NATS Electronic strips

[throw a dyce]

Has the system that's been installed at the London airports,been incorporated into the new terminal approach room at Swanwick?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Er...... No!

[161R]

Paper strips are still used at Swanwick, but there is an automatic exchange of data between NAS at Swanwick and EFPS units - they update each other.

[throw a dyce]

Thanks.Do you think that EFPS will ever come to TC.

[tired-flyboy]

In a word no....

how could a computer keep up to date with all the heading changes in conditions like today!

paper and pen for me!

in AC the planner uses the EFPS to coordinate in and out aircraft, TC coordinators don't have the time to do that.

[Dan Dare]

EFPS is the name used by nats specifically for the NavCanada Electronic Flight Progress Strip system, which is in use at (most) London Airports and coming to a nats aiport near you - yes even the ice station.

I do not think that AC use EFPS, they have a slightly different electronic data transfer system, however they have had representatives assessing EFPS for suitability...

ALL major ATC units will eventually be using some for of electronic data presentation - even TC!. It is a matter of economics. Management believe that a $multimillion computer system is cheaper than a fleet of ATSAs and do not understand the added value that an experienced ATSA brings - I can think of many ocations where an alert ATSA has saved the day, not something I can say of the current version of EFPS by a long shot. Electronic data transfer will, however, eventually also lend itself very well to the introdiction of Collaborative Decission Making (CDM) (http://www.euro-cdm.org/), which as a concept should make the whole aviation system run very much more smoothly using real-time data for the whole flight including readiness on the stand to get better use of those limited resources that we keep running out of (you know - airspace; runway capacity; parking stands etc).

[Arkady]

"in AC the planner uses the EFPS to coordinate in and out aircraft, TC coordinators don't have the time to do that."

Do you mean that TC co-ordinators don't have time to co-ordinate (ie everything is on Standing agreements) or that they don't have time to co-ordinate electronically?

Electronic co-ordination, for routine traffic, is far faster than the mediator system for the offering sector and gives the accepting sector the choice of prioritising the traffic as he/she accepts it.

[mr.777]

Not unless it was done in the last 4 days...in which case I have a surprise waiting for me at 0700 tomorrow morning.:}

[tired-flyboy]

Yea TC co-ordinators have time to co-ordinate, however, if it is not on a SA then it is individual co-ord done at the time.

There are no means of electronic co-ord in the TMA.

Arkaldy, pop round to the ops room and have a look. Sure one of the GS's will be accommodating.

Or ask the TC guys, you'll be able to spot us in the canteen, we're the ones not sitting with the AC guys!

integration pah!

[Arkady]

I'm still a bit puzzled. What is it that you say TC co-ordinators don't have time to do?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

How would electronic strips cope with SRAs??

[mr.777]

With mine.....not well at all:E

[Gonzo]

Probably the same way I cope with missed approaches....issue the heading to the a/c, and when I've chucked it back to TC, enter the final heading on the strip! :}

[hold at SATAN]

..or forget using strips on GMC when it gets really busy! Thank goodness for ASMGC-S for getting callsign information.

[threemiles]

how could a computer keep up to date with all the heading changes in conditions like today!

Seen Amsterdam Approach?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<or forget using strips on GMC when it gets really busy! >>

We never had the luxury of strips in the Dark Days - the GMC man (note singular) had to write everything down on paper. There were two ATCOs who never wrote anything down - kept it in their heads. Taking over from them was a screaming nightmare.

[Wavey Gravey]

I may be tugging on the wrong end of the proverbial stick here but has the EFPS systems made the simple yet lovable ATSA redundant??

And if it has, as it spreads across the rest of the air traffic world does this mean the end of the ATSA as we know it??

From a simple yet lovable ATSA

[Standard Noise]

EFPS...........coming to a nats airport near you

Near us, maybe. But then Eefrow's not a million miles from Ciderset now, is it?

[throw a dyce]

The reason I ask the question is that we are probably destined for EFPS at the Ice Station in the near future.However Tower I can accept that it would work,but I am yet to be convinced about Radar.The Atsa's are getting worried about job security.If no Nats unit has got EFPS on radar,then what are we dealing with here.:(
I would guess that the strip info would have to be displayed on the radar screen.Is the Aussie TAATS system like this?

[Silk Merchant]

The chaps from NavCanada that came over to help the introduction of EFPS at Heathrow told us they had designed their system primarily to address the co-ordination difficulties that remote airfields in Canada had experienced communicating with the Centres. Of course, NATS has (so far) failed to equip TC with a system that can properly interface with the EFPS equipped airfields. The full potential of EFPS is therefore not realised, and extra tasks have to be undertaken which the "full system" could do. The biggest one is the transfer of non-airways inbounds, outbounds and overflights which have to be co-ordinated by telephone (and an electronic strip created) when the full system could do it for us.

Some of the money saved in ATSA salaries will be needed to replace the touch screens that are now wearing out. After 8 months of bashing the same area (up to 80 times an hour) we have several screens with noticable dead spots and others where the plastic surround is cracked and broken. At least six are ready for replacement.

At least I don't go home covered in felt tip pen marks:)

SM

[GetTheFlick]

I wish I had a clue what you guys were talking about because the subject of electronic strips interests me greatly.

Beware. In America, the FAA installed a system called URET (User Request Evaluation Tool) that was designed for what the name implies (granting user/pilot requests) but was turned into a flight progress strip replacement.

The FAA (as always) did a very poor job with the human factors. Enroute controllers here are all too happy to stop marking and shuffling strips but I believe -- from a safety standpoint -- it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Don Brown
Atlanta Center (Retired)

[ollie_a]

I would guess that the strip info would have to be displayed on the radar screen.Is the Aussie TAATS system like this?

The system looks like this. http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/ML%20AACC%20TAAATS%20c99-00%20console.htm

The far right screen is the aux display, in which you can see two columns of electronic strips. Some strip fields are 'local' i.e. if you enter data in them they can only be seen at that console. Other fields are 'global', i.e. anyone that brings up that strip on their console can see them.

For most purposes the Main and Aux Displays can be treated as one display, with windows able to be moved from one to the other as desired. The cursor also cunningly moves across from one display to the other simply by moving the mouse off the edge of the display.

The radar tags on the main display can have additional text (e.g. headings) entered into them by simply clicking on them and typing. Anyone within the FIR can see the data entered, whether approach or enroute.

[anotherthing]

Ollie,

A quick question as you seem to know. Can the position of the electronic strips be easily moved around?

Also, on the picture you linked, there are two columns of strips. Is there a way that you can have four columns of strips and move any individual strip around that display?

Thanks

[SilentHandover]

I thought it had been decided that Manchester would be the first approach function to utilize EFPS.

[throw a dyce]

You could be right that Manchester is first.I think Ice Station is up there as well because the Bytron FDPS system is on it's last legs.
I worked with quite a few Aussie's and I don't think they were too keen on TAATS.Also that was a nationwide change,where as our EFPS system looks like it couldn't be integrated with the radar screens.In otherwords thrown in on the side,and difficult to use while trying to look at a radar.Working in Class G with the military all over the place,doing SRA's,freecallers and having EFPS to the side and not connected to the primary display.:hmm:Also we have to use 2 screens at different ranges to cover the extra area that has just been lumped on us.Is it me or is it time to get a pension update.:uhoh:

[Data Dad]

Silent Handover

Which unit is going to be first/last changes by the day!

TAD

No the strips will not be on the radar screen. The NATS Approach version is still being finalised. The Ice-stations rep involved in the process is SW.

All - Having spent quite a bit of time "playing" with EFPS, I don't see the Headings "issue" as particularly major - if the configuration is done right then all it would take is 2, possibly max 3, touches with the "dibber(pen)" for each heading.

A common misconception is that for a heading (or level or time etc) you have to "type" it in number by number. You don't. Saying more than this about Commercial project on a public forum is probably wrong so I won't! (especially as most people at my unit know who DD is!)

DD

[Gonzo]

Well, it does depend on how your adaptation is set up.

However, as far as I know, the Heading and Alt pop-up box is the same (i.e. you can't use one for easterlies, and a different one for westerlies etc) across the board.

We've only got room for quick buttons for I think five different altitudes, and four different headings, perhaps less. There's also a quick button for 'Straight Ahead'. If you want anymore than that, then the box will be getting so big as to cover the strips too much. So if you want any headings that are not covered by the quick button you will have to type it in using the keypad pop-up.

[tired-flyboy]

so unless your giving a cardinal point (for example if you only have four options) the instances of RSI amongst ATCO's is going to increase.

I can't see that ever working in a busy radar environment. I for one use plenty more headings than 4..

I'd spend half my shift typing and how would that work when it comes to a handover time. I'm guessing if EFPS was used in a radar enviroment (non AC) then the majority of ac will have to follow SIDS/STARS to reduce the amount of manoeuvring involved.

Just my tuppence worth

[Gonzo]

Well, you as a unit can choose the headings on the quick buttons. Of off the top of my head we've got 220 (usual heading for CPTs off 09R), 240 (I think!), Straight Ahead and maybe one more.

[VoxPopuli]

Having had the pleasure to train on a steam driven system then move to Eurocat X (like AUS TAATS) there was a lot of apprehension about all the worries posted here.

Typing a heading in the free text line takes as much, if not less, time than writing on a strip. It takes about a shift to get used to. And you don't look away to search for the strip. Ditto for Alt/FL inputs. This is done with a drop down menu and a mouse click.

Anotherthing - You can have as many columns as you like. Pending, Starting, Inbound, Arr. sequence, Active, you name it. Active strips are always on your main window. You can have strips and a second radar display (any range) on your second screen. You can move strips around in one box, but you can not move it to another box, this is done by the system.

Tired-flyboy - When it comes to handover time, all aircraft on headings have it displayed on the label. No pointing to each individual on a heading and confirming the heading/Alt. What you see is what you get. The free text goes with the label on handover from one sector to another. You hand the label to Area, it flashes on the screen and when the Area guy accepts it he sees the heading/speed in the free text label.

Some units allow silent co-ord. This is done via the ICM (Inter Console Message). Approach will request a higher level from Area by typing it on his own screen, sending it to the relevant Area sector. The message pops up on the Area screen and Area responds in the same way back to Approach. It takes about ten seconds and you can co-ordinate without having to stop controlling. That is if you're a woman, us men can't multitask:E.

The odd thing I realised after about a year though, is that you tend to use the EFPS less and less. Eventually you stop using it alltogether and work on the label and main screen only. Because the system reduces workload in many ways you have more time to mess around with your labels.

Sorry for the VLP.

[BDiONU]

Swanwick AC will have fully electronic strips once iFACTS is introduced. The HMI has been subject to a lot of work to make it simple, quick and as idiot proff as possible to use.
Swanwick TC will go electronic when EFD (Electronic Flight Data) is introduced sometime in the future, no definite date yet as the project has only just kicked off. R&D work has been ongoing on the Multi Sector Planner (MSP) role for quite some time now but its still a long way off getting to a project stage.
AC and TC will combine onto a single system at some time in the future, possibly around 2016 but could be later, 2018.
Interstingly Swanwick Military are already fully electronic and have been since moving to Swanwick in 2002.

BD

[goldfrog]

Swanwick TC will go electronic when EFD (Electronic Flight Data) is introduced sometime in the future, no definite date yet as the project has only just kicked off.Should be delivered on time as they have now a really good Chief Engineer :)
Interestingly Swanwick Military are already fully electronic and have been since moving to Swanwick in 2002.And of course LATCC Mil have been all electronic since ~1973 when I started in the Marconi Myriad section at West Drayton

[WhatUMean]

EFPS is coming to radar sooner than you might realise. it has to, in order to be fitted into units that are not tower only.

[RadarRambler]

Those that use it, what are the best features about it?

[Gonzo]

Best feature....I no longer come home from work with PaperMate fibre tip pen marks over my hands.

[WhatUMean]

Best feature....I no longer come home from work with PaperMate fibre tip pen marks over my hands.


lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Me Me Me Me]

In a word no....

how could a computer keep up to date with all the heading changes in conditions like today!

paper and pen for me!

in AC the planner uses the EFPS to coordinate in and out aircraft, TC coordinators don't have the time to do that.

A machine that can process billions of decisions per second... or an ATCO with a biro.... Confident?

[RadarRambler]

or felt tip!!!