QR facts for the upgrades

[viewpoint]

Dear friends let be more realistic:
1) The upgrades has been stoped since April, 2007. The July batch still waiting for their interview, Octuber and December nothing!!!!!!!!! rumors the Flight Operation Depart. blame the CEO. for make them wait for his aproval.
2) The flight operation depart. don't care what is going on , they just want to now what it going to happen to them.
3) Nobody now if the flight operation depart. will upgrade people in the A330 in the future so if this not happen the max they can do is 2 / month, actual waiting list 38 + december list ?= ? .
4) The last batch will finish the training inshalla in May 2008.

So if you like stories you can belive whatever they are going to tell you but math are simple and don't lie like the FOD.

[loc22550]

Just for info the last Qatar airways FL ops review from Dec 2007 mention:
..."Contrary to what you have been hearing,the command upgrade did NOT stop ...."....:confused::ugh:

I personnaly known some friends who passed the interview 6 months ago..and than nothing......

Let´s say..it has been suspended for a while.......:\

[Firsteagle]

The policy in qr concerning the upgrade is not acceptable ,its actually becoming ridiculus if you conpare it with emirates or ethiad;
experienced fo who joined emirates and ethiad at the same period are already captains since 6 months ago ;for us in qr , we do not have valuable informations ,maybe an additional 2 years comparing it with ethiad or emirates ,anyways you cannot compare for shour in this matter ,training departement has to be blame for this issue:ugh:.

[Qatari515]

Well, a lot of FOs gave them untill this month in order to get news about a decision.

If they (mngmnt) continue to play hide and seek and keeping their mouths shut, most of these guys will leave before summertime.

lets wait and see.....

Not much credit left if you ask me...

[viewpoint]

I want to now what is the diference ( if there is a diference ) between stoped and suspended ?. So LOC 22550, i now the management like to play word games in order to keep the people waiting and waiting.
I whope they can read this thread and understand that the only way to keep the F/O waiting, is to treat them as a professional, adults, tell them the true , give them the right information , let them decide to live or stay.
Most of them have the feeling that the training department did not have any clue how to solve this mess. So a lot are taking the decision to leave before it is to late.
First Eagle is right , the F/Os who leave two years ago are CAPT. all ready!!!, so act quick ,because the planes coming soon !!!!!!!:ugh:

aaaaaah and don't lie please.

[loc22550]

For me ...no difference between stoped or suspended....:bored:
Was just wondering who is right or wrong.....regarding this upgrade problem...?:uhoh:

[CEO PITA]

Its not suspended its stoped !! Did anyone saw someone in office this days who can tell you any valid info ??? NO Becouse all this people do talking of some new virtual management and no one want to take decision and make move scareed for own ass !
A Johar ( am working on it )
S.Sandep ( its all up to upper managemant)
H Fadji ( yes we are doing oure best )
Modar ( o it will be big changes soon )
A.Qush ( 777 is the best/ **** the rest )
Riad Halabi ( naw since am in office desert will be green )
Richard N ( if am in office you would all be captians by naw )

There is no CP or CT which will tell true :
THERE IS NO PROMOTIONS,NO FLEET TRANSF. NOTHING WITHOUT CEO s approval . And CEO is this days busy searching for guy who started on TV and radio talking true about QR and busy chacking if CC was picked by man in front of QR TWR and busy with new cameras instaled so see ther are things to do with higher priority then upgrades !!!

[Safari Goat]

Many letters went out yesterday for the upgrade Interview, Selection and others...................................................

[CEO PITA]

Letters are going out long time a go and without HIM its on HOLD . Already 48 f/s waiting ? What do you think how long it take to finish 48 capt ? 1 y !!!

[oryxbollocks]

Mr S. Goat,

Do you know whether this Pita Bread character is getting a letter? If so, he won't need the training course as he knows everything.

GB

[PIPE RIDER]

First, SNAM Part A is as good as depending on who is being upgraded or who did the mistake and will come with all the punishment for a very silly situation . (open jacket, No hat, Gay CS doesnt like you etc...), and the best thing if you are in the narrow body your CP is afraid to defend you in front of anyone (think he is afraid of Srylankans from the tower)

Second The upgrade selections for the first 4 or 5 months of 2008 are SUSPENDED, yes read it and weep.

Makes sense they already have 60 + guys who fill the requirements, and they will not be able to train them in the remaining days of 2008.

So basically now the already "senior F/O" in the company is facing an extra 18 months flying with captains half of his flight time, and half of his language proficiency etc.......(dont want to hurt nobodys feelings)

and a new joiner as f/o with more than 5000 hrs is looking at a nice 6 years extra in the right seat.

just my two cents, and i think i am speaking the truth not just trying to put down an already ****y airline

[Smirnoff N21]

Hot topic upgrade, isn't it? Well so far I think everyone has received the selection letter after almost two months of waiting. Fair enough, it can be written off to the account of "political instability". Let's see chronologically 3,6 years and the selection is done, if lucky 4 years and upgrade becomes reality. As far as I understand no one has managed to be upgraded in just 3 years. Average time is 4 years since being checked out and released on the line. About a long waiting list, I really don't know how is that supposed to work. Possible solutions upgrades on A330 or B777 apart from A320. Another option is to outsource the upgrade training in order to relief the training department and the sims. Anyway, let's keep the readers updated. I can imagine whole lot of new hires and outsiders would like to know more, so do I.

Don't take it personally, take it on the rocks.:ok:

[Qatari515]

Pipe rider is absolutely correct.

Management, as predicted, is using the upgrades as a carrott to trick FOs into staying longer.

Almost 30 guys received a letter last month, saying they where selected for an upgrade interview but without an exact date. We all knows what that means....

18 guys where allready waiting before them....

2 upgrades/month.....

Thats 2 years waiting if you are allready selected.

If you look at the latest ops review, you know exactly why management does not see upgrades as a priority.

A330

223 Captains
177 First Officers

A320

112 Captains
090 First Officers

A300

52 Captains
35 First Officers

In 2007 239 pilots joined, of which 124 where captains, 105 FOs and 10 second officers.

So QR must be one of the only airlines with a huge surplus of Captains and a chronical shortage of ( especially experienced) F/Os. For a predominantly long haul airline, these numbers between Capt and FO should be exactly the other way around...

Which is why upgrades are the very very last priority...and why they are using carrots to keep F/Os here..

So observe and draw your conclusions.....:mad:

[Black Stain]

not just trying to put down an already ****y airline. 10th January 2008 19:35

Your words are nothing immoral Pipe Rider. The Goat is an Aviation Management Abomination and should have been aborted years ago.

Hey, maybe if we all work together we can choke it to death??

[Firsteagle]

join QR todays as CADETS , After 6 years, 6 X 900 hours per YEARS = 5400 hours ,that is the requirement to be elligible for command upgrade .
join QR with 6000 hours including 4000 jet time , you still have to wait 6 years according the seniority list to be elligible for your command ,you will get 11400 hours including 9400 hours jet time but the first one will get upgrade before you ;
So join QR if you have little experience ,and for SFO with jet time do not come here ,you will wait ages before be up:ugh::ugh:graded ,but this is on the second one that the Airline base the safety of the Airline not the cadets .
Where is the logic ,there is no logic for Experienced FO joining QR for his upgrade.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!better joining a low cost airline and come direct as commander ,much much faster :ok:
one more info ,QR will be in COLOMBO next week ,road show for direct entry captain 320 / 330 .
You are right upgrade is not a priority here in QR , Employing experienced FO and delay there command upgrade ,that is the priority for them !:D

[cavelino rampante]

Potential joiners coming to QR as First Officers need to realise the airline now has 60 aircraft, 800 Pilots and a long seniority list. If your only reason for joining is to become a Captain in 3 years it isn't going to happen, it will take you 6 or more.

Don't waste your time coming here if the left seat is what you want in a hurry. It will save you a big headache and hassle locating here, and save me a big headache listening to you.

SO DON'T SAY YOU WERE NOT WARNED.

[Smirnoff N21]

Apart from warning shots the latest news:
Some of the guys went already for the interview out of order. Nobody knows why? Good for them. The rest is waiting. Nobody knows why and how much longer. I guess the new CPT together with rest have to figure out something new or it just takes time to establish at the new place.
Don't take it personally, take it on the rocks.:ok:

[Ajax]

All this talk about command blah blah blah. Smart pilot doesn't care how many stripes on my shoulders, only how many zeros in my bank account.

So was it a bad move to come here because maybe I can go to Ryanair or Air Asia and get upgrade after 2 years, instead of waiting 4 or 5 at QR? Yay now I'm a Ryanair captain living in the most expensive country in the world (England) and taking home maybe £4000 a month after tax and spending 3/4 of that on rent and petrol, and working like a dog compared to long haul FO. Lucky guy, at least I got those precious 4 stripes though huh. Of course I'd like command but come on guys, look in the mirror and admit that FO/SFO in QR, is still a much better financial deal than capt at half the other airlines in the world. So to say to all these guys don't come don't come, because of uncertainty with command upgrade, it's not really going to impress them you know.

You also forget that many of these DE captains are age +60 guys who won't be here in 3 years, and many others will leave just as quickly as they arrived when they get a better offer back in their home countries, or wife gets sick of Doha.

Upgrade will happen when it happens, you can't know what will happen in 3 weeks time in aviation let alone 3 or 5 years. Same in QR as any other airline.

[piloton]

VERY WELL SAID!!!..... money talks BS walks:ok:

[Smirnoff N21]

It doesn't matter how many stripes whatsoever though sometimes it can save your life but let's put that aside. You're however entirely missing the point here, my friend. It's about giving the choice to the individual as well as respecting certain industry standards. Most of guys came over here for a purpose of money and career progression. Some of us do manage to enjoy their lives in one or the other way.
Now, giving the choice means clearly reveal a plan (non compulsory) saying that's the situation. Your number is 47 to go and we predict you'll start your course in 12 months for instance. That's it. It's up to the individual then to decide whether to stay or to pursue the 4 bars elsewhere.
By the way talking about greenback. The sooner one gets command the more 0000 will be on your account in the end. Thus command and money are correlated. For the time being guys are held in the dark for many reasons one of them is f/o shortage.
Industry standard is to have more experienced commanders than f/o otherwise the collaborative atmosphere is rendered somewhat difficult.
Very experienced and mature f/o are sometimes more obstructive than helpful cause they are frustrated thus resulting in possible tension and steepening in gradient. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Last but not least come over here before you start judging and then we shall see.
Don't take it personally, take it on the rocks.:ok:

[Capt.Tentacles]

Smirnoff N21, what you saying is that upgrades are happening? which fleet?

For now just on the "Push Back Tug"

Hope this info helps......See you on the "Left-seat" of the TUG......"Commander"

Happy Push Backs!!!!

[goatliner]

Smirnoff N21,

I greatly agree on some things you mentioned but nevertheless I have to get some things straightened out.

Firstly the money issue.If you are a senior first officer in Qatar flying A330
and you finally jump hoops and get :confused: ( on 320 of course ) you will take a salary decrease of 10% in exchange for 4 bars,a ****ty lifestyle and a ****ty route network.
Secondly, the day you pass your first linecheck on 320 you will loose your seniority in the company.You are now considered as a new joiner.The company tries to cover that by letting you keep your staff number but this number is not related to your seniority ( I know I will get a lot of **** for this line by the blindfolded "everything is fine first officers" in the company;we still got some of those).:eek:

Thirdly you will not get upgraded within the mentioned timeframe because Qatar is not interesting enough for somebody who has experience a FAA or JAR license or other choices. The number of captains applications outweigh the F/O applications ten times, so make your own picture.

Last but not least there is a problem with the experience gradient right to left, true.A first officer with 8-12000 hours that joined the company 4-5 years ago is certainly not very motivated after getting all these wrong promises and facing himself sitting next to a 4000 hrs ATR DEC on A330
babysitting him around the world.(Don't forget he is now more senior when you get your upgrade:confused:). I am not saying that every newjoiner in the left hand seat is weak or unprofessional but the numbers rised critically within the last 2 years.

So how does the company adress this well known problem? As always we try to keep the first officers concerned in line by letting them do their upgrade interview although there are already 60 plus candidates waiting for their training( from last years march selection on).
We are looking across the runway and there lies the solution 190hrs experience college graduates that we could put in the right hand seat of a A330( what a career- congratulations and not their fault to take it).
First 200 hrs F/O's are already flying on line so every captain flies as a trainer, qualified or not.
Marsalama collegues

RGDS G.L.

[Qatari515]

Sad but true.....


A very good way of putting this G.L.

I just hope somebody will FINALLY listen to waht people like you are trying to say...

TAke off the pink colored sunglasses people....QR is fooling you in every possible way imaginable!

:ugh:

[PIPE RIDER]

I Will give you a quick example;
2 years ago QR did not accept CRJ pilots, they did the interview a looong time ago and were not accepted,then they were called 6 or 8 months ago aprox. so in those 2 years a good amount of F/Os have shown very good skills, know the routes, company procedures,etc.. what for?? So they can become babysitters of todays DECs. When I am deadheading i feel safe depending on who is the F/O, many good guys I've flown with and will make excellent captains.

[Bat600]

I have to get something straightned out.:mad:

The management will keep you as first officer to solve "this well known problem" ... or ... to avoid increasing the problem??? :} :\

You have to raise your opinion to the management and show your FAA or JAA license and your logbook with your 12,000 hours in the right seat. (But try to explain it very carefull, because it is strange to have 12,000 flight hours and not being a Captain yet. I can imagine good reasons for that.) :=

After this you might get your upgrade on B777.:E

Marsalama, skilled and professional First Officer Goatliner :ok:

[Smirnoff N21]

The idea of upgrading people on 320 might be plausible from operational point of view but not realistic. It doesn't really matter which airplane to be upgraded on it only matters how quickly, isn't it. The problem is the queue on 320 and limited sim slots resulting in backlog of about 50 guys, if I'm correct. Even though the latest OPS review states ongoing 330 upgrades, we shall see. There's a widespread problem within industry called shortage of everything sims, slots, TRI etc. Again why not to outsource it? Why not to upgrade on 777? If QR fills the right seats on 330 & 777 with cadets then the senior guys won't see their upgrade in due time. Well, it only confirms the notion among them.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!! :ok:

[9.G]

Speaking of CRJ check this out.
Senior FO's: Please see details of rapid-upgrade contract below!

Domicile: Beijing and/or Xian, China (Working VISA provided after your arrival in China - any nationality can apply)
Total Compensation: $110,500 (net)
Minimum Guarantee: 90 hours
Contract Term: First contract: 2 years. Subsequent contracts: 1 year.
Benefits:
• Pay includes: Base pay: $6800/mo, Housing allowance: $1200/mo, bonus pay: $375/mo.
PLUS: $10,000 per year travel allowance
• Worldwide Medical/Dental insurance
• Life insurance and Accidental Death and Disability insurance will be provided
• 9 days guaranteed off per month
• 30 days personal leave per year
http://www.wasinc.net/employment.aspx

[loc22550]

What do you mean Goat liner...with the seniority....
What about your end of service benefit:

For Ex: you have been 4 years as an F/O here and than 3 years as a Cpt...(total 7 years) So if you resigned they will consider you have been working for Q.A. ..for 3 years only...i can´t believe this..But you never known here..????:ugh:
For the rest , fully right when you mention that a senior F/O on 330 makes more money than a CPT 320...!!!!!:ugh::ugh:Is This normal....????

[IcarusRising]

:ugh: I work in the region and was killing time scanning this and other threads when I came upon this thread and an amazing statement by Pipe Rider !...whom I think has been riding too many pipes !... otherwise he would not have made such a degenerate statement about Captains that he most likely had flown with. Pipe Rider yearns to earn command without having the basic knowledge that flying a modern bird professionally is a more about CRM and teamwork than being a Cockpit Diva ! which he and some of his friends seem to be... I pray that this airlines flight management and instructors would stop this pipe rider in his tracks before he endangers their customers lives.

Public transport is no longer a place for his kind...he needs to be directed towards Crop Dusting where he can earn quick Diva Command status!...and the sooner the better.:ok:

[PIPE RIDER]

Ups! sorry if i hurt your feelings, maybe just maybe I was not really clear, the difference between a DEC and the upgrades from inside the company is very different, WHY? because if you have been flying enough as you say and you have CRM, you know that we learn from the people that has been flying long enough in the region, on the particular type and will give you the do's and dont's. So if you add this to a high time F/O you will have a great CP. But in the opposite you bring a guy because he has more than 500 pic on a jet, and some other company took the chance with him, you will see the results that QR has had in the last two years, and just read again I have flown with excellent f/os who really deserve a shot in the left seat, they gave me my chance for comand looong ago my friend,

[goatliner]

Bat thanks for your concern and for your sure well-ment advice.
If the company and the chief pilots would not know about their employees experience I would follow your advice.
If I wouldn't be in QR longer than you I would follow your advice.
If I wouldn't know the final authority I would follow your advice.
If I wouldn't come from a big airline that would upgrade earlier I would follow your advice.
If I would not have a very clean record and would still believe them I would follow your advice.
If I would not be sick of every new joiners advice, I would follow.
No hard feelings but I have seen more good drivers leaving QR than other airlines have. What happened to all the staff numbers between 3000 and 24000. Very simple maths isn't it.

RGDS G.L.

[Black Stain]

BAT600,

Expatriots join Qatar Airways for a consistant narrow band of reasons. The most legitimate being unemployment without fault. e.g Collapse or imminent closure of home airline.

Many senior Goat First Officers share this common history, and are conveniently used by said Goat as baby sitters for DEC who join for more collourful reasons.

This being a fact, your comments do seem inappropriate.

Why did you join BAT? Please dont tell me professional excellence.

[Bat600]

Dear Goat First Officers

Don't be upset with reality. No one, nowhere, will never understand how an unhappy pilot or any other employee would remain on a job who do not respect him, do not give him any value, being only babysitters when they are supposed to be something else.

:confused:

And even more I will never understand why do you blame the DEC new joiners for your situation. What do you believe in your pink world? Only First Officers have professional excellence in the Goat Airline? Do really believe this new joiners would not accept to enter the company as Captain? Should they say to the company: No, thanks, I will not accept the job because you have lovely First Officers who believe they could be excelent captains?

:=

If you know "The most legitimate being unemployment without fault. e.g Collapse or imminent closure of home airline", why do you blame the whole group? You have a tendency to generalize.

:mad:

I will say again, don't waste your lifetime only complaining and blaming someone else. Change your life yourself.

:ok:

I still believe that IF the company could count on this excellent pilots, sure they would upgrade them and hire First Officers who needs babysitting. It sure is much more cheaper and safer.

:E

Sorry if I will not reply to you anymore. My poor babysitter is waiting for me to fly.

:oh: :ok:

[Qatari515]

BAT600,


you really have not understood anything what is going here, have you?

Being an LTC myself, I have seen the new DEC coming in.

First of all, I am 100% sure many of them have lied regarding their previous experience.

Second of all, even when looking at their experience I have been surprised many times that QR hired them as DEC!
Its a known fact by now that the recruitment team has been making huge mistakes in the past, only focussing only on DEC and forgetting all the rest!

Now it seems that they have cjanged policy. Recently large batches of FOs have been filtering through, all of them with lots of experience even in a left seat. They have been hired as FO A330! I evenmet a check airman B727, who has been hired as FO A330.


Without wanting to generalise I would like to see that in the last two years we have been hiring DECs who are not at their place in the left seat at QR. They are weak, have no backbone nor knowledge, they are NO Captains!

Once more BAT600, maybe you re one of the good ones, in which case you should not feel offended. If you are one of the weaker ones, I can understand your reaction.

But I surely understand the reaction of some of the senior FOs here. They feel bypassed, they truly feel they are babysitting during many of their flights without being given a fair chance!

And one more thing....

Hiring a DEC is 50% less expensive than training an in house FO to become captain.

Firstly: When hiring a DEC you only pay the TR
Secondly: With a DEC, some other company took a certain responsibility allready so QR does nottake any risk!
3Rd: There is a chronic shortage of experienced FOs on the market. A company as QR does find 2X more DEC than FOs willing to join!

So Yes, they do want to keep the FOs in the seats and hire DECs, because on the longer run it is less expensive this way than to have flights departing with two captains for years in a row!

:ugh:

[Two Dogs....]

BAT600: Aint nothing worse than baby sitting an arrogant liitle boy like you.

For the record, many of the baby sitters have left. They realized that grass roots team building and subsequent loyalty will never exist in Qatar. The Goat is a cheap Sweat-Shop. Import the labour, hold them down and make them work, work, work.... Let them go or push them out if they squeak.

"Pilots are cheap. I can replace any of you anytime". Now who said that at a pilots meeting a few years back???

The only fault of the baby sitters that have stayed is that of being gullible. That last six months of Goat management should be proof to all F/O that now really is the time to go. Dont waste the aviation boom in that rat nest.

[shneidertrophy]

At the moment, upgrades are bubbling along but at a very slow pace.

Until further notice, all upgrades will be done on A320 as that is the fleet with the highest need of Captains. The A330 suffers from a chronically surplus of Captains at the moment.

Besides that, it has been proven that upgrades on the A330 are causing a lot of bad feelings within the pilot community because there is no straight forward career progress plan in this company. People are being upgraded randomly and although a type of airplane should not matter to the newly upgraded captains, there are huge differences in lifestyle and remuneration!

So the only solution would be:


STOP DEC hiring
All upgrades are done on one fleet, in our case the A320
A clear seniority list is published on yearly bases, so everybody knows exactly when he/she can expect a fleet transfer or a promotion.
All politics and networking should be left behind us for once and for all!
That way, all is clear to everybody and no moaning is possible!

Utopia, I know, but maybe it will be like this somewhere in the future.

As general information, at the moment some 60+ First Officers are selected for upgrade and are in various stages of the process to command.

[Smirnoff N21]

Update on the upgrade issue:
A 330 guys are scheduled for their assessments flights.
A 340 guys are lagging behind.
All in all a very gradual processing.
Alas, no info revealed up to date as per maison habits.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!:ok:

[CEO PITA]

A330 ,340 ,320 guys going for intervew . Upgrade is going on only on A320 there is 62 waiting for training and A320 can accomodate only 2 /m so slow slow promotion !
A320 roster sucks and guy who is doing it is slow motion and short memory.

[CEO PITA]

Today confirmed new rules 5 y to upgrade . Waiting for CEOs approval !

[papyjo]

All but B....it!
This airline and its management are just liars.
Salary is average considering huge inflation (15% for 2007 and 25% for 2006), euro-dollar exchange rate, and amount of flying hours (850 to 900 hours per year with no more overtime!!!) and housing costs;
Crew moral has reached its minimum with MOST pilots willing to LEAVE, a lot actually leaving, at least those able to do so (sorry to say so but most third world countries pilots have no other choices and it has nothing to do with tech standards or personal or individual abilities).
On top of that, what drives each of us as human being which is motivation, progression and respect is completely disregarded and fooled:
-Captains have no more authority on fuel decisions (up to dispatchers) which was the only issue left to them in this airline.
-Worse than that, F/O have no future at all: Interviews still going on but the queue is now longer than the one in lulu supermarket on thursday evening: more than 60 holding in various stages but no training took place for the last 6 months!!!
They just call F/Os for upgrade, make interviews hoping that it will ease their "impatience" and that they will be kept on SBY for indefinite period of time (why should an FO resign while being so close to captaincy). WRONG!!
" you can fool some people sometime but you cannot fool all the people all the time".
The FO shortage will go from bad to worse. The 2 and 3 years old FO are getting more and more disappointed (5 years to upgrade will be official even if it is already the case:D).
The funny thing is that an unhappy FO will make an unhappy CPT. Majority of them will leave after 500 to 1000 hours:D
SO PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT JOIN QR: YOU WILL REGRET IT whether you are a CPT or FO. Go everywhere but Qatar.
You have many many choices:from far east to sand pit (EK, EY, Air Arabia..) to old europe, many airlines are recruiting and offering many more attractive points and packages than QR.
I even did not mention in this post AAB; no need for that as everything has been said and written about little big man.
Stay away from Tchernobyl!!!!!!
Five stars my .......

[Goat Liner]

You'd have to be crazy to join QR as an FO nowadays. If this five years business is true that means a new joiner FO is looking at 7-8 years before his upgrade by the time interviews, training etc. is complete. Thats getting close to what you have to wait at major career flag carriers.

We are very short of FOs... this isn't gonna help.

[papyjo]

You're dam bloody right my man Goat ! ! !:ok:

[Black Stain]

Rumour has it that a clever verse of reverse pyschological satire is planned by His Littleness to combat growing Goaty ridicule. Cabin Crew are to sing this simple song during boarding to the tune of "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow":

"We're taking you more personally,
We're taking you more personally,
We're taking you more per... son... ally..........

When you fly with The Goat! (clap, clap)
When you fly with The Goat! (clap, clap)
When you fly with The Goat! Hooray!!!"
etc.....


Crack a beer and give it a try, hope it cheers you up..... Black Stain

[v/s1000]

Ioc22550
Can you be one day little optimistic, it seemed you always nagative.

[loc22550]

V/S1000...me negative..??? no ..just realistic..! and i don´t think i´m the only one...
My last post here was regarding the salary, mentioning that a senior F/O 330 makes more money than a Cpt 320 for the same duty time.....is it wrong..???don´t think so!Is it normal for you...??just a question?
Please don´t hesitate if you have an answer....:uhoh:
Thanks.

[PIPE RIDER]

THESE FEW YEARS I'VE SEEN LOC'S POSTS AND HE SPEAKS ONLY THE TRUTH, SO V/S GET A GRIP AND RESPECT HIS OPINION, NOTHING:bored::bored: BUT THE TRUTH IN QR.

[Black Stain]

You think Loc22550 is negative?? Clearly you dont get out much.

Now I'm definitely negative. And why? Because there really isn't anything good to say about that small dusty latrine.

[CEO PITA]

A.Johar is the only person who has support from majority pilots and staff. He has good communicate skill and he has good sense for whats wrong and whats right. I hope he will be a good CEO in short future. God bless Johar and give him good health !

[A300Man]

CEO PITA,

What makes you think A. J. will be the next CEO? Two weeks ago you were telling us that S. K. was going to be the next CEO.

Which one is it to be?

A300Man

[CEO PITA]

New memos in QR !

Capt can not aske for anything except water before departure .
CSD is in charge of flight and will tell capt how much fuel to take .
CS can come and aske some safety questions to FDC and if we dont answer CS can issue us warning letter instantly .
Salia K has to sign F/Os upgrades after CEO becouse Salia and CEO are TRE and know how to grade people.
PO can demote any capt and make him F2 if he want.
Grooming officer will check capt and f/o and if they are not within Qr standards termination by grooming depertment.
F2 are not alowed to say good morning to FLt deck crew since that could be missinterpreted as respect and only person who can have respect from F2 is CEO ,Salia and PO s !
F/O have to help in service and we can have 1 F2 less on every flight so airline will save a lot of money .
CS can and must report at least 1 cap/manth for anything to be current as CS on type .
Finally every capt when recruted has STBY warning letter in his file just as help to short procedure becouse he will anyhow get it so why we wouldnt give him one at jojning !

[loc22550]

..in your new memos... i think i saw something like that...::)

"we are happy to announce you that due to the high inflation in Doha(the highest in the gulf) and the crash of the qatari riyal, your salary "decreases" on a daily basis, and so we don´t see any reason for a salary increase for this year.Thanks for your hard job wich may become harder and harder due to the shortness of our crew,as we are still investigatin why people don´t want to come to work here....":\
Qatar airways..taking you more personnaly...

[Black Stain]

For so long shrouded by idiocy, the true genius of CEO PITA is beginning to shine :O

[Valdemort]

He is GAY ... :p

[botaxgelo]

all u guys had familiar with "what to do" take it or leave it,halash:ugh:

[Smirnoff N21]

No upgrades since Nov last year have been conducted. Just starting right now at a VERY VERY slow pace. At least it's going on.....
BAD NEWS DEC are still taken even though official policy is not to take any....

Don't take it personally rake it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[CEO PITA]

GAY GAY GAY Valdemory GAY
Band band Valdemorty he is behind you !

[Valdemort]

UUUUUHHHHHH Mssssss;)

[papyjo]

PITA what's wrong with you?
And 40years old!!!!!!

[CEO PITA]

40 + / - same same !
Am waiting 1 y for upgrade .
Can you guys wait 1 more year ?
Who care any more !

[Flircat]

Hello there. It seems that lately the negative postings on QR have spread like butter on a hot pan, specially on what concerns UPGs. I have passed an inteview and have been given a choice to join QR as a F.O. A330 but also, "coincidentally", I have been given a letter of promotion to A320 Capt. from my current company half way around the world from Qatar.

The issue for me is monetary mainly, since in QR in the position offered I would make more than double what I would here as Capt. But off course life here is not as expensive although we pay taxes.

I am still young, mid 30s, and always with the will to go out and see the world, learn from cultures and people from that side of the planet which is another reason why I would be tempted to accept the QR offering. And obviously the chance to fly a great airplane (A330) which can take me to see all that, while learning more from the Captains I would fly with. A great experience all and all.

What to do is the question in hand as the deadline approaches to tell both parties of my choice. I know that most of the guys that write here post negativeness all the time, I don't see anything positive for joining QR now as a F.O., which makes me wonder about some positiveness ever being there.

What would your suggestions be? And do you think the DEC requisities will lower later on, since I would really like to go there sooner or later?

Thanks in advance...

[9.G]

Always!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take command and then the world is yours.
Don't take any chances with QR you will regret it.

[GixxerK5]

I was lucky in that respect that I got a command at age 28. I am now almost 50. I was in a similar situation were I could go as F/O on a bigger a/c or Cpt 737. I took the latter. I had friends that went for the F/O position on the BIG A/C. They were /F/O for 10 years longer then me. The situation may not turn out to be the same for you, but if you have 1000-1500 hrs in command on the A320 you are in a good situation to bid for cpt positions on A330 in many companys.

Good luck with your decision

[Smirnoff N21]

Flircat you don't sound like someone endowed with reason or ready for your promotion, I'm afraid. Perhaps it'd be the best for you to take f/o position for a little longer as any CPT wannabe worth one's salt would rule out that question. Money won't run away from you. For what it's worth, you wouldn't believe how many guys presently seating on stby ready to go for their command for half of what they get here.

No offence man.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Flircat]

Thank you both for the replies, quite useful. And yeah I have to agree with SNAM that Smirnoff is generalizing a bit too much since the conditions of the company I fly for are not know to him, but then again I didn't explain that originally.

Anyways I feel ready for the UPG, no doubt about that, and the company wouldn't have offered me it had that not been the case. The company is top notch in terms of qulity of aircraft and trainning. Safety is also a big part of the equation, and the people are nice, mostly. The only thing that has people thinking abouth leaving for a better future is the salary. To put this into perpective, a QR F.O. makes 2.5 times more than a Capt. here. Off course costs of living aren't as high here but we pay taxes. In short, savings would be bigger in QR.

That is waht has me thinking...

[loc22550]

Flircat...don´t forget to keep an eye on the inflation here..(14% for last year)...So who known for the long term what you (we) will be able to save here....expecially if you have family and kids...:confused:

[Smirnoff N21]

but I am not comparing BA to QR... of course not!I hope you don't, cause it's like Bentley versus Land Cruiser both good and reliable but the first one is a class of it's own. Speaking of which funny enough to see lots of Limo Bentleys around driven either by the owner himself or a cheapest driver you can find. Doesn't really look aristocratic at all.
One can see a blue blood without money and a motley horde packed with cash not only in Qatar but sometimes in UK too.
Anyway Flircat my advise don't change the horses in the midstream.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[togaluck]

Gentlemen, if you are reading this post, most likely than not, you are one of the many many QR F/O's who are extremely disapointed with the upgrade situation, if what you really want is rapid command, QR is not for you to the best of my humble opinion, at least not for another 3 years, it's true they have sent letters, but ask the recipients how long they've been in doha. most of them 4-5 years, and during those years there wasn't a shortage of copilots like now; I'm sure many of you know (and if you don't you will now) of the great opportunity going on right now at air asia, you can apply for a CAPTAIN position, if you meet the following requirements:

With Command Experience
- Total 4000 hours of which 1500 hours (P1) on MPJ equipped with EFIS/FMS or 2500 hours (P1) on MPJ/MPA.

BUT most important!!
you can apply to that captain position WITHOUT COMMAND EXPERIENCE
( a first in the industry to the best of my knowldge!! )

Without Command Experience
- Total 5000 hours of which 2000 hours on MPJ equipped with EFIS/FMS and 1000 hours on type A320 Family/A330/A340 or Total of 5000 hours of which 2500 hours on wide body aircraft equipped with EFIS/FMS.

at first I thought it was a rumour, but it is actually posted on airasia's website

http://www.airasia.com/site/en/page.jsp?reference=jobspilot

i have heard, now this one is a rumour, pay is about $5,500 per month and about to be rivised to $7,500 so, i know as a QR F/O you make more, have may or may not have better benefits housing allowance, etc, but what really counts is PIC (P1) time. I leave the rest to you.

[hairy plotter]

wow nice move I have to admit. That's really good old fashioned way of getting the guys. I'm sure you'll be flooded with applications it's also clear where AJ is going next. Cheap attempts to contain the exodus from QR.
Hope it's true for the guys cause they do deserve it.
Do grab it with both hands if you get a chance guys. This guys know how to deal with people. Godspeed, QR won't learn anything anyway.

[loc22550]

Poor SFO 330 who are doing their upgrade on 320,now they gone have a pay cut as well( as in Q.A a SFO 330 usually make more money than a CPT320 for the same duty time...!!!), add on top of that inflation, devaluation of the Riyal....:{

[Smirnoff N21]

Loc I'm not entirely convinced about F/O 330 making more than Cpt 320 but again nothing is impossible. Methinks, it's of no importance whatsoever, which aircraft will the one get the upgrade on. A320 renders you to be more often confronted with operational decision making necessity so much needed at the initial stage. In fact that's recommended procedure from Airbus. That'd be appropriate if the airline would only hire on the right, NO DEC.
Practically seen, from FO or SFO point of view, he only relevant question is HOW LONG? The answer is not less than 4 years if at all. If 330 isn't an option even longer. Conclusion anywhere at any point anyone gets a chance to move straight to the left, kiss QR good by. People would maybe prepared to wait provided their welfare is taken care of and their families are happy. It's just competition.

Latest rumour aired is about a pay rise apparently approved by the government, wouldn't hold my breath for it. As with 330 upgrades let's wait and see.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Firsteagle]

Storm aviation also is doing it, not only airasia !!!

[Hajj Man]

Flircat,

Stay at your company and get your left seat on the A-320. You will fly there for maximum of 2 more years and build good time in the left seat then you can have your choice of where to go in the world.

while learning more from the Captains I would fly with. A great experience all and all. :oh: :oh: :oh: :ugh: :mad: := :yuk: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Take these next two years in command and learn how to be a good captain. Also in the next two years, which will go very quickly, look around the world at places to live, lifestyle of expats, money and benefits, and then make a move in two years. If you jump now with only a few write ups here on pprune from people with stories of, I did this 15 years ago and my friend did this 5 years ago, you will kick yourself in the tail when you get somewhere and realize it was not the right move.

You will make both good and bad decisions in life but I think you should stay and build your command time and then move around the world in the left seat.

HM:ok:

[9.G]

to be put back into a picture. Yet another management team is on it's way.
What's that going to mean for us- god knows? Surely new policies e.g. airbus SOP, not to be excluded they might alter upgrade or transfer rules-who knows? Keep your eyes wide open guys. Don't think a deterioration is on the way-who knows? As we can see no one objects the allegation of continuously recruitment of DEC. DOES IT MAKE YOU THNIK? IT SHOULD!

[togaluck]

Take command as soon as you can.... it's my advise... even you get a paycut, you wont regret it. know that times are changing and there is a golden age for aviation on the rise, specially for pilots, china hasn't even begun to open the way they are planning to, mark my words "you will interview the airlines in the future for YOUR job" there are no pilots with experience in the world today, and there wont be any in the next couple of years... they are bleeding for us. I'm sure whatever you do, assuming you are half way decent, will get command in the next 5 years but if you can do it now? why not? remember its all about seniority. my 2 cents.

[togaluck]

btw, in my opinion no amount of management changes in QR will be able to change anything if the "big man" is still running thigs like he's running them, QR will start to hire billions of second officers and change the rules for them to fly as regular F/O's with regular captns which is good if you are a S/O, think about it... cheap labor, if you had low hours and any airline would offer you that , you would take it, so F/O situation solved. and in the mean time they will still hire DEC. to make up for the lack of experience in the S/O's .. upgrade QR 6 years! no way

[goldstar]

good news:ok: a lot of upgrading to be done this year. this is a fact. take this info from someone who knows. 4 a month is the plan starting soon.

hit the books

[goatliner]

Hey,

that's great news. That means 4 a month and the next interview group will only have to wait 18 months till they start their training.
That will solve the problem and get the cart out of the **** momentarily.

Best regards

G.L.

[Smirnoff N21]

4 per month=48 a year is better than before. Let's wait and see. So far very gradual and slow process. Some changes in the OPS might turn the afterburner on. Keep the finger crossed it's not gonna be tailpipe fire.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Qatari515]

The whole upgrade issue has been discussed during last week's selection meeting.

Interviews should be sheduled for April with those guys starting training somewhere in June.

How many trainings a month, which fleets to go to etc remain a big question mark!

Basically what happend was that management panicked when they saw the rise in resignations, they knew something needed to be done quickly but nobody really has a solid long term solution...

Only time will tell....


The whole ops part is a big mess, and how they will cope with this years airplane deliveries nobody really knows.

[Smirnoff N21]

They have to hurry up as interviews are scheduled. Last thing QR NEEDS ARE RESIGNATIONS EFFECTIVE IN JULY.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[loc22550]

..Better they hurry up with a dramatic increase of salary otherwise they will have to face a dramatic wave of resignation as our financial situation is getting worse and worse daily...Let´s be realistic....

[Hajj Man]

Anyone know if only upgrade on the A-320 or are they doing the A-330 as well?

I heard from one person that A-320 only.

Big Question is WHY? :confused: :confused: :confused:


HM:ok:

[Smirnoff N21]

heard it's due to surplus of Cpt on 330 fleet. Practically if one can go straight to the left after 5500K e.g. Wizz or Ais Asia and there's only 320 upgrade going on in QR, the question of to go or not to go is the one. The difference could amass up to half a year. All a matter of trust, I suppose.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[A300Man]

How many A300's are still in the fleet? I read on one site that there are now only 4 aircraft remaining (3 Cargo and 1 mainline). If so, what is the remaining aircraft in mainline (ABO? ABN?) and does anyone know where the others have now gone to?

If this is correct, does it mean that all the former A300 flightdeck surplus have now transferred to the A330 fleet?

Cheers. Thanks a lot.

[Smirnoff N21]

Interviews scheduled for end of April beginning of May. Good news.
Let's see 2,5 months for selection+3,5 months for evaluation flights+1,5 month for the interview. If QR keeps the pace we even might break the record and get it done before 4 years. An edge cutting event. Breakthrough in ME aviation industry.

Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[togaluck]

Now here's another "well Thought out solution" from QA.:confused:

I undertand that the company is bleeding for F/O's and even see the possiblility of low time pilots doing well on big iron, it has been done before succesfully; What blows my mind is, I know they have been doing interviews for @ 150 S/O's int he last couple of days and even know of observation flights of brand new (250 hours small C-152's) S/O's on the A330, and it seems most of them are comming the same way, while there are really experienced guys on the A320 fleet hurting for the upgrade on A330?? under any point of view it doesn't make sense, since the S/O's need 120 sectors to become F/O's ... and they're going to do it on LONG HAUL FLIGHTS??????? how long will it take? 5 years?? they will go from 1 bar to 3 on their uniform?? They could have been a little smart and upgrade the F/O's on 320 ( and tie them up with a ccq course 2 years or 15,000 usd, HELLOOO! RETENTION ANYONE????) and make them happy, as the S/O's would come in the 320 but NOOOO!!! it had to be all backwards!! like everything else in the goat!! haha!! etihad is hiring!!
very well thought !! cograts to the management!!

my 2 cents

[PIPE RIDER]

Why upgrades only on 320? Because some arrogant and short sighted (locals apparently) people complained because they don't have the hours to do get 330 command, but they couldn't see that if they had continued the 330 upgrade they will be captains faster....

Yes they will start conducting interviews on may(be), but a lot of people already selected has 30 + guys on top so that counts for an extra year on top of your 3 years, in less than 4 years? not a reality.

[Smirnoff N21]

Out of the dog's mouth, It's been decided to run upgrades only on A320 as a backbone of flight OPS. Don't think it's got to do with anything else. Simply new people new ideas about how to.... Supposedly 320-330 mixed fleet OPS should be introduced compensating 320 upgrades only, in case, it's been successfully implemented on training level. Sounds like a good idea to me. Time frame is 6-8 months for the scheduled once the rest's gotta figure it out themselves bearing in mind a boost of up to 8 per months has been set as a benchmark. 8 per month sums up to 96 a year that's an industry standard, I'd say, however it's gonna cost about a year to simply spool up the training capacity to reach that level.
All in all sound's theoretically not too bad at all. It remains to be seen, as usual, what the real picture will look like. The new guy faces a tough challenge to restore the credibility of flight OPS. Best of luck and hopefully the plan can be realized in full scope and won't be crisscrossed by politics and other none sense.
DOn't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok: