BAs attitude towards seat belts during turbulence

[Next Generation PSR]

I've just travelled long haul with BA for the first time in four and a half years, and although very pleased with the level of service from both crews, I was disturbed by the nonchalant attitude to cabin secure during in-flight turbulence.

On at least three occassions during the flight the Captain put on the seat belt signs
due to turbulence. On no occassion was a check made of passenger's seat belts to ensure they were fastened, but added to this
in a full world traveller cabin, customers were freely allowed to wander up and down the
aisles, move hand luggage to and from the lockers, queue for, and use the toilets.

Exactly what is your company's view on this, I'd be interested to know perhaps if a passenger were to put in a claim if a bag fell from an unsecured locker left open - yes this too! Or a passenger fell and injured another. This was a Trans-Atlantic,
just think of possible lawsuits here.

How are you trained re cabin secure in turbulence. I know that my training under the British CAA for another carrier requires
passengers to be seated with seatbelts fastened and the toilets unable to be used.

We block them off.

Other than that, cabin service to a very high standard and better than expected.

I openly invite any replies from BA crews

[Bored_titless]

Do you work for Channel 4 yet?

[Next Generation PSR]

No Bored_titless,I don't work for channel 4, and no I don't have a frustrated desire to work for BA. However I do enjoy my job as cabin crew.

I was interested to know what your company/crew views were on the subject.

A wishy-washy attitude towards safety helps none of us. How do we expect customers to stick to the instructions we give them if we do not implement them and create an safe cabin environment and contradict with our nonchalant attitude what we have demonstrated to them or told them.

Think of that the next time - if you are cabin crew - a customer says "oh I flew with XYZ airlines last week and they let me put the bag there"

When people board one of the flights I operate we stick to the rules laid down firstly by the CAA and secondly our company's high cabin safety standards.

If we all adopt a single line on safety we all make our jobs for whichever airline, one hell of a lot easier.

More sensible replies invited.

[Carnage Matey!]

What do you want the crew to do, force the pax to sit down? We tell them to sit down during the welcome PA, we tell them to sit down when we turn on the signs in flight. If they're too stupid to understand this (and to respect the legal authority of the Captain when the sign is turned on) then I don't think they'll have a leg to stand on in court.

[Next Generation PSR]

In response to Carnage Matey, Yes I would expect the crew to make them sit down, as you would if the aircraft was taxying - or is that allowed too?

And what about a injury sustained by a stray bag from a locker, or another passenger falling onto another?

[flyblue]

I have jost flown BA, and my experience was exactly the opposite. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
We had to wait 40 min for T/O, and had a little turbulence after. This meant that we had to stay seated for more than one hour. I really needed the toilet! And I was not the only one...but when we poor 2 teadrinkers managed to escape for a quick visit, watchdogs dashed at our trousers. We were rebuked and admonished to sit in the nearest seat after getting out. We were not allowed to regain our seat, and after the FSB was switched off, by then the service was going on and the ladies wouldn't let anyone through the aisle.
I found that a little bit too much, also because the turbulence was not that bad. I thought that the passenger's needs had been carelessly ignored. But I thought that maybe they were instructed to do so. I am perplexed by what you are reporting.
Can some BA F/A explain, or some other pax report his/her experience?

[Xenia]

Next Generation PSR...
JETBLAST with you! or maybe ask to create a "bitching" forum :rolleyes:
Yours is not a very professional attitude towards another airline (the world's favourite)cabin crew!!
Just seen your wonderful comments on their service in another forum http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
It seems to me as you are a frustrated cabin crew working for a frustrating charter airline.


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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[Next Generation PSR]

Xenia, you've missed my point and assumed another. I'm not intent on forming a bitching forum. It's just that when I'm sat in a passenger seat for which I paid (no rebate), be it even my own 'charter' airline,
I expect safety worthy of a leading airline.

Incidently I've been flying 'charter' happily for the past 15 years, and have flown long-haul wide bodies too.

And yes I did think otherwise your World Traveller product was very good on both flights.

But as with flyblue I expect a balance of safety and customer care and do not expect either to be compromised in a detrimental way.

But like I said if all us F/As stuck together on matters of safety, our customers might become more educated and understanding regarding the job we all do and it would be a lot easier long term.

[Evacu8]

As far as lawauits go, as long as the seatbelt sign was on, and a PA made for all pax to be seated was made, the crew have done their job.

As far as I'm concerned, as soon as the seatbelt sign is on due to turbulance, I am in the nearest seat with my seatbelt on (as per our procedure). I will continue to make pa's for pax to be seated if they ignore the seatbelt sign, however, I am certainly not risking getting injured during turbulance just to wander up and ask some idiot who fails to adhere to the sign and pa's to be seated!!

Our procedure is that all crew take their seats immediately regardless of the condition of the cabin/ galleys during unexpected turbulance when the seatbelt sign comes on.

The same for landing, by the time the seatbelt sign comes on, the entire crew is seated, and must be.

Ignoring this ( ie wandering around ensuring cabin/pax secure during turbulance) can mean that you will not be paid workers compensation if injured while the seatbelt sign is on (think about it, if you breach company procedures and are injured, there's no way they'll pay the claim !!).

The other way to look at it is, if you are injured during turbulance, there's not much you can do to help injured pax and crew !! And that's what you're there for !! :)

[I'd rather]

Glad I saw this thread, as I've been wondering about this. I was on a transatlantic flight last week, when the seatbelt signs went on. Turbulence not particularly bad. The cabin crew (who were generally very friendly and professional) checked all the passengers were strapped in, but then carried on with the cabin service.

I was wondering - what is the general policy? From experience, it seems that there are 2 "levels" of turbulence - one when you strap the pax in and another when crew buckle up too. Is there a set policy on this or does it vary from airline to airline?

[Next Generation PSR]

At last, some more constructive feedback on the subject.

We are told to make a PA asking the customers to return to their seats, and that the washrooms are not to be used for safety reasons until the signs are switched off. Then I would check with the flight deck crew to make sure it was alright to carry on working. Whilst I was doing this the crew would be blocking off toilets, securing galleys and checking seatbelts were fastened including those sleeping. If the captain saw fit trolleys would be returned and crew would be seated and strapped in. I would give him a cabin secure check, then either return to my seat or carry on working if conditions permitted (we are insured if Captain says ok).

If the seat belts signs were on for more than 15 minutes a reminder PA would be made. However if anyone was getting particularly bolshy about remaining seated and desperate for the toilets, I would speak to the Captain to seek permission to let them go if he saw fit - but usually at their own risk, telling them that they were not insured. But queuing or getting up to open lockers etc is a real no-no.

Yes, sometimes the flight deck do forget to turn them off, one just has to use judgement to ask them if the turbulence has passed and it is ok to turn the FSB signs off.

[Carnage Matey!]

Our policy is that cabin service can continue but no hot drinks, unless we tell them it's going to be rough in which case everyone straps in. In my opinion the crew should tell passengers to sit down if they try to walk around with the signs on, but I certainly don't expect them to injure themselves for the beneift of some muppet so if they can't reach and can't shout at them then thats that.

[TPuk]

Interesting. I often fly with one airline who, during the Captains welcoming PA, remind passengers that "as part of the British Airways group, we do take your on-borad safety very seriously indeed..."

The last time I flew with them one passenger stood up and began to head towards the toilet when the plane was very close to the TOA - but when the FSB sign still on. A cabin crew member instantly stopped her duties in the galley to mention to the passenger that she could go to the toilet but "at her own risk". As soon as that was done, she picked up the PA and reminded the rest of the passengers (who had all remained seated) of the FSB sign...

Maybe the Captains PA shoud have said, "As part of the British Airways group, we do take your on-board safety much more seriously than they do..." :)

[chilled]

Next Generation PSR.

I agree with you that we should all be working to the same standard, our proceedures are the same as yours and are enforced.

Be carefull about telling pax that they are not insured if they are up when FSB signs are on, as this is not true. I saw the minutes of an airline saftey meeting about 3 months ago that stated this. All company training managers were advised to inform their crews not to tell pax this.

Happy flying all

[Porcupine]

The problem is, they take flying for granted, because,(Iam going to have to stop now because Iam inebriated) a difficult word to spell when your lashed.
Anyboby in SYD on Mon-Tue next week.

[Birds2perches]

I don't think you can generalise BA for being 'lax' in this area. It all depends on the crew and particularliy the CSD/Purser. Obviously BA's policy on seatbelts signs has to be in line with the CAA. I just flew with them and found them to be great on safety. I've also flown on other airlines where safety is non-existent yet they are within the UK. I have to agree though, that pax cannot be treated like children at the end of the day. If the seatbelt sign is on and a PA has been made but they insist on standing up - they deserve to break a leg and no law action will be able to agrue that one!

[VnV2178B]

Next Gen.,
(I seem to have spent all today responding to your posts !) I have only been hopping round the EU recently but all the safety briefs have said something to the effect of 'while you are seated please keep your seat belt on' and most of the pax have done just that. Maybe they are all fairly frequent flyers and know about the effects of turbulence. It always seems sensible to me to be fastened to the biggest thing around, these days car drivers and passengers do it automatically so why not air pax too? At the end of the day it's all about education and experience. Once you have been through a rough patch you tend to give more credence to what the crew tell you on the PA but mere words tend to be ignored. Pity, but they will still try to sue you afterwards.

VnV...

[Psr777]

Well,I may take a bashing for this but here goes......

I am not a school teacher, I am not a police officer and i am not a parent. Most people who travel are adults and should be treated as such.

Initially at BA the flight crew make a PA advising pax that "there safety is our prime concern etc." and explain to them that they should keep their belts fastened at all times. During a day flight whenever the FSB sign came on I would make a PA advising pax of such, on a night flight the flight Crew include in the welcome on board PA that seat belts must be fastened and clearly visible to avoid being disturbed during the flight and NO further PA's are made, however the crew always complete a cabin secure check, anyone who is asleep with no seat belt on is woken up and asked to put it on and make it visible, we also do this during other services whenever we can see pax going to sleep it saves hassle later on.

All it takes later on if pax want to wander about and go to the loo etc is a quiet word and say"oh, just to remind you the seatbelt sign is on would you mind waiting until it has been turned off? If they tell you they have to go let them, you have covered yourself and done your job, The easiest way to piss off your pax is to treat them like kids, even if you think they deserve it as long as you have covered yourself so what, we have to get away from this holier than thou bloody aloof attitude.

I agree with Next Generation PSR in his ideals but we have enough bloody hassle with hand baggage for christ sakes can you ever envision it being any different?

I also dissuade crew from rolling out the old favourite" oh, you're not insured..." because they actually are!!!!!Any airline had a duty of care to its pax even if they disregard the FSB. do you really want to call the police just because someone needed to pee? Can't see the police being very impressed, nor the company who has to foot the legal bill and tie up the legal department.

End of the day, why make your our job more difficult than it is? Keep it as simple as possible and dont confuse pax complaints with a personal attack on you!!!!!!

I await with baited breath and a large Vodka for your comments.

Safe Flying

[Next Generation PSR]

Hi Psr777, I'll gladly join you with that Vodka, my favourite drink too.

Ok let's go through your response which suprisingly in part I agree with or adhere to personally.

I even ask customers on our flights to buckle up over their blankets so we need not disturb them uneccesarily, a great idea and
shows customer we care about not having to wake them.

Firstly I agree that we should always treat the customer with respect (at first, at least). I never adopt a 'finger wagging' approach as I've been in the business long enough (14yrs)to realise this doesn't work and just inflames the situation. I cringe when less experienced people do it.

In terms of my particular flight which caused me concern was that

a) Not on any of the occassions the FSB signs came on for turbulence did the crew carry out a seat belt check or attempt to ask customers to sit down on a personal basis. No back up PA from the cabin crew to add to what the flight deck had said including asking them not to use the washrooms for their own safety until the seatbelt signs had once again been switched off.

b) Crew even passed the dozen or so people queuing for the toilets to service them and did not even ask them to sit down. I understand if someone is desparate and would show empathy, but to allow a dozen or so people to remain standing?

Incidentally I was sat in seat 52J in the last section of a B747-200.

c) Cabin crew even allowed people to take things/restow stuff in lockers, leaving the lockers open whilst sorting the contents of their bag whilst the aircraft continued to bounce and sway sideways over The Rockies.
In the nicest possible way I'm sure your well aware of how the 747 'kicks' at the back.

I'm all for the friendly and reasoning approach and asking them if they can hang on if possible "as turbulence is an unknown quantity and I wouldn't like to see them get injured".

Incidentally both carriers I've worked for have told us to tell the customer they are at their own risk and not insured. I'd love to see this clarified and more info would be appreciated so I can bring this up on my forthcoming SEP.

I agree the job is hard enough, but safety is safety and to the more people understand the reasons why we ask them to do something and that all carriers adopt a uniform attitude within reason, the easier things will become.

If we don't allow people to walk around whilst taxying at 50mph, why should we at 500mph?

If I have a matter or safety which is being argued I will always explain the reasons why - bag blocking the two customers in the seats next to them or bottles in the overhead in lose plastic bags possibly leaking into electrics etc. I always do it with a smile, so they don't feel lectured or
that I'm being snotty.

This is the point I'm trying to make however, who do you think I would be most miffed with if I had of been struck on the head by a bag, or fallen onto by an off balance customer? The customer for being up during turbulence or the crew not even attempting to ask the dozen or so people standing all together queuing at the back to sit down?

I thought some points needed clarifying from my view as I felt any minute I might have been clouted by a bag or fallen on.

Right, now where's that Vodka and Diet Coke?
Cheers, and thanks for taking the time to respond.

Happy and safe flying to you http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif)

[Psr777]

what can I say?!!!!!!

I totally agree with you, Iwas trying to get the pint over to our other esteemed brethren and girlthren!!!!!!! in the group.

I wish you worked on my flights !! aaaahhhh

tell you what you ever fly on one of mine as a pax, let me know and you can drink the champagne dry!!!!!!
Thanks for a good topic though, not enough crew get involved in this ind of thing.

cya

!!!!

[Bored_titless]

Hmmmm

If you were so concerned by the lack of crews involvement in getting passengers to obey the FSB sign, why didnt you speak to the senior cabin crew member?

Raising it here, that is with 20-20 hindsight, totally after the fact, you are acting in the same manner as Channel 4.

[flyblue]

Bored, you don't go around teaching pros how to do their job. If you are a pilot, would you go tell another pilot that he should have landed better? What do you know about the company rules? This is the reason why I didn't speak up in the case I was involved in, I am sure NGP kept his thoughts for himself for the same reason. Seeking a dialogue and an exchange of opinions only proves that he is an intelligent F/A, same as psr777. Many times I ruminated the same problems about a balance between safety and pax care.
I personally try to use my COMMON SENSE any time depending on the occasion. I mean that you cannot deny the use of the lavatory to someone who needs it, as well as you cannot let go because you are nobody's mother/father.
I believe that the correct use of COMMON SENSE is the thing that makes the difference between an experienced F/A (as pursers should be) and a greenhorn.
I have experienced that unfortunately most (not all!) of the F/As tend to adjust to the purser. If he is careless of the safety, most of them will be.

PS It was Chianti and Baileys for me!


[This message has been edited by flyblue (edited 09 November 2000).]

[Bored_titless]

Flyblue, sorry, but your wrong.

Seeking a dialogue and an exchange of opinions at the time would be sensible.

Raising it here seems very much like muck-raking by a journalist.

We need to be careful in the skies, but we also need to be careful here.

[flyblue]

And then what do you think the journalist could do? Report about anonymous posts in a forum open to anyone?
Let's not become paranoid. And anyway I personally have nothing to hide.

I think the concern NGP and psr777 showed on the topic is exactly the same I feel, and I wouldn't refuse to discuss it with a journalist if he /she was competent.
Again, I think that you don't go, unrequested ,discuss whith a professional about the way he carries out his duties. What do I know about his company rules? What the Capt instructed him to do?

Those are the kind of exchanges between collegues I find really constructive and useful :it is about common sense, that is (I quote) the less common thing in the world. Rules that are clear and strict can be found on books and are not interesting at all. Just buy the book and read it.
YooooHo! Journalists! Come and see how concerned and caring are F/As. They spend time pondering on the best possible way of ensuring your safety!

[This message has been edited by flyblue (edited 09 November 2000).]

[Bored_titless]

Flyblue

What is life like on your planet? You said "And then what do you think the journalist could do? Report about anonymous posts in a forum open to anyone?". You must have missed the Despatches program on Channel 4, and the subseuqent quotes in most UK papers from this very forum. Remember, on PPRUNE people may not be whom they say they are.

Things may be said to illicite certain reactions.

You will find out more about a companies safety rules by asking the crew on the day, than you will by asking here, where no-one can be proven to even work for an airline!!

I stand by my point, if you are concerned about safety, raise the matter at the time.

[Xenia]

I thought we could exchange information and grow professionally and as individuals in here... what's otherwise the point of having a forum? :)
Ok...sometimes..most of the times ;) I come out with sort of "humoristic" posts and replies...I believe that's the effect of being born in a tropical latitude + my brain being pressurized since 1986 ;)...and a way like another to keep myself young (at least in spirit!) :) :)
Probably Bored T is just missing the point that Flyblue is not in the UK and that she's not aware of what happened in channel 4...so you two don't understand what the other is on about!
My suggestion??? just don't believe everything you read, and don't get upset if you don't agree with everything that's written.
We could go on and on about this topic (cabin secure)...but agree with Flyblue here in two points
1)F/As tend to adjust to the purser. If she/he is careless about safety, most of them will be.
2) COMMON SENSE
Hey...can I join in with Mavrodaphne of Patras? (greek red sweet wine)



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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[Xenia]

Thinking about seatbelts.... ;p

"...To operate your seatbelt, insert the metal tab into the buckle. It works like every other seatbelt, and if you don't know how to operate one, you should not be out in public unsupervised"

"Welcome to xxx where the local time is 4pm and for those of you standing, you should have an excellent view of the FASTEN SEAT BELT sign..."

"Ladies & Gentlemen, welcome to xxx, please remain seated with your seatbelt fastened until the aircraft comes to a complete stop at the terminal building and the engines have been switched off...besides to the best of my knowledge, we have never known of a passenger to make it to the gate before the aircraft..."

:) :) :)


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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[Next Generation PSR]

XENIA love those PAs, have heard them before, but they really do amuse me every time I hear them. Actually would love to use them myself, but our management have a bit of a dim view on that sort of fun - It only takes one customer to get snotty then before you can say "Cabin secure" you're invited to an interview without tea and bikkies.

Just back from a round trip to Egypt 14hrs, a very large vodka and diet coke I think :)

[TPuk]

Or how about;

"The cabin crew are always very grateful to members of the public who don't mind giving up a few minutes of their time at the end of the flight to help clean the aircraft. All you have to do to volunteer is stand up before the fasten seatbelt sign is switched off. Thankyou"

I've yet to hear that on a flight, but I wonder how many passengers would stand up after that announcment was made!

Would anyone care to try it and let us know?

TPuk

[Evacu8]

Tpuk..... They would still stand up !! They wouldnt listen to the PA, just like they dont listen to any other PA that's made in the Cabin !! You'd be surprised what you can slip into a PA without anyone noticing... it's good fun actually ;)

[Sloaf]

I can remember flying on one of the older, larger Gulf carriers, when a clicker was being used to count heads. The FSS (a Brit male) asked all the passengers to sit for the count. A minute or two later, he repeated the announcement and added, "and that includes you at the back in the blue jacket..."

[Dangerous_Dave]

Treating pax like children might be the way that charter airlines work, and making childish PA's such as the ones above is a sure way to upset the very passengers who are paying your wages. The BA way of doing things is treating people like adults. I know that a lot of paxs don't behave like adults, but it is amazing how quickly people act up, when they are treated like kids.

Screaming at paxs to sit down on the taxi in, either over the PA or down the aisle just makes you look really unprofessional. As well as flying as cabincrew, I have recently flown a lot on a couple different UK Charter Airlines. I didn't appreciate being taked to and lectured over the PA, when I or anyone around me had done nothing wrong. A little quiet word in someone's ear is a lot more constructive, and effective.

Act like adults not children, treat your paxs like adults, and eventually they will behave like adults too, I have found.

[Sloaf]

"Eventually" can turn out to be a long period of time in some cases!

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I wish I lived in Theory-'cos everything works in theory....

[Xenia]

Dangerous_Dave...it seems that your sense of humor is not one of the best ones around... :)
No one of us in here are saying that we need to treat pax as child....
About charter airlines...I don't really think is good to point your finger out and accuse them...ok...I worked in the past for a mayor charter airline in the UK and really hated it...not only pax treated like children...new cabin crew were treated like sh**** http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif but I only can say that there are many people working for charters that are really worth and that are as good and as professional as us working for scheduled airlines! :)


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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[ozy_rotorhead]

This thread actually started as a discussion on turbulence and I was hoping to gain some information on the policies of the various airlines around the world on how they deal with the different stages of turbulence. In particular it would be interesting to know if your organisation actually has a policy. The information gained will be used in an aviation safety forum.

[Flygor]

For the airline I work for, the actions we would take would depend upon the severity of the turbulence. If the turbulence was light then we would carry out a seatbelt check. If moderate we would carry out a seatbelt check whilst to procceding to our jumpseats or the galley if we were carrying out a service. In severe turbulence we would not make any check - our priority is to keep ourselves safe. If pax needed reminding that seatbelts should be fastened we will shout down the cabin or use the pa. after all an injured FA is of no use during a real emergency.
I encountered severe turbulence on a transatlantic flight a few months ago. During the turbulence it was all we could manage in the rear galley to sit on the floor and hold on, standing, let alone walking was impossible. However many pax seemed to think it was ok to get up to queue for the toilets. The seatbelt sign was on and the captain had asked passengers to remain seated, but still people took the risk! Mad? well I wasnt about to get injured to tell them to sit down. Wold anyone else have handled it differently?

[IFS to Flight Deck]

My airline uses light, moderate and severe to describe turbulence. Same as Flygor..cabin crew to look after their own safety and can sit down at any time the feel the need to do so.
Pax on my last flight took real offence to me reminding him that the seat belt sign was on and that I would rather have him seated while waiting for the toilet than standing. All spoken to as an adult.
Out came the frequent flyer card...I been flying with you since.....treat me like a child......??
I accept if you need to go you need to go (I know the truck (NRT) feeling)but I do have pax safety at heart and always will.....It's my primary role!! Sometimes pax forget!