Visas and USA training

[ready2fly1]

Have searched the threads for more info on this but not found anything, so was hoping someone out there might know more.

So here is the scenario.

Am now looking to do my flight training out in the USA. I need a JAA PPL (its a condition in order to get my class two CAA medical converted to a class one via their deviation policy)

Would it be possible to do the JAA PPL with a JAA approved school out in the USA. Once I have my JAA PPL, can I then transfer my visa to another school in order to get the FAA ATPL. (I know in order to get the JAA fATPL I would need to come back to JAR-land to get the IR conversion.)

Alternatively would it be possible to do the JAA PPL on a J1 and then go back later and go from PPL the ATPL on the M1 at a different school. Not sure how feasible that is though.

The other option i was thinking was to somehow convert an FAA PPL to JAA PPL. Although not sure how to do that whilst out in the USA ? Is there any restrictions on how and when you can return to visit your home country whilst on a J1/M1 visa? Also got an important family wedding so would like to make sure i could come back for that.

Any advice that can be provided would be greatly appreciated.

R2F

[pilotincommand]

Any school that can do the JAA PPL in the US will also be able to do the FAA licences. Getting your visa transferred is not straightforward.

I can't quite see why you want to do an FAA ATP if your aim is to obtain a JAA fATPL. Unless you're already an airline pilot, the only FAA qualification that has any real conversion value is the IR. Even the Commercial isn't really worth the cost and hassle of obtaining it.

Regarding the M-1 and J-1, both are multi-entry so you shouldn't have any problems in that regard. There are not many schools that can issue the J-1 and it is meant for people who wish to hour build as an instructor, normally for up to two years, to obtain an FAA ATP. This does not convert to a JAA ATPL though unless, as I have already said, you have a reasonable amount of airline experience. You will only get the same terms as someone with a Multi-Engine Commercial and Instrument.

[ready2fly1]

PIC

Thank you for your reply

The problem I have is I am not to keen to do all my training at any of the schools authorised by the CAA to offer the JAA ATPL. (I've not been happy with what I've heard about them). I was hoping just to get my PPL with one of them and then do the remainder at one that offers FAA ATPL and then convert.

Do you think its worth looking more into how to convert the FAA PPL to a JAA PPL and see if that is possible whilst I am out there. Ultimately I'll need the JAA PPL in order to get the Class One which permits me to do any trraining for the conversion in JAR-land.

Good news about the multi-entry aspect. Just now got to make sure I dont have any major study commitments for the days when I need to be back in blighty.

[pilotincommand]

What you have to remember is that most of the FAA-only places in the US are not geared for foreigners and cannot issue the I-20 that you need to get the visa. There are some exceptions but not that many.

Not all the JAA places have poor reputations. I don't want to say that you should go to one place or the other but I have flown in US before and I can confidently say that there are good JAA schools. Like I said before, the only FAA rating that is worth getting to use for conversion is the IR but if you want to do this in one trip you will need to sit both PPL tests as the CAA don't issue Temporary Airman Certificates.

One other thing that you might want to consider is the difference between Part 61 and Part 141 schools. It doesn't make much difference at PPL but there is a big difference with the IR in that under 141 you don't need the 50 hrs X-country PIC time. The definition of X-country is very different in the US from what it is here.

[ready2fly1]

Has anyone used an M1 visa to get their PPL and then later got their CPL on a J1 ?

[Nichibei Aviation]

Converting FAA fATPL into JAA fATPL is not possible unless you have more than 1500 hours PIC or co-pilot on commercial transport (linked to a type-rating).

You won't get 1500 hours PIC or co-pilot unless you get hired in the US for at least 2 years...

I know it sucks but it's not me makin up these rules: http://www.jaat.eu/publications/jars/607069.pdf

Read 1-A-19

If you want to have a cereer in Europe, I suggest you do your full training in JAA.
Also, no school in the USA will permit visa transfers, because they gave you the visa to come and study with them, and they don't want to get involved in security problems, which will lead them to lose the visa issuing rights, and therefore cancel your visa when you leave their school.

Under certain circumstances you can use a travel visa to get instruction.

[pilotincommand]

Nichibei

I believe you are technically correct about being able to do some flying training without an M-1 or J-1 visa (studying less than 18 hrs per week) but I wouldn't like to argue the case with a CBP officer at the airport. Besides, the TSA will not clear you if they find out you don't have a student visa.

[Warrior2]

you MUST have an M1 visa for flight training in the USA, you must be registered with the Transport Security Administration and also the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System. This is a lenghty process and can be costly to be transfered.

W2

[scooby79]

There is no such thing as a FAA fATPL. You can get a CPL/IR but need 1500 hrs for an FAA ATP. The only point in getting an ATP from the FAA would be if you met the requirements to make the conversion easier as I believe someone has posted previously.

[TelBoy]

Not sure why you are looking at FAA ATP and JAA training?? It is also very interesting about the CAA wanting a PPL to issue a Class 1 on deviation - can I ask why? Does the PPL have to be a JAA PPL as you can start the JAA ATP written exams with an FAA PPL and in fact never get a CAA PPL.

To clear a few things up. You can convert an FAA PPL to a CAA PPL by doing two written exams and a RT test and Flight test if you have more than 100 hours TT, in my mind, you might as well do the other writtens!

To do ANY flight training in the US you need a student Visa ie M1 or J1 and you can therefore only go to a school that can offer an I-20. Not all courses need TSA though - I don't think CPL does! see www.flightschoolcandidates.gov (http://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov)

Look at what licence you really need - the US can cost you more in the long run with TSA, travel etc and more training than you expect on return home. If you need an FAA ATP, then forget about the JAA at present and concentrate on the FAA route with a J1 visa. I would also look into how the EASA might affect your class 1 deviation when they take over flight crew licensing in 2009.

All the best mate

[Nichibei Aviation]

Member "pilot in command" is right about the ability of receiving less than full time instruction on a tourist visa (up to 18 hours a week)

You can get the few hours of ground instruction and check-rides needed when you go there for hour building, without needing to apply at TSA, because you are going there for "air-tourism" (don't say that at the customs :=)

If you want to start any training such as PPL or higher, you will need a student visa and registration with TSA.



In my opinion, these TSA rules will disappear soon though, as market needs will compromise security or let's face it, the feeling of security. There's one day that they'll wake up at TSA and realise that terrorists can get student visa's if they wish to, or learn aircraft steering procedures from books and practise on Flight Simulator.:rolleyes:
TSA has been created in the wake of 9/11 to avoid similar things happening again... it wouldn't surprise me if the next presidentials comes up with more rational ways to combat terrorism.

Had the 2001 elections had another winner, I'm not sure 9/11 would have happened and aviation would have looked way better :cool:

[inner]

Are you sure about the visa??

I thought if you have a current pasport (elect readable pasport) you can travel under the visa waiver program so you don't need a visa anymore??

[Nichibei Aviation]

Yes and other rules like your country of residence has to be the same as your country of citizenship, you need to prove you have enough cash to survive, etc...

and the one that hurts most:


Visitors for business or tourism cannot work or study in the United States.


You may not receive any check-rides, you may not receive ground tuition, not 18 hours a week, not 1 hour a week, nada.

Plus the risk that they don't approve you to pass the borders because a little something makes you suspicious.(You didn't undergo background checks, so they do it the best they can over there, between the gates and the arrival halls, for hours, while you'll see many visaed people go past you...)

[kwachon]

Apart from the visa issues, the big stumbling block is TSA, you will be photographed and fingerprinted then a full background check. If any little thing comes up you can forget about any flying in the US and they will advise immigration of your attempt, also you will need an Airside Pass for the airport which means another background check!. TSA will not approve anyone unless their visa allows them to either study in the US or work.

[inner]

So if i understand well TSA will check if you have the proper visa?? I have to go in 2 months to the States but i don't know if my company is arranging this visa thing for me or not.

[kwachon]

Yes, TSA will verify that you have the correct visa to allow flight training.
I am an FAA Instructor and Examiner so please take note so you do not waste your time and money. Also beware of people offering to do all this for you, they cannot.

The following is from the TSA website. AFSP is Alien Flight Student Program. I would suggest that any potential student go to the TSA website and read up on the regulations first. You do not need to log in to read the info and frequently asked questions.

Remember, it is the responsibility of every flight school or flight instructor to register you with the TSA and get approval before you can start any flight training. You are allowed to do ground training, ie the writtens..

Here is the link. https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/

Immigration Status Advisement

[04/17/2007] AFSP may cancel an applicant's flight training request if AFSP becomes aware the candidate is intending to take flight training without the appropriate immigration status. If you have questions about a cancelled request, you may call AFSP at (571) 227-4544. NOTE: Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) of the United States do not require a visa.

[inner]

Kwachon thx for the info.

I know that the flightschool have confirmed my starting date and they in cooperation with my potential employer arranged this visa thing. If not then i'm in deep sh*t.

[inner]

correction:

Flightschool confirmes starting date but i hope they or my potential employer arranged this visa stuff, if not, then i'm in deep sh*t.

[kwachon]

Inner,

Good luck and have fun, it's a great place to fly as long as you follow the rules.

[pilotincommand]

windforce

You need an FAA licence to fly in the US. Unfortunately, the days of just turning up at the FSDO and being given a licence are over. You need to go through a verification process which takes a few weeks and involves paying the CAA to release your details. All the info is on the FAA website.

[kwachon]

Just found this about flight training in the US, makes things a little clearer.

Prior to beginning training, the applicant must register on TSA's Web site, http://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov (http://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/). Initially they will be given a user name and password via e-mail. After receiving the user name and password, the student must log on to the TSA web site and submit the required information concerning their personal identification, passport and visa information, and details of the type of flight training they are seeking. In addition, they will need to submit the following:
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">Ÿ Fingerprints — The prints can be taken either electronically or by provided forms. After they are completed, the prints are sent to the American Association of Airport Executives, who then forwards a copy to TSA. Additional instructions can be found on TSA's Web site at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fp_instr.html (https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fp_instr.html).
Ÿ $130 application processing fee — The fee must be paid by credit card on the TSA's Web site.

Ÿ Photo — TSA recommends taking the photo after the candidate and flight school receive the final e-mail confirming the candidate's eligibility to take flight training, at which point it can either be uploaded to TSA's Web site or faxed to

[inner]

Thx, but i'v e just send tsa and the embassy a mail concerning the visa. Waiting for an answer.

[para2]

For Most of you, you may want to get the visa application started before you move to the USA.

Visa notice: Taking flight training without an appropriate visa could be a violation of your immigration status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United States. If you do not possess the correct visa, or if you have questions pertaining to your visa status or the appropriate visas for flight training, please contact your local Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services at 800/375-5283 or www.uscis.gov (http://www.uscis.gov/)

Candidate Notifies Flight School. The flight training candidate should provide advanced notice to the flight school that he or she intends to start flight training.

Flight School Registers. After the candidate notifies the flight school of their intent to start flight training, the flight school needs to register online with TSA at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/fsindex.html.

Candidate Applies for Training.
Use the TSA student registration page at https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov (https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/) and continues the application process.

The candidate will be required to submit the following information:

* Background Information (http://backgroundsearch.com/backgroundcheckForum/Background-Checks-General/Private-Pilot-test-for-Non-US-Citizens.html#163). Full name, gender, current address and five-year address history, date and country of birth, and citizenship information.
* TSA Identification Number. The TSA identification number is not given to the candidate. Rather, it is an internal designator only seen by TSA.
* Passport and Visa Information. Foreign applicants are required to have a passport. A candidate may either scan his or her complete passport and submit it to TSA electronically, or copy his or her complete passport and fax it to TSA using the fax number provided on the AFSP Web site.
* Training Details. Basic information including the name of the school, course name, course de_script_ion and ID number, type of aircraft, pilot certificate or rating sought, and the start and end dates for the flight training. If the flight school is already registered with TSA, it might be helpful if the candidate brings his or visa and passport and registers at the flight school. This will allow the flight school to upload the required documents to TSA and also to make copies for the flight school's record-keeping requirements.

The following visitors will NOT qualify for the Visa Waiver Program and MUST apply for a visa:

* Persons who have ever been arrested or convicted of any offence (excepting certain fixed penalty driving offences that did not result in a conviction). Note: The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply in respect of US immigration law - if you have ever been arrested or convicted of any offence, no matter how long ago it was, you must apply for a visa before travelling to the US.

* Persons who have ever overstayed in the US, been refused entry or not complied with the rules of the visa under which they were present in the US

* Persons who have certain serious communicable diseases or condition

[Tony77]

no school in the USA will permit visa transfersFalse information, sorry.

[Nichibei Aviation]

A student visa is specific to every school.

We're about to start the SEVIS approval process.
I can tell you no flight training school will transfer your visa because it's simply against its financial interests and because of the workload and responsibility involved in issuing the initial visa.

Not all students understand why, but flight schools are not NGO's :)

[pdsgillett]

Hi

So how long does the Visa process take for the US if everything runs smoothly.

Does anyone have the contact number so i can contact them to ask some questions?

Thanks

[selfin]

If the pilot school or training center has an available course the processing time for applicants visiting the US Embassy in London presently stands at 1 day, with an interview appointment available within 1 day of telephoning. The hold-up will be the TSA security threat assessment (2-4 days) and the I-20 M-N delivery which must be posted from within the US (10 days). All fits comfortably inside two weeks.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/wait/tempvisitors_wait_result.php?post=London&x=57&y=6

[Pace152]

Hey pdsgillet,

for your info the number for the U.S embassy is 09042450100 if I remember correctly. Be warned though, it costs £1.20 a minute!!! :eek:

[BHenderson]

To add to what Selfin has said, I waited 2 weeks for an interview date (which is tomorrow). Don't forget that to issue the I-20 most schools will want a deposit which can take up to 2 weeks to transfer. You can't get an interview without the I-20 details. So that could be 4 weeks in itself.

[pdsgillett]

Selfin/Pace152 thanks for the info.

If i head out to the US to bulid some hours and look at flight schools (on a holiday visa) can i then proceed with my CPl training out there and get all the visa sorted from that end.
I know its not the conventional method but might save me a flight back to the UK.

cheers

[selfin]

The Embassy is only interested in applicants turning up with a valid I-20 M-N. For all intents and purposes they don't need to know it is in the post at the time of making the telephone appointment.

I-20 processing time + delivery is a 15 day job following the TSA assessment. As soon as the DSO says the I-20 is in the post, telephone the Embassy for an appointment 10-15 days in advance of the call. Leave a few days for the passport+M-1 visa to be delivered and you're set to go.

There is no requirement for a TSA security threat assessment for aliens undertaking a Part 61/141 US commercial pilot certificate course. See http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf (69 FR 56324-56343) for a breakdown of when the assessment is required, or 49 USC 44939 (http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t49t50+1071+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20 %28%2849%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20 %2844939%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20), or 49 CFR 1552.3 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ca8e98bee9f342fd78d92cbedeffaf98&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.15&idno=49#49:9.1.3.5.15.1.10.2) or AOPA's Guide (http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/) to TSA's Alien Flight Training/Citizenship Validation Rule.

[selfin]

And for the benefit of others thinking of entering the US under the visa waiver (http://www.uscis.gov/propub/template.htm?view=document&doc_action=sethitdoc&doc_hit=1&doc_searchcontext=jump&s_context=jump&s_action=newSearch&s_method=applyFilter&s_fieldSearch=nxthomecollectionid|SLB&s_fieldSearch=foliodestination|ACT217&s_type=all&hash=0-0-0-209) program an adjustment of status is disallowed. See http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/c2_english.pdf or Sec. 248 of INA (http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=cb90c19a50729fb47fb0686648558dbe).

[chrisbl]

All this has been covered may times in this forum.

[abs_kols]

ok guys im getting different answers from everyone.
According to what i believe -
1) Get I-20
2) Apply for M1 VISA interview
3) Once confirmed visa finish the TSA requirements and payments.
4) go to flying school

Now im getting confused as to whether
a) I do the TSA before applying for the interview or after?
b) What is this SeVIS application?
c) anything else im missing?

:ugh::ugh:

[selfin]

The sequence is as follows for aliens (citizens/nationals of Canada/Mexico may follow a modified sequence):


Find a FAA Part 141 school
Check course availability
Request training
Submit assessment request(s) and fee(s) to TSA
Receive TSA clearance(s)
Enter contract with school for training
Wait for form I-20 from school
Submit SEVIS I-901 fee and application
Complete DOS nonimmigrant visa application(s)
Make appointment with US Embassy/consulate for visa
Attend interview
Receive passport and M–1 visa
Book flights to US
[If applicable:] FAA/JAA/NAA-related tasks (medicals, foreign-based pilot certificates, etc)
Enter US on M–1
Complete form I-94 Arrival-Departure record
Report to school on or before formal start date
Full-time course of training
Ensure school 'closes' TSA request when training is completed
Exit US inside visa status, surrender I-94.

The requirement for a TSA security threat assessment is well-documented in the Federal Register, September 20, 2004 (Volume 69, Number 181), pp. 56324-56343 (http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf).

Where an intention to undertake a course of study in the US has been established an M-1 class of visa is necessary for admission to the US. There is additionally a requirement for alien students to register with SEVIS, prior to petitioning the Department of State for a nonimmigrant visa (the M-1 visa in your case).

SEVIS (http://www.ice.gov/sevis/i17/i17_1.htm) (Student and Exchange Visitor Information System) is the technology behind a programme (SEVP - Student and Exchange Visitor Program) established under §641 of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (as amended by USA PATRIOT Act) [all codified at 8 USC 1372 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001372----000-.html)] which required the collecting of information relating to nonimmigrant alien students and exchange visitor programme participants undertaking a course of study in the US.

From the student's point of view there are only two important considerations regarding SEVIS. 1. Ensuring the selected school is SEVP-certificated, 2. Filing I-901 at www.fmjfee.gov (the SEVIS interface), paying appropriate fee and printing receipt for presentation at the interview.

[abs_kols]

ohh right!! thanks a lot. I might aswell file my TSA stuff now.

Abs

[Asrian]

I'm from Europe and think about doing my PPL in the USA.
My question: Must I do PPL training at part 141 schools only? Is there any legal way I can do PPL training at a part 61 flight school?

[B2N2]

Only Part 141 certified schools can issue the I-20, which is the visa application form.
You can still do your training under part 61 , even with a Part 141 certified school, if you so desire.

[selfin]

Only Part 141 certified schools can issue the I-20, which is the visa application form.
You can still do your training under part 61 , even with a Part 141 certified school, if you so desire.

This is the practice but the Department of Homeland Security will tell you otherwise.

[selfin]

I'm from Europe and think about doing my PPL in the USA.
My question: Must I do PPL training at part 141 schools only? Is there any legal way I can do PPL training at a part 61 flight school?

Notwithstanding my last post, a lady in TSA's AFSP recently told me new rules are being drafted to allow non-141 schools to accept students. You may wish to check with AFSP yourself for more information.

[Asrian]

Thanks for Your replys! Just to get it right:
Currently, at the moment, I can't do legal full-time PPL training in the US at a part-61-only flight school, even if I want to, because I can't get a legal visa status for it? Correct? :confused:

So I have to cancel all part-61-only flight schools from my list of possible schools?

[BigGrecian]

Part 61 training is only available to legal U.S. residents.

Not true.

I can't even count the number of schools providing part 61 training to international students - there's simply to many!