Jet Airways B777 recruitment? [Archive]

drive73

29th Feb 2012, 15:34

Old bold, I don't think fullforward is a 777 capt. from jet and he is the one stating 15 + days late on the pay, and that managment fines, berates the pilots, so please don't take the previous post as a shot against the 777 guys. Usually one bad apple causes most of the problems. Fullforward has an obvious ax to grind as you can see by his previous posts. 20 days late for the second month:=.. Is not even close to accurate and an obvious lie!
I know for a fact the pay has been delivered on the 15 th for the last two months, so we can say embellished a bit instead of lie if that makes you feel better. Fullforward, I call it like I see it, if it's not true it's a lie. I have no problem letting other readers know facts don't back up the statements made. I worked with many a pilot who did nothing but complain about the contract, but for some reason never left until they were forced to leave. They are the vocal ones, most of the happy guys never report on pprune. There are good points about these contracts. If you read pprune all these contracts are horrible with absolutely no upside, we all know it's about the right fit.
As I stated before problems in India have always been high, even four years ago the wide body guys were as they are today the first to be pushed from the company due to local guys wanting to fly the biggest and most prestigious in the fleet, but where exactly do you feel safe and free from problems as an expat? Your in a foreign country flying, not on a seniority system with western unions of the 70s. If life is so great at home fly there, but we all know how great the unions protected our pensions and how great life is in western aviation. Korean, Chinese, middle east, India, Japan, south America, Africa, all have contracts and as you read this forum every contract stinks and has countless problems, it's just the world expats face and you either find a good match that fits or go home. Jet always pays, very easy (long, disorganized), but easy training, very little managment interference, good hotels for the most part, and extremely nice cabin crews who treat you with so much respect, excellent equipment and maintenance. It has it's problems, but please tell me what gig out there is the holy grail of contracts with no problems.:ok:

captjns

29th Feb 2012, 16:30

Jet is probably the best of the lot in India. Are they perfect? No... but who is. After whining is a part of being an airline pilot. No micro-management of trips either. Pay was pretty much on time in December. About a week late in January and on of course paid on the 15th in February. But not as stated by Fullfoward. Bank transfers from Indian banks to overseas accounts are not in the control of jet Airways either.

Some first time expats have trouble adjusting to different cultures and parts of the world. I look at it as an adventure. What can one say that's bad about the Taj, Marriot or Oberois hotels?

I've never heard of Jet Airways fining anyone. One will sacrifice a bit of pay, understandably so, should they take personal leave beyond their allotted time off, without pay. If anyone personally experienced such an action, please chime in... no "I heard it from a friend who works at 7-11 or Tescos".

Great cabin crew and very enthusiastic F/Os when given the chance to prove themselves. One will definitely not starve at Jet Airways either.

Are there better places to be? Probably. Are there worse places to be? Most definitely.

Just my thoughts.

fullforward

3rd Mar 2012, 15:11

I confirm: a number of pilots received their salaries with more than 15 days delay, for one reason or another. What makes 'driver' a liar. To prove my point I would have to expose third parties, which I obviously won't do here. But this is totally irrelevant.
For the third consecutive month the company is delaying salaries, it can happen. The bad thing is they simply didn't bother to give notice to the pilots until the last minute. Which shows at least a level of disregard for their workforce.
Like captjins well said, it's an "adventure" ( by the way, whish you good luck on your Skymark interview:ok:)
But not everybody is a rich old fart living on a good pension that it doesn't make a difference if salary comes 15, 30 or more days late. Some guys simply need the money on time to pay the bills.

I won't reply to types like 'driver' anymore: he looks to have the typical agenda of despicable management boot lickers. Son is ATR capt? Well maybe he owes some favors: the boy is underqualified/incompetent to have a job in homeland and got a position with Jet, who knows?

The botom line is Jet used to have one of the best contracts in the market. Then they discovered a cheap source: some fat cats, living on good retirement pensions, fed up of the golf course or of being bashed by wife and grand sons. Then they happily swallow anything that would strap them again on a flight deck, to enjoy more few years, back to flying. Those guys spoilt the market. They hardly deserve respect as they are moved by greed or because family don't want them around. Of course there are the ones who badly needs the job.
We've seen a lot of moaning and bitching here about conditions degrading, everywhere. Who are the culprits? The pilots, of course! We've been selling ourselves like cheap w....s
And we are still far away from the botom.:ugh:

drive73

3rd Mar 2012, 22:50

Why would only some pilots get paid later than the 15th? That makes no sense at all? Your just making stuff up fullforward. My son is flying the atr for jet because he makes what senior captains make at legacy carriers in the states, and i flew at jet for 3 years and encouraged him to try it. Pretty simple economics.:ugh:
I think he did call you fat OBP, just exposed his true charactor. The CIA act is old and obviously his "source", is wrong. I doubt your source would get fired for exposing jet is paying the pilots on the 15th again for the third month, my son and three 73 buddies that still work in bombay got emails stating they were to be paid on 15th 3 days ago. It's no secret jet is paying pilots and upper managment late for a few months this is hardly news or secret.
Full you are defenatly full of it and your anger and obvious rants that the expats at jet are bottom feeders of the industries along with personal attacks on my family show your true character.
OBP, it is a different beast now, I remember getting paid before the first some months. Growing pains I guess, they seem to always pay though, which hopefully continues for the gents still flying.

captjns

5th Mar 2012, 07:01

Still a looming question is why does Jet Airways needs B777 captains to stay in BOM for 6 weeks?

No food allowance or daily perdiem when you are at your base hotel.

fullforward

5th Mar 2012, 09:07

As long as there are grannies giving the right arm and an eye to be strapped on a flight deck, to enjoy a couple more years before going back to the golf course, expect 8 weeks on 2 weeks off, no hotel (the allowance is enough for a s.....y apartment 2 hrs from the airport), no perdiem at 'base', no tickets to go home, the list goes...
And yes, there's plenty of time off and stbys in the always vibrant Mumbai!
You gonna miss home and grandsons sooner than you'd expect.:ugh:
The reverse isn't necessarily true.:E

drive73

5th Mar 2012, 12:00

You can get a very nice apartment in bom for a lak and still have money left over only 15 minutes from the airport or 45 if your going at peak times, which on the 777 you rarely will be. Tickets are provided home and business class if the loads work out. They also pay 500 dollars from where you meet the company plane during your commute. Many of the 777 guys just take the lak and stay in the holiday in express when in bom. Seems to work out for most of them.

Fullforward you either need a new source or you are completly full of s$&@, but either way you need to stop providing false information!

fullforward

5th Mar 2012, 12:35

I promised not to reply to despicable types like 'driver' anymore.
However, he confirms the suspicion he's a management boot licker, writing such blatantly false information:

- 1 lack is enough to rent a filthy, s....y, place close to some slum. Maybe 10 years ago it was possible to rent something decent on this money; Holyday Inn Exp is fully booked most of the times; horrible surroundings, nowhere to go, a truly prision. And you have pay for your meals, laundry etc!

- Jet let you go dead head for your block off (of course on it's network only), business class ? Is 90% of times full! So take your chances either on jump seat or at the best on coach, no warranties whatsoever; 500 USD is a ridicule sum for even a domestic ticket.

Why on earth 'driver' insist on hiding the fact that this is a crappy contract? Maybe he's making some money for each poor soul he lures into this scam. Two guys hired back in June are resigning. This tells something.

'Driver': got enough of you, grannie, get a life:ok:

drive73

5th Mar 2012, 13:40

2200 dollars is enough to get you a very nice place in bom and every where is next to a slum. This contract isn't about the pleasant surroundings of bom. Everybody knows its a filthy mess. You can however rent a very nice place for 70 thousand rs.
You are given a d sub load full ticket to wherever jet goes and 500 dollars travel money for block off, which gets you completly across the US. My son gets business class about 60 percent of the time. About 90 percent of the Time from bru to new York. Just don't plan to block off around the weekend.

People come and go in every contract, if it doesn't work for you it doesn't move on , some guys love jet some hate it. It depends on the individual. Fullforward has trouble telling the truth so take what he says with a grain of salt and check with others that have better sources or actually work there.

captjns

8th Mar 2012, 14:11

I can only speak for the 737 fleet.

Terms and conditions are essentially the same for allfleets. Different fleets may have differentwork patterns, but the allowances but the concepts are about the same.

In talking to the A330 expat skippers, they are givencirca $2,000 per month for accommodation allowance. I guess the same terms and conditions willapply to the 777 expats too.

The $2000 can be used for a flat or nightly stays athotels at your assigned base. If theyroute you to a hotel in India that is not your base, then Jet Airways pays forthat hotel and you are accorded the traditional meal allowance which isbreakfast plus 2000 rupees a day. Hotelsprovide breakfast buffets. Lunch anddinner is on your own nickel, euro, pound krona, rupee or whatever your currencymay be. If you choose the hotel route,rostering arranges hotel accommodations. I can only speak of Mumbai and Chennaihotels. Mumbai is usually the Marriottin Lake Powai, or the Holiday Inn Express. Both decent places. Marriottgives you 1 hour of internet while the Holiday Inn provides you with unlimitedusage. Food is OK too.

Pay is usually the first week of the month. But sometimes, as has been read, the middleof the month. Jet has the cash andresources. Wonder why flights are beingcancelled, especially on the 737 fleet? Too many jets, too many routes, and not enough skippers.

There is no standby travel when traveling on one’s blockoff. It’s confirmed Economy. That is what is printed on the E-Ticket. If there is space, then one will be given aseat in business class. I’ve never beenin economy class traveling to or from Chennai. From Mumbai, however, a different story.

The manager of the expat cell is a good chap. He responds to emails quite fast. Like any manager, whining emails areconsidered to be a pain in the butt… but what airline doesn’t

I would recommend Jet. For the most part, management do their best to look after the expats.

Air Viet Nam has been rumored to be a place toavoid. Korean Air…mixed bag as far asreviews are concerned. Qatar… accordingto a few friends of mine there, the jury is still out. They were 777 skippers and put into theAirbus 320 fleet… so go figure.

I’ve met a bunch of young expat skippers on the ATR andBoeing. Great guys! They are taking advantage of the good pay fortheir futures if they choose to return to the US and join a major. They’ll have the extra funds in their bankaccounts to supplement the abysmal pay they can expect with US carriers.

Hope this helps.

fullforward

9th Mar 2012, 13:39

...you're really desperate or hate your family (or vice versa...)

6 weeks on 2 weeks off! Think about that, is it worth? Lot's of looong stbys in the vibrant Mumbai, you gonna miss home after few days, too much loneliness.
And this is for nothing: there's no need to be 6 weeks at company disposal on widebody fleet.
The thing is you'll be a permanent stby for the local pilots: whenever they don't want to take a trip (because of the cricket game, holidays etc) they call and rostering pull an expat.
Most important: there's the new rules of Flight Duty Limit to be enforced late this month. They'll need you as relief pilot on long haul. You'll be mostly babysiting the locals.
But, basicly, the work pattern rotation is killing.

captjns

9th Mar 2012, 14:54

Even if one does not break guaranty... take the monthly pay divided by the days in the month... voila... that's the pay for the day. If it is away from base, then add the per diem to that figure.

All in all not a bad deal. Carriers in China are offering similar contracts too.

So either way its a paycheck and a way to meet new friends.

fullforward

9th Mar 2012, 22:15

Just out of curiosity: what was your Skymark interview outcome? Did you decided to try KAL and EK as well? Or still thinking about Vietnam? Maybe Qatar...

Share with us your next professional outlooks.
Looks like you're not exactly happy with JET!:confused:

Or am I missing something?

quote: "I would recommend Jet. For the most part, management do their best to look after the expats."

:confused::confused::confused:

captjns

10th Mar 2012, 02:08

On the contrary... I stand by my statement about 9W. Minimal overnights, good hotels, great dispatch in MAA. Travel to and from home go off without a hitch. It's unfortunate the Central Government and the DGCA can make life a challange at times. But reps from 9W have always been very helpful for Visa and FATA renewals.

F/O are extremely motivated when given the opportunity to fly too:ok:. Good guys and gals to fly with. Excellent and professional cabin crew too.

I've been an expat for many years and am always looking for new adventures and experiences. I would like to retrun to BBJing round the world. Let me know if you you hear of anything.

drive73

10th Mar 2012, 03:39

Fullforward,

My son lives with his family in India and now sees them more than ever. Just because you had or are having a bad time doesn't mean everybody who takes this contract will. People are different and some adapt and change things around to suit their lives better than others, jet and India are very flexible and you can mold your life more easily than other places, like kal for example where your family is not allowed to live and you only get 11 days off. My son sees his family and I did as well when I worked there nearly everyday. Way better than when I was gone 15 to 18 days in the states.

blaireau

10th Mar 2012, 10:15

I did a 2 year contract at Jet Airways on the B777.

Generally a very enjoyable period during which they fulfilled their contractual obligations and so did I.

I was impressed from the outset when they thrust money in my hand for attending the sim/interview at AMS.

fullforward

11th Mar 2012, 10:13

Forget about you had: now there's a crappy contract, which only the old grannies living on good retirement pension gladly accept. Maybe because they are fed up of the ugly wife or of being bashed by the grandsons.:E
So as long as they sell themselves cheapely the market will continuously being degraded!
BTW, enjoy your retirement.

captjns

11th Mar 2012, 15:02

Fullfoward I’m disappointed in your recent threads.

One needs to understand an individual’s motivation to accept any contract after retiring from their legacy carrier.

There are not many countries offering DEC 777 positions to those over age 55. That said, what are the alternatives??? Where can one over 55 find gainful employment? There are financial issues that remain on the table, due to economic situations at home and within retirement accounts that dictate decisions made in the attempt to maintain status quo. This is not limited to the aviation industry either.

In most cases, the primary considerations to accepting a contract abroad, be it aviation or non-aviation, by no means is a means of escaping a spouse, or the grandchildren. There are deeper considerations that are deliberated by family members before the signature appears on the bottom line on the contract.

Fullforward, I know of three situations where retired pilots do not have financial resources to provide funds for their children with families who are out of work, grandchildren who can’t afford a college education. What’s the alternative for someone who can still pass their First Class Medical???? Become a greeter at K-Mart??? Flip burgers at McDonalds? Some are forced to park the mobile home, put their retirement plans on hold, to supplement their retirement income to ensure their adult children are not evicted from their properties, their grandchildren can be provided with food on the table and clothes on their backs.

That said Fullforward, its not fair to criticize until the full facts are known. Perhaps a little compassion may be warranted for some who refuse to turn their back on their families in need.

cheers

fullforward

12th Mar 2012, 21:47

Of course there are people who needs the job desperately.
But I assure you that the vast majority is moved by despicable GREED or other less noble motivations.
These people don´t deserve any respect.
They are at the top of the ´food chain´ and are directly responsible for the degradation on overal conditions we see on this stage of our career.
They aren´t doing any better than the wannabees agreeing to pay for type ratings and work for less wages than the mentioned Wal Mart or McDonalds waiters.
Shame on all of them, degrading our profession, selling themselves so cheap.
By the way: did you decided between JET, Skymark, Emirates, Qatar, Vietnam...and...?
Good you´re free to choose everywhere in the world, not having to worry or miss anybody else! And vice-versa probably.

drive73

13th Mar 2012, 05:30

Recap: their greedy, but are selling themselves cheaply?? Grasp on reality has slipped away and turned into blithering nonsense, seek professional help.:ugh:

drive73

15th Mar 2012, 05:35

OBP,

I know full is your buddy and your supporting him, but he has lied about the late pay, costs of living in bom, and much more, degraded fellow pilots and has completly flown off the deep end with his rants.
I currently know two 777 capts. Who yes have seen some changes for the worse, but pay is the same, travel pay is the same and the rotation is the same, the one large loss is half of the vacation time. Now with fifteen days you can do only two rotations with 3 weeks off instead of 4. They aren't flying as much as 4 years ago so some spend more time in bom which is not as great as it used to be when they were running the USA routes and wet leasing the birds out to gulf countries, but things never stay the same especially in India.

If you ask any pilot off or on the record if he works too much we will say yes, even if we work 3 days a month. I have never met a pilot who said he was paid too much and worked too little. :}

The pay isn't much different than other contracts out there. Some pay more some less, some are permenant some are tenuas like Jet. It's just a fit thing some guys like the good qualities of Jet others don't. All I ask is tell the truth and let people decide for themselves based off the real facts not ax grinding lies. Currently 5 of the 6 airlines are losing money in India, so I things will keep changing and they probably aren't going to give pay raises and more time off.

captjns

23rd Mar 2012, 13:23

Currently the new regs take effect the 25th of March.

Before going to India as a crewmember, undergoe a thorough medical with your AME at home.

Full blood work, EKG, TMT, Glucose Tolerance, etc. The Indian medical is conducted by the Indian Air Force to tighter standards than perhaps the FAA or EASA group.

You are on the company payroll the day you enter India for training. There is no training pay. You will be paid, even if you are sitting awaiting your FATA, and to take your medical too.

twentyyearstoolate

26th Mar 2012, 04:56

Are these guys getting any applicants with such low salary and poor commuting terms?

fullforward

5th Apr 2012, 12:38

There only reason that justify keeping the 777 and A330 expats in India for such a long time is merely political: the local union, which basicaly have management under their knees, only 'allow' expats to be hired on the long haul fleet to use them as a luxury standbys. And of course there are not enough 737 captains to upgrade to the wide body fleet for now.
Every time a local captain refuses to take a trip due to the cricket game, or nefew marriage, etc an expat siting at the hotel is pulled.
No expat has been following the published roster whatsoever, never. Roster is a joke.
The local captains simply disrupt rostering at will and nothing happens to them.
If a decent rostering system could be established the expats would be able to fly up to 80 hours a month on 19 days ON. This would be way more efficient and cost effective. But nobody cares.
They want the expats sitting at the hotel waiting for the phone ring.
6 weeks away from family is inhumane, cruel, good only for the desperates or the ones that simply don't care about family (and vice versa...)
And this 'commuting' is farcical.

drive73

6th Apr 2012, 06:07

I would like to know what contract is better than jets? Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, all pay about the same or less and don't allow commuting at all. Korean is a commuting contract, but there is a 500 page threads stating how horrible that contract is. Sin isn't hiring, cathey is non commuting. Please tell me where this magical high paying, two week on two week off, home based 777 contract is, I have a bunch of friends looking for it.
Jet is the only company I know who pays guys for 6 months, who go out on medical failure. I know of two guys who will retire from jet having never flown the aircraft.
Seriously, what is the gold standard contract which jet is being compared against? You can't compare your local airline with an expat contract. Apples to apples.

fatbus

6th Apr 2012, 07:40

"Please tell me where this magical high paying, two week on two week off, home based 777 contract is, I have a bunch of friends looking for it."

Does not exist!

Fluke

7th Apr 2012, 23:41

My Turkish contract is 3 weeks on, 1 week off (usually works out 20 days on 10 days off). Many ex Jet contractors here.
Commute home on THY or other airline if not on network. I usually fly about 60-70 hrs month, 3 or 4 trips. Accomadation is excellent but pay is low, about 9.5k $US for B777.
Guys who work a 6 week rotation are able to pick up significant overtime and boost their salary to approx 12.5k, trainers a bit more.

It a good choice I think. Time at home for guys with younger families or more active girlfriends and a chance to make some cash for the guys nearing retirement.

Still if your airline can't honor a roster it is all pie in the sky.:O

captjns

8th Apr 2012, 02:12

FLuke... if I may ask, are the salaries you quoted net of taxes? Does THY pay taxes on your behalf... housing allowance?

Fluke

8th Apr 2012, 12:43

Captjns

THY deducts approx 5-10% for tax, so they are net of taxes. However for us non Europeans who commute home we are prone to double taxation. Housing allowance is a choice of hotel or 2000 TL for rental. Poor buggers on B737/A320 contracts get none of this so not to keen to shout it out.

fullforward

14th Apr 2012, 11:56

Quotes:

"Jet is the only company I know who pays guys for 6 months, who go out on medical failure. I know of two guys who will retire from jet having never flown the aircraft. "

There are many of them. Looks like JA have a geriatric welfare institution arm besides being an airline. Even knowing the prospective captains would have to undergo a thorough medical, the company held them for several months, siting at the hotel, waiting for paperwork, do the training etc and then send them to the medical. Medical should be the first thing!:ugh:
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
"[COLOR="Blue"]There are many companies “agency” desperately scrambling to locate B777 captains for Jet Airways. A few have found this the pool of highly experienced, medically fit B777 captains. On first contact with these agents they will try to channel to other contracts! What’s that all about?
Do you think if they would offer better terms they would get a better candidates?

Do you really have any question about that?

FF

drive73

14th Apr 2012, 12:50

Full, this is the first statement we agree on. They should do the medical first, but this is incredible India and things that make sense really don't apply.

777,
I don't think anybody searches out this as a way to end their career, but it is a testament to the company that they don't leave you high and dry if you fail your medical because you broke your arm 30 years ago and they need six opinions from specialists to evaluate if your able to safely fly with a metal pin in your arm. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I am still waiting for all these leading 777 contracts that are so much better than jets.

fullforward

15th Apr 2012, 08:37

No more good contracts, as long as there are people like you, eager to sell themselves cheap.
Like I said many times before (this is getting tiresome!), JA used to have one of the best contracts around. As soon as they discovered a cheap source on a bunch of grannies crazy to get strapped on a flight deck, willing to give up from family (and vice versa...) or just enjoy "the adventure" in India for some months, we have the current terms.
And now there are some of them strolling through hotel aisles whinning and moaning like regretful girls caught on sex vids- "ohh, 6 weeks is really too much..."...lol:ugh:

drive73

15th Apr 2012, 12:04

And the lucid moment passes, fullforward is back.. I hope you enjoyed your brief moment of reality..:ok:

blaireau

15th Apr 2012, 12:14

I'm considering their offer of $7.5K month as a contract relief/stby Capt. They get me backwards and forwards biz confirmed seat from home, and my only stipulation was the decent hotel as I will be there for 3 weeks at a time. They were only too happy to agree.

I was only prepared to do 3 on/2 off as I have numerous retirement activities that require my attention. Again no problem.

A pleasure to be able to help out!

blaireau

17th Apr 2012, 10:25

Tahoe?

6th floor, Intercon, 1800, don't be late.

My current T's and C's stipulate fair wx only!

fullforward

14th May 2012, 02:14

Welcome to the real world, buddy!

Smell the coffee: many, many things advertised on the agencies are just as solid as your coffee smoke.
Just 'fishing', they are purely building hold pools.

And yes, Santa Claus is just a nice fiction.

PT6A

17th May 2012, 02:44

All recruitment for Jet Airways has been cancelled. Expats being let go.

AI may have adverts out.. but they are not going to be starting any expats at the moment.. DGCA is not allowing it at present.. for how long.. who knows!

captjns

23rd May 2012, 09:10

72 Expats got sacked thus far. The number is comprised of TMUs, Recent hires in training, those on Leave Without Pay, Par Time Contract Emploees 15 or 17 ATR Skippers and the balance are the Baby Boeing Flyers.

I would not be surprised to see more after the monsoon season.

fullforward

23rd May 2012, 23:41

Like always everything can change with the wind, for worse or for better.
BTW, there's still recruitment on 777.

Remember that the vast majority of KF available pilots are up and well on their new jobs in the ME and China. On the other hand there are numerous issues before hiring a DEC, it would be allowed only on contract basis, not full time employment. Why would they consider such a thing when there are permanent positions available?

Then, there are the costly and long training.

Finally, it would be the second time that JET recruits massively then fires after the first sign of crisis. No good reputation if they ever think about hiring expats in the future.:=

PT6A

24th May 2012, 00:07

Jet for a long time has been recruiting DEC's onto perm contracts. Many ex IAF guys some good some not so good.

SWIP dont seem to bat an eyelid, that really is jumping the list... where as an expat is not.

Go figure!

fullforward

24th May 2012, 09:15

DEC's only on contract basis, not on permanent job!
Please check your sources.
SWIP is very keen about seniority list.

PT6A

24th May 2012, 09:59

100% fact they took on ex IAF guys as DEC!

fullforward

24th May 2012, 10:57

How they manage the seniority issues?
From past experience, given the completely diverse background and many other issues, it looks like the airline is shooting their own feet.:ugh:

Furthermore there are many FOs qualified for command upgrade.

On many ways, an expensive solution.

fatbus

24th May 2012, 12:50

Indian politics !

fullforward

31st May 2012, 18:49

Heard from a reliable source: recruitment freeze, all fleets.
Many layoffs on 737 and ATR.:{

cyrilroy21

31st May 2012, 20:24

Air India to turn to expat pilots sacked by Jet Airways - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-to-turn-to-expat-pilots-sacked-by-jet-airways/articleshow/13694617.cms)

captjns

1st Jun 2012, 00:58

Jet Airways has terminated contracts of no less than 72 employees. Depending on their contracts the termination period is either 1 or 3 months. The number is comprised of those deemed temporarily medically unfit... those in initial training... those on unpaid leave... those on part time contracts. Then ATR and B-737 pilots.

The feeling among the remaining is more will be terminated after the monsoon season.

Air India Express has contracted with Rishworth Aviation to provide them with pilots. I don't think pilots will not be employed directly by AI EX... they will be merely leased to AI EX by Rishworth who will be paid a sum of dollars/ruppees/bazookums or whatever currency for each crew member supplied.

Rishworth will in turn pay their employee/pilot. That is why no per diem or crew transport or health benefits nor loss of license insurance... not to mention other perks.

Perhaps someone who has bitten the bait from Rishworth can share some information.

PT6A

4th Jun 2012, 17:50

Might use them on some new routes... Their long term plan is or was to get rid of the 777 and replace with A330 (777 being too large)

They have some further A330 on order, so might be to sub in for them until they arrive.

Not flying the 777 myself, but I was told Jet have some of they heaviest 777's around due to their outfitting of the forward cabin.

B737NG

5th Jun 2012, 08:40

Too big to chew.... that was one impression we´ve got back in 2006/7. The developments showed it was true. Maybe it would be time to refit the cabin into more economical consideration and do not blame the wrong side. Aaahhh I forgot: Incredibble India, they do everything theire own way, just to stay one of the wonders of the world.

Now Pre-paid is a saying. I am certain that the security deposit will be taken seriously if they run to TLS and ask for some A330´s. Would have made sense in 2005 already and was also communicated that way but if a Caucasian say´s something in India he is considert either a liar or jealous about the "Indian" success. No just the other way around: Mistakes in Aviation are paid with blood toll. In the 70´ and 80´s the US and the EU made similar mistakes and paid for it. Now with that expirience in the back brain it is nothing else then a warning when some people see the same happen again somewhere else. To have that sight it takes a while for sure and prevention is not jealousy it is to prevent the pain.

The financial decission makers are not the ones who pay the price, the see the ships sinking earlier and leave with the rats first. Always the ordinary people are the drowning ones who suffer the loss of likelihood. If a company is run by a few morons it is difficult to have them in the same boat when the feet get wet as they are always a few levels higher and stay dry when they jump "The Ship". What happens to the people who stay in the mud? They battle against each other instead of taking the advantage of unite themselves, locals with expats and the "green" with the "grey" and achieve something instead of taking the energy to fight against each other.

Jet does not hire and the SWIP is smiling, shortly, the pain can come a long way and stay longer then a Aspirin may relief.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

sparrowhawk73

10th Jun 2012, 18:07

Fullfwd and PT6A,
Ex IAF DECs are hired on the ATR, perm, but will join at current position on the seniority list, junior to the junior most F/O at the time of joining.
B737 NG
HUH?????????

PT6A

10th Jun 2012, 18:28

They are still hired as DEC Captains, that is the point I was making.

haejangkuk

22nd Jun 2012, 00:59

B737NG...washed out of B777, back to the 737s then given a second chance on the triple, barely made it and then gone turkey then now DEC ti Jet. Wow, nice going if the cap fits.

fullforward

27th Jun 2012, 11:03

...as far as pretty wealthy grannies, already living confortably on substantial pensions, accepted to go back on much worse contracts than before, there's no room for complaints. Just enjoy and shut up.:D

captjns

13th Jul 2012, 06:56

Well boys in my view if you don’t stand up you may as well move on.
The new guys have no respect for you and everyone is out for them self.

Can you elaborate? By the way... all expats may be off the property by March 2013. Directly from the COO's mouth.

captjns

14th Jul 2012, 12:27

:=
You have screwed the poch!

Sorry... not as fast on the taxiway as the next guy... still don't get it:{.

drive73

15th Jul 2012, 04:07

Captjns,
Don't try and figure it out, there are some really weird people on this forum. They live in the black helicopters and conspiracy world reading way too much into things. They think the world revolves around how they think things should be and don't realize people have different reasons for doing things and have different priorities in life. what's good for one person may be bad for another, is something someone who only thinks about themselves won't understand.

wilco77

15th Jul 2012, 05:20

Just heard Jet pilots going to have to take 30% pay cut and 737 Capt Gng wide body will have to fly right seat for 1 year.

captjns

15th Jul 2012, 11:37

Notes from a chap who attended the meeting at MAA on the 10th

- A330 will be 8-9 aircraft. Expats all gone by end July I think he said

- 737 fleet from 53? down to about 47. Expats gone by March 2013, but aiming for Dec 2012

- ATR fleet resonably stable.. 18-19 aircraft (maybe down 2). Remaining expats good until Dec 2013. Still expecting to get some ATR -600 models end of year.

- Undergoing fleet/route usage review. Same stuff that we know. Problems with fare wars. Fuel prices. Break even model based on $110 / barrel.

- Salary amounts to only about 18% of total expense. Fuel 40% of expense.

Don't know how it effect the triple expats. The 737 fleet was at about 60 before down to 53. That said the reduction is 7 thus far with a further reduction to about 43.

captjns

15th Jul 2012, 13:43

I agree drive73:ok:.

Island Dreamer

26th Jul 2012, 19:22

Planning is exactly what the word says it is. Nothing ever goes according to plan. Well, hardly ever :ooh:

Snowcat

27th Jul 2012, 02:49

I know Proctor was advertising but then they removed the ad because they posted by mistake.
It is the same agency that sent you the email?

Snowcat

27th Jul 2012, 13:35

what agency sent you the email?

captjns

28th Jul 2012, 14:44

Did all of the B737 pilots get 90 notices.....

Those who had the 90 clause received 90 days notice. Those, if any, that had 30 day termination clause received 30 day.

So far... those in TRV have not received their termination notices;). All but a few expats in BOM and MAA have been sacked:{.

Snowcat

29th Jul 2012, 09:58

Not official word that the 737 fleet has been revised up.
So far the terminations are still in effect and many guys already leaving before the 90 days notice.

Dragon 83

31st Jul 2012, 15:08

Apparently all expats on 330's were given notice, should be gone by early Oct.

Very mixed news though as hear two 332's will go but two 333's coming late Fall.

I don't know how they will man all these flights with current upgraded locals many of which are newbies off the 73's and never experienced Euro/N.American winters.

I wish them good luck but think they have moved a little quickly in the name of cost savings etc.

Kapitanleutnant

7th Aug 2012, 06:18

So... Who in their right mind is going to even apply for a JetAirways position given their ill-thought out manning policy for expats??? How many times has this happened yet apparently, guys keep coming back for more uncertainty.

Am I missing something or .....?

K

Ghost_Rider737

7th Aug 2012, 14:26

Drive73

"I have never met a pilot who said he was paid too much and worked too little. "

Obviously we have never met :E

Kalistan

8th Aug 2012, 17:28

B777TAC
it is what it is
The winds have shifted in India, and most of the jubilance has been replaced by reality.

Very true! The Indian government and in fact the whole world had been duped by the global shadowy powers which wanted to use India to sabotage China, Iran and Russia. They came up with all sorts of fancy projections of India's rise and super potential to suck in a lot of money and resources with their power and psychological games. India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the Central Asian Muslim republics are all used to the hilt.

The damage has been done, the money and resources either siphoned or wantonly wasted and the whole region sinks into deeper chaos, but this is just collateral damage. The main objective of demonising the rising Oriental dragon, surrounding it, containing it and impeding it has been achieved!

Aviators, businessmen and other professionals are all caught up in this game. Fools in the Indian civil and intelligence service, the military and political sphere are forever led by the nose. Sadly the subcontinent, the central Asian countries, Asean as well as Korea and Japan have all sunk deeper and deeper into their respective roles as patsies.

drive73

9th Aug 2012, 05:42

Ghost rider,

Where do you work? I want a job there.:)

captjns

9th Aug 2012, 08:29

He must work for "Virtual International Airlines"... You know the one where report is never earlier than 0900 and you are done and on the way home no later than 1500.:ok: And to clarify... its the same day.:E

Ghost_Rider737

10th Aug 2012, 12:27

Hahahah seriously guys u gotta come to Africa :ok:

captjns

10th Aug 2012, 13:39

Where:suspect:??... No... wait... I'm afraid to ask:{.

Machfive

12th Aug 2012, 07:21

You know what they say...If it sounds too good to be true... So do let us know the catch as well with the location!

captjns

16th Aug 2012, 13:40

Profits are for the Star Alliance Membership dog and pony show. I don't know how deep they delve into the finances of the carrier before granting membership to the alliance club.

drive73

9th Sep 2012, 10:59

captjns

27th Sep 2012, 11:55

Second batch of 737 expats gone as well as the 330 guys. Only TRV CCU one MAA and a couple of 737 expats remain. A number of ATR guys and new 777 guys remain too. Good luck to all.:ok:

virus90

10th Oct 2012, 08:45

Helloooo Everybody....
Whats the scene on hiring newbies for the 37s or the 330s...:confused:
I have been waiting for a long time now!! would just like some info ....

Geebz

13th Oct 2012, 12:50

It's a company, do you expect them to pat your bottom for all your services? You fly they pay, you go on to the next contract when this one doesn't suit you any more. If you expect anything more from large corporations, especially as a temporary contract worker your dillusional. Quit acting like Jet owes you some sort of entitlement for flying for them.
If you don't like it move on! Quit b3()$$&& about how bad it is at a company you no longer work for and if you still work there leave, it's not good for your health to be this obsessed with the good old days..
Jet is great for some, horrible for others. Everybody is different, let them decide for themselves how to live life's you know nothing about.

drive73 is right. I've done a couple of contracts with Jet. The first time they treated me well. The second time not so much. But, hey, that's just business. I told them I wouldn't put up with it for too much longer and I didn't. I left. I don't think they were all that offended or upset and neither was I when they changed the TCs (the reason for my leaving). I knew the business climate had changed and I knew expat pilots would never band together and take the company on collectively. They broke the T&Cs without negotiation, and I no longer cared about outperforming for them, so they got what they paid for... more or less. It's a two-way street and they knew it as well as I.

The contract world has to be measured for what it is, temporary worker status. The problem is as pilots sometimes we get sick of moving from job to job so guys want to settle in. One should never get too comfortable in any temp worker situation. I've always only done contracts when leaves are offered from my airline. That way I'm still accruing seniority somewhere while I taste another part of the aviation world. But that's just my circumstance. I realize everyone is in a different boat. If you don't like the contract world then find 2 or 3 of your career airlines of choice and get a seniority number there. But be prepared for the long crawl up the seniority chain. Worth it in the end but can take decades to see the fruits of your labor. Otherwise, expect to be expendable, that, by definition, is what contract workers are.

And remember, no local wants to see a contract worker holding up their movement. So don't expect to be on their best-friends list while you're working in their country at their airline. Just the way it is.

I always leave a contract gig early (following proper notice period decorum as per the T&Cs). Never wait for them to show you the door. Try to leave while the going is good, leaving while out on top as it were. It just feels better that way, like you're in control. Which you are if you leave on your terms and not theirs. Plus, it reminds airline managements around the world that this pilot-company thing is a two-way street. Treat a pilot poorly by not doing what you said you were going to do, and find yourself on the losing end of that relationship.

There's a reason why Korean, SkyMark, Air India are desperate for commanders right now. It has nothing to do with growth, rather it has every thing to do with how the pilots who left were treated. There is a reason for all that turnover at these carriers. Why do you think they have to sweeten the pot, or lower the bar to entry, with respect to their latest T&Cs?

pilotbaba

13th Oct 2012, 17:15

"There's a reason why Korean, SkyMark, Air India are desperate for commanders right now. It has nothing to do with growth, rather it has every thing to do with how the pilots who left were treated. There is a reason for all that turnover at these carriers. Why do you think they have to sweeten the pot, or lower the bar to entry, with respect to their latest T&Cs? "

Very well said.......:D

drive73

17th Oct 2012, 23:26

Jet is now trying to recall guys they let go 2 months ago and only 1 has returned, so far.. They pay for their missteps in training costs, airlines never can get it figured out in any country.

fullforward

19th Oct 2012, 10:08

JET has a long story of hiring expats and then fire them on a short time. No good for their reputation as employers. If you look for a minimum of job stability think twice before considering JET.:=

drive73

31st Oct 2012, 07:20

So far 4 accepted the recall and 3 actually showed up, out of 12 is what I was told.. The three is a fairly reliable number, but how many were contacted, only jet expat cell knows..

drive73

1st Nov 2012, 05:16

Old bold, I will find out. Captjns may have the skinny on the changes in contract. I would imagine the bonus was cut, but speculation on my part. Before the cuts they were also trying to push guys from the hotel. If you chose to stay in the hotel they gave the lac and you paid charges over that amount. Or if you chose a 16 and 2 schedule you could stay at the hotels and not pay over the lac. Or just stay in a flat and keep the normal lac and 8 and 2. But again I'll get back to you.
This is just 737 fleet. Atr guys haven't been affected, except tmu and problem child folks.

aviationgeek

1st Nov 2012, 14:10

hello everyone
9W is no good place for foreigners!!!
im not yet a pilot, but i do operations at 9W.
I have a 1year renewable contract with them, 2mounths before the first year was over i kept asking for a clear answer whether my contract will be renewed or not i never got a clear answer, 3mounths after i left i got a call to report back on duty, since i was jobless, i had no choice but to accept.
i know a lot of (foreigners) pilots who are disgusted by the working conditions at 9W, once they have the opportunity to join another airline they will leave!
it's a messy airline, you'll never be safe! if you ever consider joining it please think twice, unless it's your last option, get some hours and leave for a better airline!

happy landing everyone

all the best

captjns

2nd Nov 2012, 01:41

I’m sorry Aviationgeek that your memories during your tenure with Jet Airways will not be happy ones. Those who shared your views made their choice to move on with hopefully hard feelings by either party.

Yes, many pilots had their contracts terminated. But the hand writing was on the wall. Jet Airways performed to their terms and conditions of their contract during the termination period with pay. I know an individual who was terminated during ground school and received pay over a three month period too, which is a section contained within the contract. Not all pilots had the three month termination period provision contained within their contracts.

Only those pilots with FATAs, and Work Visas currentlyvalid, were invited to return to Jet Airways for one year. The termination period has been reduced fromthree to one month. The provision forthe loyalty bonus is part of the contract too.

During the past two plus decades, I’ve been an expat in many countries. I learned early on that business cultures are as diverse as the cultures within the countries I’ve resided and worked in. After my first overseas job, I made it a point to perform as comprehensive research as possible to help me decide whether or not to accept positions of employment based on the conditions both at the prospective airline and country where I would be living.

It’s different working for a foreign company with expat managers in one’s own country. But to some, at the end of the day, a pay check is just that … a paycheck until a better position comes along.

Before coming to Jet, I was employed by a contracting agency in Europe. I was assigned to fly for a low cost carrier, based too far from your back yard. In the beginning of the contract period it was a fairly decent place to work for one and all. During my tenure, I observed terms and conditions deteriorate for those employed directlyto the airline. This particular company continues to use bullying and scare tactics to keep their employees in line. As mentioned before, I was a contractor, not subject to the abuse that the direct employees of this particular company contiune to be subject to.

At the end of the day, Aviationgeek, there is no Utopia to be found in working for any company on this globe these days. Compared to the carrier I flew for in Euroland, I have no major complaints about Jet that would cause me to stomp off in a huff. Jet stood by those who werer TMUed too. I've never any company, both airline and nonairline I've worked for pay employees while medically unfit. But that’s me and I can’t nor will I speakfor anyone else, as this just my opinion.

captjns

23rd Dec 2012, 14:03

No news OBP from Jet about the 777s. Very tight lipped until deals are done and dusted.

romeosierrapapa

16th Jan 2013, 05:45

Guys just looking for help...

Can anybody pm or post the email ID for Jet HR or concerned person for A330 and B777 recruitments for experianced jet pilots...

thanx in advance..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Calvin Hops

2nd Feb 2013, 19:53

I interviewed a while back but a month and half way from home was way too much. Hopefully the terms can be improved so both the airline and the pilots can have a livable contract

The 6/2 arrangement is absolutely ridiculous. Everytime the agencies advertise a 6/2 duty rotation, I have never bothered to have a second look. 19 days on and 11 days off is doable as it can in Korean. My ideal would be 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. My brother is an oil rig engineer and his 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off worked like a charm for the past 20 years with additional 2 months leave on top of that. Airline duty rotations really sucks, that is his opinion!

fullforward

3rd Feb 2013, 05:09

"The 6/2 arrangement is absolutely ridiculous. Everytime the agencies advertise a 6/2 duty rotation, I have never bothered to have a second look. 19 days on and 11 days off is doable as it can in Korean. My ideal would be 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. My brother is an oil rig engineer and his 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off worked like a charm for the past 20 years with additional 2 months leave on top of that. Airline duty rotations really sucks, that is his opinion! "

It works only for the desperates or the incredible greedy grandpas fed up of the fat ugly wifey or the boredom of the golf club.
The latest group formed the majority of the last bunch at Jet.
As mentioned, Air Force medical put down more than 50% of the grannies. Not speaking about the other numerous hurdles.

Machfive

3rd Feb 2013, 10:01

True, it's not the most glorious job in the world, but I would like to know who stands by their employees even when they are grounded. Additionally, the economic situation forced it to cut back on routes and therefore the expats. Since they had a contract, they fulfilled everything to the T. Yes, the way things are done in terms of roster and the delays in getting on line take a little getting used to, but I get my check on time regardless of flying and they honor my contract. What's the complain?! Seems to me people just complain because they can! I had no issues with them and the agency that I went through being local was a great asset to me when I moved.

fullforward

3rd Feb 2013, 19:16

Why you left, M5?
It's livable if you have no family or for a few months, as it seems to be your situation.
I sincerely doubt anybody could be happy 6 weeks out of 8 away from family. From that 2 weeks off you loose at least 3 days trip time, as you commute on YOUR days off.

samjetblaster

3rd Feb 2013, 21:41

I totally agree with you.:ok:

fullforward

4th Feb 2013, 12:18

Not an ofense but you sound either be management or a contractor, making this appear as easy as a walk in the park.
You aren't even touching the main issue which is the cruel rotation.
For the lonely souls who don't have anybody to care about or vice versa that maybe fine!

This rotation is absolutely unnecessary for long haul job. It's easily possible to produce the same on a more human working pattern.

But, as long as there are people who will accept anything to get strapped to a flight deck, this terms won't change. Jet used to have one of the best contracts in the world. They changed it when they realized the available number of greedy grannies fed up of wife or the golf course.

Thanks them, terms and conditions have been eroding relentlessly.
Disgusting:mad:

captjns

4th Feb 2013, 19:38

9W is offering the better contract for those over the tender age of 55. Pay commences upon entering India for training.

TMU pay if one is medically grounded. Who else provides that? Never miss payroll. Name brand hotels with amenities. I realize other carriers in the M/E and the Far East may provide the same benefits... however if one is over 55 no DECs except for QATAR and KAL, as far as I know.

At the end of the day, the menu of life is limited. Either you accept the contract offered by 9W or you don't. The choices are not very complicated.

I think the bottom feeder carrier is Ethiopian along with those pimps who join that lot. $60 of daily per diem until last line check has been completed. What do you think about the miscreants being part of a revenue crew on a 777 at $60 per day?:mad: That's less than minimum wage in many countries.

Machfive

7th Feb 2013, 04:13

I agree the rotation is piss poor and if they are going to need many people, they're going to have to sweeten the deal. But the way people make out the company to sound dodgy isn't right. I left for a better more long term solution and while I was there, i was fully aware of the terms and conditions when I signed on. So where they. I would have reason to complain had they not honored their end of the contract.

captjns

7th Feb 2013, 04:20

I'm sure a couple of pimps who flew revenue flights at Ethiopian without pay will jump ship to Jet. I hope they brag to their new colleagues at Jet how proud they were to pimp themselves out by being part of the problem:mad:

captjns

8th Feb 2013, 15:20

Jet will need to take anyone who applies, their back ground makes no never mind!

Not talking about Jet Airways. Its their peers who should find pimps objectionable amongst their ranks.

777AV8R

13th Feb 2013, 17:27

Well, someone has to come out and say it, so here goes:
First some history...This is NOT horn tooting..I've been an expat pilot a long time.

I am fortunate enough to have been on the 777 since its near inception. Yes, I was very young and while all the older guys near retirement were clamouring to get on this beautiful airplane, at 47 I was working for a ME carrier and became an TRE/TRI on it. I didn't renew my contract and moved over to a large Asian carrier.

The adage of 'grass is always greener' stung me but good. One day a couple of us guys decided that this Jet Airways gig would be a good one, so we applied and got an interview.

The first actions should have really opened my eyes, but it didn't. The thought of helping out a B777 'new-comer airline' clouded my thinking. Did I have something to give? You bet I did and still do..I have over 7500 logged on this machine. I am still current and I am also fully 787 qualified.

I was hired 'over the phone'. Then there was silence. Then numerous phone calls, then "why don't you come over and have an interview'. Well, it took forever and a day to get a visa to start with. The security clearance...what a laugh, so after a few weeks, and a 'window' of a few days to make it into the secret society of India, I was off to the beautiful and romantic city of Mumbai. The morning came early and off I went to Jet Airways 'ivory tower'. Now what a mixed up, over-crowded, disorganized place this turned out to be. An elevator that holds a maximum of 2 people...me and the elevator operator...and away we go!

There was an interview and we were off to do a simulator assessment. Joke time. The TRE was a useless inexperienced egotistical sh*t from a part of the ex-Commonwealth located near Antarctica. He should have stayed there. After a total useless series of maneuvers that showed me nothing more than he knew where to find selections to provide multiple failures that proved nothing, I landed a dismantled airplane. Pass.

The fun then began. Sign the contract.

SHELL GAME..........
Well, I had an acquaintance at IBM, a lawyer whom I met several months earlier. This person was in charge of contracts between Big Blue and company clients in the Sub-Continent. I was WARNED....DON'T DO IT!

Well, this is aviation and what did a lawyer know about it anyways?

No sooner had the ink dried, changes started to take place. The TRE position that I was offered, turned into a regular line pilot position. In retrospect that was good. I couldn't have withstood the BS. I had a European base of Brussels. Good. I didn't have to live in Mumbai.

Then, there were the hoops of the DGCA, even more fun. I can't vouch for what its like now, but it was a 'gong-show'.....Prep for an interview with the 'biggies' in their office in Delhi...scurrying here...scurrying there..finally coming out of it with agreement that I could be licensed there based on my current licenses (I was current in several countries).

So then it was all of the conversion course fun...SEP, Security, Planning and Performance, and my favorite...Monsoon Met where some guy came in and tried to sell us his book that he printed back in 1886 or something. Off to get a nice uniform, then sent home.

I should have had some thoughts going through my head here...we were spirited through the Mumbai scenes and had to find a place to get our residence permits...

I eventually ended up working out of SFO as the airline began its BOM-PVG-SFO operation. I had spent 8 years working the NOPAC and SOPAC routes with the 777 and was very familiar.

Interestingly, about 4 months into the contract, my pay didn't arrive. In fact, it didn't arrive for for a few days. It was 9 days late! None of us had our pay. We questioned it and were told...'Oh, we're sorry!' No other explanations. So I continued to truck back and forth between PVG and SFO for a few months...then.....the operation quit and we all ended up in Mumbai. BTW...the pay was arriving up to 2 weeks late and continued that way for the rest of the contract! OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

We stayed at a reasonable hotel in the beginning but then, over night, we had to move to a horrid place. The food was lousy and we would find ourself in a Tuk-Tuk, going to other hotels to find something to eat. We complained, but no one listened.

Then, tickets began to arrive late. In fact, I was scheduled to be in London to deadhead to Mumbai. I was asked if I could pay my way and I'd get reimbursed. NOPE! NOT ME...If you want me to fly the airplane from LHR, you'd better get me there. They did.

We then got notice that the airline was going to wet least to nearly every carrier in the world....Lets see..6 months in Turkey, 4 months in Bahrain. To their credit, Turkish offered most of us a good contract. Some excellent pilots went over there, but I wasn't interested in a 6 and 2. BTW..the standard contract at Jet always was 6 and 2. If you're going to do contract work, get used to it.

I hung in there and after 42 years of continuous service working as an airline pilot...it took Jet Airways.....TO LAY ME OFF! I couldn't stop laughing for a week. The rest is history.

If you are willing to work on a contract that means nothing, this job is YOURS!

Its been said that there are some who are paying their way over to go to work. Well, you retired guys who are 'double dipping', using your company passes to fly to work (and you know who you are), buy hotel rooms with your old airline ID at a better rate, only serve to undercut those legitimate guys who are actually trying to eek out a living. Its quite amusing because many of those who are doing this were some of the biggest unionists out there. How greed changes things.

'Nuf said.

captjns

14th Feb 2013, 12:37

First time expat gigs are needless to say a culture shock. Especially workig for a legacy carrier for 30 plus years. But we all know what happened to pay, terms and conditions, and retirement benefits at DAL, USAirways, United, NW to name a few.

In 23 years, I've never had any contracting agency nor carrier follow the tems and conditions to the letter. Most, performed to the best of their ability in good faith. If pay was late, yeah, yeah I questioned it. Yeah they said they were sorry about the pay. I am an educated consumer. When I see hand writing on wall, or expirence such abhorant behavior by the airline, or contracting agency, its time to move on.

Perhaps pay issues were a bit different with Jet before 2010. Yeah I know pay was supposed to be in the bank on or about the 1st of each month. Well its not. Its in the bank on or about the middle of the month.

While the length of the contract may be stated in writing, however economic conditions change, employment requirements, and work visa issues change, thus requiring, resulting in premature termination, or foreclosure of the contract.

Contrary to popular belief, Jet honored their side of their contract when expats were terminated last year. Most pilots remained on the property for the term of the termination section (be it 1 or 3 months) with uninterrupted pay. Terminated pilots were given recommendation letters and adequate time to secure employment elsewhere.

How many carriers in the US that do this, be they a union or nonunion shop?

It's a shame that it's no longer a perfect world for an expat.

777AV8R

16th Feb 2013, 11:46

Well, you've totally missed the message. Jet would love to take anybody. They will promise the 'world'. In fact, they'd probably offer a base in Timbuktu, if you wanted it.

The fact is, that it appears that you've never been employed in India, experienced the bureaucracy and the rest of it.

There is a travel advert. that is played on some of the world's large news networks....and it shows all the 'hot spots'......

It ends with: 'INCREDIBLE, India'! Read the first word carefully and take it out of its context and you will get the drift.

All of you wannabes...GO FOR IT...You've been forewarned. And..I could write a book on Employment Agencies....THATS another story.

....I think I'll go and watch tennis....Its a nice day!

captjns

16th Feb 2013, 12:23

These expat captains could also be move to any base at anytime to fly rotations and routes that may not be preferred by the local work force.

The code has been borken:D. For the most part that's what expat flying is all about. Expats do not displace nor inconvenience the nationals at any. Expats provide a convenience through which airline expansion minimizes disruption the local's time away from their families.

I can only speak for the 737 fleet. Once the last route check has been completed, expats are fair game to be transferred to any base as required by the company. It's in the contract, and its the luck of the draw.

I can't speak for the 777 crowd, but I know it applied to the A330 group when they were around. Many of the expats who I met were based in Brussels, with a few in Mumbai and Delhi. While they had to submit to the Indian medical they still did not have AEPs. They needed a copy of the GD to gain access to the airport terminals in India.

Some expats were able to wrangle their rosters so they would begin and end their trips near their home airports in North America. As I recall, the last group hired were based in Mumbai.

However, I did hear that initial basing for the 777 will be in Mubai. They too may be transferred and or rotated in and out of operating bases where the leased 777s will be based.

777AV8R

17th Feb 2013, 01:19

Hmm...familiar...Mumbai...Delhi..NO..Mumbai...no...Delhi...

Has anybody thought of what routes they are actually going to put these aircraft on? The market has soured. These 777s don't fit the normal configuration. Goyal bought some beautiful aircraft but don't meet any other airlines configuration profiles. These aircraft have an unreal BOW..granite counter-tops. They are expensive machines to operate.

I'm amused.....

777AV8R

17th Feb 2013, 14:50

I have many questions about this outfit, is there anyone on this forum that is a past, or present B777 captain for them?

....worked there 2 years on the 777......

captjns

19th Feb 2013, 12:29

Corsair_F4U asks Why is there a big gap in the pilots. Love or hate?

Culture shock for first time expats with many years of service with a legacy carrier of their own country. The old saying goes "we're no longer in Kansas Toto.".

CAT1

22nd Feb 2013, 10:37

I'm quite interested in working for Jet Airways. I have worked in India before, so know what's involved as far as the country is concerned.

I'm not particularly interested in a commuting roster, if I had to be based in Mumbai. I'd prefer to live there and not pay tax in the UK.

A base in Europe would be better though, even if I did get stung for tax. In that case I'd like a roster that allows me to get home for a couple of days between trips, though not sure yet if I'd live in the UK or somewhere else in Europe (I'm a UK citizen). I'm not keen on 20 days on and ten off; ideally I'd like a minimum 10 days off per month, perhaps in two blocks of five, accommodation allowance or, even better, good accommodation provided if based in Mumbai, plus unlimited ID 90's, and health insurance for myself and family, plus an end of contract bonus. .

Maybe wishful thinking, but I'd jump at it if the conditions were right.

CAT1

22nd Feb 2013, 22:52

Hotbreak, what makes you think I'm not current on type? Or that I won't pass a medical or the assessment? They're hardly going to advertise for pilots and then fail everyone on their assessment, are they? A pretty daft post if you ask me.

CDRW

24th Feb 2013, 00:44

Can't quite get why hotbreak and others are getting so excited about doing a "manual raw data ILS 35knts, ninety degrees cross on the right seat auto trust off". Having been on the 777 for an awful long time the excitement in saying the above - is just that: in saying it. Most modern airlines have that rather nice bit of information called TRACK and when on the localiser and TRACKING the inbound course then who gives a rats ass what the wind is! Now if the so called "checker " in the back wants to fool around with the wind from right xwind to left to right then that can be a challenge - but that is just being foolish.

Thing is most airlines want you to use automation to its fullest extent. Come interview time one then has to show how good you are with no automation!!
Something wrong here I think.

captjns

24th Feb 2013, 02:03

Thing is most airlines want you to use automation to its fullest extent. Come interview time one then has to show how good you are with no automation!!

Something wrong here I think.

Yeah , i know button pushing magenta line, map displays, and what not... No brainer stuff. At the end of the day nothing wrong. They want to see if you can handle the jet when the chips are down. All assessments for jobs over my 35+ career has been raw data. Some with winds and turbulence thrown in for good measure. Good fun:ok:. I conduct line training with a good deal of hands on raw data flying... even for approaches. Good for proficiency and confidence building.

fatbus

24th Feb 2013, 02:29

Most of the local FO's are children of the magenta line( Zero real flying skills) experienced first hand. Sorry but true.

B777TAC

24th Feb 2013, 08:53

HotBrakes:{

Wholly cow, if that isn’t the biggest load of bull manure that I have heard in a while.
If you are Typed rated and current on the B777 with over 700 hours PIC, and a professional in good health you will do just fine.:ok:
Don’t worry the biggest problem is the rotation 6 weeks and only 2 weeks off. Most of the guys are pretty good Joes!
If you have any questions drop me a line.

fullforward

27th Feb 2013, 09:52

Don't do it

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you:

- hate your family or the life you have back home;
- or, reversely, are hated by them;
- or are desperately broken,

Geebz

2nd Mar 2013, 03:32

India can be a tough place to work, especially Mumbai, but there are plenty of worse places to consider doing a contract and you will overall appreciate your experience there even if to say, "been there, done that."

Having flown for Jet Airways on more than one contract, I would suggest you go into the opportunity with an open mind. Some things they do better than Western carriers and will sort of blow your mind. While other things they do will make you laugh. No airline is perfect and the grass is always greener I suppose.

You can expect your contract to get violated here and there but it will be mostly honored. That is the same in the Western world so no nothing new there. When Jet violated my T&Cs I gave it back to them in work ethic, or lack thereof. So what goes around comes around... and they knew it. A lot of times directives to cut this or that from the pilot T&Cs come from way above. And those upper level execs are pretty much clueless as to what results come from screwing over skilled equipment operators. The mid-level managers are powerless in the process so they don't seem all that bothered when a pilot loses motivation to help out. Just the way it goes in business.

The government there has done a stellar job of helping Indians to be proud of their country vs 10-15 years ago. Often that comes across as offensive or racist to the foreign expat worker. But that is government's job, to promote nationalism, so I can find little fault there in both their government or their citizens. It's harder for us Westernes to understand that because so many millions of foreigners, especially South Asians, are welcomed in our country with open arms while in India it is the complete opposite. The problem lies within when those who work in the gov't infrastructure, or corporate institutions, refuse to accept criticism or suggestions because they believe in "the Indian way". I think that's a lot of the reason of why aviation there has sort of stalled in it's growth trajectory, as well as the overall Indian economy (see: India headed for economic doom, prominent US thinktank says - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/India-headed-for-economic-doom-prominent-US-think-tank-says/articleshow/18772325.cms?)). Sometimes they seem to want to reinvent the wheel when there are far simpler ways to address certain problems. But it's their country, so let them do with it what they want.

If you accept employment there, just understand that you are a very temporary contract worker. They don't have anything against you personally, unless your an a$$hole, but they just want you out sooner than later because they want to "Indian-ize" everything they can.

The irony is, as much as the younger pilots complain about foreign pilots, they often loathe their Indian senior commanders, many of which are Machiavellian or autocratic in their cockpit management style. So while they complain to their friends about "foreign pilots delaying their command training", they equally complain about the Indian commanders who won't give them any flying or who bite their hand every time they assert themselves in a CRM situation.

fullforward

6th Mar 2013, 14:18

"Oh I’m sure they will get a few captains with low self esteem, under qualified, broke, or just plain dirt stupid, but the rest need to stand your ground."

The vast majority that joined after the contract went to the current stage were types described above, with the plain stupid ones being the biggest group.

The advertised need of 75 or 100 pilots is obviously unrealistic as this is only a way the management message the locals to behave well otherwise no more promotions from the 737...

On the other hand company policy has been like this: they hired a lot of expats for 777 to furlough them all at he early onset of the crisis, in 2008/9. It was the same on A330 and more recently, following a recruitment boom on 737 they fired the pilots after few months on the property...policy changes with wind direction. Some resigned from Ryanair for this adventure and find themselves jobless. Hardly any consistent business plan.

San Pedro

6th Mar 2013, 17:55

captjns

6th Mar 2013, 22:58

Read somewhere that there is a Malaysian ex MAS/Jetairways bigwig who can help fast track pilots into Jet Airways. Is he still actively in the business? Any contacts? What are the chances of someone with about 2600 PIC hours on the B737 getting in as DEC? Thank you.

Adequate staffing for FOs to upgrade on the 737. That said no exPat hiring into the 737 for the foreseeable future.

fullforward

9th Mar 2013, 02:50

Which agencies are offering those 3 options?...:confused:

Watchdog

10th Mar 2013, 00:09

Oldbold...Option C would get my attention, but that's not on offer right now?

fullforward

10th Mar 2013, 11:05

These "options" are just wishfull thinking.
The only option available is the 6 x 2, 11K.
Of course, if there's no takers they will have to come up with something better.

cyrilroy21

12th Mar 2013, 16:03

Jet to dry lease 3 Boeing 777 to Turkish for 1 year and take in 2 Boeing 777 for themselves

Jet Airways to extend code-share with Etihad - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/jet-airways-to-extend-code-share-with-etihad/articleshow/18930390.cms)

Raj Merlion

13th Mar 2013, 22:25

San Pedro, I trust you are referring to a certain titled ex MAS low life by the name of latuk g stringh. Read this thread which had, unfortunately, been closed:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/281344-jet-airways-recruitment-malasia.html?highlight=Jet+Airways+recruitment+Malasia

SQnovice

20th Mar 2013, 13:15

Hi all

This question may of been asked or answered on here before but I can't find it. Does anyone know what the hotel situation is for this? I've heard from a few people that they are currently using the premier inn at LHR as they didn't pay their previous hotel bill, but in HKG they are using the Conrad? Is this correct? What are the hotels like in BOM/DEL for the contracted pilots?

Many thanks if anyonme could give me an update, thanks

SQnovice

20th Mar 2013, 17:30

Thanks OBP

What are the layover like in LHR/HKG I'm guessing anything from 24-36hrs?

Thought they were in the Conrad as seen an airline there with similar uniforms.

Are you based on the 777?

sleeve of wizard

20th Mar 2013, 18:55

Following services to be operated by Jet Airways Boeing 777-300ER aircraft:
Istanbul Ataturk – London Heathrow 03JUN13 – 30JUN13 TK1985/1986 Daily
Istanbul Ataturk – Sao Paulo – Buenos Aires eff 01JUL13 Daily
Istanbul Ataturk – Seoul Incheon eff 01JUL13 Daily (Replacing A340-300)

Comfort Class service is not available on Jet Airways aircraft while First Class cabin is sold as Business Class.

zlin77

22nd Mar 2013, 03:03

I previously worked at Jet Airways on a 6 week on 2 week off contract, survived that..no big deal.!

fullforward

22nd Mar 2013, 21:17

Corsair you're spot on!
Nobody in their right mind set can imagine any kind of family quality life on this kind of rotation.
Too much to give up for too little in return.
Only greed or desperation could justify such a move.

B777TAC

25th Mar 2013, 01:44

zlin77 Depends if you have a family...!!

“Dam son” that’s really sad.

Now if Jet Airways can find 99 more sad B777 Captains without families, homes, and a life. Or say 50 that are willing to risk their family.
Is it true that the old terms at Jet Airways for the Expat B777 Captains and First Officers where a rotation of 11 days ON and 7 days off roster pattern? You were given 30days paid leave in 12 months.
Didn’t you also have your accommodation in your base full time even when you where in away on time off.
This allows you to setup some kind of life when at work.
“Was it not your request to select a longer rotations to spend longer times away from India on your off time?”:=

zlin77

25th Mar 2013, 04:28

Initially in 2007 Jet offered 8 days on 7 off....this was a little unworkable and was changed a few times, I think it ended up 12/9........New Zealanders and myself did 6 weeks/2 weeks, as the commute was too long for the shorter rotations...remember a lot of those guys were based in London/Brussels/New York...and were able to be home in a few hours...with the new wet lease Istanbul based there will certainly be an opportunity for European Pilots to sneak home between trips....

zlin77

27th Mar 2013, 10:52

I've been in the expat contract world for nearly 13 years....it's not perfect, but if you want a flying job it's what you do....for anyone coming from a major carrier in The Western World, IT IS VERY DIFFERENT.....remember we are all prostitutes here in "The Real World"...forget about having bid rights for trips,having a choice in your days off, accept the long time away from home, forget EVERYTHING from your previous airline, just shut-up, dress neatly, be early and be very, very polite..if you can do that you will most likely fit in to most Airlines that will employ you..if you don't like that, stay well away...:ooh:

fullforward

28th Mar 2013, 09:02

Fortunately for Jet there are many cheaply available retirees, living on fat pensions, eager to give anything to get strapped on a flight deck again.
They don't care if they need to pay for their type rating, if it's 6 x 2, 20 x 1, or about family. They just want to make some extra cash. That's all.
At least 90% of the more recently contracted drivers are from this group.

zlin77

28th Mar 2013, 10:45

Including a Captain, recently retired from THY due to age issues (63), now employed by Jet to fly for THY:)

gb777

29th Mar 2013, 05:08

Serious question:

- When employed under this contract, could you actually rent a place in Istanbul? Under what status? Employment contract? Working permit?
- Could your dependents legally live with you ?

(Not talking about money for once, but legal status)

zlin77

29th Mar 2013, 05:53

gb777....as you will be working for Jet Airways you would not hold A Turkish Work Permit, you would normally enter and leave as crew on the G.D...however, your family can come and visit as required, a multiple entry 90 day tourist visa is I think USD $60..I believe there are limits as to how long you can stay in 12 months, an apartment is a possibility but they can be expensive.

gb777

30th Mar 2013, 09:17

Thanks zlin77

captjns

31st Mar 2013, 18:43

Some of us need to learn the lessons in a hard way, let the desperates pay for their ppc. Jump a few hurdles and get stuck here. 'DGCA delaying med test parity policy'demand med tests for foreign crew - Times Of India

Article is from Feb, 2011.

At this time expats have visited the Butchers of Bangalore 3 or 4 times. Before going off to IAM BLR, one visits the local hospital... Thorough examination with EKG, Stress Test, Blood Test, Sonogram! X-ray for 7500 Rupees, about $138 USD. Where in the US can one get all that testing on the cheap? Company MD at your base signs off the report and off to Bangalore for the experience of a life time. Some have experienced horrors beyond the imagination the sane. Some have sailed straight through. Some Were TMUed and got themselves into shape at home, came back and issued their certificates. As long as the numbers from the bolls tests are within specific ranges, no issues. Any past surgeries or scars??? can range from a minor to a major issue.

At the end of the day, it beats the Chinese CAAC Medical hands down. Starting this summer, expats will be able to renew their medicals with private physicians.

captjns

1st Apr 2013, 03:15

Again, very old and melodramatic news. There are many posts on PPRUNe concerning this miscreant. There are good FAA AMEs throughout India. Check with expat pilots with Spice, Indo, Air India Express, and Jet.

:eek:Guess what..... There are crappy AMEs all over the world, yes, including the US:{

I've done expat contracts in many countries. It is common to submit to local Aero Medicals too. Some used the same procedures in India too.

It is an unpleasant arduous experience for first time expats. Almost a babe in the woods feeling. Just another hurdle.

cyrilroy21

1st Apr 2013, 14:49

@marvelman

captjns is spot on

This particular doctor was also a DGCA Class 2 examiner . He has been barred for life from operating as Medical examiner for the DGCA and from the news article above for the FAA as well

This topic was also discussed extensively on pprune

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/440598-extortionist-doctor-new-delhi.html

captjns

1st Apr 2013, 18:14

Marvelman, perhaps many of my colleagues, also expats, would disagree with your assertion. All you've contributed are two media items two years after the fact relating to the Indian Medical. Enlighten me Marvelman. Kindly elaborate on subject matters to which I am in the dark about... without outdated news articles please.

We are willing to read about your experiences with the Indian Commercial Airline Sector. Do share with this forum your first hand experience from the assessment process, DGCA interview, Air Law exam, training and checking process, per-medical, and actual visit to IAM-BLR.

Share with us your actual experiences as an expat relating to the selection, training, and medical process.

At the end of the day, expats can share, compare, and laugh about one another's experience. But one expat gig an expat does not make.

captjns

3rd Apr 2013, 05:44

Thanks OBP. I am setting the record straight about the Indian Medical Process only, and not about the B777 program.

As I am not familiar with the T & Cs, It would be improper for me to comment. I have learned to take the word of the recruiter at face value.

Many recruiters are nothing more than modern day "Shanghai Artists"... have the applicant sign on with carrier from hell, collect their commission, and off into oblivion no where to be found to resolve any issues. I was lucky to learn this fact of expatting some 20 years ago after my second overseas operation. Atbthe end of the day It's up to the candidate to perform their due diligence when researching any potential contracts abroad. Again, the recruiter's words need to be taken at face value.

Their was no intent on my behalf on offending others on this particular thread, as trolling or flaming serves no useful purpose.

80-87

6th Apr 2013, 17:13

Good gosh, this discussion brings back something close to Critical Incident Stress Syndrome. Having been through their 777 process back in 2010, wet leased out..then laid off and lied to, its all the same.

Anyone who'd be willing to put themselves through this needs to go and see the Indo-Doc for a head reading...seriously...Once the signature is on the page, the conditions will change. Believe it.

fullforward

7th Apr 2013, 22:37

Only political pressure or the most stubborn stupidity could justify this punishing rotation.
There's no logic reason for that whatsoever.
Many airlines employing expats on long haul (THY and KAL come to mind) for quite some time are very happy re productivity etc on rotation 20 days on 10 days off.
A funny explanation is that the local pilots would be 'jealous' about the expats having too much 'priviledges', so they press the management to enforce this punishing rotation.
Tipically the expats spend much more time sitting at the hotel than involved on duty rest/flight activities. Complete nonsense.:ugh:

Fulcrum777

9th Apr 2013, 07:17

The DGCA deadlines in India live up to their name. they die:rolleyes:

India holds back plans to eject foreign pilots | Business Standard (http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/govt-to-open-doors-for-expat-pilots-extend-phasing-out-deadline-113040800252_1.html)

"The move will benefit Jet Airways (India) Ltd, which plans to hire about 70 foreign pilots for its Boeing 777s."

"Jet plans to recruit about 70 foreign pilots for its three Boeing 777-300ERs. The airline plans to wet-lease them to Turkish Airlines for a year and does not have enough commanders on its rolls to operate these. The aircraft are currently on lease to Thai Airways and will return this year."

"This is not the first time the government is extending its deadline. It had set July 2010 as a deadline to phase out expat pilots, but then revised it to July 2011 and then to 2013, giving a reprieve to domestic airlines."

Aeronotix

9th Apr 2013, 12:32

The Jet Bania strikes again. Classic example of yoyoing by DGCA. Longer wait for Capt upgrades on 777 for Indian pilots at Jet. :suspect:

Sky Dancer

9th Apr 2013, 19:35

The reasons for this massive intake of pilots is manifold.Many of the Jet 777s will now be wetleased to Etihad and also possibly 330s too.This is part of the deal that is being worked out between the two carriers.In my earlier post I had criticised Jet's knee jerk hiring and firing policies.The reason for this is because if the deal goes sour then all you guys hired , stand to be fired.And the chances of the deal going sour , according to yours truly , are pretty bright.:ok:

rdr

10th Apr 2013, 02:31

agreed Sky. also, one of the conditions for the THY wet lease, is that like the last time, they simply do not want Indian pilots. (for whatever reason)

zlin77

10th Apr 2013, 16:46

Just to clarify...THY require a JAR/EASA Licence..whereas Jet will give you an Indian Validation on most ICAO Licences...for someone who has retired and just wants 12 months extra employment ,it gives you a chance to escape the dragon at home and get paid to do it...And remember THY pay in Turkish Lire not USD,four years ago USD$1=1.5 YTL..now it's 1.8 YTL, so about a 20% pay drop in USD terms...

zlin77

11th Apr 2013, 22:11

No Dragon to escape at home..I left her 25 years ago....remember this is only a short term contract 1 year, 12 months, 365 days...if you want to go flying, do it on their terms or not at all....if it doesn't suit, forget it entirely...as I have said earlier we are all prostitutes in this contract game and the high moral ground will change nothing..

fullforward

11th Apr 2013, 22:36

Thanks to people like you our career has been spiraling down disgustingly for the latest 15 years.
For people like you shame, dignity, honor, pride are meaningless words.
As for being prostitutes do not judge the others by your own rules and "values".:ugh:

zlin77

12th Apr 2013, 04:33

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

fullforward

20th Apr 2013, 08:13

The indian pilots made it very clear that they wouldn't accept to be "posted" outside India more that 15 consecutive days a month!...
But the expats...

cyrilroy21

23rd Apr 2013, 13:43

Jet Pilots' body against extension of deadline for expat pilots - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/jet-pilots-body-against-extension-of-deadline-for-expat-pilots/articleshow/19695503.cms)

captjns

23rd Apr 2013, 15:22

Deja vu for the umpteenth time.

Bulk of the 737 pilots terminated in Aug. & Sept. last year. Talk of the rest gone by year's end.

No more expat A330 skippers as of last fall.

Same with a few ATR skippers being terminated too. More to go as more FOs get their command on the ATR.

The 777 group will also become extinct as skippers transition from the baby Boeing. That however will happen at a much slowe pace than with the other fleets.

There is career progression at Jet as they promote FOs to the left seat, and they are hiring 100 FOs off the street, another omission from the article. That said, India is not known for its accuracy and fact checking as it comes to its print media.

fullforward

23rd Apr 2013, 15:56

This make evident how the local pilots, with the help of local media, are shortsighted: there's no jobs enough for the simple reason that the international air traffic in India is 70% dominated by international carriers ( namely ME carriers) and there's no any goverment policy to protect and improve the local airlines (except support the huge mammouth Air India at the expense of taxpayers).
It's not a few dozen of expats that will make any difference on jobs availability for the young Indian CPL holder.
As always, the locals aim their guns on the wrong direction... :ugh::{

av8r76

23rd Apr 2013, 16:43

The pilot body will influence and question decisions which affect them directly. It really isn't their place to question and/or influence higher level policy decisions. Way beyond their pay grade. These higher level decisions are better left to the ballot box. Even if their intentions were to try to steer the nations aviation policy in a certain direction, best to pick low hanging fruit ie FATA extensions, before moving to bigger issues.

What's holding up career progression for locals is limited training resources. Easier and more efficient to hire expats to fill the gap.

The days of expats in India are slowly but surely coming to an end, if it isn't obvious already. When I flew as an FO in one of the LCC's between '06 and '09, the expat-local captain ratio was almost 50/50. Now they have terminated all expat contracts and are solely relying on local crews. The local supply has caught up with the dwindling demand and the inevitable has happened. No point in blaming the local guys for their actions. It was only a matter of time.

I do, however, take exception to the fact fudging that is so prevalent in Indian aviation. It isn't easy to move shop for expats, and often they are treated as dispensable labour with no long term consideration for their well being. I guess it comes with the territory.

Good luck to all.

Sky Dancer

25th Apr 2013, 06:25

I posted something a couple days back , it's for the EY deal.The THY deal is over.Jet has major plans for AUH as their hub but time will tell if they will be successful , and if not that would mean another job hunt for the 777 drivers.

seniortrash

1st May 2013, 05:09

I spoke with the Snr Gen Mgr Ops Planning two days ago.
The THY deal is signed.
The first aircraft will operate from 1st June on a daily IST-LHR-IST-DXB-IST rotation giving plenty of line training (induction) sectors and good a/c utilisation.
A/c 2 & 3 are planned to start in August when it is anticipated that adequate crews will have been recruited and trained to allow the IST-GRU-EZE-GRU-IST-ICN-IST rotations to start.
Indian DGCA scheduling rules are quite restrictive for long sectors involving multiple timezone changes which gives a higher crewing requirement than might otherwise be expected and is a significant influence on Jet's preference for a 6 weeks on 2 off pattern.
There are 30+ pilots who have been screened and contracts issued but only ONE pilot has, at the time of writing, commenced his ground school induction.

HTH
S.T.

fullforward

1st May 2013, 10:36

Pretty accurate.
But of course it depends on how truthful is the info at the hands of Snr Mngr...:confused:
9W have an historic of changing their minds with the wind.
Time will tell.

seniortrash

1st May 2013, 13:17

Pretty accurate.Thank you for your qualified approval. Please give us all the benefit of the TOTALLY accurate info that you are obviously in possession of.

S.T.

fullforward

9th May 2013, 13:57

Marvel you're spot on again.

Jet's management needs to realize that the pool of cheapely available drivers, living on fat pensions and willing to give anything to get strapped to a flight deck, (Snr Thrash et caterva come to mind...) is dried.

However, like you've mentioned on post # 235, it looks like they are already late. Even if they offer a REAL contract there's the long history about Jet's mismanegements with expats, exaustively discussed here.

Aeronotix

14th May 2013, 05:46

Salaries still come in on the 15th of each month:{

Though we are informed that the revised salary agreement will come into force from next month:) Some relief!

No news on arrears as yet:(

cyrilroy21

17th May 2013, 16:47

Looks like Jet Airways got what it asked for

The Ministry also extended the deadline of reducing the number of foreign pilots to zero by three years till 2016 while asking the carriers to reduce the number of expatriates in their ranks and recruit more Indians holding the Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL), even as trainees, he said.

Civil Aviation Ministry asks airlines to limit number of 'privileged' seats - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/civil-aviation-ministry-asks-airlines-to-limit-number-of-privileged-seats/articleshow/20109144.cms)

Aeronotix

21st May 2013, 06:23

'Old wine in new bottle' served down throats by Jet.:bored:

rdr

23rd May 2013, 20:25

I fully agree with Marvelman.
Its high time to expose the going ons in Indian aviation. From the DGCA, to Air India, the private carriers and the government posturing.

The terms are well and truly insulting, with an eye to capturing the over 60 bunch who have no where to go.

fatbus

29th May 2013, 13:21

Is travel to from during the 20 or 10?

fullforward

24th Jun 2013, 11:09

I can't stop laughing on this one, the best joke of the year so far:

" If you don't like the terms write the company, at this point they are thinking there aren't any B777 captains out there."

Yes! If we don't tell them they won't realize this fact of life!
Advertising on 5 agencies since late last year and only a handfull of captains!

I'm LFMAO!

fatbus

24th Jun 2013, 17:34

Some people have a short memory, Jet terminated expat contract 777/330 a few years back when things did not work out the way Jet wanted. Only time will tell if it happens again , my guess is it wont last the term of the contract.Best of luck to those who go.

fullforward

3rd Jul 2013, 19:54

TAC convenientely edited his post after my reply! And then erased his answer to my post, the same day.
What a clown! He don't stand by his own words.
This bozo deserve zero credibility.:ugh:

cyrilroy21

5th Jul 2013, 16:10

In case anyone is interested Jet Airways is Directly hiring 777 TRI / TRE / Line Captain

More details have a look here

Jet Airways | Careers (http://www.jetairways.com/EN/IN/Careers/Vacancies.aspx#B777TRETRILineCaptain)

vinayak

6th Jul 2013, 05:38

Candidates should be an Expatriate Captain and should possess current Foreign License, ATPL and Class I Medical. Candidates applying should be below 64 years of age.

Whaaaaat! No value sala!

Guess no Air India guys jumping in here then. Thank you SWIP :}

fullforward

11th Jul 2013, 17:24

JA isn't serious about looking for B777 captains.
After 8 months advertising on 5 different agencies they got only a handful of either family haters or desperates...
On the other side you're right on the money: nobody would leave a current job to join JA, for the reasons you mentioned.

captjns

23rd Jul 2013, 22:44

Show me the pictures and show me the proof. Hear say does not cut it folks:=.

Can any B777 expat corroborate these allegations?

Keylime

29th Jul 2013, 19:40

It has been two weeks since the notice of update of improved conditions was posted. Any news???

Keylime

31st Jul 2013, 15:34

Latest on T & C's from a Jet Airways recruiter.

TRE – 6000 Total Hours including Total PIC 3000hrs & 1250 hrs on type as PIC with a minimum of 50 hrs instructional experience on type.

TRI – 6000 Total Hours including Total PIC 3000hrs & 1000 hrs on type as PIC with a minimum of 50 hrs instructional experience on type.

Line Captain – Total of 6000hrs with 3000 hours as total PIC & minimum of 700 hours in command on type. Maximum age at application is 64 yrs and Jet Airways are accepting last flown date within the last 2yrs at the time of approving the application.

SCREENING PROCESS:

Jet Airways will be responsible for all costs associated with short-listed Crew Members attending a screening/selection process. The costs will include air tickets, ground transportation and accommodation.

Screening is followed by a Pre-medical test as per Jet Airways’ new procedure for which the Captains are required to stay in Mumbai for 5-6 nights if they clear the screening, before they travel back to their hometown. Pre-medical will be conducted by Jet Airways.

TERMS & CONDITIONS:

Contract Length:

THREE YEAR contract subject to Indian DGCA approval (for 3yr contract you must be under age of 62 at time of joining)

Monthly Salary (NET):

TRE - $12,500USD/month

TRI - $12,000USD/month

Line Captain - $11,000USD/month

Overtime Payment:

$150USD/hour (NET) over & above 80hrs/month

Base:

Istanbul, Turkey

Initially everyone is brought into Mumbai to complete training and when they are released on line they will be based in Istanbul. They will be brought back to Mumbai for their Air law exam, Indian medical and simulator prof checks every 6 months. All the Pilots block off travel will mostly be on TK directly from Istanbul so that they do not waste time in travelling up and down from Mumbai.

Current Crew Roster Pattern:

6 weeks ON/2 weeks OFF

Leave:

15 days paid leave in 12 months (pro-rated for any part of the year)

Sick Leave:

10 days sick leave in 12 months

License Renewal/Medical/Proficiency:

The Crew Member is responsible for renewing their license, medicals and proficiency from the jurisdiction of the licensing authority of the crew member’s home country. This is to be taken in consultation with the Airline and the Crew Member. This period is included in the Annual Leave period mentioned above.

Accommodation:

Jet Airways shall provide you with hotel accommodation for the initial 30 days on your arrival in India, during this period, you are expected to source your own accommodation. After the said period, and on your sourcing accommodation, Jet Airways will pay you a compensation of Rs1.00 Lac per month (net of taxes) towards your apartment. Wherever necessary Jet Airways will assist you in sourcing the accommodation and also by releasing a sum of not exceeding Rs5.00 Lacs towards security deposit for your apartment. The said deposit will be recovered from your salary in 10 equated monthly installments

TMU Policy:

If a crew member is temporarily medically unfit while on duty with Jet Airways, he is entitled for 70% of his monthly salary only after exhausting all his accrued / accumulated leave for a maximum period of 6 months. Services of pilots remaining under TMU status beyond the period of 6 months shall be put on ‘Leave without Pay’ till the time the pilot is declared fit by the competent authority or end of employment contract whichever is earlier.

Accident Insurance:

Jet Airways will insure a crew member on a 24 hour basis against risk of death or personal injury by accident for a sum of Rupees Eighty lacs fifty five thousand (Rs 80,55,000/-) which can be revised from time to time as per company policy.

Loss of License Insurance:

A crew member’s ALTP license will be insured by Jet Airways for Rupees Sixty Lacs (Rs 60,00,000/-) against the risk of “Loss of License” on medical grounds.

Mediclaim Coverage:

A crew member and his qualifying family members are entitled for a total Mediclaim coverage up to Rupees 10 lacs per annum, provided the hospitalization expenses are incurred in India alone. Hospitalization expenses outside India are not covered.

Travel Benefits:

Jet Airways shall make travel benefits available to the Crew Member and his qualifying family members, including ID travel, according to Jet Airways’ current policies.

Initial Travel:

The Airline shall arrange and pay for the costs of positive space economy class air tickets for the Crew Members’ travel from their Home Residence to the Base Residence at the beginning of the contract and from the Base Residence to their Home Residence at the completion of the Assignment Period.

Excess Baggage:

Each Crew Member will be reimbursed the cost of excess baggage allowance of 50 kgs at commencement and termination of assignment.

Taxation:

Jet Airways will be responsible for taxation in India

Non-Compete:

Unless dismissed by Jet Airways or contract terminated by mutual agreement, Pilot may not be assigned to another airline in India for a period of 12 months unless this is waived in writing by Jet Airways.

If interested, please apply online with your CV making sure it contains the following information:

1) Date of Birth, Nationality

2) Total flying hours till date

3) Total PIC

4) PIC on B777

5) Date last flown

NEW INFORMATION ON RECURRENCY TRAINING:

It has been decided by the Jet Airways Management that they will take care of the expenses involved in undergoing recency training for B777 Captains who have not flown for more than 1 year subject to the following:

1. Submission of Course completion certificate from Approved TRTO (Approved by the Licencing authority of the Captain)
2. Verification from the Licencing authority to the effect that he has a valid B777 PIC rating and his IR is current
3. Reimbursement will be done after the Captain joins Jet Airways and on submission of original receipt from the TRTO /Proof from the Captain having paid the billed amount .
4. Re-currency training to be done only after successful completion of screening,
5. Cost involved for the training to be intimated to Jet Airways and approval to be obtained from Jet Airways prior to commencement of Training .

fullforward

31st Jul 2013, 21:20

This has been offered since 6 months ago...:confused:

Keylime

1st Aug 2013, 19:55

This has been offered since 6 months ago...

Good to see they are making progress. Unbelievable. Can't understand why they can't recruit 777 drivers.

fullforward

2nd Aug 2013, 17:54

They aren't serious about their 777 recruitment plans.:ugh:

fullforward

11th Aug 2013, 15:35

1 - Credibility problems? Oh yes. A lot. They hired many dozens of expats to just furlough all of them in a short time. The "loyalty bonus" is as credible as their promised great contract, which lured dozens of 737 captains and irresponsibly fired all after just a few months.

2 - Do they think expats are bunch of old fools and greedy MF? Oh, a big YES.

They need to get serious or will crash more loudly than KingFisher.

fullforward

18th Aug 2013, 19:48

Spot on, Marvel.

As always Jet benefit from a group that don't have the slightest self respect.
Despicable cheap prostitutes ( no intention to offend the prostitutes) would be a good definition for the majority of this group.

Worse, they lowered the bar for everybody else who actually NEED decent terms and conditions. :mad:

captjns

24th Aug 2013, 01:49

I’m not sure name-calling is your best approach?
Cheers OBP

Too much sugar in the lad's diet, me thinks.:cool:

fatbus

24th Aug 2013, 08:23

I'm shocked , are people saying there is unprofessional / corrupt Indian pilots trying to pull a scam?

Nothing new !!

Have dealt with some in the past few years,Parker pen pilots who are full of themselves . They need to be weeded out before an accident .

Brookfield Abused

24th Aug 2013, 08:46

Was there last week in Mumbai. Jet flights bach-n-forth worked just fine. Arriving & transport to the hotel in BOM no issue. Hotel itself decent enough with breakfast & one buffet meal included (so flights & hotel paid for). In the sim, 3 from 7 failed the screening over two days. Two Jet CP's present, very pleasant, cordial & fair. I had no problems, my partner did get 2 repeats and even after that was given a GREEN LIGHT to proceed to the medicals (if you fail the screening no medical naturally). Two day medical (they provide transport & pay for all costs there) right afterwards (so you are there for min. 3 days) - same as performed in China, very detailed, way more specific then the FAA or EU. I suggest you have a full ultra sound of your heart (2D) and stomach area (liver, spleen, etc.), CBC and Liver Function Test prior to going to aovid any surprises. From those medical results, 2 from 3 candidates had follow up issues after returning to their home countries. That means re-tests, a letter from your Doc, re-submission to the Jet Doc, if he OK's, then a contract. So from 7 only one made it clean thru without complications :-)
Looking for 100 CPs!

captjns

24th Aug 2013, 12:18

Believe it or not, yes even in India there's a sane reason for the extensive medical evaluation during one's assessment in Bombay.

Around October 2010 Indian Pilots won the battle in court, requiring all expats flying with FATAs must submit to the Indian Medical, which is conducted by the Indian Air Force.

The first group of expats submitted to the medical procedure in January 2012, resulting in a fairly a high failure rate. Not only with Jet Airways crews, but with Indigo, Spice Jets, and Air India Express as well.

Expats, like locals, go to a hospital in their base town, and submit to "Pre-medical" The initial pre-medical includes Resting EKG, Stress Test, X-Ray, Full Blood work, and Ultra Sound. All reports are "Purple Stamped" by the hospital doctors and or lab technicians. Before proceeding off to Bangalore, the Company Doctors, also add their "Purple Stamp" the medical reports. Problem was, in 2012, the doctors stamped the reports, knowing that numbers were not within the parameters. Thus off the expat goes to Bangalore... doomed for problems with the Air Force Medical. If there are issues found by the medicos in then off he/she goes to the Malipar Hospital for further study, and reports on deficiencies. Then back to the Air Force Facility with the results. Thumbs up, one gets their medical certificate. Thumbs down, one gets to go home on a TMU (Temporary Medical Unfit) Status.

The bad or good news about a TMU??? time off, to resolve one's issues or seek employment elsewhere, with 70% pay for the period not to exceed, now 6 months. Other carriers sent their crews packing without TMU pay. I believe Jet Airways still provides for TMU pay, versus Spice, Air India Express, which do not.

The Indian Air Force, like China uses their own guide lines, and parameters which margins, perhaps may be narrower than other countries.

Thus the reason for the medical assessment by Jet Airways.

captjns

31st Aug 2013, 16:23

Should added that caveat to the TMU OBP...

Cheers:ok:

doctordoom

15th Oct 2013, 08:29

A Mate of mine has recently been hired by Jet Airways on the 777. He applied through DPI and was very happy with the whole process.:ok:
So they are still taking guys on the 777

Masagemarad

16th Oct 2013, 01:27

Jet Airways is not reimbursing for visa expenses to fly to Mumbai, and the carrot that they are putting out they will cover and pay recurrent training is misleading. After you attend they offer you a contract than you have to go and find a local TRTO organization and pay for the recurrent out of pocket. It is only after you complete training at Jet than they will reimburse your out of pocket expense so on average guys are waiting two to three months. I was upset getting stiffed on not getting reimbursed for the visa that was almost three hundred euros.

Captaintalkalot

16th Oct 2013, 09:37

Hi all

Wondered if anyone could give me some information about working for Jet Airways and what its ACTUALLY like.

If anyone could PM me and we could exchange emails for a good chat and some more details.

Many Thanks Everyone

777AV8R

16th Oct 2013, 13:18

I told you so.

Having worked there several years ago, nothing has changed.

As soon as the ink is dry on your contract, the game changes. And; this is probably just the start.

As a result, you all will be: :ugh:

777AV8R

18th Oct 2013, 16:20

Except, I do feel sorry for those guys and gals in our profession who NEED a job. Those who are double dipping their pensions, I don't feel sorry for and the whining is more from the latter than the former. Furthermore; it is the double-dippers who are actually making more of a mess of the contract system than those who are legitimately trying to feed their families and look after their loved ones.

The only way to be a contract pilot is have the guts to cut the ties while working for any of the legacies, get rid of your pension and all the fancy benefits, and experience what real work is all about.

Contract flying is NOT on your bargaining terms gentlemen. Contract flying is ACCEPTING THEIR terms. As a career contract pilot I had to understand that.

A contract pilot see him/herself as not being treated fairly most of the time. Whats fair? The union environment won't protect an expat contract pilot and furthermore, being a member of IFALPA won't help you one bit.

That said however; those contract pilots who have 'bitten the bullet' and decided to become a career contract pilots have been some of the best guys/gals that I've ever worked with.

Being a contract pilot is not easy work. Its hard. We are evaluated differently and we have to prove ourselves every day. The local pilots hate us and the contract agencies don't give a darn about us once the deal is signed with them. They don't care. They're getting their money each month.

A contract pilot is 'on call' 24/7, despite what the piece of paper says. A local always has the 'protection' and can do whatever they want. Book off..call an Expat to do the work. Easy. A local can get away with a lot of things that we contract pilots can't. They know it. We have no leg to stand on.

At the end of the day, though, there is a day of reckoning.

I have a long memory and there are some situations that I wouldn't ever consider getting back into even if I receive a personal email from the GM, asking me to come back.

I really wish things were different in the aviation world, especially for those good guys and gals who really need the work. Unfortunately, our world is fraught with employers who want to take everything and see that a meagre wage and the chance to fly their big heavy iron is enticing. To some, it is.

If I had the bucks and a few years left, I'd apply for an AOC and get the job done right.

Thoughtfully envisioned route/route structure
A commitment to air safety at any cost
A quality system that works
A team of TRIs who know what they are talking about and don't think that teaching is asking a bunch of useless questions.
A scheduling system that works and a team of schedulers who actually know what they are doing.
A cadré of flight crew who are keen to work, work hard and know that if they put their time in, they will get something back at the end of the month.
A set of Cabin Crew who are well trained, are respected by the flight crew and who are not afraid to talk to their management for fear of being punished for not wanting to take abuse.

I could go on and on.

If you sign the contract, you have to accept it. No negotiating. In fact, trying to negotiating a contract will only meet with an affront. It means that the company is actually on the right track and they see that they are doing the right thing...they are making money and all is well.

My regards to all of you who are trying to work in the environment but sadly this is a story that will continue to be replayed, over and over.

There are choices.

Masagemarad

29th Oct 2013, 00:10

You are so full of it Just like all the othe head hunters like Parc and Sigma pumping up Jet AirAirways we are tired of drinking the cool aid jerk off.
I just came from there and was not impressed after being lied to and mislead.

1. I was just given economy tickets two days before the interview so I had to pay top dollar for an airline ticket to the gateway. Mind you I had been waiting eight weeks for a damn interview date all about disorganized. My seats were in the last row next to the lavatory arrived at the hotel the Ramada Inn at one am in the morning and told at the front desk to be down stairs in five hours for a pick up. Talk about arriving fresh to Mumbai for an Interview.
And I was not reimbursed for my airline ticket 700 euros.
2. Any one that tavels to India needs to get a Visa well the Head hunters say that you get reimbursed for that and you dont plan on spending three hundred Euros out of your pocket for that.
3. And the most arrogant lie is they will pay for training is false the contract states that you have to go find your own training that offers training go do the recurrent pay for everything including the training, airfare, hotel and meals than after about three months after you are all checked out on the line only than you get paid what a crock of crap. JET AIRWAYS is pay to fly training for a wide body.
Any one thinking of going over don't waste your time your only going to waste your money for nothing and not get reimbursed, there are better options out there these fly by night head hunters need to run for the hills and the airline needs to open up its check book.

777AV8R

29th Oct 2013, 02:20

Yup...the best employment agency is the one that is out of business. These people have no interest in looking after the pilot's interests. Once they have you signed...they get paid...and..the rest of the problems are yours.

Never again...

OMAAbound

29th Oct 2013, 07:56

Morning Chaps

I'm hearing something similar to what's being said here. I don't think EY have yet decided officially what they will be doing with them. We have heard that they will be deployed on the YYZ and ORD routes. I'd imagine maybe this will be due to the close proximity of the pair and Jet will be able to open a North America Base. But who knows!

Wondered if anyone could confirm how many will be coming to AUH? And what will be happening with the rest of them? Will they still be staying on the DEL/BOM-LHR route?

OMAA

fullforward

29th Oct 2013, 19:18

I know from at least 3 folks that got reimbursed from the retraining costs (15ish K) just 2 weeks after signing the dotted line.
As per the ticket for the interview they are very clear about reimbursing up to 1k USD, which they honored as well.
And for your seat preference, sorry, but I dont think anyone nowadays will offer you a confirmed business seat for an interview, except maybe KAL.
But this is another story.
I wont call JET a bunch of liars.
Of course MANY things could be improved, beginning with the rotation itself.

Lastly, simulators can have problems on any single airline in the world.:ugh:

zlin77

29th Oct 2013, 20:33

Latest rumours from various places seem to indicate that all IST based contract crew will be moved to AUH in June 2014..Jet A/C will then operate to The U.S. East Coast, five more 777s coming as well, with the possibility of a base on The U.S. East Coast, shades of 2007...:)

NG_Kaptain

11th Nov 2013, 04:53

JFK base for 12 weeks on is way to long of a rotation for me?
When Turkish lease is over I guess it is time to go.
I will never make it to the bonus, life is to short.
If I were to consider it they need to improve the contract. Four on, four off might be good. Confirmed business class upgradeable to first would be nice for the commute . A validation on my UAE ATP without having to do the Indian medical would be a bonus.

Canuck15

12th Nov 2013, 06:17

NG KAP

wishful thinking would be an understatement ..........gettin tired of the VOBL visits

NG_Kaptain

12th Nov 2013, 10:54

wishful thinking would be an understatement ..........gettin tired of the VOBL visits

Wishful thinking indeed. The carrot is North American basing but other things also need to be good. They wrote me and told the rotations were 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off, not bad, but there were a few other things I am not happy with. Maybe market forces will make them improve some of the little things.
Don't get VOBL's, some BOM and DEL on the freighter though :):)

Masagemarad

1st Dec 2013, 23:57

Your are right on they half the management there does not care for expats I got the cold shoulder you hold out your hand introducing yourself and they will not give you the time of day. I was there with two other captains one from Spain and the other the USA and they felt the same way about it.

Taylor01

2nd Dec 2013, 07:39

I will completely disagree with the above post. I have just finished my assessment and I have never felt more welcome. I am from the US and have lived in the sandpit for over 7 years and it was refreshing to see handshakes all around, several other company check rides were going on and I was introduced to everyone and they were very receptive to me. It is nice to see relaxed check airmen and a friendly atmosphere in the sim. Good luck to anyone else going over. See you in ORD or JFK!

Gerifalte

7th Dec 2013, 11:34

I wonder if Jet accepts Captains NTR on B777, but with +10k TT?

captjns

7th Dec 2013, 17:16

Gerifalt asks I wonder if Jet accepts Captains NTR on B777, but with +10k TT?

Per Jet the 700 PIC in type is a DGCA requirement. Many current Jet 737 expats made the same enquiry.

captjns

8th Dec 2013, 14:10

While not EY or 9W, there are airlines that hire into the triple without time on type. KAL, for example, will hire DECs provided they have previous wide body experience within a specified period of time.

B744-B777

14th Dec 2013, 09:08

Can anyone presently operating the Jet Airways lease to Turkish airline kindly pm me, I need the job and am slated to start and need genuine facts and figure both about conditions of lease, istanbul pay, commuting and hotels please

Masagemarad

29th Dec 2013, 16:22

Well they are sure as he'll not trying to damn hard I was there and they shot three captains flying with well known other carriers, and to boot they don't reimburse you any visa expenses which anyone that goes over has to shell out over three hundred Euros and the plane ticket to get to there gateway.
It's not worth pissing away all that money for an outfit that is wishy washy.

All these recruiting agencies are so full of it painting this operation all rosy hell they could sell ice to an Eskimo.

captjns

19th Jan 2014, 02:13

Didn't like the 8 weeks on 2 weeks off deal.

Circumnavigator

19th Jan 2014, 06:25

I used to work for Jet in 2007-2010, was in first batch of 777 drivers who join Jet in March 2007, so I guess, I can answer some of your questions regarding past experience with Jet. Also I was in BOM a few weeks ago on the layover and spoke to Mr. Menon - GM Planning at Jet about this US bases contract. So I can give you first hand information. It's another story if you can trust everything he said, it's "Incredible India" after all, but in my experience K.B.Menon was one of the most straightforward, knowlegible and fair of all those Jet officials who dealed with expats.

Can Jet back up the promise of three year renewable contracts - is there any law or regulation prohibiting them from extending a three year contract.
Jet, in 2007, offered us a 3 year renewable contracts with 12 days on/9 days off roster, 30 days annual leave and 5 star accommodation, but after being hit quite badly in 2008 crisis with the fuel prices skyrocketed, Jet gradually reduce annual leave to 15 days and hotel quality went down considerably. Also it was a 15 days delay in paychecks but they restored it back to normal after about a year. The rest of the contract was honored to the last letter until Jet dry leased 777 to THY and THAI to survive, and terminated our contracts. For the last 3 months we were sitting at home, fully paid, doing nothing but just waiting for further developments. So I can say that Jet treated me quite fair. If I missed something, whoever has a better memory, please feel free to correct me. Anyway, now with all the UAE money backing them, Jet is in much better financial shape and plans to expand dramatically with AUH hub. Menon told me that JFK, EWR and ORD bases will be operated for sure and after they evaluate initial results, plans are to expand further. The only thing which might remotely limit 3 year contract is a deadline set by Indian government to get rid of expats in Indian Aviation by the end of 2016. But I've already lived through 2 deadlines before. Everybody in aviation community here understand that this is a trick to pacify general public and unions and deadline would be extended again and again for another at least 10 years.

One of its shareholders prefers to have its pilots based in its home country.
No idea what you talking about. You are employed by Indian Airline which pays Indian taxes on your behalf, and your base would be wherever your contract with this Indian Airline states.

Jet, to my knowledge, have 10 B773ERs. Are they going to stay in Jet registrations or will they be wet leased to one of its shareholders.
It'll be Indian registration, so you'll require a Indian validation-FATA and Indian medical. Also it'd be Indian DGCA FDTL rules.

Does anyone have practical experience with the reciprocal tax treaty?
Yes, actually it works quite good with Revenue Canada. Each month you'll get a statement with all your salary numbers including Indian taxes paid on your behalf and by the end of the year you'll get a summary of all numbers. Also you'll get a plastic card with Indian taxpayer number. All that paperwork was quite sufficient to deal with Revenue Canada and after minor adjustments from their side I only did paid the difference- a few %, roughly 2-3 grands a year. In US it works pretty much the same way with some local particularities( talk to your tax advisor). As far as I know, our EU friends, Aussies and Kiwis were quite happy also.

Does anyone have practical knowledge of how the rosters worked in the past, and how they might, or are proposed to work with these contracts. If you operate out of your base, there's 28 hours, and that leaves 52 for the rest of the month. Unless they plan to leave you in a hotel (cost) or put you on night turnarounds, it would seem that you could have quite a bit of time off during your six weeks on.
Menon told me that it'd be only JFK-AUH-JFK run, 4 days on( including 26 hours of flying +48 hours layover at AUH) / 5 days off at JFK(DGCA FDTL requirements). Then repeat. Hotel at AUH and either hotel or $1800 per month allowance at JFK, your choice. After 5 roundtrips (45 days) you'll have two weeks at home. That's the general idea but reality could be a bit different.

Hopefully I was able to answer some of your questions and to put some clarity on overall situation there. Good luck.

Taylor01

22nd Jan 2014, 20:30

I just got this email from from FCI (flight crew international) It seems Jet has added a nice housing allowance on top of the contract...se you boys in May!
I have done the screening and have been hired so if you need any more info that I haven't put on here before please pm me..
Dear Captain,

We are pleased to inform you that Jet Airways is now offering USD 19,500.00/year in housing allowance for B777 Captains based in JFK, ORD, and AUH.

This will increase your guaranteed annual pay to USD 175,500.00/net + Per Diem + Overtime.

Please send us your CV with your B777 flying experience if you would like to attend screenings.

Reminder, this is a commuting contract and Captains will have the choice of being based at any of the following locations:

1) New York (JFK)
2) Chicago (ORD)
3) Abu Dhabi (AUH)
4) Mumbai (BOM)
5) Istanbul (IST) – till end of June 2014 (completion of wet lease with Turkish Airlines)

Attached please find the full contract details. The contract highlights are as follows:

§ US $175,500.00/net annual pay + per diem + overtime
§ Taxes in India paid on your behalf – USA & many countries have a Double Taxation Avoidance Treaty with India
§ 6 weeks ON / 3 weeks OFF – you can have two periods of such roster as you can pair your annual leave with your days-off in one week increments
§ Days-off do not include travel time
§ 3-year Renewable Contract
§ Fly up to the age of 65
§ Travel on Jet Airways, Etihad, and Turkish Airlines on days-off + Allowance for your Commute Home
§ Maximum time away from base only 2-3 days

Thank you and kind regards,

Aasiya Shaikh
Flight Crew International
T: 1-214-705-7979
F: 1-214-705-7927
E: [email protected]
Pilot Jobs | Flight Crew | Flight Crew International | Texas (http://www.flightcrewint.com)

Kapitanleutnant

31st Jan 2014, 15:02

Wonder how the recently announced restriction on Indian carriers will affect this whole offer??? Anyone have any ideas?

Sounds like Indian carriers will not be able to increase flights to the US… just stick with what they currently have. Not sure if that means they can increase service to existing cities or what.

Thoughts?

Kap

Taylor01

1st Feb 2014, 13:24

1. You will only be gone from base 4 days at a time. (confirmed in a email to me)
2. You will not be sent to other destination...read above post for more info.

From previous post:
Does anyone have practical knowledge of how the rosters worked in the past, and how they might, or are proposed to work with these contracts. If you operate out of your base, there's 28 hours, and that leaves 52 for the rest of the month. Unless they plan to leave you in a hotel (cost) or put you on night turnarounds, it would seem that you could have quite a bit of time off during your six weeks on.
Menon told me that it'd be only JFK-AUH-JFK run, 4 days on( including 26 hours of flying +48 hours layover at AUH) / 5 days off at JFK(DGCA FDTL requirements). Then repeat. Hotel at AUH and either hotel or $1800 per month allowance at JFK, your choice. After 5 roundtrips (45 days) you'll have two weeks at home. That's the general idea but reality could be a bit different.

Taylor01

1st Feb 2014, 16:13

I agree about the health care issue. It will be around $1000 USD for me and my family. You are correct my contract say Mumbai base. But I have been told via email that I will be based, after the first month of training in JFK/EWR. Like I said before I will let you guys know what happens. My kids live back in the US and I have been in the Middle East for 7 years, it is time to go. If I can see my boys every other month for 2 weeks, it is better than twice a year here. This whole industry is a gamble as we all know and here you are only as good as you last flight. I will take my chances and hope to fly with some of you guys once this all gets worked out. Good luck to you all.:ok:

Stuck_in_an_ATR

1st Feb 2014, 16:43

Hi guys,

I worked for Jet (on a different type) a couple of years ago and I think I can offer some perspective for those who consider the job. So, here's my 3 Rupees worth:

- the contract was generally respected, never had any problems
- pay was mostly on time (there was about 1-2 week delay at some point), but never was short-changed, always got what was due...
- things promised outside contract were adhered to
- Expat Cell personnel was helpful and flexible. Mr. Mennon was a very nice Gentleman
- not even once had to travel in Economy (even though my contract stipulated Economy tickets only). Once or twice, when Premiere was full, was offered a crew bunk. Also airport staff was generally very helpful and respectful towards 'captains'
- health coverage in was very good (used it only for minor stuff, though)
- hotels ranged from very good, to not-so-good

issues:
- things tended to be disorganized at times
- rosters were constantly changing and we were worked to the limits (120hrs/mth), but that was domestic flying
- living in India is not everyone's cup of tea...
-sometimes dealing with evem simple things required utmost patience (like, getting a cell phone, changing bank account details was almost mission impossible).

Hope this helps...

Stuck

Stuck_in_an_ATR

1st Feb 2014, 18:42

Re basing: IIRC, everyone's original contact stipulated Mumbai as base, and after release on-line we got a written notification of base change. Make of it what you will...

fullforward

2nd Feb 2014, 08:07

You're spot on.

For those of you thinking they will secure you doing pairings US AUH only, don't hold your breath. It will never happen, period.
They have enough guys willing to accept ANYTHING to be strapped on a flight deck again. These guys pretend showing some discontent etc, but they actually don't care.
They have good pensions and are there only for the "Indian adventure" or running away from the fat and boring wives...sorry.
Jet is legitimately taking advantage of the "greed factor" of this kind of people.
Sad.
Of course there a people who badly need the job. But they are the minority.
These professionals will never see any improvement on terms thanks to the first group.

Circumnavigator

4th Feb 2014, 19:48

Well, based on my previous 3+ years experience with Jet, here are how medical coverage worked in the past. There were 2 types of medical insurance for expats at Jet ( and you had 2 plastic cards with all the numbers):
- While in India we had a policy with Oriental Insurance Co. Ltd. for ourselves and immediate family members. Works OK, several guys had some minor issues, like "Delhi belly", food poisoning etc. and that insurance was accepted by majority of nicely equipped private hospitals, no questions were asked.
-While flying all over the world outside of India, Jet crew were covered by policy with MedAire ( "Google" it). I don't remember if anyone ever used it, so no experience to share.

Also to protect my family while they often visit me on the layovers at bases such as BRU, SFO, PVG etc., I bought a emergency medical travel insurance through CAA ( Canadian AAA). Cost around $320 for three of us.

Regarding possibility of Jet sending you to operate flights from AUH to BOM/DEL instead of JFK, I guess it could happen especially if they need to bring you to BOM for recurrent training, medical, visas etc. but that's not going to be on the regular basis. They have enough Indian crew who wants to be close to home. That's happened in the past when we used to operate SFO-PVG-BOM. Expats operated only SFO-PVG-SFO leg and our Indian friends stay close to home with BOM-PVG-BOM flights.

It's a very dynamic situation over there with new bases to be open and
it's too early to demand some kind of stability, I think.

Circumnavigator

11th Feb 2014, 00:41

Actually Jet has been operating to JFK and EWR through BRU for six years now, since the end of 2007. I've been based there myself for a while. And just a week ago I sow a Jet's A330 at EWR. So those are not a new bases and shouldn't be affected. However ORD could be under question. I hope Jet will start YYZ out of AUH using 777, instead of BRU with A330 they are flying now. Could be a great deal for us, canucks.

For the back up plan:

Feb 10 (Reuters) - India's Jet Airways Ltd , the country's No.2 carrier by domestic market share, said on Monday it did not expect a big fall in revenue due to a recent rating downgrade of India's aviation safety by the United States.
Jet, which sold a 24 percent stake to Abu Dhabi's Etihad last year, is replanning its U.S. strategy after the downgrade, a senior company executive told analysts on a conference call. The airline posted a $43 million net loss for the December-quarter on Friday, its fourth straight quarterly loss. .
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration downgraded India's safety rating to Category 2 on Jan. 31, meaning Jet and state-run Air India, the only two Indian carriers flying to the United States, cannot increase flights.
United Airlines, which had a code-share pact with Jet, said it was suspending placing its code on Jet flights effective Feb. 1, following the downgrade. Jet currently operates seven flights a week to the United States.
"However, there is no restriction on Jet Airways placing its code on any U.S. carrier's flight, including United. So, we do not expect a big reduction in revenue because of this downgrade," Raj Sivakumar, senior vice-president of alliances and planning at Jet, said on the conference call.
"We are in the midst of replanning our strategy of offering consumers viable options into the United States over the coming days and weeks," Sivakumar said, without elaborating. He was replying to a question on whether Jet would use Etihad's network to add more flights to the United States.

So go figure..