Flexwings on a JAA Licence

[twistedenginestarter]

I've looked at LASORS and various internet sites but so far I can't see whether if you have a JAA SEP licence you can simply get a 'type' rating for microlights, particularly flexwing weight shift planes. Does anybody know what the rules are?

[S-Works]

You require differences training and a sign off.

[Shunter]

Splendid, I might have a crack at them when the weather warms up. Quite fancy trying a flying tent.

[twistedenginestarter]

Thanks, Bose. Do you have to get it renewed on a regular basis?

Shunter: These things are really wierd. There's virtually nothing in the way of controls. I still can't figure how they don't crash. The big bar which you can move is a bit of a mystery. If you're going straight-and-level and you move the wing up, lo-and-behold you're still going straight and level. If you move it to the right the plane goes left. But...... they're so cheap to run.

[S-Works]

As long as your licence is valid you can fly anything you have had differences training on. Just remember that microlight flight on an SEP PPL does not count towards revalidation.

[The Flying Pram]

If you're going straight-and-level and you move the wing up, lo-and-behold you're still going straight and level.Must be a very different flexwing to the one I've been flying for the last 17 years.... The control bar does exactly the same as a normal control yoke or column, except it does it back to front compared to what you're used to. So push right and go left, push forward sky gets bigger, then if you keep pushing it gets MUCH smaller!! It's otherwise known as "Weightshift" - move the C of G around in a conventional A/C and it will respond accordingly, all we are doing is moving the combined weight of pilot, passenger, engine & fuel around to persuade the wing to fly other than straight and level. Change the power setting and it might initially seem odd, all that happens is that the trike will swing forward or back, and then the aircraft will climb or descend. Simple really!!

[xrayalpha]

BoseX,

Where does it say you must have differences training and a sign off?

I know the rules if you want an NPPL (microlights) licence and you have a JAA licence - or indeed any other licence - but where is this about differences training being obligatory.

With the old PPL(A) it wasn't, and with the JAR/JAA thingy, I thought the problem is that ICAO and JAA can't agree what a microlight is, so they can't say their licence doesn't cover them.

Whereas with the NPPL, the UK CAA can and does (and specifies the different types too).

Very best

XA

ps. Not that I think you should jump into a flexwing without a try first!

Although, with the single seat deregulated models, all you need is a pilot's licence - so any need for conversion training there?

(it is possible to get a microlight licence without doing any dual training, as well!)

[S-Works]

As I understand ML is classed as differences. Differences requires training and sign off.

If anyone thinks they have found a loophole and want to self teach on a 2 flexwing ML then be my guest.

[DFC]

Although, with the single seat deregulated models, all you need is a pilot's licence - so any need for conversion training there?

(it is possible to get a microlight licence without doing any dual training, as well!)

The single seat de-regulation is de-regulation with respect to certification and airworthiness requirements for the aircraft. The aircraft still needs to be registered and the pilot still needs an appropriate licence, medical etc

Yes it is possible still to obtain an NPPL with a microlight rating on it from scratch without doing any dual training. It is limited to single seat aircraft and I don't know of any instructors who do it........most prefer to teach you on a normal club aircraft and then once you qualify set you free on your single seat.

Of course you will still follow the required sylabus but it will all be supervised solo. Since the instructor is not there with you, it will be very gradual and slow progress and generally (as you would expect) takes more time than dual training.

Regards,

DFC

[michaelthewannabe]

Have a great time flying flexwings, twistedenginestarter!

They're brilliant fun - such fabulous visibility, such an at-one-with-the-air feeling, and climb performance can be quite startling. I started my training on flexwings, stopped, and restarted some time later in normal SEPs to get my PPL(A).

As much fun as they are, I'm kinda frightened by the idea of keeping current on both SEP and flexwings at the same time, because of the control reversals in pitch and nosewheel steering. It took me a long time to get steering the right way round when I started taxying SEPs around - and if I went back to flexwings, I'd be terrified of accidentally pulling back on the bar to round-out on landing...

[twistedenginestarter]

before he exercises the privileges of the rating, appropriate differences training, given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which instruction is being given, must have been completed, recorded in his personal flying logbook, and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the differences training.

So here's a question: do you record this in your JAA log book? (I assume microlight pilots have to keep two log books as microlight hours can't be mixed with real hours)

[DFC]

There is no need to have 2 logbooks.

You may want to separate the microlight flying from the SEP flying so that it is easy to keep track of hours in each.

If you have separate logbooks then they count as a single record and your grand total of flying hours as well as your total pilot in command time and total dual time will include SEP, MEP and Microlight time.

Regards,

DFC

[twistedenginestarter]

So push right and go left, push forward sky gets bigger, then if you keep pushing it gets MUCH smaller!!
Well I guess you must know what you're talking about but I was led to believe pulling the wing up or down affects speed. To climb or descend you use power.

[BristolScout]

I'm looking for a book to help me convert to flexwing microlights. There are several on the market, so can anyone recommend a specific title? I only need the actual flying and theory of flight aspects, not air law, met, etc which seem to pad out a lot of the ones I've seen.:)

[Pegasus912]

Twisted,

That’s how I understand flexwing controls to work as well. Certainly moving the bar forward or back will result in an initial change of pitch but the aircraft will ultimately settle back into the original attitude and will fly at the speed it likes for that new AoA (unless extreme and rapid pitch changes are made). Like you said, power controls the climb/descent rate.

[xrayalpha]

Twisted,

Where was your quote from?

It looked like from the NPPL stuff, which as I posted before applies to UK licences - not international ones (unless you want to use the international one to get a NPPL issued).

DFC

I didn't mean you could fly a SSDR without a licence, I just pointed out that conversion training might not really be practical.

Say you wanted to fly a twin-engined single seat and now deregulated Lazair, like mine. No point in taking some twin-engined time, since it is the only twin-engined microlight - and with a stall speed of about 19 statute mph doing time in a light twin wouldn't be much use!

It also has ruddervators, four wheels! and a few other quirks!

So what would you teach a light aircraft pilot so as he could fly it? You can have a chat, but that is about it!

Back to Twisted and 912.

Pull the bar back on a weighshift and you'll notice the houses getting bigger alright! I can increase sink rate on approach from 600ft to 1200 plus a minute this way, and also increase airspeed.

On a Quantum 912 and earlier draggier flexies, can be a good way to get rid of excess height on approach. Doesn't work for losing excess height on the Quik since the airframe is not so draggy, so you lose the height but then fly along the ground for ever trying to shed the airspeed!

Basically, in flexwings, if at a given power setting you ease the bar forwards, very gently, you get a reduction in airspeed, a possible gain in height (in a Quantum, yes, in a Flash 2 Alpha, no) and the horizon remains exactly where it is. Bit strange for three-axis people!

But if you move the bar back, the nose will lower, airspeed will increase and height will reduce.

Generally, it is summed up as move bar, change in attitude followed by change in airspeed and change in height.

Where can you find how to fly flexies in a book?

Most instructors have notes they give thier students. Paul Dewhurst - world microlight chmpion many times in many classes - has his booklet for sale from Flylight at Sywell. They sell on line at - http://www.flylight.co.uk/shop/books.htm

Very best,

XA

[The Flying Pram]

I've re-read my original post, and I stand by what I said. However perhaps I was too simplistic in my explanation. The control bar responses are directly opposite from those of conventional A/C, both in roll and pitch. If you gently push forward in a normal A/C the speed will increase and it will start to descend. Pull back and it will slow down and climb, keep doing so and it will eventually stall. Exactly the same thing happens in my machine although with so little inertia you don't get away with it for long.

What "twistedenginestarter" probably found confusing is due to a weightshift being composed of 2 separate parts. The wing should fly at what ever speed it is trimmed out at. However the trike can swing forward or back depending on the power setting. So if you increase the power without holding the bar, the trike (and you) will swing forward and the machine will climb at the same speed. If you then push forward a small amount you will effectively have moved the C of G rearwards, and the wings angle of attack will increase. This will slow it down and increase the rate of climb.

The majority of flexwings don't have a "proper" stall, they tend to mush with the bar right out to the front strut. However my Pegasus Flash 2 is a hybrid and has more nose up pitch available. As a result it will exhibit a proper stall break, but releasing the back pressure and applying some power will recover it almost immediately with no more than 50ft loss of height.

I know pilots who happily fly both types - I fly with friends in conventional A/C and have no problem with pitch and roll control inputs, however as I don't have a rudder to think about, and the ground steering is also opposite sense I leave that bit to someone more familiar!

[xrayalpha]

FP,

The control responses have significant diferences between all microlights - three-axis and weighshift - and most light aircraft (ie all Spamcans).

This is, in part, I think due to inertia. The Spamcans are simply much heavier and so have more momentum.

So, having been told in microlights that power=height, I was quite surprised to be told in a Spamcan to raise the nose to the climb attitude and then bring in more power as the airspeed decayed to the best climb speed.

I thought we had both used PAT for the climb!

I think the reason for a number of sportflight aircraft crashes - OK, C42 Ikarus ones (which have the same engine and airframe for light aircraft and microlight versions) - is that people raise the nose of the aircraft and then don't get the power in quick enough, especially on the go-around.

So the aircraft quickly loses energy and then stalls,

Just my thoughts,

XA

[The Flying Pram]

In reality I normally keep hold of the bar pretty much all the time. I was just trying to explain the differences from an "all in one" A/C. I was taught PAT as well. Older machines like mine have no in flight trim system, the hands off speed is set by various adjustments to the rigging and left to its own devices it would climb, cruise and descend at 45mph. Inertia is considerably less than the average light aircraft, and an engine failure in the climb needs quick reactions - so I'm told! I could go from maximum straight and level to a stall and back again in well under a minute....

[twistedenginestarter]

I was quoting from Ozymandias's hyperlink.

[xrayalpha]

Hi Twisted,

Thanks.

Still doesn''t say anywhere that you actually must have the rating - I stick by my premise that your JAR-FCL and old Group A allows you to fly any microlight without training or test.

ps We went through all this for years after JAR-FCL came in, because some light aircraft instructor/examiners got told they could no longer instruct/examine on microlights, and after a few years the CAA backed down for the very reason that there is no international definition of a microlight, so it couldn't be excluded from an international light aircraft licence.

Things are different for the NPPL though, since it is a UK licence and there is a UK definition. There are even provisions in the NPPL for a microlight pilot with flexwing expereince to have to do further training before P1 on a three-axis - which wasn't in the old microlight licence such as the one I have.

Grandfather rights are a minefield, eh!

[twistedenginestarter]

There's some logic in what you say. I think I'll ask the CAA - and then post their response.

[shortstripper]

You certainly used to be able to fly any microlight on the strength of your UK PPL A, but many Grandfather rights seem to be pushed aside these days (including the licence itself shortly :mad:)

I self taught myself to fly a flexwing (a Griffon tripacer)... or rather self taught myself to stop before I killed myself:uhoh: I'd take off, fly the length of our longest field (2000m ish) and land. In the end I could fly around the field at low level, but never got the courage up to climb away, which was daft as it would probably have been the safest option. In the end, a couple of heavy landings made me decide to give up as I couldn't find any flexwing instructors within 50 miles. I sold the microlight for more than I payed for it and went back to flying PFA types. I did enjoy the flexwing and found the control imputs quite natural. The bit I struggled with was the rather course foot throttle, which seemed to only work full on or off.

SS

[xrayalpha]

Twisted wrote:

>>>>There's some logic in what you say. I think I'll ask the CAA - and then post their response

Did you get a response?

XA