Light Aircraft crash in Scotland

[Ian Brooks]

BBC News 24 are reporting a light aircraft has crashed near Selkirk and that there is one fatality

Ian

[HeliCraig]

More from the BBC news web site here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7165231.stm

[fisbangwollop]

Just heard the sad news though sketchy at the moment......In the course of my work I occasionally speak to a microlite type aircraft that is operated from a farm site at Midlam Farm close by the accident site...., this is quite a remote site and radio coverage is often poor,my thoughts go out to family and friends as we await further updates and any news.

[fisbangwollop]

More details here
http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/news/Pilot-dies-in-light-plane.3628634.jp

[Chequeredflag]

This is horrible, and I particularly don't like them having to leave the poor pilot there overnight.

This has been a bad few weeks, and for the first time ever, my wife has just stated she does not want me to go flying anymore.

[frontlefthamster]

It's been a very bad year for fatal accidents in the UK and fatalities. :sad:

Act on your wife's suggestion and your chances of being hurt or killed in an air accident diminish enormously. :\

[Chequeredflag]

Just a knee jerk reaction on her behalf - she is very supportive really.

[machel]

for the first time ever, my wife has just stated she does not want me to go flying anymore.


CF, this accident is a terrible tragedy, but doesn't your wife realise that you're more at risk on the roads than in a light aircraft? It's just publicised much more when it's an aircraft.

I know your wife won't want to see it this way just now, but we all take calculated risks every day, in all walks of our lives. With our aircraft, we take much less risk - because we prepare far more thoroughly for flying than we do for just about any of the other "hazardous" activities of our normal daily lives. My other half has given up trying to dissuade me from flying. :\

None of us know what happened with this poor soul in this accident and I feel very, very sad for his family and friends.

[machel]

Just a knee jerk reaction on her behalf - she is very supportive really.


I've just seen your reply. I'm glad she is supportive of you. :ok:

[DX Wombat]

CF, please try not to be too upset about the pilot having to remain there overnight. He or she won't know anything about it. If that were me, heaven forbid, I wouldn't want anyone to be put at risk trying to extricate me, or any of my family, in poor conditions.

[Cusco]

What are 'whins' ?

(Southern reporter report)

Cusco

[MIKECR]

'whins' - bushes

[MIKECR]

'gorse' bushes to be more precise

[quilmes]

Whins are gorse bushes.

By way of background on a bad day,
please see Wallace Shackelton photograph of Midlem airfield at;
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image7113.html

[Pilot DAR]

Please give the maximum credit to rescuers, I've done this many times. It can be very troubling to have to decide if a person is a patient or a victim in a moment, at the time of arrival, and then do the perfect thing to care for them. The ways in which each are properly treated are just about opposite. Once you've made your decision, you have to keep on that path, even though the details of the person's condition will become more clear after a few minutes. It's extra difficult when you have one of each, and have to explain this to the patient.

Rescuers have an unpleasant task, and aircraft accidents can be particularly difficult, as they can be in amazingly inaccessable places. sympathetic thoughts for the pilot, and a warm thought for rescuers and investigators doing their best too.

Pilot DAR, also a volunteer firefighter

[rosti]

Wonder if he flew into the power lines close to the western boundary of Midlem or into one of the two large radio masts further west?

In which case both this and the recent midair over Leicestershire could have been avoided if all aircraft had been fitted with Flarm. It costs around £350 and can be easily fitted even to microlights - any 10-30v DC supply is ok, I use a model aircraft LiPo pack.

Flarm gives collision and obstacle warnings.

[fireflybob]

Flarm? More information please!

[airborne_artist]

http://www.flarm.com/

[drambuster]

Rosti

Wonder if he flew into the power lines close to the western boundary of Midlem or into one of the two large radio masts further west? In which case this could have been avoided if all aircraft had been fitted with Flarm

Are you sure you know how to operate your 'Flarm' device? Or in your experience do you find that 'masts' and 'power lines' are generally equipped with this system? :confused:

Update: actually reading the Flarm website in more detail I can see that the masts could have been located from the obstacle database function (rather than the air-to-air transmit ability). Are you suggesting that Flarm's database includes power lines, church steeples etc? It seems pretty risky to me to depend on this sort of system to keep you out of trouble at low level

[El Grifo]

Anyone have any updates ??

This is my old patch where I did lots of aerial photography, both from light and microlight aircraft.

I know a couple of microlight pilots from the Midlem area, but have lost touch over the last 14 years of "exile"

Was it indeed a microlight accident anyone tell ?

Sad day for the families.

Edited to add :-

Just spoken to my old contacts in the Southern Reporter who are about to go to press with the fact that the aircraft was a Zenair 601.
Visibility at the time was very poor.

The other information they supplied would be best witheld until families have been informed.

http://www.flycorvair.com/601.html

[fisbangwollop]

I understand the aircraft was a zenair GBVPL, I have spoken to the aircraft many times in the past as he operated out of Midlem farm, so I guess would have been well aware of all the hazards around.My thoughts with family and friends.

[rosti]

I can only speak for the use of Flarm where I fly in Switzerland.

At my homebase all gliders, microlights and rescue helicopters have it fitted. There is some scepticism amongst the 'Lycoming' flyers which is unfortunate.

Flarm is GPS based; all pylons, masts and aerial cables are in its database. Anybody can add new obstacles by sending their coordinates to the developers.

It can be linked to PDA devices such as Pocket FMS or SeeYou Mobile to give a map based display of threats with voice warning.

Fitting of Flarm is partially subsidised by aviation insurance companies in Switzerland.

[robin]

The BGA are looking at FLARM for the UK, but at the moment it is technically illegal to use it in UK airspace.

However, it is too soon to see whether or not a technical solution, such as GPS or FLARM would have made any difference to this case.

[gcolyer]

Poor vis + low flying + high objetcs = disatser waiting to happen (no matter how well you know the area).

Terrible tragedy, but there does seem to be quiet a few of these sort of incidents happening this year.

[IO540]

Flarm is GPS based; all pylons, masts and aerial cables are in its database. Anybody can add new obstacles by sending their coordinates to the developers.


You can achieve a more general GPWS function with a Garmin 496, which contains a terrain database produced by the space shuttle radar, supplemented by an obstacle database, and which is accurate to around 200ft for Europe. You get TERRAIN TERRAIN PULL UP type verbal warnings (which can be linked to the aircraft intercom) plus a little map pops up showing which way the obstacle lies so you can turn to avoid it.

I have one of these on my yoke; it has been tested pretty well against various terrain in Wales and elsewhere and short of actually flying into a few hills I reckon it does what it says on the tin. AFAICT the database is identical to the certified version used on the GNS530. And you get a pretty good aviation GPS, for ..... navigation :)

OTOH if one is flying at high voltage pylon level, all bets are off and one can hardly call that kind of stuff "VFR flight". The professionals that do that sort of low level flying (S&R, power line inspection, etc) AFAIK fly dual-crew and they use the 1:25k or 1:50k O/Survey charts - I have used these and similar charts and they are mightly difficult to use while flying single pilot. They also use helicopters so when the cloudbase reaches the ground they land, have a pee and unpack the sandwiches :)

The BGA are looking at FLARM for the UK, but at the moment it is technically illegal to use it in UK airspace

Why? An active (radiating) device might be but a passive GPS based one cannot possibly be illegal.

[frontlefthamster]

I think the poster is referring to the garage door problem... :bored:

...some have suggested that the part of the radio spectrum that FLARM uses is dedicated to remote controlled garage doors and the like, and that its use is therefore outside what's permissable under the WT acts. When I looked into this briefly, it got very boring very quickly. :rolleyes:

Personal opinion alert: I don't buy the whole FLARM idea; if you want technological answers then only TCAS and Mode S will work in the long run, and science will get the weight and cost down in the medium term. :ok:

[NorthSouth]

The BGA are looking at FLARM for the UKVery useful. TERRAIN TERRAIN PULL UP!:confused:

In my limited experience, looking out of the window is quite a good idea, and if all you see is grey, you obey the law and fly at 1000 feet above anything within 5nm as marked on your chart.

NS

[El Grifo]

Maybe you lot should be explaining this FLARM **** to the bereaved family.

[fisbangwollop]

Why is it that every time on this forum whenever an accident occurs people end up speculating as to the reason for the incident...........does anyone actually know if indeed this accident was caused by the aircraft flying into wires, radio mast etc???? I would suggest that this reasoning is left to those in the know...in this csae the AIB, in the mean time we should respect the loss of one of our Scottish aviation family!!!!

[frontlefthamster]

Grifo,

Maybe it's got nothing whatsoever to do with FLARM, or CFIT, or weather, and you might have the patience to wait for people who investigate these things to reach some accurate conclusions. :=

[NorthSouth]

Indeed. The local paper, the Southern Reporter, is now saying that engine failure is "the most likely cause", and that the pilot was trying to make an emergency landing when he crashed, but they seem to have absolutely no evidence for it.

NS

[El Grifo]

WTF hamster :confused:

At which point exactly am I jumping to conclusions sir.

[machel]

Fisbangwollop & FLH - I whole-heartedly agree. I was around when that light aircraft that departed Oban at Easter crashed. I saw it leave, and was 'phoned by a reporter afterwards for "speculation". I said nothing to the reporter - not even that I did see it leave. Because no-one can know exactly what happened and why, except those involved. As you say, it's best left to the AAIB.

[El Grifo]

I accept your humble apologies FLH

Speculation = smart arsing

Someone has died here in tragic circumstances and no amount of speculation or advertising of clever kit not on board, will do any good whatsoever.

El G.

[Rod1]

“no amount of speculation or advertising of clever kit not on board, will do any good whatsoever.”

I have to say I totally disagree. As a direct result of speculation on the recent mid air in the east mids I have changed my operating procedures. I could have waited until the AAIB report in 12 months, but I could have died in an identical mid air by then.

Rod1

[ACARS]

I was driving in the vacinity of the crash site yesterday (drove from Newcastle-Melrose) and the weather was variable. Before crossing the border cloud level was low with rain. After the border it had stopped raining, but there was localised poor vis due to low cloud.

[The Gorilla]

Pilots name released see here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7166393.stm

[Chequeredflag]

There will always be speculation amongst other pilots following aviation accidents, it's only natural. This is not due to some ghoulish behaviour, but borne out of a curiosity from others involved in the same activity.
Now, to speculate that the pilot was drunk or totally incompetant would be wrong, but I personally think through things that might have happened, and how I might best avoid such situations. I also read the monthly AAIB reports, again, not out of some morbid curiosity, but to try to learn from others sad mistakes.
I'm afraid, speculation of this type will always occur, though whether it should be aired on these forums is perhaps open to question.
FWIW, it happens (even more so) amongst the professionals over on Rumour and News, and there are always some that protest there too.
I also contribute to a boating forum, and when accidents happen, guess what, the same speculation occurs. That particular forum is likened to a sailing club bar, where such matters can be discussed openly without recriminations.

[frontlefthamster]

Grifo,

I didn't offer you my apologies, and I've no idea why you think I did... :eek:

If you read my posts here carefully, you'll see that I don't speculate... Nor do I make intemperate remarks about bereaved families. :cool:

Or perhaps you recommended that FLARM should be explained to the family just to keep their minds occupied? :sad:

Rob,

Care to share with us what you now do differently? :)

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

I’ll chip in with what I now do differently following the EMA midair.

I operate from a farm strip adjacent to a popular unofficial VRP. The climb out direction is often towards another very popular visual navigation feature. I will now consider other aircraft which may be in level flight, above and overhauling me.

I fly a slow aircraft (bird strike on the back of the wings etc), so almost everyone passes me. Until now in the climb out I’ve done the usual ‘lower the nose to check that you are not running in to some one / thing ahead’ without considering that I might fly invisibly up in to the path of another aircraft.

I’m not saying that this was the cause of the EMA midair, but it did make me think, which is always useful in aviation.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[El Grifo]

hamster, I can only conclude that you are either misreading my post or misinterpreting them.

I have no wish to discuss this any further.

[Tony Hirst]

Until now in the climb out I’ve done the usual ‘lower the nose to check that you are not running in to some one / thing ahead’ without considering that I might fly invisibly up in to the path of another aircraft.
Good point! The currently taught method for lookout in the climb is to zig-zig (as opposed to swerving) with a 15-20deg turn to one side and then 30-40 to the other and so on. The bank and the change of direction increase visibility, provides a clear view of where you will be going. I would think that the change of direction also reduces the chance of the collision and makes you more visible.

[llanfairpg]

When someone dies in an air accident it is tragic and everyone trys to be respectful but speculation about why and how is human nature. Perversely that speculation may save someone elses life. The EMA accident in particular has meant we have reviewed our procedures and part of that review was brought about from speculation on this forum.

It strange how some of the posters on here hate speculation but they seem to be the ones that seem to like 'flaming' and trying to belittle others.

[Chequeredflag]

When someone dies in an air accident it is tragic and everyone trys to be respectful but speculation about why and how is human nature. Perversely that speculation may save someone elses life. The EMA accident in particular has meant we have reviewed our procedures and part of that review was brought about from speculation on this forum.
It strange how some of the posters on here hate speculation but they seem to be the ones that seem to like 'flaming' and trying to belittle others.
LLanfair, I agree with you. It's unfortunate some are offended by the inevitable speculation that naturally occurs here after any aircraft incident. I personally do not consider it in any way disrepectable to the unfortunate souls involved, and God forbid, it should ever happen to me, then I would be happy for any such speculation to be rife if it assists other avoid similar situations.
I guess we are all different in our approach to these things.

[machel]

The problem with speculation is when it is in danger of becoming fact. Speculation is good as long as that is all it is... and it is made clear that that is all it is.

Speculation can be good when it is genuine discussion. As some have said here, it can lead one to think along channels where one wouldn't have gone had it not been for the speculation.

Some of the comments on this thread have made me think about how I do things - particularly with the comments on climb-out - and I will be changing the way I do things to reflect what I've learned here.

I was asked by officialdom to speculate on various aspects relating to an accident. I answered the queries as best I could from my own knowledge base. But, when my answers were read back to me, due to the way they'd been put into the written word, they were dangerously close to being stated as fact! I vigorously rejected that and made sure that it was understood that it was purely speculation - nothing more. No factual emphasis could be placed on it. I was particularly concerned that due to the way my replies had been phrased in writing, they could be interpreted as some kind of criticism of the unfortunate individual concerned.

That is a big problem with speculation. Speculation for itself is fine - as long as, as I've said, it is made clear that that is all it is, and that no criticism is implied.

As stated in a previous post - unless one was actually present, no-one can truly know what happened. However, the factual evidence uncovered in an investigation can lead to perhaps an informed guess.

[llanfairpg]

Speculation is good as long as that is all it is... and it is made clear that that is all it is.

With respect does it really need to made clear on here, surely everyone knows it is speculation?

[NorthSouth]

machel:unless one was actually present, no-one can truly know what happenedEven that doesn't necessarily give you a hot line to the cause, in fact it frequently takes you down a blind alley, whether based on eye/ear witness accounts, or what the pilot or pax think they heard/saw/felt.
NS

[llanfairpg]

North South an excellent point--6 eye witnesses--6 different stories! In fact do the Police not say if everyones story is the same they know they are making it up?

[machel]

With respect does it really need to made clear on here, surely everyone knows it is speculation?


Hopefully that is the case.

However, I have had experience of the press picking up on speculation and rendering it fact. And that is very hurtful to those closest to the individual(s) involved in the accident. None of us know who's logging on to this forum and reading the posts, and whether or not they have the intelligence to read and interpret the posts as they were intended - as an informal discussion and nothing more.

[llanfairpg]

However, I have had experience of the press picking up on speculation and rendering it fact.That will always happen, that is just the press, never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.

Years ago I had to fly to another country to identify the bodies of two pilots who had flown into a mountain. The press interviewed me and asked me if I had flown over the route that the deceased pilots took, I replied ,"yes".

The story ran like this

Chief Instructor flys route to see where pilots went wrong.

[frontlefthamster]

Llanfair,

The appropriate answer to that question was 'Which route I took to the site is not relevant; I am sure that the investigators will do everything they can to find out why the accident occurred'. :uhoh:

Or do you mean they mistook you for a 'Chief Instructor' (one of those daft epithets that the UK GA community thrive on)! :p

Ooops, [flame/OFF] :ok:

[DX Wombat]

The appropriate answer to that question was 'Which route I took to the site is not relevant; I am sure that the investigators will do everything they can to find out why the accident occurred' Hamster, Llanfairpg had gone to IDENTIFY the bodies of two people he KNEW so was probably rather upset. Do you really think it was likely to occur to him that someone was going to deliberately misinterpret something he said? His route to the airport at which he landed could so easily have passed over the location. Please try to use a little commonsense and think before you post such thoughtless comments.

[llanfairpg]

DX dont worry he has a problem we cannot help with.

You reminded me how upsetting that accident was but the most upsetting thing was answering the phone to a man that was crying, I will never forget his words.

Why have I just read in the paper that my son has been killed in a light aircraft?

[El Grifo]

hamster, you do not seem to have figured out this "peace and goodwill to all men" thing

Another not apology in the offing perhaps.

[frontlefthamster]

Very, very, serious and heartfelt post follows:

Yes, certainly no apology here. Just illustrating that if you know what you're doing, the media won't take advantage, if you don't, it's best to keep schtumm, and leave it to those who DO know. :\

I have utmost sympathy for the situation he was in, but he does set himself up for falls, doesn't he? :rolleyes:

Would you jump into the lion's cage at a zoo, and not expect to be mauled? Would you speak to the media, and not expect to be quoted out of context? :zzz:

No misery there until you want, as he did, to play the 'Woe is me, I was misquoted' card. :=

I spend considerable time counselling the bereaved, and I don't need lessons from you in peace and goodwill. How many bodies have you seen in the last three years? You could switch off your computer and go and see if the local branch of Samaritans needs volunteers (the answer is almost certainly, 'yes, if you can do the task'), or sit in high and splendid isolation pontificating piously about that of which you have no practical experience... You might even find, to your delight and surprise, that you're very good at something you thought would be enormously difficult...

llanfair, the answer to your direct and valid question is either that the next of kin had been informed but had not passed word to the family (and had not asked the relevant authorities for a delay on publication of the names), or the next of kin had not been informed and the press were having another of their spectacularly 'off' days, in which case (in the UK)there are avenues for complaint; albeit avenues which revolve around the premise that democracy relies upon free press, or some similar scenario.

[llanfairpg]

The above is a classic example of a post that occupies space but says nothing.

[frontlefthamster]

Oh, grow up. :D

[llanfairpg]

I did a long time ago, probably when you were still urinating in a cot.

[frontlefthamster]

The above is a classic example of a post that occupies space but says nothing.


and some words to keep the software happy

[Flap 80]

FLH Quote...If you know what you are doing the media will not take advantage. Absolute tosh. Llanfair strikes me as a person who knows what he is attempting to achieve and his initial post does not warrant the vitriol you offer. Your comments about the Samaritans is interesting considering your domicile is in France. Do the French have a Samaritans system or is it in your mind. I remember having to phone my own parents to advise them of an accident I had been involved with many years ago......Traumatic . As LLanfair says ,having an adult in tears is a trauma in itself. Its only the 2nd of January....destress yourself and recite the Serenity prayer...you must know what it means. Dont forget as a Hamster you will be aware of the trauma that the mid air caused to the relatives of the unfortunate pilots.
Keep it safe.

[sternone]

CF, this accident is a terrible tragedy, but doesn't your wife realise that you're more at risk on the roads than in a light aircraft? It's just publicised much more when it's an aircraft.
Oh, were did you get that ? In the books i read they say you are 7 times more likely to be killed in the air than on the road.. forget that bar talk you had in mind..

the good thing is that if you take CFIT/weather accidents out of it, we get a pritty good score in GA...

RIP to the person who died

[frontlefthamster]

FLH Quote...If you know what you are doing the media will not take advantage. Absolute tosh. :(

No, proper media training will prepare you very, very, effectively. Some Chief Constables would be well advised to book some; others have. :\

I am very well de-stressed (in fact, I wasn't stressed, which is even better). :cool:

And no, I never do 'prayer'. ;)

Oh, it's France most of the time... :)

The future Islamic Republic of the former UK at other times. :O

sternone: 'people' not 'person'. :(

[llanfairpg]

In the books i read they say you are 7 times more likely to be killed in the air than on the road.

There you are you see, reading books can be very dangerous.

[Sam Rutherford]

sternone: 'people' not 'person'. :(


- he wasn't alone on board?

[Flap 80]

FLH Unfortunately you have taken the bait hook line and sinker and in "not doing prayer" you have identified that you have no conection with the Samaritans. Have a Serene evening and dont let your blood pressure elevate!
Do you have any aviation connections? Certainly not light aircraft I wager?

[DX Wombat]

he has a problem we cannot help with.
So it would appear. Having said that, all Hamster's posts succeed in doing is demonstrating to everyone his/her apparently total lack of care for the feelings of others and the fact that he or she appears to believe him/herself to be perfect.
As a retired Neonatal Nurse / Midwife it often fell to me to inform parents that their much loved and longed for baby had died or that there was nothing further we could do for him or her. Being informed gently and sympathetically is devastating but finding out through the media must be doubly terrible and it is for this reason that the Armed Forces do their best to not release the name of any casualty until the next of kin has been informed. I would not wish this to happen to anyone. The fact that there are means of complaint available does nothing at all to ease the pain and distress caused by mistakes in being informed.
Llanfairpg, I'm sorry I reminded you how upset you had been but I know you realise that wasn't my intention.

[Contacttower]

Oh, were did you get that ? In the books i read they say you are 7 times more likely to be killed in the air than on the road.. forget that bar talk you had in mind..


I fear you may be right sternone, general aviation doesn't have a great safety record. :sad:

As far some of the other discussion on this thread, :yuk:.

It is always very sad when these crashes happen, and FWIW I believe the best discussion always comes after the report.

RIP.

[llanfairpg]

Llanfairpg, I'm sorry I reminded you how upset you had been but I know you realise that wasn't my intention.

Not a problem and I dont mind the Hamster having a go, I can rise above it and anyway I am sure he dosnt mean some of the things he says in the way it could be taken.

Just one lesson to be learned from my incident by the way, is never tell the meadia who the deceased are before you tell the next of kin, thats what happened in this case and it made the tragedy ten times worse.

[frontlefthamster]

Flap 80, I didn't claim any connection - I just suggested a route by which those who wish to spend some time helping others might do so. I do so within another sphere. :)

...and you lose your wager, I'm afraid: I'm currrent on light piston and medium jet aircraft. :cool: