Air Law Question - From PPL Confuser

[Greg2041]

Can anyone confirm that 'C' is the correct answer to the following statement? I thought 'A' was the correct option.

Q28: An Aircraft that is registered in the UK when undertaking an international flight, must have on board a certificate of airworthiness that was issued by ............. (a) and validate by ....................(b)

A - The UK (CAA)............................any ICAO contracting State
B - any ICAO contracting state.........any ICAO contracting State
C - any ICAO contracting State.........the UK. CAA
D - The UK (CAA)............................the UK. CAA

EAL28(C)
Certificate of Airworthiness to be in force. 8(1) Subject to paragraph (2), an aircraft shall not fly unless there is in force in respect thereof a Certificate of Airworthiness duly issued or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator, and any conditions subject to which the certificate was issued or rendered valid are complied with. (2) The foregoing prohibition shall not apply to flights, beginning and ending in the United Kingdom without passing over any other country, ANO Section 1 Part 3 Page 1

[Greg2041]

Just to explain the reasoning behind my answer. If the aircraft is registered in the UK then I would have thought that the certficate of airworthiness would have to be issued by the UK. Any contracting State could validate the certificate, as part of Article 33 deems that such a certificate would be recognised as valid by other States if the document is equal to or exceeds the ICAO requirements. Your thoughts appreciated!

[llanfairpg]

The Cof A could have been carried out in another ICAO country(by a maintenance organisation approved by the CAA and in accordance with BCAR's) but that C of A must be validated by the country in which the aircraft is registered.

For instance Cof A carried out in France but validated by CAA for a British registered aircraft, so answer C is correct.

Different contrating states have different ideas about air worthiness requirements which is the reason if you import an aircraft you may have to make mods as required by the new state of registration.

[IO540]

That's a really obscure trick question. How many G-reg planes have a CofA not issued by the UK CAA? The usual procedure when placing a plane on the G-reg is to have an Annual done and then you get a CAA CofA.

How many maint organisations outside the UK are approved by the UK CAA? That's another obscure factor.

Anyway, with EASA the answer is different already.

[bookworm]

You need CC1944 Article 31

Certificates of airworthiness

Every aircraft engaged in international navigation shall be provided with a certificate of airworthiness issued or rendered valid by the State in which it is registered.

I think that makes C the only sensible option.

[Greg2041]

I appreciate your comments 'bookworm' but why would that make 'C' the only sensible option bearing in mind the question says that the aircraft is registered in the UK?

llanfairpg your knowledge astounds me and I am sure you are right although my text books seem to have missed out this valuable bit of information. I can now see why 'C' was the correct answer.

However, I0540 says with EASA the answer would be different so............. which is the right answer now?

Go gentle on me as I am just starting out and trying to wade my way through my Christmas books before I learn to fly later this year.

[IO540]

Greg, don't worry about it - you just need to pass this crap. No need to actually know the details. You will be flying a G-reg with a CAA CofA and with a UK issued PPL that's about the end of it :)

Bookworm is usually right on everything, but I suspect that exam question is pre-JAA i.e. pre-1999.

[Greg2041]

Okay, so this type of question shouldn't come up in my PPL exams then? Strangely, it was in the 2003 'PPL Confuser' book. I also have the new OAT books (huge) and Pratt's 'Q&A Simplifier' along with his other books. Which most accurately reflect the exam questions? I forgot to add the 'JAA PPL Secrets Guide'

[DX Wombat]

With all those books it sounds to me like you are just learning the answers and not the subject. (If I've got that wrong I apologise.) It's NOT a good idea to do that. Learn the subject then use the Confuser to check your level of knowledge when you think you might be ready to take the exam.

[Greg2041]

Definitely wrong. I read a couple of chapters (usually at least 2 text books) and then test myself using the various questions. I am a little concerned that some of the posts suggest that the Confuser contains quite a few inaccuracies and that it is out of date. I'm just hoping I can spot them. Just wondered which Q&A book most accurately reflects the current exam syllabus and is most like the actual exam.

[PompeyPaul]

I would plumb for C.

Remember that the world of aviation is fast moving and so people on here will confuse you with EASA rules that are coming. I've also failed an exam by answering a question that was is deemed incorrect, yet the CAA brought out an advisory advising what I did to be correct. The exams are all written some time ago, stick with what the book says.

It feels right that you could get a CofA issued in any state (That's what JAR is all about) yet the CAA still want their dosh and will hit you for the validation (that's what the CAA is all about).

So I believe C would be the correct answer.

[Greg2041]

BUT......................

Bookworm says that

“You need CC1944 Article 31

Certificates of airworthiness

Every aircraft engaged in international navigation shall be provided with a certificate of airworthiness issued or rendered valid by the State in which it is registered.

So as the aircraft in the question is registered in the UK, surely it must follow that the UK must issue and validate the certificate making ‘D’ the correct response or has Article 31 been superceded.

[mm_flynn]

Bookworm's quote says Every aircraft engaged in international navigation shall be provided with a certificate of airworthiness issued or rendered valid by the State in which it is registered.]


So as the aircraft in the question is registered in the UK, surely it must follow that the UK must issue and validate the certificate making ‘D’ the correct response or has Article 31 been superceded.
No,
The And should be an Or. In the context of this question, a G-reg aircraft on an international flight must have either
1 - A Cof A issued by the UK (no need to render valid)
or
2 - A CofA issued by an ICAO contracting country and rendered valid by the CAA

[IO540]

You are right mm_flynn but the Q says "An Aircraft that is registered in the UK" and I think that is what throws most people, who reasonably think that this means it must have a UK CAA CofA, and 99% of the time it would have - especially as the normal registry transfer procedure (e.g. from N-reg to G-reg) involves an Export CofA from the source authority and then a new CofA from the accepting authority.

[bookworm]

The And should be an Or.

Exactly. The C of A will normally be issued by the UK CAA, but in principle it doesn't have to be, hence C.

[Greg2041]

Okay nearly there. My last question for today.

It would appear that any contracting State can validate a certificate, as part of Article 33 deems that such a certificate would be recognised as valid by other States if the document is equal to or exceeds the ICAO requirements.

So is this right?

[llanfairpg]

It would appear that any contracting State can validate a certificate, as part of Article 33 deems that such a certificate would be recognised as valid by other States if the document is equal to or exceeds the ICAO requirements.One of the problems you can involve yourself in is going to deep into the requirments to pass the exam, which I think you are doing.(that is not a criticism but an observation)

Yes, any ICAO contracting state can (not must) validate the C of A if the document equals or exceeds the ICAO requirements but we are not party to what requirements each ICAO state requires nor do we need to know. What we do know is the British CAA will not approve any maintenance organisation unless it has been inspected and found suitable and that any maintenance carried out by an organisation is carried out to British Civil Air Worthiness requirements. This is regardless of where it is. Note some ICAO countries have bi-lateral airworthiness agreements.

If I could give you an example, I bet Zimbabwe will not be too bothered about a C of A issued in the UK but I bet the CAA would not just accept one of their C of As, what do you think?

I would be very interested to know of any other queries you(or anyone has) have about the Confuser, I have the 6th edition (which we use) 2003.

I can see you are taking a thorough approach to the exams so do not be put off by people saying it is all a load of crap and its not neccessary.

The authorities are charged by goverment to have a duty of care to ensure pilots meet minimum standards. We should not only be grateful that our standards are higher than a lot of countries, we should be proud of it.

[S-Works]

Greg, don't worry about it - you just need to pass this crap. No need to actually know the details. You will be flying a G-reg with a CAA CofA and with a UK issued PPL that's about the end of it

You know I am not sure I agree with that sentiment. You don't have to be a walking encyclopedia of aviation facts but I think a responsible pilot should know this stuff.

[IO540]

I think a responsible pilot should know this stuff

Should know exactly WHAT?

A pilot should know he needs a valid CofA, other valid papers, and that the country of issue of his license needs to match the country in which the plane is registered and this gives him worldwide VFR privileges. Then, if he has an ICAO IR issued by the same country, he has worldwide IFR privileges too.

The really obscure issues raised in this thread are not understood by the vast majority of UK maintenance shops, as I well know.


I bet Zimbabwe will not be too bothered about a C of A issued in the UK but I bet the CAA would not just accept one of their C of As, what do you think?


Depends on the purpose and circumstances.

If you have a Zimbabwe PPL and are flying a Zimbabwe reg plane, then you can fly it worldwide and nobody will question it. This is what ICAO gives you.

If you flew it to certain other African countries, the residents will make you into soup or stew but that is not because they don't like your CofA :)

You will have absolutely no problem flying it into the UK - unless the CAA suspects there is something dangerous about it, in which case they have the power to stop you going anywhere; again this is ICAO.

There may be situations where a UK maintenance organisation might refuse to accept a modification done to a plane by a Zimbabwe maintenance shop, but this happens regularly anyway and is a common revenue raising scheme (scam). The other day, one of UK's best known engine rebuilders told me they cannot accept parts from the USA with 8130-3 forms because they are sometimes forged. A bit rich, given the history of this particular outfit when it comes to forging documents (regulars can guess who it was).

Certain African airlines are banned from flying into the EU, for alleged (and probably true) crap maintenance reasons. But that isn't because their CofAs are duff. It's because their engines sometimes fall off, or nearly so...

So, things are rarely what they seem to be in practice - if you really want to dig deep.

[Greg2041]

Yikes - it gets worse................


One of the problems you can involve yourself in is going to deep into the requirments to pass the exam, which I think you are doing.(that is not a criticism but an observation)


That's me 100%. Looks like I am in for a rough ride!

So it is universally agreed that the answer is C?

Many thanks for all your posts.

[Greg2041]

Ahhh. I have just read the latest OAT book (2007) which says that a C of A MUST be issued by the State of aircraft registration. I'm assuming this is wrong then?

[S-Works]

Should know exactly WHAT?

A pilot should know he needs a valid CofA, other valid papers, and that the country of issue of his license needs to match the country in which the plane is registered and this gives him worldwide VFR privileges. Then, if he has an ICAO IR issued by the same country, he has worldwide IFR privileges too.

The really obscure issues raised in this thread are not understood by the vast majority of UK maintenance shops, as I well know.

I guess you are from the anything more than 75% and you worked to hard camp whereas I am from aim for 100% camp. Horses for courses.

I think that as aviators we should strive for the highest standards and make an effort to understand how the rules that effect is work rather than just accepting the minima or looking for endless short cuts confuser style.

Just my 2 cents.

[mm_flynn]

Greg,
In real life the questions on the PPL exam are not going for the arcane they are testing basic knowledge. And the basic knowledge of the law is what you need to fly. Encyclopedic knowledge is desirable for pointless PPRune debates only ;)

Read the books that teach the subject, not the ones that just have questions and answers. Make sure you really understand why the law exists (i.e. what its point is) and you will be able to fly safe and legal. (and equally true for aircraft performance, weather, flight planning, human factors).
When in real life you need to know if you can fly an N-reg with a Zimbabwean CofA, validated by the FAA in Ireland on a JAA licence - ask! (and then read the referenced material to make sure you understand)

Bose - IMHO at PPL level time would be better served really understanding the whys and wherefores of 'normal' circumstances rather than the various things that can or can not be validated across different countries. In particular, a lot more focus on why VMC visibility requirements exist and the fact that the UK is unique in the IMC/VFR/IFR/VMC/night/day muddle we have might pay dividends in safety and international harmony.

[IO540]

I guess you are from the anything more than 75% and you worked to hard camp whereas I am from aim for 100% camp. Horses for courses

That's bull, bose-x, and you know it. A cheap swipe at a lot of work I have done which you know all about but which I don't advertise on pprune. Elsewhere you have written that you would not have known how to fly airways if I had not written up details of Eurocontrol route planning, etc.

The CAA/JAA syllabus is full of really esoteric questions. It should concentrate on really important day to day flying stuff.

[S-Works]

Yeah I know, just bored and soooo easy to get you to bite....... :p :p:p:ok:

[bookworm]

Actually it's a bit more complicated:

Art 8(3) In the case of:
(a) a non-EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom the certificate of airworthiness ... shall be a national certificate of airworthiness;
(b) an EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom the certificate of airworthiness ... shall be an EASA certificate of airworthiness issued by the CAA.

This implies that the UK doesn't validate a foreign C of A for G-reg.

Nevertheless, answer D doesn't make a lot of sense. If the C of A is issued by the UK CAA, it doesn't need to be validated by the UK CAA. Altogether, a rather bad question.

[llanfairpg]

If you have a Zimbabwe PPL and are flying a Zimbabwe reg plane, then you can fly it worldwide and nobody will question it. This is what ICAO gives you.Yes and I believe 'cringe' is a British word without parallel in any other language?

Reminds me of a Chinese Airline that many years ago were having enormous problems tracking VORS in the UK, the controller was getting more and more exasperated and tension was high till a yank pressed the button and said.

"How the hell did they find Pearl Harbour!


GREG--please post any more probs you find on the Confuser please, I need to know!!!!

[IO540]

The Chinese never did find Pearl Harbour - that was the Japs.

As for tracking VORs, that story must have been from decades ago. No airliner actually tracks VORs (in Europe) these days, not enroute for sure.

[llanfairpg]

Er sorry I meant Japs--looking in my log book our airline last tracked VORs using VOR receivers 12 years ago. We all still track VORS its just that its via the FMS or FMGS and the lat and long of the VOR position.

But all a bit off thread and pointless