pilot defend this kind of rostering?

[menard]

If "what goes up" loves these flights so much, and is such a great ULR superpilot, then he should bid for all of them...

Exposed to all this cosmic radiation, his "what goes up" will not go up anymore!!

Sorry "what goes up", impotent idiot, I couldn't resist!

[Kamelchaser]

I see the first fatigue ASR was posted on the portal for the very first 24hr IAH. That didn't take long. Well done to the crew for that. It has been referred to the FRMS committee to mill and dither over it for the next four months...the usual load of rubbish about filling out a fatigue survey, being interviewed the company doctor etc.

I also see one of the very first 24hr IAH's had a medical divert to Sweden somewhere? on the way to IAH..resulting in a very long duty day and delaying the departure of the flight the next day due to minimum rest times. And I'm told (third hand of course), that the company was putting pressure on the crew not to delay the departure.

Perhaps someone closer to the facts could enlighten us as to more of the facts?

In the meantime, keep up the ASRs to get rid of this ridiculous pattern.

Strong rumour that San Francisco is starting in a few months. I guess that will be 18 hours across the pole, with 20 hours off as well?

[GMDS]

According to ALL fatigue/safety surveys and studies i have encountered or read in 30 years of aviation/space flight, this pattern simply cannot be safe. As professional pilots with concern for safety, our own, for the company and for our customers, EVERY 24h IAH should automatically trigger a ASR. Otherwise forget the "professional".
Food for thought for all the guys who don't submit one.

[pissedoffpilotek]

They did divert and did over 24hrs duty!!!! well over the 22limit...Why?

[Gulf News]

Only one ASR ? It took 18 months and countless ASRs and CSRs to get the Seoul changed to 3 crew. We have to chnage this one with critical mass before a precedent is set. If we don't speak up through all of the limited channels at our disposal we will have only ourselves to blame.

File the ASR and CSR, answer the questionnaire and their questions honestly and maybe, just maybe we have a chance of turning this around.

[Wiley]

According to ALL fatigue/safety surveys and studies i have encountered or read in 30 years of aviation/space flight, this pattern simply cannot be safe. I've yet to do an IAH, and won't be unless rostered for one against my bidding prefrences.

I have done a 24 hour Sao Paulo, which is about on a par, if slightly shorter in flying time, and that was enough for me. I was a shattered wreck for 48 hours after getting home, and I thank God I didn't have to deal with any problem on the trip back, because I'd had little of no meaningful sleep on the turnarou... sorry, layover. (Looking for some silver lining - I actually managed to sleep in the forrard tube of the aft torpedo compartment on the return sector, which was almost a first for me.)

If the people coming up with these ridiculous patterns can't be made to see how bloody dangerous they are, maybe we can appeal to their commercial instincts? Can someone can get the message across to them that the cabin crew simply can't deliver "the product" the company imagines they're selling to the travelling public if they're dragging themselves aroud the cabin in a state of near exhaustion.

Not that it will make much difference, but I've put AVOID IAH into my standing bid with a very high loading. Perhaps if everyone else did the same some inkling of pilot dissatisfaction with this patently silly pattern might begin to seep across the chasm that has replaced an interface between the workforce and management in EK.

How in the world are they going to handle the lawsuits if there is an incident that can be attributed to crew fatigue with all the information just on this thread alone - and now a matter of public record - available for any lawyer to investigate further?.

[halas]

Interesting reading here if you have a spare few hours.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/flightops/safety/23

Readers Digest version:

Company should have an educational plan for crew regarding rest/operations/fatigue control/rostering, etc.

Crew rest should include seats.

Dedicated area to get changed for rest.

Toilet that is dedicated to crew in a secure area

It goes on as much as l go off ULR!

halas

PS By the way Ian Hosegood is one of the panel advisors

[Kamelchaser]

Only one ASR relating to the 24hr pattern Gulf News because the ASRs only covered the period up to the 2nd Feb.

I will be astonished, and professionally a bit disappointed, if we don't have 7 ASRs a week from that point on about that pattern.

This is definitely one pattern that we should be inviting one of the doctors from the FMRS or FRMS or whatever it's called to come along on.

I know the new NZ Doc at the clinic has just joined the committee. He's very keen to find out about all this stuff, but suspect the company "won't be able to release him from duties" because of the heavy workload there.

[SOPS]

And Halas, it also says two sleep periods on the layover before the return flight.......:cool:

[MTOW]

I find the lack of a seat where I can rest is a pain. Having to climb up into (as someone has so aptly called it) the "torpedo tube" is not ideal. Unless you're no more than 5.1" tall, it's not even possible to sit up on the bunk with your feet out into the aisle. And if there's a spare seat available in the cabin, you're not permitted to sit in it (!) - a rule brought in with about as much thought as went into removing the standard Boeing forward crew rest and putting the pilots as far as it is possible to be from the cockpit.

Departure 9.00am - lie down in a claustrophobic tunnel at 9.30am UND YOU VILL REST!!! (does that sound like anyone we know?) is just not possible.

[airbus757]

Can someone please explain how the return flight from IAH is legal to operate as it is a 16:10 duty period. I must be missing something because I can't see how it is legal.

7

[fatbus]

ULR 22 hours limit, thats the new ops spec

[airbus757]

Yes I see, but what about this? And I quote...

3.1. The following restrictions are inviolable with regard to the scheduling of Flight
Crew for this plan:

3.1.1 Prior to undertaking a ULR flight, all crew members shall be acclimatized. All crew members scheduled to operate a ULR flight sector with a published Flight Time of 16 hours or more shall be
assigned a ULR Standby on the day before the flight.

The last time I looked IAH is more than 2 hours time zone difference from DXB.

7

[Gulf News]

Simple. The company interpretation of "flight" is actually "pairing". This is probably a deliberate misinterpretation of the CARS as has happened several times before when they find their backs against the wall. It wouldn't stand up in a court of law but then who is going to challenge on that level ? That is why there is no official definition in the FOM and Ed feels he needs to use acronyms like stage and mission to avoid inadvertently putting something down officially. :(

[kingoftheslipstream]

the flight is viewed as a pairing, beginning with the outbound DXB-IAH sector, the return is a continuation of the pairing, so you only need to be acclimatized ex-DXB, not from IAH...

[airbus757]

As I read the rules concerning there are many instances where they talk about a "flight" and a "pairing".

1.4 The number of flight sectors within a single pairing is restricted to a maximum
of 4 for planning purposes.

1.5 A ULR flight may only be planned as a single flight sector unless operational
restrictions require an en-route landing on the day of operation.

1.7 A maximum of 2 ULR pairings may be awarded or assigned during any calendar month.

2.1. The schedule for an individual ULR pairing and the applicable rest strategy requirements are shown in the applicable Rest Strategy Plan.

The point I am making is that they do acknowledge a difference between "pairing" and "flight" in the document. So when they say flight they mean flight.

Gulf News, I think you are correct. It wouldn't stand up in court, which makes me wonder who will be the defendant, the company or the Pilot in Command.

7

[kingoftheslipstream]

airbus757, Gulf News and uplock

I reckon you're all correct and betwixt ya' the ugly truth is revealed... it's a tough egg ta crack.

Duty of care indeed... comin' from TCAS it has all the sincerity of a television evangelist... :\

[Ramboflyer 1]

Just remember where you are based. EK dont give a rats arse about any incident or accident , the aircraft are insured so is passenger liability . The FOM is written in a way where the Captain will always take the blame . company collects insurance gets new aircraft life goes on. While a poor crew rots in prison because there is no union and really no legal protection. Its a real longshot that this could happen but the company will always be absolved from blame.
By making unions illegal , it not only stops strikes but also stops protection for workers, ie slaves never had any work protection throughout the centuries.:{
The quick command sounds great but just think what you are getting yourself into.
The salary at the moment is not worth leaving home for.

[The Real Pink Baron]

Wow!!! This is a nightmare

[menard]

Keeeeeeeeeeeeeeep discoveringggggggggggggggggggggggggg

[menard]

please press 2........

[oz in dxb]

FOM Chapter 21 page 5:
FTL 1.1
Intent of this Scheme:
In essence the CAR requires that a crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require him to fly, if either has a reason to believe that he is suffering or is likely to suffer, while flying from such as fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.

I think that the above (for us crew members) applies to us pretty much all of the time!
The words "require" "shall not" "suffering" "likely to suffer" "endager the safety" as above means that we should be not fit to fly on the majority of sectors which we do. However we do.

Maybe it's time to follow the rules as they are laid down and then wait to see what happens.

Oz

[menard]

Oz is not refering at day flights, is talking about all the rest (approx75%) of ugly night excursions.

The very subject of the thread is the ULR's, and I agree that if you think you gonna be too fatigue to safely operate the flight...You shouldn't operate.

[Basil-Fawlty]

:oh:You can not keep ignoring the DVT and UV light long term exposures factor. The fact that you are in a pressurised cabin for all that time regardless whether you are flying or not the effect is the same. You are in it.

Pilots are not supermen or immune form such occurrences nor the long term effect from these exposures.

Airlines management need to fly on a regular basis with the aircraft like the crew to see how would it feel after an ULR flight. I guarantee you they will rethink again.

Airline management in that part of the world especially were there are no unions in place to protect them will always continue to stretch the rules to suit their profit operation without due care or the impact that could have on your health.

Before you know it your layover will be considered part of your annual leave. As long as you let them get away with it they (the airlines) will continue doing it.

Airlines has no loyalty regardless of how brilliant you are or how long you have served with them. The late Captain Raad of GF airline is a classic example of the way an airline reward their employee after 30 years service.

As for an ASR reaction, the airline will only react seriously when a serious accident take place, look at the airline in turkey that recently suffered a fatal accident on one of their aircraft. I believe they fired the entire management and so they should after the loss of over 100 people.

DO NOT KID YOUR SELF FATIGUE LEAD TO A FATAL ERROR:(.

happy & Safe flying to all from Sybil, Polly and Manuel!:ok:

BF

[Kapitanleutnant]

Seaman Staynes....

While not with Delta, I was with a comparable company flying 777's. The schedule for that was this...

Anything over 8 hours required 3rd crew. Over 12 hours required 4th crew.
Their schedule was quite nice actually. They flew 2 six day trips per month for about 76 hours of flying. That means 12 days flying and 18 off. One of the best rosters I've ever seen at an airline. Needless to say I was envious!!

Crew rest for that type flying was keen as well.... Bunk was right behind the flight deck and crew also had reserved first class seat blocked off for use if he chose not to use bunk during rest break.

Doesn't seem EK has quite that nice a roster, eh?

K

[mini cooper]

K

That's interesting - anybody care to send the info to one of those ***** in managment to show them how the real world works! It may show them how, on many levels - fatigue, comfort, rostering, common sense all helps get morale up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IXNAT]

But is you saw the flight attendant grannies at Delta, you might change your mind about their "good deal".;) Seriously, they don't have what you guys call factoring. All time on the aircraft is flight time for the month and year. It has taken Delta years to get into the modern jet era of rest. Crew rest used to be taken in the cockpit, then a biz seat, and now finally some real rest facilities. Of course now, they have no first class. Do you guys get an augmented crew when you fly over eight hours? And one other thing, some of my old buddies at Delta say that their layovers in
Dubai are anywhere from 48 to 72 hours. Ya'll fly safe now.

[Gillegan]

Has anyone noticed that there are, in general, no fatigue related ASR's posted on the latest summary and that specifically, there are no ASR's related to the 24 hour layover in IAH? Has anyone submitted one?

[EGGW]

You took the words right outta my mouth!!! I find it hard to believe there wasn't 1 submitted, or perhaps they are all superhumans that week :yuk::yuk:

EGGW

[Kamelchaser]

I quick review of the ASRs for the last six weekly periods (all 7 day periods) indicates the following number of ASRs reported on the portal;

(starting from early Jan);

63, 62, 89, 87, 69,....and last week...50.

Did we have a really good week, or is my paranoid mind telling me we're not being told the full truth. (the truth is out there, but it would seem not with this airline)

I would assume 7 fatigue ASRs from the IAH flights would bring last week's numbers somewhere up to a realistic, but still very low figure.

So...did anyone on this forum submit a fatigue ASR that hasn't yet been published?

[Far Kinarss]

Latest letter on the portal states a standby day will be rostered the day prior to operating a Houston flight. This standby day will be ADDED to the day off on your roster and the standby is from 0700-1400. In other words the day off before the flight is not a day off as it is standby but the company still regard it as a day off as that is what will be shown on your roster.
Another grab by the company; when will it end???

[nuigini]

Always complaining. Always.

[Marooned]

Always got something to complain about at EK. Always.

[Kamelchaser]

I've just read the letter from the talking horse, and I completely agree with Far Kinarse. (great name by the way)

What a great way of now allocating a standby period, but also including it as one of your limited days off for the month.

So what is...standby, or a day off? I really can't see how they can call it both.

I know in the past, crewing have illegally gone back over rosters and changed a standby day that wasn't used into a day off to make a roster legal.

I can't be arsed getting into the FOM to extract exact definitions to discover the legality or not of Ed's latest spin, but maybe someone who reads that manual at bedtime might be able to help?

And speaking of EdSpin, don't ya just love the phrases "sub-optimal" and "going forward" in his latest letter? He'd make such a good politician, I'd vote him as the first horse to be elected as US president. (actually that's not right is it...there is already an ass in office right now.)

[Plank Cap]

Ok gents, here's how it worked on my latest IAH with a 24hr layover. I went - I rested in accordance with the ULR rest plan - I returned - I filed my ASR, as promised in my previous post. My roster then had 2 days off followed by a 10 hour flight to another exotic EK destination. Well, guess what, I called up Crewing and pronounced myself SKF (fatigued) for that subsequent duty. As expected, a call to go and see the nice doctors at the clinic was quickly received, and so off I went to have the fairly pointless chat with the Doc.
But here's the thing - no comeback from the company (as yet) as what I did was entirely legal and from my point of view, respnsible and correct, to avoid flying the next duty whilst still fatigued from the IAH. I am sorry for the guy who got called out to cover for me, but if I were on standby I would do the same for him - and we have to dig in over these unsafe 24hr ULR pairings. If still fatigued after your flight, do NOT operate your next duty. If we do this enough, they'll get the message.............

[Kamelchaser]

You miss the point a wee bit uplock...as you rightly point out, the FCI has been out for a while, but the latest Edspin indicates they've been using normal reserve/stby resources since the pattern was introduced, rather than dedicated reserve for that flight as per the required plan.

They've obviously been picked up on it, and now, as they don't have the resources to properly man the dedicated standby, they're using this "standby duty, but a day off if you don't get called out" concept.

And why is every time a person injects a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour into this forum, someone has to come up with a high-and-mighty reposte, rather than taking it as the light-hearted comment it was intended? Has EK destroyed our sense of humour as well as our souls?

[peternorth]

Ok, heres the way I read the definition of a day off...."Free of Duty with 2 consecutive local nights, to enjoy lesiurely pursuits to benefit mankind and/or for relaxation" and standby duty as "company places restraints on a crew member who would otherwise be off duty".

So your off duty but lesiurely restrained to relax... its not that bad, like the alley scene in cruisin with Al Pachino......Maybe the wearing the blue crew jammies on your standby day would be restraining enough.

happy standby day off

[rick.shaw]

Unfortunately, many airlines (like EK) are pushing and pushing the limits when it comes to work hours and rest (or lack of). It is way too simplistic to assume that just because you have rest available, that rest is actually usefull. To expect a pilot to get much usefull rest during their body clock daytime is ridiculous. CX's answer is always 'it's legal'. Alas it won't be until there is a brown smudge on the ground that these issues will be properly addressed and made public. Airlines know that they are pushing the limits. And they will keep pushing until all those cheese holes line up one day and....

The long term effects of ULTRA long haul have yet to be known. Just talk to anyone in the airlines who has switched from long haul to short haul. They will more than likely tell you that they feel so much more alive. After years of long haul, you just don't realise the toll it has been taking on your body.

What goes up... I am very happy for you that you can sleep for 7 hours. I am also happy that you have lots of empathy for those that can't sleep in the daytime or very well in an aluminium tube. It's nice that us Captains can pick and choose our rest!

Those who challenge management to fly some of these patterns are naive. Management know all too well that some of these patterns are potentially unsafe. In my opinion, this makes them culpable if fatigue is a major factor in any accident/incident. Remember, no matter where in the world you are, it is YOUR licence, reputation and livelihood that is ultimately on the line.

[EK Pilot]

I agree with you PETER N, a day off is a day off, as per definition in FTL.

Now...Lets say that you have 2 ULR flights in one month; they can now use those two days "off/stand by" as part of your maximum 14 therefore reducing your maximum days off to 12.

Yet another shaft...well done Eddy.

Something had to be done to be able to man the ULR operational plan while we wait for Ed's American friends to join the company.

[BIKKERDENNAH]

Here is the rundown on ULR firstly the talking horse has said that the IAH layover will be extended to 48 hours this is still illegal!!!! Please follow.

Lets just look at IAH (Houston)

DEP DXB 0905 arrive Houston 1625 Local (16hrs20m) more than 14 hours so it is ULR by definition.

FCI 2007-076 Date 24 sep 2007 eff 01 oct 2007 UFN.

Signed by CAPT ED DAVIDSON (SVP FLEET)

ULR GENERIC OPERATION PLAN REFERS...........

CH1 GENERAL 1.5

A ULR FLIGHT may only be planned as a SINGLE FLIGHT sector unless operational restrictions require an enroute landing on day od operation.

CH3 ROSTERING PROVISIONS CREW-FLIGHT CREW

3.1 The following restrictions are INVIOLABLE with regard to the scheduling of flight crew for this plan....

3.1.1 Prior to undertaking a ULR FLIGHT, all crew members shall be ACCLIMATIZED.

DEFINITION OF ACCLIMATIZED FOM 5.1 REFERS...........

When a crew member has spent 3 CONSECUTIVE LOCAL nights on the ground within a time zone which is 2 hours wide,and is able to take uninterrupted local night sleep. IF a duty period ENDS at a station outside 2 hours local time difference from point of departure the crew is NOW UNNACCLIMATIZED UNTIL 3 LOCAL consecutive nights are spent within the new referenced station time zone band!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

DEFINITION OF LOCAL NIGHT FOM 5.12 refers..............

A period 0f 8 hours falling between 2200 and 0800 hours local time..

So to sum up.

This is a ULR FLIGHT...

Prior to a ULR FLIGHT the crew MUST be ACCLIMATIZED....

So now lets just take a look at what EK does and what needs to be done to make this flight legal under the SIGNED AND APPROVED document by MR ED SVP FLEET....

DXB HOUSTON (IAH) DEP 0905L arr IAH 1625 L for example on the 16th APRIL.

SIGN OFF 1655 L APP 22 hours rest in the HOTEL before doing the next ULR FLIGHT UNACCLIMATIZED back to DUBAI!! Totally totally illegal guys.... your arses are not covered at all your dangle berries are dangln in the wind be careful!!

The talking horse has now mentioned that the layover will change soon to 48 hours STILL VERY VERY NAUGHTY AND ILLEGAL GUYS , HERE IS WHY!!!!:eek:


Back to example..

16th APRIL Arr IAH and sign off 1655 local

16th APRIL 1st local night 2200 til 0800 L

17th APRIL 2nd local night...

18th APRIL 3rd local night 2200 til 0800L but only need to rest til 0600 L as long as you have 8 hours consecutive!! So you can leave on your ULR FLIGHT on the morning of the 18th MINIMUM 61 hours from your arrival to IAH MINIMUM to be acclimatized and legal.

However the flight does not leave IAH until 1850 LOCAL so the crews MUST be rostered to be off duty 1850 minus 1 1750 LOCAL which leaves us with a grand total of 72hours and 55 mins layover in ULR to fit the EK program and make this ULR FLIGHT LEGAL....

So to go and change an illegal flight from 22 hours to another illegal flight of 48hours is a complete joke and makes a complete mockery of any legal documentation that EK produces!!!!! REMEMBER you need 3 local nights when outside a timezone of 2plus hours to be acclimatized!!!

ED and fleet you must take note and behave accordingly if you want to operate within the bounds of legality and reap the rewards financially from ULR FLIGHTS......

Nuff Said:rolleyes:

[TangoUniform]

Bikkerdennah,
Very good explaination and analysis. But we are preaching to the choir here, boys. Send this to fleet and Ed. It would be interesting what their official response would be, if any.

[jumbo1]

great post but when they say Flight - they actually mean Pairing (to be acclimatized that is). Even though the book says flight. Be hard to get that in writing or changed though
:}

[BIKKERDENNAH]

back to the top this must go....:cool:

[forum newbie]

I just called the FAA in Houston and spoke to an administrator about the 24 hour rest. He was not aware of it. He told me that he has never heard of this before. I expect a phone call to EK soon. I am leavig for my interview in a couple of days and hopefully i will see you guys in dubai.

[BIKKERDENNAH]

TOO IMPORTANT TO BE FORGOTTEN!!

Ps JUMBO1 sorry matey but straight from the horses mouth. ULR FLIGHT is just that ONE SECTOR period. A pairing is the whole pattern A to B back to A!!

:ok:

[Gulf News]

Ps JUMBO1 sorry matey but straight from the horses mouth
Which Horse ?:rolleyes:

[SOPS]

Yes..I would like to know the same

[jumbo1]

Bikker
I know that mate - just being facetious.
:ok:

[IXNAT]

Somebody a few posts ago wanted to know what the Delta rest patterns are etc., flying into and out of Dubai.

The rest facility is the standard Boeing one, behind the cockpit with chairs and two bunks upstairs. The overnight is anywhere from three days to six days. Part of that is due to the fact they don't do the trip daily.

The guys I talk to enjoy the layover for a few days-but six?

Caution: Thread creep ahead. Any word on who will fly your 747-8fs. Here at "Giant" we hear all sorts of rumors, EK pilots will, we will. Changes weekly. Anyone know.

[BIKKERDENNAH]

lets not see this one slip down the list!! Way too important :ok:

Here is the rundown on ULR firstly the talking horse has said that the IAH layover will be extended to 48 hours this is still illegal!!!! Please follow.

Lets just look at IAH (Houston)

DEP DXB 0905 arrive Houston 1625 Local (16hrs20m) more than 14 hours so it is ULR by definition.

FCI 2007-076 Date 24 sep 2007 eff 01 oct 2007 UFN.

Signed by CAPT ED DAVIDSON (SVP FLEET)

ULR GENERIC OPERATION PLAN REFERS...........

CH1 GENERAL 1.5

A ULR FLIGHT may only be planned as a SINGLE FLIGHT sector unless operational restrictions require an enroute landing on day of operation.

CH3 ROSTERING PROVISIONS CREW-FLIGHT CREW

3.1 The following restrictions are INVIOLABLE with regard to the scheduling of flight crew for this plan....

3.1.1 Prior to undertaking a ULR FLIGHT, all crew members shall be ACCLIMATIZED.

DEFINITION OF ACCLIMATIZED FOM 5.1 REFERS...........

When a crew member has spent 3 CONSECUTIVE LOCAL nights on the ground within a time zone which is 2 hours wide,and is able to take uninterrupted local night sleep. IF a duty period ENDS at a station outside 2 hours local time difference from point of departure the crew is NOW UNNACCLIMATIZED UNTIL 3 LOCAL consecutive nights are spent within the new referenced station time zone band!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

DEFINITION OF LOCAL NIGHT FOM 5.12 refers..............

A period 0f 8 hours falling between 2200 and 0800 hours local time..

So to sum up.

This is a ULR FLIGHT...

Prior to a ULR FLIGHT the crew MUST be ACCLIMATIZED....

So now lets just take a look at what EK does and what needs to be done to make this flight legal under the SIGNED AND APPROVED document by MR ED SVP FLEET....

DXB HOUSTON (IAH) DEP 0905L arr IAH 1625 L for example on the 16th APRIL.

SIGN OFF 1655 L APP 22 hours rest in the HOTEL before doing the next ULR FLIGHT UNACCLIMATIZED back to DUBAI!! Totally totally illegal guys.... your arses are not covered at all your dangle berries are dangln in the wind be careful!!

The talking horse has now mentioned that the layover will change soon to 48 hours STILL VERY VERY NAUGHTY AND ILLEGAL GUYS , HERE IS WHY!!!!:eek:


Back to example..

16th APRIL Arr IAH and sign off 1655 local

16th APRIL 1st local night 2200 til 0800 L

17th APRIL 2nd local night...

18th APRIL 3rd local night 2200 til 0800L but only need to rest til 0600 L as long as you have 8 hours consecutive!! So you can leave on your ULR FLIGHT on the morning of the 18th MINIMUM 61 hours from your arrival to IAH MINIMUM to be acclimatized and legal.

However the flight does not leave IAH until 1850 LOCAL so the crews MUST be rostered to be off duty 1850 minus 1 1750 LOCAL which leaves us with a grand total of 72hours and 55 mins layover in ULR to fit the EK program and make this ULR FLIGHT LEGAL....

So to go and change an illegal flight from 22 hours to another illegal flight of 48hours is a complete joke and makes a complete mockery of any legal documentation that EK produces!!!!! REMEMBER you need 3 local nights when outside a timezone of 2plus hours to be acclimatized!!!

ED and fleet you must take note and behave accordingly if you want to operate within the bounds of legality and reap the rewards financially from ULR FLIGHTS......

Nuff Said:rolleyes:
Last edited by BIKKERDENNAH : 16th April 2008 at 11:15.

[GMDS]

Bikker

It might be legal, as far as paper produced by EK can be considered base for a professional legality. However if you check what most serious main operators do with such flights, a 72h layover looks like a SQ exeption. I have stated earlier that most respected research into flight fatigue revealed, that on ULR flight layovers you would need two sleep cycles to get into a safe working condition again. This is minimal 36h, most operators then go for a two night layover pattern.
The "acclimatised" definition by EK is a derivate of such research, adapted to their needs and badly layed down. To take this screw-up as a base to demand a 72h layover is, imho, going too far with too feeble arguments. Make no mistake, a 24h layover just as much, and purely unsafe to add to the scam.
I am happy to settle with 48h, it would then conform to international standards and to the research of serious institutes. Goes with it, naturally, that the LAX, SFO and GRU patterns MUST follow.