Oxford Aviation & HSBC Question

[K-EVIN08]

Hi all (this is my first post so please be gentle)

I am 24 and have already passed the following Licences and Ratings
PPL (A) & NQ

I am looking to complete my CPL/ATPL with Oxford Aviation and would be looking at applying for the HSBC loan.

The problem is i was declared Bankrupt on 2005 and the have been discarged from my bakruptcy on 2005.

Has anyone else applied for this loan while been banrupt or have had your time spent as a bankrupt person. (can my wife take out the HSBC loan for me)

Any help on this would be a great plus point.

Thanks

KEVIN

[VFR Transit]

Have you tried contacting HSBC or Oxford????

VFR

[Grass strip basher]

Ask yourself if you were a bank in the middle of a credit crunch and someone who had recently declared themselves bankrupt came and asked for a loan for tens of thousands of pounds on an unsecured basis would you give it to them?? No offence but you reap what you sow... :ugh:
Good luck getting the loan

[chris-squire]

Uh just to add to the above....

HSBC no longer operate the PSL on an unsecured basis. You have to have at least a significant chunk if not the whole thing secured.

Don't get me wrong, you may well still be able to get a loan through HSBC to help fund you training, but it won't be deferred or at the same rates at the fully secured PSL.

If you have been discharged from bankruptcy and you can offer HSBC security and a top notch business plan then they will lend you as much as you need within reason. They're not quite as cavalier as they once were with lending to trainee pilots but as long as their money is safe then their happy.

I'm just about to turn 22 and have got 55k sorted. Security going through at the mo so don't give up fella. The 'credit crunch' isn't quite as bad as the news likes to make out!

Hope this helps.

CS :ok:

[dartagnan]

be serious, who is going to give 55K to a guy in this profession?
I even think, it 's soon the end of Oxford, and Oxford will be reserved only for rich daddy's kids who come to school with Ferrari.
Get a job and save money...time for loan/bankrupt is over:ouch:.

[nickmanl]

Get a job and save money? Saving anything up to 60k could take a very long time. Even if you did save that money then the age you are likely to be by then will mean for many life would have taken its course, resulting in many people having houses and families to run and support. How on earth are people expected to upsticks and start training then? What you suggests Dartagnan is not practical whatsoever. It will only lead to a shortage of pilots in the future. The scaremongering and negativity on the website is absolutely shocking at times. People should be encouraging others not making riduculous unsubstantiated statements. This is hardly the first credit crunch in the history of time is it!

[chris-squire]

Nickmanl - Thank god for some bloody common sense! :D

Apologies but the post after my last one saying "get serious, whos going to give a guy 55k in this profession". H S B C !!!! I had my loan approved only a month or so ago.

Nick's right, the negativity on here pisses me off. I fully agree with the idea of keeping your debt to a bare minimm and if you're really not sure you can get through the training, get a job and ultimately pay the bank back then don't do it! The fact that HSBC won't lend unsecured anymore so that already says that they've already lost their confidence. Their money is safe so long as it's fully secured so it's not really like they're risking anything anymore. It's great that they've kept the option of deferrment open but don't mistake this for the bank being naieve, they still make a serious amount of money out of these loans being the ONLY bank in the UK that will help finance flight training.

I'm just coming up 22 but even at a young age saving up just isn't an option in my planning. It's not fair on my partner who will want a house in the next few years. I'm very much NOT a case of 'I want an ATPL and I want it now', but rather'I want an ATPL but there are other people in my life to consider'.

Chris :ok:

[Skintman]

Dartagnan - hardly helpfull comments. Not all OAT grads are rich kids. Many have to secure loans against their or their parents properties. Takes some bottle.

I think some are misssing the main point. HSBS loans are secured. Thus it is less important about the individuals credit history as long as the bank can get their funds back if the deal goes T**S UP.

HSBC have only been offering secured loans for a number of years now, so it was pre the credit crunch. Just sensible pragmatic banking.

You need to talk to OAT/HBOS and find out their views. Don't try and hudwink them by doing it via someone else. Hardly a good start to a financial deal. they may be less than pleased if they find out and your credit rating could sink even further.

Most lenders will load you funds as long as it is secured. Different completely if unsecured, then you would have nil chance.

Good luck.:ok:

Skintman.

[chris-squire]

Good comments skint man :D

The whole idea behind a credit history is for the lender to have some idea of your previous history of paying back what you have borrowed. However if the bank has another form of knowing you'll pay back what you owe i.e your parents house, then they won't be quite as worried about your individual record.

As for any ideas about ducking out on the bank or taking the money and running to another school that isn't OAT or Cabair.... I didn't see where this was mentioned so not sure why it came up but whatever the reason.... trying to con the bank in any way shape or form is rediculous and only helps to ruin it for everyone else. i.e people like me who have to have their loan now secured on parents property thanks to too many people deliberately going bankrupt. :=

CS

[AjB00]

Bank dealings with clients and FTOs are quite bespoke, for this reason you wont find much information about the possible finance available to you online. You can still get unsecured loans from HSBC with help from a select few FTOs. May I suggest you approach CTC :ok:when they are accepting applicants. That is all.

[chris-squire]

Ajb00 - You can get unsecured loans for upto 25k but they won't be deferred so you would have to make payments whilst you're training. This wouldn't be done as a PSL either so the interest rate will be higher. With that in mind, you can shop around for the best deal and train where you like providing you have the rest of the money in hand and are able to make the repayments throughout.

CS :ok:

[Adios]

Having recently researched the HSBC/OAT PSL, I'd like to set the record straight because most of what has been posted is incorrect.

They offer up £25K unsecured and sometimes require a parental guarantee for this loan, but not always. Interest rate is base rate plus 2-3/4% and they do give deferred repayments with the due date six months post training.

They offer up to £50K secured against home equity. Repayments deferred until six months post completion. Interest rate is base rate plus 2%.

The original poster seems to be going down the Modular route, so those who assume he is looking for £50K or £60K are reading too much into the thread. The maximum HSBC will loan for Modular training is £25K, either secured or unsecured.

They definitely will not grant the loan to anyone who has filed bankruptcy, even if it is discharged.

I spoke to the the HSBC Oxford loan officer about this only a month ago, plus several email followups, so I'm pretty sure my facts are up to date. Both loans are a PSL, no payments during training, 11 years to repay £50K or 8 to repay £25K, first payment due six months after completion of the training.

[chris-squire]

Just what's needed, yet more incorrect information that has been poorly researched.... :ugh:

1) I'll be training on the Airline Entry Scheme through Cabair (which is Modular when all's said and done) and got 55k only a month ago so that shoots down that one straight away.

2) The interest rate is exactly 2% above base. Where does the 2.75% above base come into it? Or are OAT students are getting sting for a higher interest rate???

3) You have a maximum of 2 years from training start date to commence repayments.

4) My loan is 100% secured against my parents property so the maximum of 50k isn't true.

5) HSBC will lend you whatever can be secured (within reason). They have little interest in how much you borrow, only that you can pay it back or failing all else, they can reclaim it from your parents house.

Apologies for flying off the handle on this one and whilst I don't pretend to know it all; I am in the middle of the loan process so am current as anyone.

Adios, I don't want to appear arrogant here but my advice would be to speak to the bank direct before speaking to the loan officer who clearly isn't all that up to date, which is slightly worrying! :uhoh:

I'm sure the amount available is dependant on the security that you can offer and the quality of the business plan that you send in with your application.

CS :ok:

[dartagnan]

I would be ashamed to jeopardize my parent's house!!!
do they know how hard it is to get a job?
will you take care of them when they will lose their house?

this is scandalous, and of course, student borrowing money don't care because they think they will join BA and make lot of money.

but what if you don't get the job?
if you lose your medical?

[chris-squire]

Not half as ashamed as I would be coming on a forum pretending to be a muskateer!

Jesus christ, have you actually got anything positive or helpful to say because if not I suggest you take your comments elsewhere. They aren't productive and I'm sure I'm not the only one that they're pissing off.

What stage of your training are you at now or are you a working pilot? And how did you fund or are planning to fund your training???

My parents are fully aware of the risk and have made damn sure that my contingencies are sufficient to cover the payments. If I thought for one second that there was any serious risk of my parents losing their house through me not being able to make the repayments then I wouldn't be doing it.

Do you think people like me merrily wlak into the bank and say "here you go HSBC, have the deeds to my parents house just incase I balls up"???

Get a grip mate!

[Adios]

Chris,

Yes you have flown off the handle a bit. My research is adequate and my source is the PSL loan officer at HSBC Oxford.

The title of this thread is Oxford Aviation and OAT, not HSBC and Cabair.

Each branch of HSBC that oversees a PSL for their nearby flight school offers different terms. I know HSBC in Milton Keynes are offering as much as £60K secured and I would not be surprised if they occasionally go higher. I should have been clearer in saying your information was not accurate as regards OAT.

HSBC also offers a loan to CTC Wings cadets and they can get at least £60K unsecured.

In conclusion, everything you posted may be true and accurate for Cabair students, but it is not accurate for OAT students.

The only exception I know of to the £50K limit at OAT is for their airline cadets who can borrow up to £60K secured. I didn't see a need to bring that up in responding to the original question, since it is apparent he is a Modular student.

I did miss one question in the original post. I doubt that a student's wife can't get a PSL for him. She might be able to take out a mortgage or home equity loan in her name and let him use the money, but that is not a PSL and it won't be possible if the home is owned jointly.

I must say though, that your response to Dartagnan is spot on. It's too bad this forum's software doesn't let you add certain member's to an ignore list so you never have to read their tripe again!

[Groundloop]

if you lose your medical?

Any SANE person would take out insurance against this! But then we are talking about Dartagnan!:}

[saffron]

Dartagnan posts all over pprune,I gather he is an experienced pilot,but very cynical.I can't remember ever having seen a positive post from him. Come on Dartagnan make our day,post something positive!
On the subject of pay,yes aviation is not the city,you will never earn millions,but most senior captains earn close to £100 K pa,(including flight pay,per diem,sector pay,etc)not one of my colleagues in airline/corporate flying earns much less,this is decent professional pay,& puts one in the top 0.01% of the world's earners(How rich are you? Website)That said,pay is crap when you start,but so it is in other professions.

[chris-squire]

Adios - Yeah fair point, this is about HSBC and OAT and I'm with Cabair. CTC Students are indeed financed for 60k but it is secured in the form of a bond so it is still secured. No bank in their right mind will lend anyone 60k unsecured. I have a friend who went through CTC about a year ago and they had to be bonded so unless thats changed....

HSBC don't deal with it at branch level just like that I'm afraid, I found that out the hard way! As far as I know only HSBC Cranfield deals with PSL's for pilots. She works 2 days a week I believe. However, I would speak to OAT about this just incase I'm wrong but everything I've ever heard points to only one person @ HSBC dealing with this. (As unbelieveable as that may sound!)

As I said, I think you need to have a chat with HSBC about what they will be prepared to lend and on what terms. They will be able to help somewhat more than just the loan officer at OAT.

Good luck.

CS :ok:

[nickmanl]

would be ashamed to jeopardize my parent's house!!!
do they know how hard it is to get a job?
will you take care of them when they will lose their house?

this is scandalous, and of course, student borrowing money don't care because they think they will join BA and make lot of money.

but what if you don't get the job?
if you lose your medical?

Firstly, if I was you I would be so ashamed to be speaking in such a patronising, ignorant and arrogant manner towards someone else on these message boards. Who on earth are you to criticise someone's ambitions? Do you not think for a minute parents and the student would not talk through the issue of the loan being secured on the house? Students are fully aware of the situation and what is being held on their shoulders. Also, most of the students I know are fully aware of how difficult it is to get a job at the end of their course. I have not met anyone who is believes they will waltz into BA on a mammoth salary. Some of the graduates (a select minority of course) will however start off with BA at a very competitive salary. I have it on good authority BA will be looking for 2000 pilots in the next 5 years and are thinking about opening up a sponsorship scheme similar to NetJets and Flybe with a flight training college very soon. However difficult you like to proclaim it is, it is not impossible to find employment. Most students also engage their brains and produce viable contigency plans should they not seek gainful employment at the end of their training. Your suggestion that wannabees are jeopardizing is scaremongering. As long as they can find employment in another field and can afford the monthly repayments it is of no concern to HSBC as to what that employment may actually be.

I would also like to put it to you Dartagnan, what if you don't lose your medical and what if you do get a job? Funny that for every negative bit of spin you put on something there may also be a positive side. What would happen if you lost your medical or your job or does the negativity not work the other way around? Do you not want other people to succeed where you have?

Sorry to go off topic guys. I have no problem with people offering realistic advice about the gravity of the situation wannabees put themselves in, but comments like the above are simply further degrading the reputation of pprune. Sometimes if all you want to do is snipe and bitch then it may be better not to contribute at all and go away and moan somewhere else. If you have children Dartagnan and if they come to you saying they want to do something, will you discourage them from following their aspirations?

Back to the topic, HSBC Oxford will only provide 50k I think towards the integrated route although I think HSBC MK will go slightly further.

[chris-squire]

NickmanL - Glad to see I'm not the only one that Dartagnan has seriosuly pissed off!

I'm guessing that since the Mr Muskateer doesn't approve of borrowing money to move on in life then he also doesnt approve of borrowing to buy a house for his family. Dartagnan consider this and see how this makes you feel and then think how your comments make people such as myself feel... If YOU lose YOUR medical or YOUR job then who is going to look after YOUR family. Surely you must be ashamed of yourself risking the roof over you family's heads????

Thought not. Although if I may be so bold as to ask...how did you pay for your training? If my thoughts are accurate then you probably didn't face the same problems that us newbee's do so hardly your right to talk to us like we're morons is it!

Just for the record, I'm not proud of my parents putting their house on the line. But after literally years of me trying every which way I could think of to get into the RHS this is what I am left with. I'm lucky in having such amazing parents. They offered, I didn't ask and I do feel terrible about it but all I can do is make sure that I can cover the payments if I don't get a job.

That's me done on this subject now, I'm just getting wound up by the whole thing.

CS :ok:

[K-EVIN08]

Thank you all for your posts (excluding Dartagnan).

Me going banrupt was not my fault and was forced into it after my business went through a big legal battle.

I started my business at the age of 15 and having taken one of my clients to court (which I WON) my client went banrupt and never pad me the amount of money owed which forced my business to fold.

Dartagnan...... You may well be a pilot and may well know your stuff but, who on earth gives you the right to slate everything and everyone for their own opinions.

This is the problem with pprune at times, when members are looking for advice o are trying to have a conversation people like you spoil it as you have no life yourself.


I have been wanting to start flying for some time now and having already got my JAR PPL(A), Night, ME, IR, IMC the next step was to join OAT.

My next step is to otain all my credit references and files and try to clear them up as best i can.

Thanks again for all your help and Happy New Year to you all.

Kevin

[chris-squire]

Kevin - Sorry to hear about your bad luck fella. Hope you get everything sorted out soon.

PPRUNE is a great resource so just ignore people like Dogtagnan or whatever he likes to call himself....people like that don't tend to understand the problems that newbee's such as you and I face in trying to achieve our common dream. As you rightly say they have nothing better to do than slate people who get off their arse and give it ago despite things being against them. :=

Best of luck mate.

Chris :ok:

[abwrath]

Dear Friends/Friend,

I will be applying to OAT very soon and have just come across the funding solutions provided by HSBC. MAX 50k apparently. I just want to ask if 50k is the appropriate amount to take u to America, fulfill all the training and come back..if there is a type rating...fund that with the 50k. IS 50k ENOUGH for OAT from zero hours to ATPL. Likewise with CABAIR and some flight schools in Ireland like SIGMAR AVIATION and PTC?

I'd be most grateful for this information

Thank you
Abrar

[HappyFran]

Abrar
I am sorry to advise you that £50K will not be enough.
With very careful budgetting and minm hours you may at least in theory get from zero to a JAA fATPL. (I am assuming you want a UK / Eur job at the end ?).
But life ain't like that, at least from a budgetting point of view.
I would allow £60K and that does not get you a job.
You will still have to find an airline that likes the look of your C.V.
Get yourself through an interview and Sim check.
Then comes the big question who will pay for the Type Rating. There is a strong move (RYR and many others) for you to have to pay for it. At the least they will want a bond for 3-5 years. (to my mind that is fair enough).
I think you need to think through a contingency plan that could fund you through these risks.
If you pop out the end with a job at a cost of only £50k :hmm: then great. but have a plan that can see funding for say £80K.
This should in you way put you off your dream, just need to have a element of realism.
Good Luck

[nickmanl]

Abwrath, if you are planning on doing the integrated ATPL at Oxford 50k is not enough as the course price alone is 68k, plus you need to budget for living expenses for the year so it is safe to say 75k is a more realistic figure. Modular is cheaper but I'm not sure as to the exact prices myself.

[Adios]

A few more points. OAT doesn't have a loan officer. JH is the Loan Officer at HSBC. He is full time and has a part time assistant, which is necessary due to the PSLs they do for Oxford Uni graduate students and the higher capacity of OAT vs. Cabair.

The CTC bond is certainly security as far as HSBC are concerned, but it's much different than having to put your own or your parents house up as security. Someone who gets a place on CTC Wings need not have property or a large pile of cash to do the course, though surely some cash will be needed.

Finally, one more fact Dartagnan has totally screwed up is that HSBC requires both life insurance and loss of medical insurance, so nobody who borrows from them for an fATPL bears the risk he so quickly slams everyone for slagging off onto their parents. Feeding the trolls attention makes them live another day, but feeding them facts makes them slither away! Has anybody heard from the little snake in the last 24 hours?

As a father, let me give you my thoughts on securing a loan. I hope to save enough that I could secure a modest loan and write a cheque for a major portion of whatever education my son needs when the time comes. I also hope he can save enough to have a chunk of his own skin and labour in the undertaking. I don't know if this will be for flight training, an Oxbridge education or what. Whether I actually write that cheque will depend very much on how he turns out, but I want to be ready if he becomes the sort of lad who can handle such a risk and responsibility well. The fact that your parents are doing this for you means they like the way you have turned out. Don't be ashamed of this, rather wear it as a badge of honour, with appropriate doses of humility, gratitude, love and respect for them and do them proud in your studies and with your results. I think this is probably what you were trying to express already though.

[chris-squire]

Adios - Ok apologies, I understood you to mean that this guy was the loan officer at OAT. Didn't realise that another branch dealt with them. I was under the impression it all went through Cranfield. As a side note to all, HSBC Bournemouth have recently done a deal with Cabair so loans will soon be available from that branch aswell!

CS :ok:

[MrHorgy]

I've scanned this thread quickly and it seems some people gets loans for something, while others don't. I used to work for HSBC (please don't take that as a hint to bombard me with PM's about loans, i'm busy on a TR :) ) and can tell you this might happen.

While I worked there I wanted a loan that wouldn't normally be approved through the regular channels/limits, but speaking to a branch manager he was able to approve it. In some cases, although HSBC stipulate certain guidelines for lending, if you have a good business plan and seem intelligent then there is no reason you won't get it. If I still worked there though i'd want security on a 55k loan in this market, offering it unsecured to me seems madness, especially with so many guys at OATS going to RYR where they nwill go onto a Brookfield contract!

Horgy

[chris-squire]

Good post Horgy... there you have it guys, straight from the ex-horses mouth as it were.

I was told categorically by K C @ Cabair only a few months ago that HSBC would not lend a PSL unsecured anymore but that there is still access to unsecured loans through HSBC. However these unsecured loans are only available down the normal channels of a bog standard personal loan with no deferred payments or preferential interest rates on offer.

Not sure if this helps any further but hey ho. Like Horgy says, the quality of your business plan speak volumes to the bank and could well be the difference between them saying yes and no to your requested amount. After all if you clearly demonstrate that you have worked out how much you need, justified why and then, most important of all, shown how you intend to pay them back come hell or high water with security....it's in their interest to lend you the money as they're going to make a killing on it by the time they've sold you the insurances etc that will go with it!

CS :ok:

[Adios]

Chris,

I think what you say, no unsecured PSLs, must only apply to Cabair as Oat students can still get them up to £25K. The bank's criteria will be higher, as is the interest rate, but the Oxford branch will consider doing it for those with good employment/earning records.

If nothing else, this thread should show that one needs to choose where they will train and then discover the financing options specific to that FTO.

[chris-squire]

Adios - This must be something that HSBC Oxford do exclusively. Im an Accountant at the mo running a finance department for 2 companies with a combined turnover of £15 million. So if my employment record doesnt get me 25k unsecured then obviously not alot more will! :ugh:

But as you say, they will give you a much higher interest rate for the privelage and to be honest if 45k out of 70k is secured then it doesnt make alot of difference. My parents said form the start that whilst they dont like the idea of securing against their house, they would prefer the whole amount to be secured if it gets a noticeably better interest rate.

As you say, this is bringing to light some interesting points. Although whilst I don't wish to seem touchy, it does sound like Cabair is being spoken about as second best to OAT here. Adios is slighty biased towards OAT and likewise myself with Cabair.

CS :)

[getoffmycloud]

Chris I think you will find anyone who has borrowed +£50k secured on the roof over mum and dads head is going to be somewhat touchy about anybody questioning their choice of training establishment.... it is a perfectly natural reaction when you spend that much money on something that is a "branded product" rather than paying much less for the bog standard version that does the same job.

[Adios]

Chris,

I am not saying anything at all about my opinion of the relative ranking or quality of either school and certainly not that one is better than the other. I am merely saying that HSBC offers different terms and conditions to students of each. I actually think it is pretty poor on HSBC's part to do so. Both are leading schools that get the job done well, so I should think their students are pretty evenly matched as far as risk to the bank goes. All I can reason out of these differences is that the bespoke PSLs for each school are not based on decisions taken at a centralized level of management, rather more locally.

The difference in interest rates offered by HSBC Oxford is .75% more for an unsecured loan and there are fewer upfront fees for the unsecured loan, so the increased cost due to higher interest is mitigated by about £350 to £400 less in fees. Since they only offer up to £25K unsecured and this loan has a shorter repayment period, the final cost is not as bad as one might think it will be. I do think the secured option is less expensive overall, but those who don't have security to offer and don't need a huge loan might find this option quite tolerable.

Getoffmycloud's comment is a bit judgmental and one could even say touchy. It's also off topic since this thread is not about the modular vs. integrated debate. Funny thing is that the guy who started the thread is training modular and I'm not sure Chris even said what route he is taking. This is simply a discussion of HSBC loans, not one about what various posters plan to do with the proceeds of the loan or why they made those choices. It's a bit rude to make people feel defensive about what is for each wannabe a very personal and difficult decision, especially when they didn't ask for such opinions, so it might be more genial and constructive to limit the thread to the exchange of factual, on topic information.

[chris-squire]

Yeah I've always got the impression that HSBC deal with the PSL at a local level. An additional 0.75% on unsecured borrowing is very good. I would have jumped at that if I had been offered it. As you say, different stipulations for different FTO's. Looks like OAT students are getting a very good deal out of the bank so good on ya. But I'll be sticking with Cabair none the less. :ok:

Personally, whilst I haven't ever really looked into OAT it is without a doubt a top notch FTO. However I have spent 4 years trying to get to where I am now and in those 4 years have really scrutinised Cabair to see if they are the FTO for me. Whilst I dont want to invite a debate on this, I would have to say that in my book Cabair, OAT & CTC are possibly the best all round packages out there....from what Ive seen that is. Im sure there are some great FTO's around but there must be a reason why HSBC only currently back 2 schools. Anyway, case closed on that because thats not what this thread is about.

On that bombshell I'm off to count some sheep after watching the rather thought provolking but slightly bizarre movie that is 'I Am Legend'.

Hapy landings all! :ok:

[Adios]

Chris,

It's horses for courses, but there is a fourth one worth mentioning; FTE. HSBC doesn't deal with them simply because they are in Spain, which I think is shortsighted of them, as far as the British FTE students go. On the other hand, from what I have seen, BBVA London actually has better terms on almost every count for FTE Students than HSBC offers to either Oxford or Cabair students, so all it really means is that HSBC loses the opportunity to potentially gain some future high net worth individuals as loyal customers from the beginning of their careers.

Finally, OAT students don't have it better, just different. The secured loan limit is lower and the course price higher, so they need to raise more cash to start than you had to. The same applies when comparing OAT to CTC and FTE as well. The only caveat to this is that the OAT graduate will be better off later in one way if they have a smaller debt load, but the upfront cash requirement prevents many from choosing OAT. It's hard to call one option better than the others, so suffice to say they are just different.

I saw "I am Legend" last week. I'm sure with all the GM and cloning research going on, they intended it to be thought provoking. It was good, but had my wife hanging on to my arm from the first 10 minutes. I thought the spiritual overtones they brought in at the end were interesting for something coming out of Hollywood. Well, enough thread drift!

I wish you the best with your training and eventual job hunt.