Low-timers in bizjet jobs

[CPAM00]

Hello fellow aviators,

Happy New Year to you all!!

I have been reading a few threads in the bizjet section, and someone there mentioned it is quite easy for a low-timer to get a job in a bizjet/corporate jet company. My dream is to fly corporate. I have no desire to fly for an airline, but would absolutely love to fly for a bizjet.

I have applied to a few but I think it would be good if some nice folks out here in PPrune could perhaps tell me which companies are actually looking for co-pilots/first officers and which are considering low-timers. :O

Cheers,
CPAM00 :ok:

[B200Drvr]

Depends what you call low time. I have not come across to many operators who are actively looking for "low timers" and if they are, they will bond you to the right seat for 2 or 3 years. There are better ways to get into corporate. Good luck

[vintagewizard]

does anyone have an opinion/experience good or bad with any of these companies please?! which one would be the best to work for?

[Bearing 123]

Its never easy as a low timer getting into corporate flying or any other kind of flying for that matter.
With low time in my opinion to get that ever elusive first job, you really have to know someone, or your CV arrived with impeccable timing just as they were desperate for an F/O
Good Luck and keep sending the CV's as you never know:ok:

[CPTVOR]

Bearing is correct, and thats exactly what happened to myself, CV at the right place at the right time.

There is one good things to remember about being a low time biz jet pilot though, and thats hours, or the lack of them, during the course of a year. If you work on building about 300 hrs per year and you start at 300TT, its going to take at least 6 years before you are going to get a sniff at the left seat.

It is a geat job and I wouldnt swap it for the world but if you have age on your side it may be a concideration to bite the bullet for a couple of years, get in with a low cost, build some hours and then start looking at the Biz Jets.

Cheers

[BizJetJockey]

Right place, right time!!! That's about the sum of it. Most typical corporate outfits will require a number of hours. One in particular is looking for 700hrs total plus a couple of hundred on type. 700 isn't a lot but it's the time on type that you need and unless you pay for the rating yourself (not too wise without a job guarantee) you aint gonna find it too easy. This brings me to the budget airline option just mentioned. It's a valid suggestion as i can tell you, trying to build hours in corporate is not easy...especially at this time of year. The problem with the budget carriers is this every increasing business of self sponsored type ratings (SSTR). None of them apart from one will pay anything towards your training and if you do pay there is still no guarantee. Just plug away at sending CVs off as you may get lucky and if all else fails...get your instructors rating...i know a fair few instructors now in corporate!

Good Luck:ok:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Last paragraph from CPTVOR does bear considering carefully.

It applies to jet freight just as much also. Big duty times but not much to log.

Plus side - you'll probably get several winters gaining experience.

Downside - you spend a long time unfreezing ATPL and meeting insurance requirements to change seats irrespective of how good you are. It can be quite chilling to write down the number of years needed on a piece of paper to hit those numbers.

Money may not be an imperative now other than living and, perhaps, paying off loans but life moves on. Suddenly finding yourself with rugrats while having to roll with the salary (un)expectations of the next batch of hungry first jobbers isn't fun.

Rob

[badgerpuppy]

how about this.

The problem with the low hours thing as people have ready said is that to get to a point where you are earning well could take some time flying 300 hours per year. In the past I have seen low hours pilots instruct at the same time as working for a corporate operator thus accelerating their hours towards command. Have seen people get command of citations which carry a pretty good salary with 1500 hours and only a couple of hundred hours jet, the rest of it piston instructing.

Just a thought, but it is hard work.

[NZ X man]

Somebody is looking now for a "low timer" SIC on a CJ2.or 3 out of Niagra New York, saw the ad on planejobs. It would be exactly that, a two year contract, must live in Niagra, and the best part of all is they state" no days off", might be right up you alley.

The price you sometimes pay for being in the category of "low timer".

:}

[hawkerjet]

There are several pro's and con's involved in selecting a low time pilot for a sic position in a biz jet. The pro is that usually you can bond that person and he/she will be around for a few years thus creating a little stability. The con's are that the low time pilot will increase the premium on your insurance policy. The latter is what most feel is the number one reason you don't hire too many low timers in biz jets. It does happen, just not at a large rate. Also biz jets usually don't fly as much as airline pilots do so you could be sitting in that right seat longer.
You may not want to hear this but this is still the best advice I can give someone starting out early in their career. Get your PIC time built up. Never mind about jets yet, develop your skills and decision making processes as well as judgement. That initial knowledge will go a long way in your lifetime. When you develop more PIC time in twins then turbo props you'll be a quick hire into any organization whether it be business jets or airlines. Get your PIC time and don't sell yourself short by jumping ahead, you'll appreciate the tough decision you're making now in a few years. Good Luck

[pilotbear]

Everyone is spot on here, right place right time is sadly critical. My current job on the Falcon was exactly that. When the owner I was working for told us the plane was for sale I contacted a guy i had got to know over the previous year because we kept ending up at the same airport and THAT DAY a guy had resigned.
I have done the crappiest of flying jobs, often for little or NO money but was still instructing at CPL/MEIR level so kept the momentum going. Just keep phoning people, keep a big contact list. When you meet people be the sort of person you would want to be stuck with for hrs on end in a metal box.:cool:

I was going to pay for my first Hawker rating but at the last minute the company paid it and bonded me two years. (great, that is two yrs guaranteed work);)
While you have time, spend it learning stuff that will impress people at interview, keep ahead of the game. Learn about AOC operations, learn how to flight plan in a hurry, learn about customer service.:8
There is a really good book called 'Operational Flying' by Phil Croucher.
Despite having the Falcon job I am renewing my hawker rating this year just in case.......
If I was starting again despite wanting to be bizjet I would look to the small turboprop operators like Aer Arran. You learn very good flying skills and can move on later.
good luck

:ok:

[init2winit]

someone there mentioned it is quite easy for a low-timer to get a job in a bizjet/corporate jet company.

I'm sorry CPAM00 but whoever that someone is they are talking absolute jibberish! If it is quite easy then why isn't everyone doing it?

I agree with everything written here and would add that you also need a bit of luck, but remember you make your own luck.

Here's some Good Luck and I hope you find your dream job soon, don't give up.

[LRdriver II]

LoL.... its all about contacts and networking and being in right spot at right time. I have never received a job via purely a resume being sent out cold. There is alot of legwork involved and if you are lucky you can strike gold.

Realistically, low-time golden wonders are a dime a dozen out there so its more a question if your personality fits in with the rest of the usually small team. A captain I started flying Citations with told me that the easy bit was teaching me to fly the damn thing (my first job.. CE500 F/O with 350tt) but more importantly could he stand sitting next to me for several hours.

Nothing is impossible, my old company hired a 400 hour newbie as copilot on a Challenger 604.. first jet/multicrew for the guy aswell ! :}

[CPAM00]

How did that newbie with 400TT get that job? Did he walk in or did he know someone there?

[LRdriver II]

He was recommended by somebody else in the company when they where looking for an F/O... the boss liked him and he got thrown onto a course (but had to pay for the rating himself.. which I think is BS)
Proves my point.
My view its a bit much to go from pissing around in a PA28 to flying multicrew longhaul ops/ NAT ops in a IFR hi-alt environment... everything has to be taught these guys... talking in the radio included. So its a big workload for us the captains especially when the company does not care about the training or quality of crew.
Hence I quit.

[pilotbear]

Nothing like passing on the good fortune you given to you eh? Why is this industry populated by so many selfish primadonnas?:ugh: :yuk:

[Flintstone]

Whoah, easy tiger! I suspect there may be more to LRdriver's story. The placing of very inexperienced crew on relatively complex aircraft without proper training support would be a safety issue and possibly good reason to quit.

Let's see what he has to say before pronouncing judgement, eh?

[Nearly There]

How busy can you be sitting at FL410 on a NAT, surely a good time for a bit of education, I have been under the impression that part of the role of being a Cpt was to nurture and educate an FO sitting next to you.
We all have to start somewhere and who are we meant to learn from? If you except the promotion do you not have to except the responsibility?

Not having a go, just curious???

[LCDRP]

I spent 4 years flying for a company that hired low time F/O's. The only reason they did that was to save money. Terrible pay, no time off and a training contract that would break the back of anyone that tried to leave before 12 months.

The only reason a company would hire a low time pilot is $$$$. They are looking for someone to occupy the right seat and that is about it. Anybody who has flown left seat for a part 61 SIC (Jet) check, knows what I am talking about. We used to call it single pilot ops flying with a low time SIC. Seeing the wide eyes and pale complexion of that first takeoff in a jet says it all for the low time SIC. These guy's took 10-20 hours just to catch up with the speed and figure out what ATC was saying.

I can't talk to anywhere but the US, but I recommend instructing to 600hrs, then fly freight till you get the ATP. At that point you are al least eligible for a type, and have built up a good solid base to move to a jet. The only people I have seen with 400hrs in a 604 were relatives of company owners, or the owners themselves.

There a lot of jobs available in the US right now for the low time pilot. About the best I have seen since the late 90's. Getting on at the regionals is the easiest I have ever seen with times so low, I wonder how they get insurance. If you want a job on a corporate jet, you will get it. Just take your time, don't get disappointed, and keep plugging away.

One note of warning however, don't jump from job to job every time the grass looks greener. Employers look closely at your employment history and like to see that you are stable, and not prone to jump.

[cldrvr]

LCDRP,

Pprune is mainly a UK forum, here the majority of 73 FO's have 200 hrs...

In the EU, there is no pay difference to speak of between a 300hr FO and a 3000hr FO, who has been instructing for years

[LRdriver II]

Whoa there!!
I did not quit for that reason at all... more the company managements blase attitude towards anything safety oriented as the customer-satisfaction and profit overrode all that.
I enjoyed teaching new guys the ropes and have indeed payed back the favour SEVERAL times and brought low-timers into jobs/better equipment, and I will continue to do so in future.. what goes around, comes around.. remember?

My point was that for the poor blokes its a near vertical learning curve and usually in companies you will give them the support and intensive line training with good training captains to lay the foundations of their flying habits. We tried this, but a few occasions the crew-planning didnt work out conviniently with some border line results..ho-hum..
IMHExperience, these guys I dealt with where sharp, willing to learn and wanted to fly like mad... so they had the potential and should develop into good future captains. The one weakness I did see in basically all of them was the lack of IFR radio experience and comfort in the IFR environment. This is easier overcome if somebody starts flying jets in their own backyard (ie local light jet operator) they learn the ropes without having to deal with the added stress of flying NAT stuff, long-range internationally or in a CRM/FMS-heavy jet like the 604.
Before somebody starts by mentioning all the airline pups that start with 200hr in Europe these days, they dont work in the same chaos that bizjet guys do.. alot more structure and progress management by the airlines as well as sorted logistics.

Anyway.. threaddrift...

[CPAM00]

Perhaps I should explain what I mean by low timers in my case..

I have around 800TT and I have some jet time. I have applied to many corporate jet/bizjet companies and am currently applying to air taxi/charter companies. Naturally I am looking for an FO position, however I am not picky as I realise I have low experience, hence I am also looking for any SIC time or right hand seat time or safety pilot time. I do have a few contacts but they are in the airline side of things and they are unable to help me.

I will move down/up to anywhere.

Cheers, :ok:

[Nearly There]

CPAM, On another thread somewhere, Ravenair LPL are looking at the mo, 700hrs TT for air taxi work, Aztec, Seneca and Partenavia.
Some guys from there have moved in the past to AD (Citations) also based at LPL.

[pilotbear]

try Mahattan at Farnborough, they run Premiers

[flufdriver]

I'm with you LRdriver II,

I've had my share of flying with relatively inexperienced colleagues in the right seat.

Its gotten a lot easier with the magenta line in front of you compared to round dials and an SP 77, nevertheless, coming from an Otter on to a Jet is like drinking Water from a Fire hose, especially when "things" get hectic with the Wx going down all around and everybody trying to find a piece of concrete to pitch onto. Often you find yourself driving and guiding the conversation with ATC, along with getting info for deviations when you find out that the holding time to get into your alternate is unacceptable due to insufficient combustibles as a result of having been jerked around sped up and slowed down etc. before you even got near your destination!

All this is ok. if your young colleague has a good attitude and recognizes that he didn't exactly keep up with the profile and is still wondering how we got on the ground, we all have to learn!

The problem arises when said young colleague, after having made a nice smooth landing, looks at you and his look says "when are you going to get the hell out of my seat you old fart"

Thankfully not all are like that, yet, LRdriver II is talking a language I understand.

fluf

[Private jet]

i got my first jet job (SIC/P2 on citation 2) with 360 hrs tt. It can be done. There was a degree of right place right time, and i fitted in with the very small team personality wise which was also fortunate. One extra thing i think went in my favour was the fact that i did a lot with my 360 hrs (had over 40 different airports in the book, had flown in 4 different countries, 7 types, 100+ hrs IFR including a fair chunk of "real" IFR too etc etc) I didn't just float round taking family & friends on look/see flights or build up hours by going the instructor route, flogging round the same circuit day in day out teaching PPL's. Yes a thousand hours will make the operators insurance bill cheaper but thats about it. Everybody finds their first jet a demanding experience, but a friend of mine went instructing and accumulated 1000 hrs doing it, but when he got his jet job he took as long as me to get to grips with it. Pilots do get positions with low hours, otherwise how would anyone ever build any experience? Take care.

[Flintstone]

I didn't just float round taking family & friends on look/see flights or build up hours by going the instructor route, flogging round the same circuit day in day out teaching PPL's.

I know what you mean :rolleyes: Those instructors, eh? Who needs them? I take it you taught yourself to fly?




Yes a thousand hours will make the operators insurance bill cheaper but thats about it.

Oh dear. You truly believe that all an ex-instructor will bring to the table will be an insurance discount? My friend, you truly have a lot to learn. Lift your gaze a bit if you can and look into the future a few years when you and your instructor friend are both captains and the company wants to promote someone to training captain. Who's the smart money going to be on then?




Pilots do get positions with low hours, otherwise how would anyone ever build any experience? Take care.

Some of them even do so with a degree of humility.

[kwachon]

Some very valid points made by all, there is one though that I think overides them all, that is, when you do get into that right seat for the first time, you have been thrust into an enviroment where time is money and the passenger/s are waiting.
There is no such thing as learning time, it is go from day one. The guy in the left seat is basically running the show until he can see that some load sharing can be safely achieved. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the guy in the right seat is doing nothing, but when you are new to IFR in Europe/Africa or the Middle East, there is so much to learn, throw in weather, delays and alternates, it gets tough.
Just last week coming into Jeddah from the East in T/storms, my new F/O accepted a descent clearance 2000 feet below the MSA for that sector hoping this would get us below the turbulence layer, my own knowledge and experience stopped that immediately, but what if I was not on the ball that night, it does not bear thinking about, the good thing is he hopefully will not do that again.
Then there is the first time at an airport with parallel runway operations, staring at the other aircraft on final saying "wow, look at that" does nothing to ingraciate me. It is a hostile learning enviroment at first and needs to be regarded as such, the air taxi/freight dog route is a good system and gets you into the system before you start flying at 450 knots.
Things happen quickly in Bizjets and you need to be quicker. Good luck to all of you trying to get on that first ladder rung, but beware that the corporate culture does not push you beyond your personal limits before you are ready to handle them. :ok:

[Private jet]

Flintstone,

I'm not rubbishing being an instructor per se, its just that this cannot be the route for everyone. If it were then the throughput of pilots to the jets, be it airline or corporate, would be a trickle and instructors would be even more poorly paid and abused than they are now! As others have eloquently put it, tranferring to the higher performance equipment is a whole new ball game. Its demanding, different, with a very steep learning curve, its a brain transplant. Unfortunately its a fact of aviation life that for the first 50 hrs or so the captain, is, to some extent, effectively working alone, esp in corporate ops.
Of course i did not teach myself to fly, in fact my instructor at the time (13 yrs back [where did all that time go?] had 10K hrs instructing, and was a very good instructor and light aircraft pilot for it but put him in any jet and he'd be in most respects the same as anyone else in that position. I posted my message to say it is possible to get and hold down a corporate jet job from low hours, with a bit of luck...
If however, you are saying that being an ex instructor sets you up somehow to be a better pilot through your whole career or more deserving of a jet job ahead of anyone else, well, then my friend i'd have to take up cudgels with you on that point!! Stay safe.