UK/Europe making radio calls to ATC

[rotor67]

Question for the UK/Europe pilots from across the pond....

In the U.S., we make our calls to ATC using the aircraft numbers(ie: 378EC(3-7-8-Echo-Charlie) initially, and use the last 3 digits to answer or reply after that to ATC. With the aircraft #'s as: G-JETU, are you using: Juliette-Echo-Tango-Uniform, when making ATC calls?

Thanks in advance!

Rookie from the across the pond!
Rotor67(Rob)

[Agaricus bisporus]

First call is always full callsign, ie, for G-ABCD, Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, (with type given afterwards), and remains full callsign thereafter unless ATC give the lead and shorten it on their reply, which in this case would be Golf Charlie Delta. Note the Golf is always given.

"Jetranger 44 Alfa Bravo" is the US way,

"Golf Alfa Bravo Charlie Delta, a Jetranger..." is the UK way

and

"Helicopter Golf Alfa Bravo etc" is the mark of a UK PPL coming the big I Am...

[md 600 driver]

BISPORUS

b****ks




"Helicopter Golf Alfa Bravo etc" is the mark of a UK PPL coming the big I Am...


That was the way i was taught in the uk to prefix with helicopter all callsigns

i was also taught to use the prefix copter 44 alfa bravo when training in the states

[rotarywise]

That was the way i was taught in the uk to prefix with helicopter all callsigns
Then you were taught wrong! That phraseology is not compliant either with CAP413 or ICAO Annex 10

rotor67, correct RTF phraseology for the UK, if you're really interested, can be found in CAP413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=247)

[albyskoons]

Then you were taught wrong!

What about Chapter 4 section 3 (3.2.1 and 3.6.5) ??

[HeliComparator]

md600 -have a little courtesy. I don't doubt that you were taught that way but I also have been taught some strange things from time to time...

rotor67 the "bible" is a UK CAA publication which you can find at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

Chapter 2 page 8, in giving some examples, says

"* Piper GBSZT Piper ZT
* The name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of aircraft model, or name the aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to callsign."

In other words you can do it that way if you wish. I have about 9000 hours rotary and I have hardly ever used it - normally as Ag Bis says, its the full callsign followed by the type (normally the ICAO type as you would put in a flight plan - eg my EC225 becomes EC25 in ICAO-speak) on first contact.

In reality I doubt ATC will be particularly concerned either way, though "helicopter" doesn't give them much useful information - the type of helicopter (which gives them an idea of cruising speed) would be more useful I suspect.

HC

[500e]

calling helicopter and call sign is a help to ground station and other aircraft,
helicopters do not fly the same pattern and can appear where plank drivers least expect. so giving them a little more help does not hurt.:suspect:

[JTobias]

I was taught to prefix the word "Helicopter" to my Aircraft registration and i traditionally do this when I'm flying rotary. I have never been pulled up over it when talking to ATC and regardless of whether or not it is standard or acceptable phraseology (by CAP standards) I personally think it immediately allows ATC to identify the possible capabilities of the aircraft type (not the pilot!) quickly.

Once I've initiated contact I usually abbreviate to Helicopter XX afterwards.

So there!

[HeliComparator]

500e - yes, however "helicopter" could be a Bell 47 doing 65kts or me in my 225 doing 150kts. That's why its better to give the type.

On reflection I think I say "EC25 helicopter" after the callsign which caters for those that don't know what an EC25 is as well as those that do.

Prefixing with "helicopter" is a bit of a PPL thing.......(waits for howls of protest!)

HC

[HeliCraig]

Well I was taught to use Helicopter as a prefix; it helps ATC understand that I may not need to use a runway (approach low level to XYZ boundary) and I will be conforming to rotary circuit direction. Its a shortish word which provides ATC / AFIS with useful information so I can't see the harm in it.

I was told of a PPL doing training into PMI who failed to tell ATC he was a helicopter and was routed to follow taxi ways back to parking area ( a la fixed wing) until he told them and requested otherwise - when they let him cross directly to where he needed to be. I bet he wishes he had used it in his RT.

As for the PPL thing, as a PPL I obviously find it slightly demeaning that we get comments like the above - luckily though, I will survive. However, having heard many commercial pilots (some with full ATPL(H)'s) on the RT the only time I can recall it not being used is when the callsign (an ICAO call sign, not regn) was known to the ATC as being rotary. (HeliMed 53A, Sloane 001 etc).

Which leads me nicely back onto the original topic... while we do all use the full registration in the UK / Europe, abbreviated when ATC do so; those who have one are entitled to use a call sign issued by the CAA (but registered with ICAO); although this is normally commercial operators on Air Operators Certificates in the same way that fixed wing airlines do.

HC.

[HeliComparator]

Helicraig - I intended to be more tongue-in-cheek than demeaning. But you have to accept that on average professional pilots do tend to sound more professional on the RT than PPLs, if only because on average they will have had far more exposure to the environment (ie more hours).

Don't worry, PPLs are better at some things, for example PPLs tend to keep a good lookout whereas professional pilots are either reading the paper of in deep discussion with their colleague about just how dreadful their lot in life is, how bad their pay is etc:}

PPLs are taught to avoid the avoid curve, whereas (some) professional pilots spend their flying lives in it:confused:

I could go on but...

HC

[perfrej]

In my country, Sweden, the problem is partially solved by the fact that the registrations of rotorcraft lie in a range of letters. SE-Hxx or SE-Jxx are helicopters. Still, most pilots start with full call sign, the abbreviate (on initiative from ATC) to Sxx, which effectively removes the helicopter tell-tale. So, most pilots say "Helicopter xx" as abbreviation. I beleive that it is good to distinguish between planks and rotorcraft. They do behave differently in the air, not just because of speed differences.

Just my 92 cents worth...

[heliski22]

And for what it's worth............

I elected many years ago to begin my first call to any ATSU with the word "Helicopter....." as a method of flagging to all on frequency that the aircraft is rotary. Once acknowledged, the subsequent message includes full type information as required.

Nobody told me to do it, I didn't see it written down anywhere, I just thought it made sense at the time and I still do.

Happy New Year!!

By the way, Helicomparator, how do you keep your teeth from falling out at that speed in your 225? :-)

[longtime lurker]

Chapter 4 Section 3 of CAP 413: Aerodrome Phraseology for Helicopters

3.2 Helicopter Callsigns

3.2.1 Aircraft callsigns to be used are described in Chapter 2 paragraph 1.8. Provision is made for the name of the aircraft manufacturer, or the aircraft model, to be used before the aircraft registration (in full or abbreviated form). If considered appropriate, the pilot or ATSU may replace manufacturer’s name or aircraft model with the term ‘Helicopter’ where this may benefit the ATSU or other aircraft (see phraseology examples paragraphs 3.6.4 and 3.6.5).

Table 2
Full callsign___________________Abbreviation
Helicopter G-ABCD______________ Helicopter CD
As well as being incorporated into CAP 413, you can also see it as a stand-alone in ATSIN No 48 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATS048.PDF)

Hope that helps.

[HeliComparator]

heliski - maybe I don't hence :} - but in fact the 225 is smoothest at max continuous power, which is around 145 - 155 TAS (165 on descent on a good day) depending on mass.

HC

[Phil77]

Just one little thing: "we" in the US of course don't shorten our callsigns in the second call to the last 3 letters just like that. However, if ATC shortens it we can too.
Not that I am always that perfect :rolleyes:; never got shot down because I shortened mine right away either. ("Helicopter N123AB be aware there is a Gulfstream N4AB also on the frequency" - or something like that)

[mylesdw]

When I was doing my PPL I found the radio work one of the most difficult areas. I would carefully study the book and listen to the tapes until I was pretty sure I knew what I should say and what the ATC would say and so on but as soon as they knew you were a helicopter they would treat you quite differently!

[Variable Load]

perfrej, can you please be very careful what you say as HeliComparator is present.
Just my 92 cents worth...
The use of 92 can have totally unpredictable results. Any other number is preferrable, but perhaps 225 cents would have been perfect. Otherwise we could have yet another thread on helicopter certification. I don't know if I can take any more....... :{ :{ :{ :{
HC, see you soon ;)

[HeliCraig]

HC (the other one),

Didn't have your post in mind when I made the "don't demean PPLs" comment - was thinking of the "big I am" comment earlier; it sort of got my goat on what was already a bad day (for other reasons).

Your other comments are 100% spot on though - we all do different things better as a product of the environment we find ourselves in and the experience we have. Its just nice to think we are all looking out for each other (in more than the visual sense!).

Anyway, subject to Wx I am flying this afternoon so I shall be using the whole "Helicopter G-XXXX" RT!


HC.

[perfrej]

Thanks for the tip... It'll be "my 120 cents' worth" this week as I am in the middle of the type rating on the EC-120. Damn thing spins the wrong way and has tons of car-parts in it...

/p

[Sulley]

Helicomparator take your point but not everyone flies a helicopter like a fixed wing. Therefore your relative speed for the purposes of an approach may well be more relevant in your environment, the fact that you are IN a helicopter is more relevant in others.

[Oogle]

As a non-European or UK pilot flying around in this airspace regularly, I have never been picked up from saying "helicopter" before my callsign (which I do everytime). In a couple of instances it has actually helped me in getting an airways clearance sooner than the fixed wing guys.

I personally think that alot of controllers don't know the differences between aircraft types (helicopter v's fixed wing).

Anyway, who cares if you say "helicopter" before your callsign? I don't!

But you have to accept that on average professional pilots do tend to sound more professional on the RT than PPLs

:=:=:=

[biggdav]

I was always taught, "helicopter G-bbbb, R22 on the ground bla bla bla". Controllers first and last name is stress, if i can make life easier for him by letting him know im a helicopter.
Anyway he is usually more worried about the 3 Boeing 747's that are landing and the othe 4 lineing up for t/off, than the wee r22 flying about.

[Foxy Loxy]

Sorry Oogle, but I'd like to know why you think this:I personally think that alot of controllers don't know the differences between aircraft types (helicopter v's fixed wing).

ATCOs receive lectures at the college on aircraft recognition, and skills are further enhanced once out in the field. The manufacturer's name in the aircraft type given in the initial call tends to give away whether the a/c is F/W or heli! Even the greenest rookie will know that "Augusta" will mean a helicopter, and that "Cessna" will denote a F/W.

The only one I can think of from the top of my head that can cause confusion is "Bolkow."

OK, so I'll admit to being a bit defensive. But seriously, I am interested in why you hold that opinion.

Foxy

[md 600 driver]

foxy
a link to cessna helicopter http://www.commercemarketplace.com/home/CollectAir/cessna.html
and agusta makes the tiltrotor and motorbikes too and i think they also made aeroplanes also
you may have used the wrong aircraft to explain
also bell made aeroplanes as did md, boeing,and a few others

are you an atco?

[Bravo73]

Even the greenest rookie will know that "Augusta" will mean a helicopter, and that "Cessna" will denote a F/W.

Actually, Even the greenest rookie will know that "Augusta" will mean a golf course, and that "Cessna" will denote a F/W.:E






Sorry. Couldn't resist. My bad. :O

[Oogle]

OK, so I'll admit to being a bit defensive. But seriously, I am interested in why you hold that opinion.


I hold that opinion because I have been asked on many occasions:

"Are you a helicopter?"

I am not being disrespectful to you as I assume you are with ATC. I have all the respect in the world for you guys and think you do a great job.

The original question in this thread was to ask if you should add "helicopter" before your callsign.

[2896]

Actually IMHO using the aircraft type is not much use to me since the only fixed wing aircraft's type I know are the Boeing and Airbus range yet when they are 4 miles off I still don't know which is which therefore IMHO it is of more use for ATC to say to me cross behind that fixed wing/ traffic / helicopter.:E

[rotor67]

Thanks again for all the info guys, it's much appreciated!

Someone had said they always use there full call sign, unless ATC shortens it to 3 letters/numbers. Once I've made my call sign, and acknowledged by ATC, I always use my 3 digt abreviation from that point on, and always identifying myself as a helicopter before the call letters/numbers(never had a problem yet).

Along time ago, I was with my CFI, and we were departing an airport, and just about ready to switch to the OH-2 frequency. When an S-76 was inbound to the airport, and he was quite expressive, by saying Sikorsky, blah blah, 5 miles out inbound for blah blah.....we then asked ATC, ROBINSON...blah blah...Frequency change? Kind of funny! :)

Another question though! I've flown out of Van Nuys in So Cal for quite awhile, busiest G.A. airport in the US. On many occasions, I would fly parralell to the runway, as I'm inbound for the taxiway, with F/W at my side on final for the active. It's no big deal, as you're keeping visual separation. We're also crossing midfield at 900 AGL, and might have a F/W underneath you, or taking off. Still no big deal, as you're keeping visual separation. From an pilots POV, once you've made your call, and intentions, and make your last call at a mile inbound, ATC pretty much leaves you alone, because we know the ins/outs of coming into VNY. ATC might occasionally tell you of F/W on the taxiway, don't over fly the F/W, etc., but they really leave you alone, it's quite nice! 1-6 Right is a great DVD on VNY, just a plug...I digress!

Now that I'm flying out of TOR, where the Robinson factory is, ATC treats us like a F/W, which bugs me! I'm downwind abeam, and about 1/4 mile or less laterally from my spot, and there's a Citabria ahead of me 1/2 mile or so, and I'm number 2 to land....WHAT? I've asked if I can turn inside of the Citabria, to the taxiway, and always denied! Plus they make us terminate at the numbers, and then air taxi to parking....well I just waisted 6 minutes, or I just an extra point of time in....depends on how you look at it, eh! It's a different experience then VNY, which I'm still getting use to!

Sorry, a little word-e today!
Rob
rotor67

[Foxy Loxy]

Without wishing to go too much further off-topic I'd just like to add one or two thoughts before I leave this thread.

Yes, I am an ATCO.

MD600 driver - thanks for those links. I learnt something new today! Perhaps I didn't choose the best examples. However, that said I haven't seen or heard of them in common use in the UK in 11 years in GA. I don't expect to see them soon either!

I haven't researched thoroughly, but I believe Boeing helis are usually denoted by a more distinctive generic name on the RT.

McDonnells - yes, I concede that point! I generally can tell the difference from an RT call (or FPL) but maybe that's come with experience.

Oogle: I hold that opinion because I have been asked on many occasions:

"Are you a helicopter?"
I notice from your profile you fly a Bolkow ;) Puzzled if that happens if you get that question when flying the other types! Hey ho.

Finally, personally I'm not that bothered if a pilot prefixes their callsign with "helicopter." I don't write that down on the FPS, I write the type! Just my own opinion, that. Either will work for me.

Safe flying to all of you!

Foxy