College Pass Rate

[TATC99]

Thought I'd let everyone know that 47 of us completed the 213 Basic Course at the NATS College in Bournemouth last week, and there was an 85% pass rate - 40 out of 47 - which is a record apparently! :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Many congratulations. It will be interesting to see how many subsequently validate. It certainly won't be 85% so work hard...

[big-blue-sky]

wow...and i thought the end of the financial year was a few months off

[BAND4ALL]

Just when did those records start out of interest?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Are the figures we've been given seasonally adjusted? :}

Stoney shuffles off muttering (it's an age thing)"Standards...pah...slipping...like A level results...never in my day...coalface will sort 'em out...humbug" :E

ps., Hearty congrats ! :D

[ADIS5000]

Congrats to all who passed. To those who failed, keep grafting, most people get through after the extra couple of weeks.

The pass rate certainly sounds much higher than previous versions of the basic course. Has the course been restructured (again) in the last year, has the bar been lowered or are you all just brilliant?!

Regards ADIS

PS: I think you'll find the hard work starts about now!!

[smellysnelly2004]

213 basic wasn't in the new format - that starts from 214.
ADIS5000 you are totally correct. For those who go on to foundation (can't speak for App or Aero) the hard work is about to begin. Most notable is the change of examination style from multi-guess (normally with 2 obviously wrong answers) to verbatim regurgitation from the MATS1 and 2.
Then take into account that you need to have a working knowledge or everything you've been told from day 1 plus a detailed knowledge of the most relevant info (standing agreements, weather etc) for oral boards and you can easily see how much work is involved (unless your name is James T!!)
There is also the transition from single to multi-strip displays - mind you, within a couple of days it starts to feel natural.
Congratualtions and good luck to all who passed.

smelly

[Jagohu]

TATC99: I'm not quite familiar with the training in the UK, but I guess this college is similar like ours in Luxembourg, so you're about to start OJT now...
As it was said above, it doesn't mean a thing that you all passed the basic training...
When we started in Luxembourg we were 16... 16 of us passed the first(theoretical) phase, 12 the full training there. There's only 7 of us validated and still we were a pretty good group...

Anyway, congratulations and good luck for the rest! :)

[Mr. Pig]

Just as a matter of interest, can anyone put a figure to your ab-initio success rates (i.e. percentage of those commencing ATC training who make it through to licensing)?

Pig

[smellysnelly2004]

Don't have the info to licensing I'm afraid but out of 44 people who started on 211 Basic course(not including the recoursers), there are 9 left who have not failed anything yet(7 on area, 2 on Aero & App), I think 23 on, or waiting for recourses and 10 who have been chopped.

[Me Me Me Me]

you passed the introductory course? Wow, Well done

Bet you're the life and soul of the party tonight...

[agent007]

Just out of interest. Is there much difference between the college pass rates? If there are fewer on a course at the smaller colleges, due the students benefit?

[smellysnelly2004]

At the NATS college, all Simulation training is one to one so the course size shouldn't affect any course really. I suppose you could argue that a smaller course leads to instructors getting to know your problem areas more in depth and may be they could spend more time (ie more runs) with you specifically.
On the flip side, instructors will have differning opinions/styles on certain scenarios and it's good to hear and see different approaches to controlling and how they compare and contrast.
So the answer is no, the course size shouldn't affect pass rate :ok:

[watch_the_birdie]

Reading about pass rates at the college, could anyone enlighten me on why they think certain people fail things or are chopped? Is it because of lack of hard work (I would think this is least unlikely seeing as to be there pretty much shows you want to learn), very hard courses, abnormally high amount to learn..... the list could be endless.

I'm not afraid of hard work and I like learning new things all the time. I don't have a "gifted memory" so I know I actually have to work to remember stuff.

I was also wondering, are those who tend to fail, graduates or non-graduates or, "young" or "old". I would expect that those who had been to university may find studying easier, but then I always hear graduates can be complacent and when it comes to learning something new after university, they fail miserably...

Just your thoughts please.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

ATC is a peculiar job - it matters not one bit if you are a graduate with several degrees, or someone who has just scraped in. Usually young people stand a better chance at busy units, but plenty of "oldies" can also validate. Some people can do the job; others cannot. Unfortunately not all the "cannot" people can be weeded out during initial training. I've seen plenty of trainees who have come through the college with flying colours and got no furtehr than the simulator at their unit.

I can't offer advice on college work - that's the job of your instructors. But, once you get a posting read all you can about the place in the AIP and get some maps out so you are familiar with lcal geography, etc. That may well help..

[smellysnelly2004]

Watch the Birdie,

There is no discernable pattern to those that fail regarding age/educational background.
Very few fail the theory, some fail the verbal and some fail the practical. I would say that an extremely small percentage is down to lack of effort/study.

[petedavis]

Hi folks,

I'm not quite in yet but was wondering how many chances you get at college, if you fail assessments etc? I'm currently in a secure and well paid job, and want to take the risk, but it is looking like a big risk. I've read on here that less than 40% or so make it to validation??
Thats a scary statistic!!

[petedavis]

Hmm its hard not to be put off by that figure! Question is whether its worth risking a career for dreams of glory?
"Nothing ventured, nothing gained" springs to mind but its still a tough call. Anyone one else on here had similar experience of this risk?

Also, how is the course assessed? mostly theory exams or practical. And which area are most failures from?

Thanks

[intherealworld]

And even at 20% those figures would be highly massaged!

[smellysnelly2004]

I'd say 40% was a reasonable figure for getting through the college - may be a little on the ambitious side actually.
You hear rumours about validation rates ranging from 25-90% once you're at a unit but how true these are I have no idea!!

[ZOOKER]

We lost a few.

[petedavis]

Scary stuff, would it be advisable to learn the MATS before starting?

[smellysnelly2004]

For background reading then may be. It is a fairly dry document that needs explaining in many places.
I think you'd gain far more from visiting a unit and doing some more general research.

[petedavis]

Well I currently work in the RAF as an assistant and have about 4 years experience, which is why I feel it is a big risk. Do you know if ex civil/military assistants tend to perform better/worse than an ab initio?

I think maybe I'm worrying too much.

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

Pete, just sent you a pm

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Not from the UK but there is some advice that is relevant the world over.

As a trainee ATCO, venturing out into a Centre or Tower for your Sim Course and then OJT, show respect for the rated guys, remember that you are not in a position to be a smart arse until you have a license, and while you are working on someone elses license listen to what they tell you. While popularity in a unit won't make up for lack of ability it certainly helps in line ball cases, so don't piss off the guys who may have to decide whether you stay or go.

Finally if you miss something, make a mistake or whatever, own up to it, learn from it and try not to do it again. This approach will win you a lot more respect than trying to blame someone else or trying to find excuses.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, if you are going to be five minutes late for a shift, call up say you will be ten minutes late and stop to get donuts (of course you should never be late for a shift as a trainee :=)

Good luck into the future.

[Canary51]

The Bus never bought donuts. :} Perhaps that explains his popularity:ok:

[atcowannabe]

Hey Pete,

You asked if anyone else has taken this risk. I have just got through the 3rd stage, should be starting college in June/July. I currently work in a good job in London, good wage, good prospects etc however it just isn't something I want to do for the rest of my life! I took a long time deciding whether or not to take the risk of possibly not getting through the college or validation, in reality this helped me a lot as it showed me how much I really wanted to get the job.

If I don't get through any stage then so be it, at least I tried!

[anotherthing]

Pete,

I'm an ex mil ATCO now with NATS.

What do you hope to achieve in the RAF as an assistant? I assume that if you stayed in you would try to go on to do JATCC? The way I see it is you have 2 options.

1. Try for your JATCC, if you fail yuo can always go back to being an assistant (though you may find this difficult to bear with regards to 'sense of pride' or 'image' - though you shouldn't). At least if you fail you still have your assistant job.

2. Apply for NATS, see if you get in, then make the jump. If you fail, you will need to look at other avenues.

Going for point 1 above is a good idea if you like the services lifestyle, though the money and time off is nowhere near as good as NATS. However if you succeed at JATCC, then decide in a few years time that you want to go civvy, be advised that you will still have to jump through all the hoops as if you were an ab-initio.

There are numerous instances of mil ATCOS failing even the initial stage tests, or failing further down the line. Not because civvy controllers are any better, but because the tests are different than those at Cranwell, and also the type of controlling is vastly different, with a totally different mindset.

These differences are often quite difficult to overcome once you have been a valid mil ATCO for some time, it would be exactly the same scenario going from civvy to mil, though obviously that's not a well trodden route! Also, you will be that bit older when you try to do the course, which never makes it easier.


Whatever you decide, don't get hung up on statistics - they are after all just numbers. Although teamwork is integral to doing well on a course, it is how you do as an individual that decides whether you pass.... worrying that a lot of people might (and actually will) fail will not help you. If you are good enough you will succeed, regardless of statistics. If you want the job enough, you will apply and leave the safety net of the forces, and take what is admittedly, a bit of a risk.

It's worth it in the end, good luck with whatever you do :ok:

[2 sheds]

AirNoServicesAustralia

Wise words indeed.

Mmm..donuts...

[Gemsound]

At the risk of sounding positive.....(!)

We were told when we started the Basic course in September that previous basic courses had a 50% or lower pass mark. 85% of us passed. These figures really don't mean a thing - if everybody on the course has the ability to be an ATCO, the pass rate will be 100%. It really depends who's on the course as to what the figures will be.

That said, it's a long road to validation, and you have to be extremely committed to succeeding and working hard, but it's not unachievable. Like many, I gave up a good job to come to NATS too, and I've taken the approach that I'm going to work as hard as I can, put in the hours, do my absolute best, and if I don't make it, it won't be for lack of effort!

So don't look at the figures alone - they're only part of the story.

[2 sheds]

Good attitude, Gemsound. I wish you luck.


Don't forget the donuts...

[petedavis]

Cheers for the responses

I am on the fast-track controller scheme with the RAF, so yes, would go on JATCC within the next 1-2 years. But realising that Mil experience doesn't really count for much in the civil world, I would rather join NATS now.

I'm just gonna go for it (if i get in!), don't want to have a massive regret on my mind for the rest of my life

Thanks again

[anotherthing]

Pete,

I was merely talking about NATS in my above post. You could of course do JATCC, then 2 or 3 tours in the Mil, enjoying the lifestyle (insomuch as you can nowadays), then self fund yourself through a non NATS college.

Although still risky, you would then be in a strong position to apply for a non NATS job. Once you have your foot in the door, there is no telling what might happen.

Mil experience does not count for much when you are in a very strict and regimented training regime such as at Hurn, (you will find a fair few of the instructors are a bit set in their ways, have less of a 'can do' attitude and are actually less flexible in their thinking), but once it comes to validation training and beyond, any experience will hold you in good stead.

The maturity you will (most likely) have gained in the forces will also be a plus point at all stages.

[Dances with Boffins]

I think I like Gemsounds attitude too, Sheds. Can we keep him/her please?

[Quintilian]

Hey!

Doing the basic module at Entry Point North (Scandinavian ATS college), and I think passrate here is roughly 75-90%...Concerning validation numbers I have no clue (first guy that went from EPN -> OJT validated for about a month ago)....

Cheers
TH

[RadarRambler]

the courses change that much, and the rules on re-courses etc and how things are examined, its hard to determine the average pass rate, it seems it not just down to the make up of the students on the course but what is the latest "idea" on how the courses are run. but The college is probably harder than validation, but then saying that, if the college get it really wrong then what gets put out of there could be a lower standard and struggle to validate, or leave the units to make up the lack of knowledge and skill more, which would be very unit dependant on how good/time that would be done.

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Ah, back in my day zzzzzzzzzzz, out of 60 on my course NATS got 15 valid controllers, 25% success is fairly accurate but as many posts have said you can either do it or you can't. Every student that goes through any ATC training establishment has been identified as having the potential to become an ATCO but as any valid ATCO knows, that does not mean they will all make it in the end. Its a long road to validation but you will reap the rewards if successful. Good luck!

[45 before POL]

My course started with 28....26 passed aerodrome.The 2 that failed? 1 is an assistant. the other a tower controller(non nats). 6 went on to do tower(nats) 5 are valid/1 now an assistant. Of the 20 remaining that did area we lost 6(3 now tower atco's, 1 assistant, 2 resigned)
14 went on to unit training. 8 are now valid, 1 now a tower atco and 5 still training. Each course is different some have higher/lower pass rates and medical/compassionate recourses as well. But if you go through the numbers, in general the majority are still working for the company albeit different roles. The key is if you work hard you will get through. If you don't you can look back and say you gave it your best shot. :ok::ok:

[katie84]

Ryan, i just wondered in your post whether the 7 people you referred to included the people like me who were put on business holds?? that increases the 'no fail' slightly and makes it seem not as bad, as there were 4 of us put onto business hold from the 211 foundation course and we all just passed foundation with no failure as of yet!! P.S Good luck with advanced summatives, and wish all the other guys good luck too. See you a week on Monday! x

[smellysnelly2004]

Katie,

You reveal my cleverly concealed identity!!
Sorry, you are right. It was definately worded incorrectly. I meant 7 who have gone straight through without any kind of hold or recourse.
So the real number of people from 211 who haven't actually failed a course is 13.
Congratulations on passing:ok:

[Resay]

Don't forget, just because NATS management say you won't validate anywhere and chop you, doesn't mean you can't do the job. I know it's no small amount but take a 10k loan out (that is if you want to do aerodrome) go through college then find a unit. Okay it's a big risk but if you want the job and are prepared to put in the work and sacrifice for it it is well worth it.

It's a good way to go and I can't believe more people don't do it but are readily willing to pay out 70k+ to get an ATPL, which seems far less fun!!

Unless you actually are gash and keep crashing everything together. Then I'd probably give up.:}

[katie84]

haha, sorry!!! :sad: i didnt realise it was a cleverly concealed identity!! everyone knows who you are, lol. Thakns for the congrats, i am extremely relieved, 13 isnt a bad number hey!!! Us 211ers did ourselves quite proud i would say!! all the best for summatives and see you back at college when i start advanced, woo!!! x

[sr562]

As resay says, just because NATS management say your not good enough its not necessarily true.
On a more sceptical note about the college, a lot of decisions seem to be about cost rather than ability(not all though).
There are many ex NATS cadets, myself included who were told to leave because they would never be an ATCO and are now valid at regional units. Most of the ex NATS guys at my unit which is NATS now are WM and DWM, so dont be too disheartened.
I have shelled out the £15K for an ADI ticket and my advice is if you really want to do the job go for it. Once valid you will make that back easily and more.
Non NATS colleges have smaller course sizes and you get more help than at NATS college, however in defense of the NATS guys they do have up to 50 on a course, dont think its an easy route though as its not, no multi choice like in NATS.