"hold short" instruction

[richatom]

Maybe I missed this in training but I have never understood exactly what the ATC mean when they ask you to "hold short". Does it mean hold for a short period of time, or does it mean hold short of the holding point. And how short is short?

[Dr. Evil]

If an ATC instruction of "hold short" is being issued to you ,e.g. today (31st Dec) and you don't hear anything else, it means you're not moving until next year :} or least until ATC tells you otherwise.

Hold short of a runway means stop before the CAT I/II/III signs/marking at the holding point. The aircraft must not pass the line! A fingernail passed the yellow line is deemed to be a runway incursion and you're in big trouble with ATC (reporting action).

Always if you're unsure = ASK :8

PS. Happy New Year, hope you have moved by now :)

[londonmet]

Dr Evil,

Just a small point. I believe hold short means the runway holding point. Also the same as the CAT 1 holding point.

Don't hold short at the CAT 2 or 3 unless the say other wise/LVP's etc.

L Met

[Fly Through]

I would believe if a runway is involved then a controller would use a designated holding point with its alpha numeric code. ie. Romeo One etc. Personally I only use hold short when there is no official holding point, " hold short of apron alpha" etc.

[2 sheds]

In the UK, it is defined in the Radiotelephony Manual:

"Stop before reaching the specified location .
Note: Only used in limited circumstances where no defined
point exists (e.g. where there is no suitably located holding
point), or to reinforce a clearance limit."

[Dr. Evil]

Oops, too much champagne already... :\

Well, I'll try again:

Normally the aircraft will receive taxi instruction to the runway in use holding point via a specific taxi route (no hold short instruction necessary, unless the taxi route will cross another runway at which ATC might require a "hold short runway xx" instruction). The clearance limit in this case is the runway holding point at the CAT I holding point (only CAT II/III when so instructed most likely during Low Vis conditions).

Other times ATC will instruct an aircraft to hold short of a taxiway or taxiway-intersection due to traffic, or awaiting parking, or just because they can....

Back to the champagne.... :\:\

[2 sheds]

Dr Evil

I don't know what you are on but it is not illuminating the discussion. The man asked what it means.


Richatom

It means exactly what it says in CAP413, which also descibes its application.

2 s

[richatom]

Thanks 2 Sheds for the definition. I wish controllers would therefore use it as it is defined! There have been lots of occasions where I have been cleared to such and such a holding point, and then as I get near to it the ATC tells me to "hold short". Well since I was going to stop at the holding point anyway I am always left wondering whether he means something else!! I've always just taxied up to the cleared holding point and waited, which has never got me into any trouble, but I have often wondered what the point of the instruction was, and whether I was missing something crucial!

[Spitoon]

richatom, casting no aspersions on your competence, perhaps the controller has used the phrase as it is defined i.e. to reinforce a clearance limit.

[richatom]

Perhaps you are correct, but if there is a clearly defined holding point then why not just say "hold at X" instead of "hold short at X"?

Perhaps the "hold short" instruction should be used only when there is no defined holding point?

[Voel]

2 sheds, are the CAP's available in electronic format. Used to have a copy of them, but was many years back when I did my training at Gatwick

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

CAP 413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF) is the first hit when you google for it...

[2 sheds]

Richatom

Sympathise entirely with your last two posts. As the meaning of "hold short" is "stop before reaching the specified location", suggest you should query it if no location is specified!

2 s

[MaxReheat]

'Perhaps you are correct, but if there is a clearly defined holding point then why not just say "hold at X" instead of "hold short at X"?

Perhaps the "hold short" instruction should be used only when there is no defined holding point?'

Completely agree with you. A certain large UK 'northern' airport uses 'hold short' liberally and clearly niaw the CAP definition (and also shows little compliance with the new ILS phraseology, I should add).

[Neptune262]

Perhaps you are correct, but if there is a clearly defined holding point then why not just say "hold at X" instead of "hold short at X"?

Perhaps the "hold short" instruction should be used only when there is no defined holding point?I believe this is coming from the last safety push with regards to runway incursions.

If it is obvious that the aircraft is slowing down for the holding point then I doubt the controller would say anything - if however the aircraft does not appear to be slowing down to stop then the controller will probably say it, or should re-iterate the hold command.

I agree, however, that "hold short of holding point X" and "hold at holding point X" should mean two different things!

"Hold short at X" doesn't seem to make much sense as the word "of" should be used in a hold short command - i.e. "Hold short of runway/taxiway XX"

[RustyNail]

i have always used a holding point as the clearance limit, if one exists.

e.g. "ABC, Taxi to holding point Alpha rwy 26L"

Holding short I only really used when taxing from A to B which involved crossing another runway.

E.g. "ABC, taxi to stand A23 via taxiway C, hold short of runway 26L"

If someone has been cleared to a holding point and seems to be taxiing towards it rather quickly, I might reiiterate the clearance limit by saying "ABC, confirm to hold short of rwy 26L" I cant think of any other time to use "hold short" apart from on the taxiways as has been covered previously.

[WhatUMean]

i have always used a holding point as the clearance limit, if one exists.



I think this is the best option always, Hold Short in my mind is a bit woolly, doesnt really define a point, or exactly where you want someone to stop. or some i suppose could even translate it as "the HOLD will be short".

[MidgetBoy]

If you're told to hold short of something, just make sure that you stop before the lines or runway/taxiway signs.

[RadarRambler]

and there where it could become confusing, the CAT1 hold or the CATIII ones? to me a specific point should always be used "A clearance limit"

[slink]

From what I understand, in the UK it should be used as already stated - personally if there's a holding point designator, I use it (hold AT D1). If there's not, then I may use "hold short of U" - but if I can I'll also give a reason, such as "to allow your marshaller to enter ahead of you". Fortunately, at PH we have plenty of hold points, so the example above is usually the only one used at the entry to the GA apron.

There does seem to be a frequent element of european, and definitely US pilots, who will read back something like "taxi to D1, hold short of runway 24", or "hold short of D1", even when I've given a "hold at", so perhaps it's more commonly used in the US and some parts of Europe?

To me hold at D1 is definite, hold short of runway 24 is, well...how short???

[TATC]

the only time I have heard "Hold Short" used along with a holding point is where an aircraft is needed to cross an active runway.

Ie - BAW123 taxi to hlding point A4 via Taxiway A, then later on when the aircraft is approacing A4 "BAW123 at A4 hold short of Runway 03". This would be intended to remind the pilot he is approaching an active runway. it is meant to be a help in preventing runway incursions.

[2 sheds]

If it really is considered necessary to reinforce the clearance limit, would it not be so much better just to specify "...hold at A4" ?