What's really going on here?

[Colorfax]

Is the industry changing, and we can't see the forest for all the trees? Are we expecting what our fathers once had, in much the same way that switchboard operators watched transistors replace the console?

Where did our highly-paid specialized skills go when airbus introduced envelope protection? How can my collegues possibly earn more than the prime minister for dropping out of high-school at 19? Why do we keep raising the theoretical requirements disproportionally to the falling practical requirements in order to preserve our qualification (and earning) requirements? How does the 26 year old skipper of a 737 qualify as a professional when all he's done for the past 7 years is drink beer and watch HBO, study a bunch of multiple-choice questions till they're memorized and recall 3 or 4 memo-items from the qrh? Is there exceptional decision-making or judgement beyond the SOP's? Is there any (expect in a negative sense) relying on the days of old? What seperates the few bastions of professionalism from those faking it?

Does it really take more than carefull (using your finger) reading the checklist, qualifying your radiocalls, using eyecontact when briefing and memorizing your flows and qrh itmes? Perhaps spend a night reviewing your type CBT? Or if you're really keen, spend a night or two ploughing through the FCOM.

It's a lazy job, most carriers don't expect anything except your license and signature, and when the **** hits the fan once in your lifetime... you get away with completely fu(king it up because..well... "the **** hit the fan." (which isn't supposed to really happen, when all is said and done.)
It's sad, and it's over.

The pay is for lousy hours, working when everyone doesn't (including your wife and kids), divorce, hotels, cosmic radiation, death at 62, lack of "normal" friends and social incompetence in any setting outside aviation. You can't pull a guy off the street to do this? All the smart guys either went into IT or became engineers, while the rest of us went where we traditionally could. But the requirement for our "stick and rudder by the seat of your pants and balls while risking something" isn't there anymore. All we got left is a great nasal PA voice and a choice to either add 1500 or 2500kg of fuel depending on the dispatchers briefing. And of course the option of selecting HDG to fly around the red stuff on the WX radar of course.... but I'm sure Airbus is working on that. Not to mention the need to ask the purser for permission to take the empty 1A seat for your rest.....

The old guys will oppose me, the mid-life guys ignore me, and the young guys will regrettably agree.

It's over. My kid will be a dentist.

[Vortechs Jenerator]

Nice views though, EH?

[dontpressthat]

Chin up...:}:}

[fireflybob]

It's over. My kid will be a dentist.

I always say the test of any profession is whether you would encourage your children to enter same - I certainly would not! Colorfax is correct in that many things have changed some for the better, some for the worse.

As a generality what concerns me (even outside of aviation) is that more and more people seem to go through life without ever having "original thought". We like to kid ourselves that there is a "procedure" for everything but I would suggest that when the chips are down it's often original thought that gets us out of trouble.

[TACHO]

Theres no such thing as a 'good job'.... only that some jobs are better than others. Mine is better than most.

Good post by the way colorfax, think you hit quite a few nails on the head, but what do you see as the solution? if anything? As a 'young guy' as you put it I am inclined to agree.

Tacho

[Huck]

So... running a drill in someone's mouth all day will be so much more fulfilling?

I've got 4 kids. They can all be pilots if they want to. Fabulous job. I just got back from 66 hours in San Juan, PR, capped off with (the dreaded) visual approach to KMEM with all automatics off. In an MD-10.

I'm sorry - what's so bad about that?

Oh and I don't make more than W, but my captain does....:}

[SUPER HANS]

I agree with everything colorfax has just said. I've been doing short haul for over ten years now and just thought my hatred of it was due to being in a boring profession for too long, but no it's not just me! i've been working with some new fo's who've been doing low cost for less than a year and they can't believe how bad it is and how hard the airlines make you work. I'd never encourage anyone to be a pilot.

[Say again s l o w l y]

No job is perfect all of the time. Flying may not be the same as it was 40 years ago (what is?) but it's still better than working for a living.

I'm not flying thanks to the CAA medical department, but I cannot believe how much I've missed it. I have had times when I've hated flying and some of the cr*p that goes along with it, but at the end of the day it's what I think about most. Sitting in an office is boring, it doesn't matter if you are a lawyer or a data inputter it simply can't compare to hand flying an aircraft down to minima on a crappy night.

Unfortunately if you work for a company that makes you use the automatics at each and every opportunity, then the OP has a point.........:{

Flying is wonderful, monitoring is rubbish, even if it is "safer".

[fourgolds]

Its all been destroyed by one group of individuals ACCOUNTANTS !!!

Its all about money , never mind the passion and dare not ever ever consider the people. Previousy recognised as the glue in an organisation. Now just a series of accountable people or " fodder" .

I remember reading "nuts' the story of Southwest Airlines as a young man and being filled with hope as to how people could be valued and passion encouraged. Now I see a series of managers driven by a bottom line to make money no matter what. Penny wise pound foolish , smile up kick down ,beancounting nerds , who have never even heard of Ernest K Ghan or Richard Bach and who think Yeager is a financial term.

Ah well we can do nothing to stop it , or can we..........
Happy New Year Ladies and Gentleman.

[Mick Stability]

Knowing the accountants hate me gives me that nice little warm feeling when I walk round at -11 in the darkness. It also helps me when I stick on the fuel and say quietly to myself - :mad: your bonus.

When pilotless aeroplanes cost the same as an Xbox, I'll retire. In the meantime I see your beancounter, and raise you a spreadsheet.;)

[L337]

Where did our highly-paid specialized skills go when airbus introduced envelope protection?

I have landed an A319 at the max crosswind limit in severe turbulance, and it was far more of a handfull than the 737 in the same conditions. It was much more demanding of my flying skills than any conventional aeroplane I have ever flown.

Is there exceptional decision-making or judgement beyond the SOP's? Is there any (expect in a negative sense) relying on the days of old? What seperates the few bastions of professionalism from those faking it?


Well yes there is. Outside of the simulator emergencys rarely happen by the book. Multiple failures, contradictory symptoms, and a QRH/ Eicas that fails to cover what you have. You have to Diagnose correctly,and manage the situation effectively. and that can get very difficult at times. Especially in "new" aeroplanes.

Does it really take more than carefull (using your finger) reading the checklist, qualifying your radiocalls, using eyecontact when briefing and memorizing your flows and qrh itmes? Perhaps spend a night reviewing your type CBT? Or if you're really keen, spend a night or two ploughing through the FCOM.

Yes. Flying is mostly easy to do. Easy to do to a sorta average standard. If you want to be good than it requires real work and dedication. To be the best requires more than a bit of eyecontact. One thing being a trainer taught me was the guys who really shone in the simulator, really worked at it. Thought about it, listened, learned, practised, and then executed it. They taught me, I taught them very little.

It's a lazy job,
See above.

You can't pull a guy off the street to do this?

You cannot. Some people just cannot fly. And some that can fly cannot think and fly. To be a good pilot you need "capacity". And any guy off the street probably does not have that. A few will, but to be good, professional, and safe. You need aptitude, brains, and above all plenty of capacity.

Finally.. I fly because I love it.

Yes you are working when everyone doesn't (including your wife and kids). I have had the divorce. The crappy hotels, the the cosmic radiation etc etc. But just look out the window, smell the roses. It is still a wonderful job.

To quote Richard Bach:

"For pilots sometimes see behind the curtain, behind the veil of gossamer velvet, and find the truth behind man, the force behind a universe".

My view (http://digital-nomad.com/gallery2/main.php)

l337

[sevenstrokeroll]

Hi:

Yes, I agree with you. There are still times when the automatics won't do it, even in non emergency situations. I think of the 29 knot crosswind landings at KDCA for example.

Now, if THEY made airports with a giant circle of concrete, so you could always land into the wind, figure out an automatic taxiing gadget, we would all be out of business.

Stick and rudder skills...let me tell you, I heard from a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy that the airbus and boeing people were working on planes that could be flown by someone with 250 hours. Gee, I guess they got that figured out.

We've seen the reduction in piloting requirements (hours) and you can get a job flying a jet with 600 hours in the US....think about it. I worked at a place where the insurance company wouldn't let us rent a Seneca (small twin engine plane) to someone with less than 1000 hours!

If you want to be a barely average pilot...that seems to be fine. If you want to be good...that's up to you and I hope you are!

But if you want to be rich, don't be a pilot. Win the lottery. I still rue the day I turned down a job with apple computer to pursue a flying career. And it was way back when even the janitors became millionaires due to stock options

...

PS...dentists will be replaced by robots one day too.

[BoeingBoy]

Colorfax, you said..

The old guys will oppose me, the mid-life guys ignore me, and the young guys will regrettably agree.

No Buddy. You got it wrong. The old guys agree with you, the mid-life guys want to be you, and the young guys don't know what your talking about.

But I do, and I agree with everything you said.

BB

[llondel]

I don't know who said it, but "flying is easy, it's landing that's difficult". It may be that a lot of times the landing is not too difficult, but I wouldn't trust automatics to land an aircraft in a strong, gusting crosswind, or with a big hole in the side, or cope with the loss of all four engines, or do the world's longest glide in a commercial airliner. Have all the ILS, GPS, whatever, to make the job safer and easier, but it's still nice to know there's someone up front who will have a damn good go at coping with whatever the system designers didn't think of and get the aircraft from up there to safely down here.

[ARINC]

So... running a drill in someone's mouth all day will be so much more fulfilling?

I'm sure there's a pun here somewhere.......

[fingal flyer]

Colorfax
I agree with alot of what you say.I have been flying now for over 15 years am not yet 40 and am actually thinking of leaving aviation or at least the flying side.
I also have kids and hope eternally that none of them want to fly professionally.I certainly will never encourage them to go down that road.

[Jagohu]

Gentlemen,

For all of you who miss the challenge in your lives: come and do some ATC preferably at a busy center, you won't be bored for long :)

For the rest: keep flying as you do now - safely and professionally - and enjoy it :)

As for the kids, I wouldn't force them to do or not to do anything - their lives, their decisions...

Though the "smart guys" might have become IT pros or engineers, they'll always look up on you people, flying the planes... I don't think it works the other way around :)

Take care all of you up there!

[go-si]

Dear All.

Having worked in IT for many years, I look up with envy at the 737 with the orange tail approaching/departing Luton ....

Just wish I could have made the class 1 medical .... One of the best times had was sitting in a jumpseat into heathrow,


Si

[maui]

I guess Colorfax didn't get what he wanted for Christmas. Grinch.

[PVGSLF]

L337 - Nice pics. Sums up perfectly why we down the back still envy you so much. The view out the side windows just isn't the same. I sorely miss the days of flight deck visits and the chance to snap a few of our own "pictures through the thick glass".

[OliV2]

Colorfax - you sound like a thoughtful character. I am sorry you feel like that though. The grass is ALWAYS greener, that's for sure. I can assure you that many of us would swap with you in a flash. It may not be what it used to be, but it sure as hell beats sitting at a desk all day. I would love to take what is a private passion and make it into my profession. Bet I am not the only one either! Chin-up and think of people like me who dearly wanted to be in your seat but missed out. :( L337 - stunning shots. Thanks so much for sharing. What an office!

[GlueBall]

Nowadays, the job's ok if you're ego isn't too big; if you can resign yourself to the truth of just being a "driver" in a chauffeur's uniform. :eek:

[D O Guerrero]

All jobs eventually become routine and/or boring. It is, generally speaking, a fact of life.
I know one thing though, I'd rather be bored doing this than bored sat behind some desk somewhere wondering where my stapler is....

[OliV2]

Don't dis the stapler game....I routinely hide mine and then forget about for a few days. Hours of fun trying to find it again. You should try it some time......living the dream!:cool:

[zed3]

Jagohu.....same story in ATC , especially where you come from . The beancounters rule everywhere , money before safety despite all the blah blah blah justifying it .

[YYZguy]

L337 you summed it up nicely. After 16 years of flying and also being 2nd generation pilot in my family, I still love (and am proud of) this job. You have my vote sir.

[737drvr]

Why does everybody get upset just because somebody is telling the truth? We are in a profession where we get the most amount of money for the least amount of work (I know, bring it on) I love my job (airline), but honestly it bores me to death!

PS No I am not quiting, I am young (sort of) and I need the money

[basil faulty]

well I used to work in an office and in the last ten years I have done alot of different flying jobs, I am now a skipper for the orange mob and I love it, on a typical day I am responsible for the welfare of over 600 PAX, I DO make the decisions and I get to land the big toy anyway I like. And yes I agree with an earlier post that the 319 is the most challenging aircraft I have ever flown in turbulent max xwind conditions, in fact I would rather fly the Boeing again on those days.

But I would still do this job any day over the office job even if it paid me three times the amount.

[lowbypass]

"Where did our highly-paid specialized skills go when airbus introduced envelope protection?"- We can still fly the aircraft manually in raw data possibilities with engine out emergencies.

"How can my collegues possibly earn more than the prime minister for dropping out of high-school at 19?"- Because with the Prime Minister on board, there is a possibility he could RTO, he could (just before) V1 cut, rotate with an Engine fire, Evacuate, Emergency descent all these perfomed to profficiency.

"How does the 26 year old skipper of a 737 qualify as a professional when all he's done for the past 7 years is drink beer and watch HBO"- In these 7 yrs he must had done not less than 14 recurrents, some renewals number of and some number of refreshers, demonstrated to profficiency.

"Is there exceptional decision-making or judgement beyond the SOP's?"- Proffesionalism.

"What seperates the few bastions of professionalism from those faking it?"- Initial ratings, renewals, and recurrents. I know a quiet a number who could not make it...in the sim.

"It's a lazy job"- Yes, although it could sometimes get scaring or interesting.

"You can't pull a guy off the street to do this?"- NO, aptitude?

"All we got left is a great nasal PA voice"- Really?

"And of course the option of selecting HDG to fly around the red stuff on the WX radar of course...."- I would not fly through a CB...:E

"The old guys will oppose me, the mid-life guys ignore me, and the young guys will regrettably agree."- I am mid-age and I did not ignore you.

"It's over. My kid will be a dentist."- suppose he/she does not want to be one.

[fireflybob]

This debate reminds me of the adage:-

"Two men behind bars...one sees the dirt and one sees the stars."

[courtney]

This discussion has been ongoing since the Wright brothers. We haven't yet reached the stage of pilot less aircraft but we are getting there. Unfortunately, the majority of accidents are still down to pilot error, many avoidable with the correct use of, or better automatics. Who could object to 3D GPS for terrain clearance and approach flying, especially as we have had two CFIT incidents in the last month. Having retired from aviation after 38 yrs of military and civil flying I am disturbed at some of the standards in the industry, illustrated, for example by the accident investigation programmes on TV amongst other sources and personal experience. This range of abilities is of course typical of all professions, look at medicine for example. What is important is that pilots accept the inherant sefety of automated systems, accepts them and actively engages in thier development and use. The 'I'm a pilot and therefore must hand fly it' mentality has cost lives.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

My last type was not autoland equipped, so as a pilot, I did have to hand fly it; every second sector, on average. Then there are autopilot failures, weather conditions outside the autopilot limits, runways without CAT2 ILS (therefore no autoland).... perhaps I had better ensure I am in current flying practice?
In fact, given that many of the malfunctions that can lead to autopilot failure also cause severe degradation of the aircraft's handling, I had better keep practicing to try and increase my flying skills.
The automatics are tools we can use to let us control the aircraft more safely. The current generation are a long way from being safe enough to replace us.

[click]

Looks like someone got a new computer for christmas:ugh:

[courtney]

Indeed CB, there are still 'primitive' aircraft arround, but not for ever. The technology exists to make us independant of ground based aids and enable 'Cat 3' type approaches anywhere. As for the autopilots failing, in my experience, 14000hrs, never known. Engine failures, much more likely, but still rare and much safer if the automatics put the correct rudder in for you! Would have helped in the case of the 'aerobatic' Chinese 747. The sooner we can introduce devices to stop pilots screwing up, the better. That will obviously involve some sort of system to stop them running of the end of runways, over 36 last year.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Well in my slightly less than 14000 hrs I've had many autopilot failures from total loss to mode fails. F/D's not agreeing, or displaying total nonsense so to put all your eggs in the basket of autoflight isn't sensible either.

Pilots do make mistakes, but we do still need to keep our hand flying skills sharp. No "system" designed by a human is perfect, so we need humans to make up for odd stuff up.

[JW411]

I read somewhere in the past that dentists have the highest suicide rate of all professions.

[courtney]

Perhaps I have been flying modern aircraft, except in difficult landing conditions I have never had need to exercise my 'sharp' handling skills and cannot recall any incidents in my last airline of anyone having to do so. I can recount many incidents though, where it would have been better for all had 'Biggles' sat on his hands. We are looking to the future and the sooner the autopilots are engaged and disengaged on the runway the better, this will not happen until it is safe to do so of course which is not yet but hopefully in the not to distant future. Will make me feel a lot safer as a passenger.

[Say again s l o w l y]

The second that happens, I'll leave the industry for good. A fair few will be doing the same I wager.

Whilst you could argue that it is safer to have the automatics in all the time, we have a pretty good record here in the UK whilst allowing hand flying where appropriate. (He says whilst looking for a wooden object to touch!)

How safe is safe? There is always some element of risk that cannot be accounted for. Hand flying is not the biggest issue, CFIT still happens when "George" is in.

[courtney]

Those entering the industry in the future won't be doing so to be 'pilots' but systems operators whose purpose is to deliver people safely to their destinations not exercise their egos. Indeed the autopilot will not prevent you flying into terrain, but coupled with GPS / terrain mapping could do so.

[16024]

Ooh, there's some grumpy old Scrooges out there!
Courtney refers to 'I'm a pilot and therefore must hand fly it'
But perhaps that should read 'I'm a pilot and therefore must (be able to) hand fly it'
But I am off-thread (again).
I am one of the older ones, but started late, which gives me two unusual perspectives.
Firstly being relatively new to it all, compared to my age, I still have plenty of enthusiasm for new challenges (training, for example) rather than the increasing modern trap of: in at 21, command at 24, trainer at 26, management at 30, burnt out at ..? And try to achieve such a meteoric rise in any other skilled manual job!
Secondly, and this is perhaps the real point, having been round the block a bit, I have done some pretty crappy jobs. Some were poorly paid, some boring, dirty or dangerous. And occasionally all of those things!
So heres the thing: maybe someone should start a new thread.
"The worst job I ever did".
Or was that covered by Derek and Clive.
Don't supose anyone under 45 will know what I'm on about.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Courtney, you and I have very differing outlooks on this. I fly because I love to do it. Happily people are stupid enough to pay me to do something I love.

On the other hand, you seem, from these posts, to be devoid of passion for this business. Hand flying isn't about ego, but increasing your skill or at least not losing it by relying on complex electronics that could fail.

Brand spanking new machines don't fail that often, but most of the world still flies things that require a good look at the MEL before you go.
Things break and you may have to improvise. Thankfully, there isn't a computer system or software program that does that as well as humans can.

[mcair]

I'm another IT geek who always dreamed of flying. Got a private license and tons of hours...in MS flight simulator. Give my right arm to have my time over, I would have sacrificed anything to have your job.

Next time you're trudging over to the gate to go to work, be aware that there are many, many SLF's watching who would trade places with you in a heartbeat.

[odb]

It has become a button pushing job.... With the same benefits of tons of time from home, a wavering image of job security and a hostile public....It does get boring and the climate seems to be getting nastier in regards to management.. It was exciting for the first few years, but it lacks a continuing challenge, though that is a good thing, at least in an airplane...

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/364996/flying_the_unfriendly_skies_with_an.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/480165/flying_through_the_night_a_cockpit.html

[320seriesTRE]

i teach the boys to be as inefficient as possible!!! Heart the bottom line as much as possible. When we are treated as professionals again, and when the pay me accordingly, they will get what they pay for. Until then they get what they pay for

atb:)

[CABUS]

A men YYzguy:D Its is always sad to hear of people that couldn't pass the Medical and even sadder to hear of people that did and now wish they hadden't, sorry chaps! A happy flying new year to all of you:ok:

[GearDown&Locked]

Two different things in discussion: Flying Airplanes and the Flying Job.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't trade my current job for a job in an airline, unless it was on a flag carrier or similar. All the rest seems pretty awful, regarding free time and pay. I love my family too much for that.

Now, the flying bit is what really matters, and that's what drives so many people towards becomming a pilot; all in all it's a great challenge anyway you look at it.

In my very own opinion flying cargo should be more interesting than PAX all day long; freight dogs are a very cool bunch of people :ok:. It would be my natural choice, if I would be really desperate to become a professional pilot, and didn't mind working when everybody is sleeping or didn't care to have a social life, nevermind a normal family.

If I get to win the lottery, I'll follow J. Travolta's example and would travel the world, with the exception of the plane choice: A319 private jet would suit me fine :E

[spierpoint jones]

A real pleasure to read this thread and a lovely perspective that captures the real spirit of transition in our aviation lives. I for one agree with the humble essence of the editorial.
As for some of the Airbus pilots that may feel a smiggen offended about their skills, should not see this thread as an attack on them. I reckon they have not read between the lines and have missed the spirit in which it is intended.
It does remain true with some of the younger group of pilots ,if you ask them to mentally calculate a rate of descent to meet an altitude restriction without the aid of the onboard flight managment devices,the deep space mission to Mars is scrubbed. True, there are laws of physics that govern flight ,I just think the art is fadding like a water colour in the rain.
All the best
jones:cool:

[dazdaz]

Hi Guys and gals (pc correct):)

I get the feeling (reading above posts) you all sound so despondent...CHEER UP!!!! Guess most of your inputs are 'slightly' negative from the Xmas break and now back to work.

From a pax point of view, you get me from a-b, take the time when pax are disembarking (open flight door) to say hi "enjoy your flight" you'll be very surprised as to the friendly response......Most want to say thanks.

CHEER UP!!!!!!!!!!

ps. Unless the f/o has done a real bummer

[BerksFlyer]

Winter blues eh?

While the profession may not be what it used to be, if you were to tally up every profession I'm pretty sure Airline Pilot will still be pretty high up. Even with the automation decisions still have to be made and great responsibility has to be taken. While it used to be one of the best and most respected, it is now a good respectable job. Nothing wrong with that.

I bet Pilots aren't the only group of professionals to long for the golden days back, but I guess it's just progression and eventually (in the distant future I hope) the only jobs to be had will be servicing the robots that have taken every possible occupation.

Even after reading all these doom and gloom outlooks, it's not going to stop me from doing what i've always wanted and if your children have the passion like me, why stop them?

There are much worse things they could do, and having a goal is only going to have a positive effect on their education.

[frontlefthamster]

In due course we will see a fatal, hull loss, accident caused by two pilots demonstrating their inability to fly an aircraft by hand in slightly demanding circumstances (the clues are aleady there - have a look at medium twin jets flying on standby instruments in Europe in recent years). We won't see the non-accidents which this change in the industry has produced, but it will be a hollow excuse. :uhoh:

This is a VERY COMPLEX matter and one which goes unaddressed by industry and regulator alike. :cool:

Hell in a handcart? Yes, slowly and steadily, but in a manner symptomatic of the whole world modern man has created. ;)

What a fascinating topic for proper study... :sad:

[Hand Solo]

In due course? Take a look at the Gulf Air 320 crash in Bahrain.

[frontlefthamster]

Not quite what I was thinking, but a fair point... :)

[GlueBall]

How about the TAM A320 crash at CGH. Two captains, . . . but neither remembered to retard the No2 throttle [reverser inop] after touchdown. Temporary insanity? Or just total stupidity?

[AirwayBlocker]

This one is for Courtney.

I'm just curious as to what you would have all these pilotless aircraft of yours do when a solar flare knocks out the satellites they are relying on to navigate?

Remember one of the things keeping aircraft safe is something called redundancy. When one system fails another takes over. I see no redundancy in a pilotless aircraft.

Furthermore the flying environment is a highly dynamic environment. Do you honestly think that it is possible to program an autopilot to handle every combination of factors that could be thrown at it? As an example how do you think it would interpret weather radar returns?

How would it decide when and where to go in the event of it being unable to reach its destination? Remembering that weather is also highly dynamic. You seem to forget that pilots are not only there for their handling skills but also, and I would say more importantly, for their decision making abilities.

And lastly, when would you be prepared to send your family off on a fully automated flight?

[fireflybob]

This is the dilemma, is not it? Many lay people have this impression that everything is automatic! Great surprise is often expressed when I inform such people that 99% of landings are manual!

NASA established a long while ago that human beings are poor monitors of automation - if anything the automation should be monitoring the humans!

In my opinion we are decades away from fully automated flight with no pilots.

After arduous sectors (one comes to mind in the last year dodging all the CBs on the way inbound to a German airport) I often remark "And they think it's all automatic!"

[sevenstrokeroll]

all you cargo pilots...the first planes without pilots will be without passengers as well.

hmmmmm

[PJ2]

fireflybob;

This is the dilemma, is not it? Many lay people have this impression that everything is automatic! Great surprise is often expressed when I inform such people that 99% of landings are manual!

Yes, it is indeed. And the mythology does not stop with lay people. Such magical thinking can extend right into the upper echelons of management who may know a lot less about aviation and what keeps it safe than they do about marketing, managing share price and negotiating.

Everytime we bring false modesty to a conversation about our profession and what we do in the cockpit we do ourselves a disfavour. While being a professional aviator has had a very rough ride from the corporations beginning with the bean-counters and going all the way to the top in terms of a blasé dismissal of what professional aircrews do everyday for their employer, the skills, professional ethic and resources we bring first to our passengers and then to our company have not changed either in importance or in necessity. They are just hidden behind a veil of partially intentional misconceptions and a populace otherwise largely informed by television.

Once in a while in occasional cocktail conversations when the subject of jobs, salary and working conditions comes up I say, "airline pilots earn $100,000.00 dollars a minute but you'll never know which one. The rest is for free." The remark is of course intended to elicit comment and we go from there, often ending with a bit more understanding, at least until the glass empties and the eyes glaze over...Public support for airline pilots extends as far as "avoiding crashing" but without the comprehension of what that costs or how it's done. Ignorance can be forgiven but not pronouncement from ignorance.

In the end however, we need never apologize for the time off, the salary, (such as it is at the beginning of the profession), or what remains of the prestige and respect at least in the public's mind, (because it certainly isnt' elsewhere).

Automatic flight has been demonstrated with the B707 fuel-gelling experiment, so it can be done. It just can't be done with weather, terrain and 4000 other transport aircraft sharing the same domestic sky at any one time. To me, something like the "natural biological size" principle comes into play when imagining such systems of control and it might be expressed as a "natural limit to human-managed complexity". Now if machines can carry on an extremely rich conversation with one another regarding the usual factors such as position and speed and they can do that with the predictive power of the same machines which helped the Genome Project along then perhaps true automatic flight will be possible, even right to the parking of the aircraft. Thing is, by that time, other technologies may have obviated the need to use airplanes to travel at all.

[Huck]

Many lay people have this impression that everything is automatic!

An impression strengthened, no doubt, by some of the scarier posts I see right here on PPrune. Manual flying = ego massage, etc....

As for PJ2's post, above - spot on. The freight trains that rumble by my house every day have a crew of three. In one hundred years they will still have a crew of three. And aircraft will have a crew of two. Why? Same reason people still fly C-130's after 50 years. "Cost effectiveness."

[ve3id]

The human race has had to adapt to more new technology in the last forty years than in the three thousand before it. We are relying on things that we can see working, because for centuries that is how we knew they were real. We as a people have not learned to be cautious about implementing new systems because things have changed too much for our perceptions to adjust. We see it working and we believe it will continue to work. Like lemmings, we march down to the computer shop and buy Microsoft windows, despite all the security flaws and bugs we hear about. Of course, it is the bean counters that want to implement cost-saving measures in the first place, but their managers are wowed by technology that appears to promise all and let them get away with it.

We are a quick-fix society. If there is something invented last week, we gleefully rely on it if it stops us having to think about the problem. Yes, we rely on governments to keep manufacturers in check, but peple who work for them are humans too, still in techno-culture shock themselves some of the time.

I am not a professional pilot, and usually stay quiet here as my mere PPL demands, but I feel that as an engineer I may have something useful to add. I once had the pleasure of flying an Aztec YYZ-YUL with a former Red Arrow in the right seat to get some instrument time. He couldn't understand why I flew it manually all the way. Now you know.

After taking post-graduate security and software engineering courses, I made a couple of rules: don't fly unnecessarily, don't live near a Nuclear Generating Station, and always keep the backup system running in parallel and well-exercised (that's the aircrew in this case).

Only the paranoid will survive. Keep vigilant!

[lowbypass]

"From the pax point of view"
"ps. Unless the f/o has done a real bummer"

Maybe I should shed some light to you, CAPTAINS DO BUMMERS TOO

[llondel]

lowbypass:
Maybe I should shed some light to you, CAPTAINS DO BUMMERS TOO

In which case you send the f/o out to meet the pax... :}

[TACHO]

What a coincidence, was at a 'party' the other night, and was unfortunate to enough to be accosted by a drunken nitwit who proceeded to tell me why my job was so easy... went along the lines of: " it must be really hard pressing the autopilot button on the runway and then pulling back on the stick and landing at the other end".... I refused to justify the moron with a sensible response. However the next day it got me thinking (rarity i know), what has led to this universally accepted idea that we press a takeoff and land button? and more importantly, so that I can effectively counter future pea brains, what is your standard response when people you socialise with come out with such tripe? I mean, we have all had these questions.... "its all automatic nowadays though isnt it' Or 'Do you ever actually land it then'???? etc...

Happy (auto)landings all and may I be the first to wish you a happy easter.

Tacho

[tocamak]

Our industry is no different to any others in that change takes place and the challenges faced by the people at the coal face change as well, this has always been the way of the world. In a previous life I was in the Merchant Navy and as a 17 year old was often reminded that I had missed the "good old days" with the implication that things were now so easy that any idiot could do the job. The job was changing as it always had done; I'm sure the transition from sail to steam was viewed as a bad thing. Our industry is bound to change even more in the coming years and we have to accept that but also ensure we can adapt as well. Basic skills will always be a requirement and it's up to training departments to ensure that they are not lost and that practising in line operations is not seen as something non-standard. As regards the amount of pay anyone gets for a particular job then it is market forces that dictate the level of remuneration. We are not paid for being on standby to deal with an emergency or critical event but to take people (or goods) from A to B etc. The world does not work on people being paid pro-rata for their skill or responsibility; how could you equate a transplant surgeon to a premier-league footballer in the way they should be paid and there are many different examples of where the pay does not seem to have a relationship to real responsibility.
If someone asked me my opinion of wether it was a good job to try to get into then I would still say yes and certainly more varied than being a Dentist. That being said neither of my sons have shown any inclination to follow my path and that's fine with me as well, they should make their own way in life. The job is different now to what it was twenty years ago and will be quite different in another twenty but you will still see things from the cockpit that will make you turn to your colleague and say "That was worth getting up for".

[FlexibleResponse]

Gee!

I worked so hard all these years to avoid the "**** hitting the Fan"!

...and now I am being told because the "**** didn't hit the Fan", that the job must have been easy!

How do I go about trying to explain that to the loved-ones of my mates that didn't make it?

[Right-Hand-Man]

Ive wanted to be a pilot for a few years now, however i still have to finish college so whatever i end up doing is still a couple years away. This post has deffinately helped me open my eyes, for the better. In recent times i began to face the fact that the being a pilot may not be half as good or job satisfiying as i thought.

For a start i'd have to leave home for a few a couple of years to train, leaving behind my friends, family and all sorts of unfinished business in my life. Not to mention even if i did get a flying job, after who knows how long, i'd still have to pay 100,000k plus back to my parents (who are willing to loan me it). And all for what, a monitoring job? hmmm.....

I still have some years left to decide so i'll keep my eyes open for any changes in the future. The military (not the irish one anyway:p) will soon be making their fighters pilotless, i shudder to think civil aircraft arent so far behind.

Working in a bank doesn't seem so bad anymore, my dad did it and he's doing very well. Good pay, holidays, social scene etc..... why not?:ok:

rhm

[speedrestriction]

Despite what many would like to think, an increase in automation is not necessarily an increase in safety.

This is entirely speculation on my part but I imagine that if it were possible to graph safety vs automation for flightdeck operations you would get something roughly resembling an inversely exponential curve ie. it is highly worthwhile to a point, after which it gives a reducing increase in safety for a given increase in automation.

The bottom line is that an automated machine makes "decisions" based on parameters and rules. Once reality decides to step outside the machine's parameters the automatics are redundant. For example last week on passing 400 feet on departure a heron appeared in the flightpath. Does this mean we start fitting aircraft with bird avoidance technology?

With regard to the public perception of pilots being the cause of many crashes and wanting "biggles to sit on his hands", it should be remembered that we are one of the few industries that washes its laundry in public. Unfortunately TV programmes on butchers and food poisoning don't rank highly on TV producers to-do lists.

sr

[Huck]

I worked so hard all these years to avoid the "**** hitting the Fan"!
...and now I am being told because the "**** didn't hit the Fan", that the job must have been easy!



"I build, what, two thousand breedges - and do they call me Pierre the Bridge Builder? No! But you b@gger ONE goat...."

[llondel]

speedrestriction:
Despite what many would like to think, an increase in automation is not necessarily an increase in safety.

I think it has been shown that having the flight crew baby-sit the automatics causes more accidents than the other way around. Let the crew fly the aircraft and let the computer prompt them if they're getting close to a cock-up.

[Clandestino]

What's really going on here?

A lot of PPRuNers indulging in a pastime of trollfeeding - me included. High school dropouts in cockpits, earning more than PM? What a cheap provocateur.

[jagwheels]

Am entering this topic to perhaps stop the nagging reminder to me with “no postings”

A little about myself

At 16 I had an ambition to enter the RAF. A flying or non flying role was not important but my academic achievements to date seemed to impress someone and was selected to go to Cranwell for flight crew selection. Medical was the first and the last of my dreams. Failed the colour blindness test.

My future eventually took me through an IT career which was financially rewarding but the yearning for the skies never left me. OK I got a PPL followed by a simple aircraft eventually moving into aerobatics but still look up at those big shiny things and think “if only”.

I have 2 commercial pilot friends who like to join me occasionally and throw it around a bit so I get first hand earache at times regarding their lives but what impresses me most is their dedication to the job. They both seem to still regard it as a great privilege despite both having gone through divorce

I try to understand the auto vs. manual arguments but obviously not qualified to make a judgment but as a passenger my vote would be in favour of the pilot who could ultimately bring this heavy lump of metal safely onto terra firma when the “chips” are down.

[Joles]

"Give me some clouds to look at rather than a desk any day. "

Well said bmi.

Guys ( and girls) you are talking to a chap who till date regrets not getting good enough marks in school to qualify for flying school ( not that I could afford to even if I had)
And what did I become ? " Senior middle management" in one of my country's top 5 insurance companies after being " middle management" in an equally famous MF after being an equity analyst.
Even now when I hear the whine of a 737-X00 blazing across the skies I look up and mentally salute those magnificient men (and women) in their flying machines !
You are right. It could be worse.
You could be like me - an insurance salesman !
So chin up guys, you're doing a fantastic job keeping those birds ( and us) in the air and there are people like me who appreciate:D


Joles

[sparrow1]

Seems to me hands on experience in the job wins every time over automatic brain disengaged mode, also in most professions that I can think of.

With respect to professional status , commercial pilots will retain the respect of lay people regardless of how they fly , because people generally appreciate the specialised job and the big responsibility that comes along with it.

Job satisfaction would be vastly improved with some direct contact with the passengers , what's clearly lacking is some positive feedback from the clients . Sadly don't know how that's possible in this day and age.

My background ; GA pilot :ok: and practising dentist :eek:

[PJ2]

TACHO;
what is your standard response when people you socialise with come out with such tripe? I mean, we have all had these question
I ask them how safe their car (and they) would be if they "pushed the speed control button" in the driveway and left the car on it's own to drive downtown to work.

If speaking to a professional, say a lawyer, I suggest they send their own version of "autoflight", their legal secretarial staff (who after all, really do all the work, don't they?), in to do the actual criminal trial. After all, it should be easy when all the work is done for them, right?

If speaking with a doctor or a dentist, I bring up the notion of CAM - Computer Assisted Manufacturing, and suggest that if such machines can mill exquisitely detailed machine parts and weld cars together surely with sufficient sophistication (automation), these marvelous machines can open the patient up, follow the program that some desk-doctor has previously entered, R&R and then close?

And surely, with the same brilliant automatic technologies, any machine can drill and fill or in today's "preventative" mode, clean teeth according to standard programming of such tasks? Easy..., morceau d'gateau.

These are rough comparisons with some minor faults but are sufficient to make the point. If they border on cheekiness, so be it. The initial suggestion that our profession is "easy" is about as cheeky as you can get without the suggestion being an outright disrespectul one and appearing stupid.

[TACHO]

:}For a start i'd have to leave home for a few a couple of years to train, leaving behind my friends, family and all sorts of unfinished business in my life. Not to mention even if i did get a flying job, after who knows how long, i'd still have to pay 100,000k plus back to my parents (who are willing to loan me it). And all for what, a monitoring job? hmmm.....


Been there, done that.... a couple of years you say... oh heaven forbid. you tell me good job that doesnt require I fair bit of time comittment at the very least. There isnt a day when I wake up and think Sh!t I have to go to work, not one, never, even on my birthday. Monitoring job? get out of here. Dont knock it til you've tried it sonny.:}

PJ2 nice post btw, yeah will have to try that one. with regards to them being 'cheeky', would rather say downright rude. Nothing.... and I do mean nothing, gets my back up more than the unknowledgable making sweeping statements about subjects they know little about, hence my semi-rant above. := The point I was getting at more than anything is to question why, all of a sudden people have this blind faith that all we do is sit monitoring, granted when I am in the cruise We do just tend to sit and watch the autopilot, that said it is because it is a low stimulus phase of the flight where to fly straight and level would be too tiring. However like most computers, the autopilot is no different.... sh!t in...sh!t out... I tell the autopilot what I want it to do, not vice versa.

Tacho

[Right-Hand-Man]

"Been there, done that.... a couple of years you say... oh heaven forbid. you tell me good job that doesnt require I fair bit of time comittment at the very least. There isnt a day when I wake up and think Sh!t I have to go to work, not one, never, even on my birthday. Monitoring job? get out of here. Dont knock it til you've tried it sonny.:}"


Maybe i wasnt clear. I meant that perhaps soon a few years down the line in the job pilots may become nothing more than monitors, im not disrespecting (any) current pilots at all. Ive loved aviation all my life and think being a pilot would be very demanding job etc and i would hate to see the pilot become less and less important.

And of course time commitment is needed to get into any job, but its not measured in years. . . .

rhm

[coopervane]

Maybe all you bored Jet Jockies missed the point along the way. If you wanted to become an airline pilot because you like flying then the best flying you will have ever done was on those singles and twins at flight school.

All the hands on stuff on big jets is actively discouraged these days.

I remember fresh new F/O's coming onto the 727 straight from a light twins.

All keen at first but once on line most wanted to move on to more "advanced " types. The 727 was an aeroplane you could pole around the sky and I told them to enjoy every minute of this classic airliner.

When I saw some of them later they agreed that the word pilot is stretching it a bit on modern equipment. More of an operator!!!

I do think that all jet pilots should be made to fly GA to remain qualified. Stick and rudder training never did anyone any harm!!


Coop & Bear

[discostu]

Nah.....got fed up with trying to explain the finer intricacies of my job to buffoons when I realised most of them were either jealous or after some sort of reaction.

Now when I hear 'Your job is so easy. You get paid ££££££ to do :mad: all.' I just smile and tell them they are exactly right & thats why I love it! Beats sitting at a desk hoping your cartoon tie might impress the office temp :p
Usually gets the desired result :ok:

[Treeshaver]

the bit I like about the original post is:
"social incompetence in any setting outside aviation. " Never has a truer word been spoken.

Man do I get pissed off talking about planes planes and more planes.

[flash8]

you sound like one of my skippers... you know the sort... "the good 'ol days on the trident" (and the inevitable trip down memory lane and the days without glass).

I love my job. Many have asked don't you get bored. Thats why I don't put the Telegraph away to TOD :)

[LuckyStrike]

Be a pilot, IT-guy or an engineer...

At the end of the day when you go to bed to get some sleep, if you are thinking about tomorrow and feel excited; just want to get up as soon as possible to get back to your work, then that is what I would call "working".

But if you go to sleep and never want to get up and go to work tomorrow, that is what I would call "earning".

A wise guy once said:

"When you are young you give up on your health to earn good, as you get older you give up on your earnings to live good."

And that just explains my thoughts; you can't get anything without giving up on something...

my 2 cents...:8

[saffron]

What is lost by some posters is that we are in a profession where most of the people you interact with are also professionals,anybody with an IQ of less than 120 will struggle in this profession (or in any other for that matter) that is the top 25% of the population,so stating that you can take any person off the street and teach them to be a professional pilot is laughable.It is important not to denigrate the work we do,even in self deprecating humour,(a very British trait) otherwise people might start to believe you when you say any fool can do this job.
To those who are bored I say change your job,not your profession,I flew for a LOCO airline & began to hate flying,I took action,moved to corporate on a Gulfstream & absolutey love it & love flying again,however for the best fun you can't beat egg-beaters,now if only I can persuade my boss to buy one!

[767bill]

Perhaps you are disillusioned with your current job and should consider a change...or a least seek a change in working conditions.
As for my view, usually you get out of a job what you put into it. It appears that some professional pilots do not interact with their passengers. You could try greeting the so called SLF at the end of a flight as they are ultimately paying you - and relying on you performing the task skilfully. Most will be grateful for the service you are providing. If this task could be performed reliably by a computer you wouldn't be there; economics wouldn't allow it.
To do a job - most jobs - is not difficult; to do a job well takes considerable effort and practice. Keep at it !

[Rootie]

Well, I am a dentist and not a professional pilot. Perhaps I should not partake in this forum but I do fly my own P210, here in darkest Africa, purely for pleasure. Every flight is an adventure and I enjoy most of them to the fullest. Like many I have initially been duped into believing all the romantic nonsense about the (professional) pilot's life, but soon came to realize that all that glitters is not gold. There is one great truth about airline flying which has dispelled all the fables for me and it is called flying solo. All student pilots dream of and live for flying solo and eventually achieve it, celebrate it and always remembers it. But what happens afterwards? A career in the airline, initially as co-jo and later as captain. Solo flying? Never again. Now where is the romanticism of flying when always sharing the responsibility? When reading through never ending checklists? Always the same, boring. I would rather stick to "drilling in other people's mouths" and enjoying my bit of flying when the opportunity arises-like tomorrow morning.:)

[bnt]

As a younger kid, I wanted to be a train driver, like so many other kids; as a teenager, I started playing a musical instrument (electric bass), and wanted to be a rock star. However, I got a bit of a wake-up call when I was about 16, living in South Africa, when I went to a concert: I can't remember the name of the band, but they'd had a couple of number one hits . They looked tired, p-ed off to be playing another gig, and even though it was a medium-sized town there was less than a thousand people there, and the best audience reaction was not to their songs, but to a couple of popular cover tunes. A year later, they were gone; hardly inspiring, and I left school and got a job.

I tell this story because it was an early lesson in how any job, no matter how glamourous, will inevitably become routine. Even touring the world as a rock star, followed by months in a studio recording that "difficult second album"! The people who survive and progress are the ones who learn to moderate their expectations and make long-term plans.

Loving your job also helps, of course. I've watched the careers of musicians like Steve Vai - a Grammy winner who is among the greatest guitarists working today - who still gets a kick out of touring, playing places where few beyond guitar geeks have heard of him - like an air show pilot, he gets his satisfaction from a job well done, less from how fickle people perceive him.

What's the connection with aviation? Well, I sense some disappointment among the pilots here that you're not the "rock stars" of aviation, getting the money and respect to match that. Others are better positioned to talk about the reasons why that is the case - as you have - and even as SLF I'm not exactly happy about it. If you have my safety in your hands, I want you to be as pampered as a rock star - though without the rock star lifestyle. (Sorry, Bruce!) :8

[frontlefthamster]

I want you to be as pampered as a rock star - though without the rock star lifestyle.


So why would you expect anyone to do the job? :rolleyes:

[bnt]

So why would you expect anyone to do the job? :rolleyes:
Um... to get paid? Give and take, quid pro quo, and all that? Rock stars do a job too, and the good ones earn their pampering - that was one point I was making.

[Pugilistic Animus]

some previous comments were very funny, flying is a disease----I'm no longer allowed by anyone----[outside of aviation---the FBO goes a little quiet and cold too---- to "talk about planes, planes,planes" I do anyway and accept the consequences:}

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

If courtney reckons modern aircraft never lose the autopilot he's never done an airbus sim... or an embraer sim... or a 146 sim.
Straight autopilot failure: very rare indeed (although turbulence could make the embraer autopilot drop out, especially wake turbulence- it didn't like excessive roll rates)
System failure that makes the autopilot unusable; pretty common, whether it's an aircraft failure (gotta love those hydraulics failures) or a ground equipment failure. Anyone here managed a year of airline operation without going anywhere without a working ILS?