On Line or Web Check In - Courtesy Please [Archive]

13Alpha

24th Dec 2007, 20:33

I sympathise with your sentiments. However:

I was booked on a BA flight yesterday (from LCY) which was ultimately cancelled.

Having looked out of the window at the fog and suspected there might be a problem when I got to the airport, I tried calling the BA "reservations/changes in booking" line to ask for information and advice and potentially change my flight, but I was chucked off the line ("too many calls :ugh:) and asked to use the website or call back later.

The BA website a) had no information about possible/actual cancellations at LCY and b) wouldn't allow me to change my flight online to another from Heathrow or Gatwick.

I tried calling the "dedicated Executive Club silver cardholder" line but, yep, "we are experiencing high call volumes, please hold the line". Funny how lots of people call helplines when there's a problem.

Fortunately while waiting in vain for an answer for BA, I have by now consulted the City Airport and BBC weather websites, and concluded my trip to LCY is likely to be pointless and lead to an unwanted extra night in London.

So I log onto the Luton airport website and see flights departing normally, logon to easyJet.com and book myself a flight from Luton to Edinburgh. After a trouble-free journey to Luton and an only slightly late departure, I arrive in EDI around an hour later than my original schedule.

I feel by my actions I have fulfilled my moral duty to inform BA of my planned no show. However not only have BA failed to inform me of the likely or actual cancellation of my flight (having asked me for my mobile number for this very purpose), they've singularly failed to provide sufficient resources (phone lines or people) to cope with a relatively minor and not unforseeable "crisis".

So PLEASE: if you work for BA, ask yourself: is it your company's deliberate policy to treat your domestic customers so badly that they are forced onto your competitors' services ?

Also - I hope you appreciate the irony that while "full service" airlines can supposedly cope in the event of a crisis, in reality I received no service from the full service airline, and received an excellent service from the "low cost, no frills" competitor. Which leads me to think the differentiation isn't cost, it's competence.

13Alpha

bealine

24th Dec 2007, 20:37

Sorry - my original post didn't make it clear. I realise that as I had said much the same thing on Flyertalk and I realised later. What I meant was:

I'm not going to speak too harshly, because it's often difficult to speak to anyone at BA - particularly at times of disruption. Sometimes our telephones ring for ages before they're answered or sometimes , if someone's stuck in the middle of the M25, it's not practical to phone (I don't want anyone getting fined or jailed for using a mobile whilst driving on my account!)

My post is just intended to make people aware of the implications of being OLCI'd and then not showing up - your seat may have been very valuable to get some luckless stranded guy home! (Even when there's no disruption to speak of, we may have a "Missed Connection" passenger standing by for a spare seat!)

All I would like to say is if it is possible to let us know in advance that you can't make your flight, it would be really appreciated!

Thank you - and Happy Christmas - it's not far away now!

13Alpha

24th Dec 2007, 21:55

I realise you're not talking here in an official capacity for BA - and I do understand that you had a frustrating time watching flights leaving with empty seats, leaving people behind who wanted to fill them. People should have the courtesy to contact BA when they've checked in and then changed their plans.

However I think you'll find that a significant number of people who did this were UNABLE to contact BA because they COULDN'T get through on the telephone and, like me, gave up in frustration.

What I'm saying is - the company could be doing some simple things to help its frontline staff deal with problems like yesterday's fog more successfully. Updating its website properly and allocating enough staff to answer calls from its customers would be a start.

Anyway. It's Christmas now - hope you have a good one.

13Alpha

Avman

24th Dec 2007, 22:03

bealine, that's just the problem - it's just not possible! At times of disruption there's not a cat in Hell's chance of getting through to anyone. Do you honestly expect me to hold the line for an hour waiting to get through? I think the problem doesn't lie with us, the pax, but with the airlines' inability to cope with the obvious increase in the volume of calls severe weather problems is going to bring.

PAXboy

25th Dec 2007, 00:58

I was not travelling this weekend, but had family delayed at LGW and eventually canx. I know FlyBe tried to fill the gaps because I heard about the efforts from someone on the inside, but the family had the usual lack of info and they were sitting in the terminal.

Every carrier now asks for email and mobile (cell) phone number as standard. So ...

Firstly: Send an SMS to the pax warning of possible delays. This can be done automatically by a computer and is old hat technology. Even a standard PC running an SMS gateway application with the right network connection from your data centre, could generate 158 msgs (a 734?) in less two minutes and then the various networks will have them out in less than five. YES some pax won't have their phone on, or with them, or have lent it to granny - that's their problem. When the SMS is sent, the computer logs the receipt form the network, so you can prove the time that the pax mobile phone network had the msg.

Second: Pull up the expected pax list and immediately see (on screen) who has OLCI'd and then phone them to ask where they are and what their situation is.

Third: Check who has not OLCI'd and see if they are in the terminal and done a local check in.

Fourth: Look at your list of pax that are in the terminal and waiting from other flights and SMS them to come to the desks.

The carriers (not just BA, to let Bealine off the hook!) can allocate the phone task to a couple of staff who take half the list each and work through it. Perhaps some back office staff can do this, as front line staff will be overrun by folks at the desk.

Don't expect the pax to call in - because they will land up with a busy tone, or talking to a call centre in another country. Get the staff at the departure airport to call the pax.

Having worked in telecommunications, data centres and call centres for 25 years I know that it is a piece of cake. A standard plan is drawn up and then you just implement the computer to SMS the numbers you took when you booked the pax, making it clear why you want the number.

Example:- passing through the new terminal at MUC on LH two years ago, they changed the gate after I had checked in. Guess what? I got an SMS to tell me.

Sorry Bealine, I know that you are well intentioned and doing your very best. But your employer does not always do the same.

bealine

25th Dec 2007, 11:08

Yes - PAXBoy. Unfortunately, I know only too well that phones at BA go unanswered - especially at a time of crisis!

I will suggest to our Im department that the OLCI Boarding Pass is printed with a phone number or email addy to advise if the passenger can't make the flight. I underatand Air France does this.

My posting was in no way critical - it was intended just to make people aware that once they have checked-in, if they miss the flight or change their mind about travelling, some other poor sod might find their vacant seats useful!

........anyway Happy Christmas to all Ppruners out there! I'm off to work to try to get some more poor people home!

pax2908

25th Dec 2007, 14:15

Hi, this is _slightly_ off-topic. I will be very impressed when an airline will be able, consistently, to act promptly on this 'last minute' information (PAX checked in, announces he/she will not be able to show up for boarding). I found myself in this situation, few years ago when connecting at CDG. Back then, I was not very successful to pass on this kind of time-critical information ... even talking directly to the airline staff. Answer given was "there is nothing I can do, you have to go to talk to my colleagues at terminal 2". Nice to see that things have improved!

Final 3 Greens

29th Dec 2007, 07:50

Why should the OLCI pax call in and cancel?

They are most likely travelling on a non refundable ticket, so there is no incentive to cancel.

After all, they have purchased the seat for that flight - if you buy a pound of sausages from the butcher and then do not eat them, there is no moral compulsion to give them to someone else.

If the airline wishes to reuse that seat in the event of disruption, it should incentivise the passenger to cancel, with say a 50% refund for doing so, which is a win-win-win outcome.

A SMS to all OLCI pax and the ability to handle calls or SMSs back could achieve that aim easily, as PaxBoy says.

PAXboy

29th Dec 2007, 15:37

F3G - spot on. If it was bad weather and I got a call offering to take my ticket back, I might accept - even if I had been planning to travel. It's a natural extension of VDB, which has been around for years. That means carriers don't have to find some other excuse to break their own rules (which they hate doing as they think it starts a slippery slope) they can just use the process they already have to offer Voluntary Denied Boarding. It's not just win-win but win-win-win: Carrier-1st pax-2nd pax!

VS-LHRCSA

29th Dec 2007, 16:47

These are actually very good ideas. I would pass them on but I can see them falling on deaf ears. Good for my dissertation though, cheers.

PAXboy

30th Dec 2007, 13:08

I would pass them on but I can see them falling on deaf ears.Select Mode = Cynical
No need. In a few years time some bright young thing will put them forward as his own and receive high praise for 'moving the industry forward' when they will start treating pax the way they did in the 1960s ... Later he will lecture on "The New Aviation Paradigm" :rolleyes:
Re-Select Mode = Slightly Less Cynical

VS-LHRCSA

30th Dec 2007, 13:48

Hey, as long as I get an "A", I'm happy.

I should have no problem coming up with 40,000 words going by some of the posts on here. Not sure if can pass for "young" anymore...

Final 3 Greens

30th Dec 2007, 14:24

40,000 words :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

My prof. complained at 19,000 for my dissertation :{

WHBM

30th Dec 2007, 20:17

Bealine (and others)

You are living in a past time, when airline operations were part of a public transport system and seen as a service to the community. Concerns about "helping people to get home for Christmas" belong to that era.

BA got away from all that years ago. The only desire of airline management nowadays is to maximise their profitability, using air service as a means to an end. If they can pocket the fare and then say "you didn't turn up so don't blame us" then that achieves their aim. If the cost of providing additional staff and phone systems outweighs any revenue gain from the information they handle, that is the way to go.

BA are not going to proactively ask if you are still going to travel because you will ask for your money back if you take up their offer to cancel. The seat is sold; if they cancel and refund it is only a chance that a percentage will be resold.

Incidentally, if when check-in closes you do not have enough time left to fill the untaken seats with others waiting at the airport, that is your problem to sort out your procedures to handle this, not something to stick on the pax. I always thought that "Gate closes 40 minutes before departure" and all that stuff was to facilitate such events, but as many of us now know this is a complete fiction, and it is often the case that at the time of this "final deadline" the staff have not yet arrived to even start processing the passengers and the incoming aircraft is not even scheduled to be on stand yet.

flyingfemme

31st Dec 2007, 09:20

Online checkin is an oxymoron; invented by airlines to save themselves some money. So now they are finding the downsides - tough.

I always thought that "checking in" was to show the airline that you were actually at the airport and ready to get on their flight..........:hmm:

Last week my beloved "checked in" for a flight from another country. So much could have stopped him getting to his seat.........but, as already stated, it was a non-refundable flight. He had paid for it and so could choose to send it off empty.

If the airlines want to start getting reasonable and abiding by "normal" terms and conditions (half the price for a one-way, no "discounts" for staying saturday night etc) then they may have a leg to stand on. Tesco have never based their price for a loaf of bread on whether I wanted to make sandwiches for work, a kiddies birthday party or simply keep it "in case of need". BA are free to follow the same rules - or go back to "checking in" meaning exactly that!

bealine

31st Dec 2007, 21:10

Online checkin is an oxymoron; invented by airlines to save themselves some money. So now they are finding the downsides - tough.

To be honest, flyingfemme, the airline doesn't care one iota about the downsides!

It is people like me that work with our customers who find the downside, or the customers themselves - like the woman whose son had been knocked off his motorcycle and was in the Intensive Care Unit in a hospital near Stuttgart! She was waitlisted for my flight because her inbound flight misconnected and didn't travel because, in theory, our flight was full.

The only thing was, our flight departed with four empty seats because four On Line Check In pax failed to show at the airport!

So, you see, British Airways doesn't care - it will still get the revenue from those seats. The woman in question didn't care because she never knew the flight had empty seats (but she might never have got to see her son alive!)
The only person who cares is me, because I still care about people! Why should I be made to suffer when I didn't make the decisions to encourage On Line Check In (indeed, I can't see any need for it beyond a seat reservation function!) Like you, I was always of the opinion that checking in was a declaration that you were at the airport and ready to fly!

SIGH - maybe I do belong in the past when airline people behaved like gentlemen and words like "money" and "profit" were never talked about in decent society! Customers also used to care about their fellow travellers too!

To be perfectly honest, sometimes when I read the responses on Pprune, Flyertalk and other Bulletin Boards, I feel very depressed at the general selfishness of people and the "couldn't care less" attitude we're developing.

I am beginning to feel as if I do belong to a previous age (thanks for the reminder WHBM) and people are just waiting for me to shuffle off and await my day of reckoning with the Great Architect of the Universe!

Final 3 Greens

1st Jan 2008, 07:57

So lets get this straight, the woman's flight "misconnected" (??) - I guess that means the inbound was late and BA couldn't manage to offload one no show in the 40 minute period between gate closure and departure.

And this means that the pax who didn't show are selfish individuals, reflective of a changing society?

Forgive me, but I just don't get this one.

Haven't a clue

1st Jan 2008, 08:39

Actually 45 minutes available...

From BA.com:

From 28 October 2007, British Airways has introduced a new minimum check-in time of 45 minutes for all flights departing from London's Heathrow and Gatwick airports, with the aim of easing your journey through the airport and providing a consistent check-in time

I suspect part of Bealine's problem is the straight jacket the wizz bang computer systems impose on the front line staff. In the past I have several times arrived at an airport early and ticket desk staff have been able to "force" me onto an earlier flight which was just about to depart or running late. Not any more though!

It's this removal of traditional customer service which really annoys me; I can tolerate the security and crowded terminals, but when I really need help the staff can't really do anything.

PAXboy

1st Jan 2008, 14:22

That makes sense Haven't, the airlines (like all organisations) have been trying to reduce the number of variables in each 24 hours. Variables cost money as they require intelligent staff intervention and there is a continuing belief by mgmt that technology can take care of most of the variables. (Keep in mind that I have been involved with technology for some 28 years) Intelligent staff cost money and so the solution is obvious...

However, the actual way in which the variables are taken out of the system is to remove staff discretion and empower them (:hmm:) to say that the computer will not allow it. This is one of the basic ways that companies have been able to spout that 'Customer Service' is improving and yet, in fact, it is being reduced. We are all familiar with this sequence:
Problem with a product or service arises.
Phone supplier and get processed through telephone keypad hop-scotch or referred to similar in their web site.
IF you speak to a human, they are full of sympathy and consideration for your problem. If the website, then it will be full of directions that always point you towards another page of so-called information that will lead you back to the first page. This is fresh in my mind as it happened last week.
The human or the website will take lots of details.
Nothing happens.Customer service has become part of the throwaway society and, in general, you only get the kind of customer service that we knew up to the end of the 1980s, if you are paying the really long bucks or are at a small outstation of the company where they have the time to try and help you - and crucially - there is no supervisor looking over their shoulder. This is not the supervisors fault, they need to earn a salary too.

OK, that's my New Year Rant ticked off the to-do list! :ok:

bealine

1st Jan 2008, 16:31

..........BA couldn't manage to offload one no show in the 40 minute period between gate closure and departure.

No - because we have no way of knowing whether an "On Line Check In" passenger will show at the gate or not. Our Flight was delayed by over four hours so when we decided to offload the four no-shows, there was no time for the lady in question to get through security and down to the gate!

(Unlike America, commercial stand by passengers are held at check-in and not permitted to access the gates until in possession of a seat number.)

pax2908

1st Jan 2008, 20:24

Re. bealine

Please do continue to care for this sort of thing... do not pay (too much) attention to FlyerTalk which in my opinion :) is not really representative of what most passengers (not e-passengers) think. There was a similar subject some time ago, whether or not to tell the airline if/when/after one decides not to fly the last segment of one's trip, and the general opinion was not to! BTW I have never used on-line check-in and will continue to discourage my colleagues from using it, because I want to continue to talk to people able to analyze an unforeseen situation and to act accordingly.

Thanks !

WHBM

1st Jan 2008, 20:48

Unfortunately if you eschew OLCI and wait until the desk opens at the airport you will find all the pleasant seats are gone and you are stuck in 63E with your non-reclining seat back against the rear galley.

And I wonder why the US, with its ridiculous over-zealousness for security matters, can nevertheless manage to have standby pax down at the gate whereas in the UK we cannot manage it. Once again it sounds like carriers just not organising themselves for passenger primacy, or airport and airline blaming it on each other. Goodness, in the US even non-travellers, such as those bringing UMs to/from the airport, can, provided they jump through the security bureaucracy, get down to both departure and arrival gates.

13Alpha

2nd Jan 2008, 11:17

As a PAX, online check-in doesn't gain me much other than reserving a seat.

If I have hold baggage I need to go to a desk when I get to the airport anyway. And if I don't, in comparison to the time it takes to get through security (at most UK airports anyway), having to checkin at a machine when I arrive at the airport isn't a big deal.

So if the airlines provided an on-line seat reservation facility and made sure there were enough self check-in machines at the airport I wouldn't quibble if they withdrew online checkin.

13Alpha

PAXboy

2nd Jan 2008, 12:46

So if the airlines provided an on-line seat reservation facility and made sure there were enough self check-in machines at the airport I wouldn't quibble if they withdrew online checkin.Ummm 13Alpha, I think that you will find the airlines are doing the exact opposite. They are hoping to make OLCI compulsory and reduce the staff at the airport to the minimum. Ideally, in their minds, the staff there will have no other function than to check pieces of paper, weigh bags and invite the customer to telephone the airline! In other words, they will have no discretionary powers.

Also, bear in mind that the machines at the airport cost money to buy, service and rental for the space they occupy - so if they can reduce the number of machines that is also 'good'.

Please do not fret about this loss of customer service, as there is nothing that you or I can do about it. Much easier just to pass through the experience listening to your iPod and ignoring it all.

radeng

2nd Jan 2008, 14:31

At least the Gold Card on BA gets you the First Class check in, and the early choice of seats. How long that will last, I don't know. I will defend BA upon one count though - I find the staff at check in and the cabin crew are excellent, far better than any other airline I've used, despite the way the management appears to try to run a 'Business Prevention Department' to thwart them. Baggage tracking is another matter and a total disaster. The lounge staff at LHR are very variable, but LGW are universally good. I'm flying from LGW to VCE again on Jan 28, so I'll see how it goes.

They could do better with a dedicated BA lounge at CDG, rather than the very limited Air France one....

WHBM

2nd Jan 2008, 15:00

I will defend BA upon one count though - I find the staff at check in and the cabin crew are excellent, far better than any other airline I've used, despite the way the management appears to try to run a 'Business Prevention Department' to thwart them. Baggage tracking is another matter and a total disaster.
Agree completely. And I'm afraid to say, as an IT person, you can add the BA website designers to the Business Prevention personnel.

fyrefli

2nd Jan 2008, 16:01

Hmm, yes. I'll try not to be too harsh, bealine but, as often happens, I agree with what PAXboy and F3G have said. And in addition to a) actually being meaningfully contactable and b) incentivising me to tell you I'm not coming by actually allowing me at least some of my money back, how's about this one:

If my flight home for Xmas (or whenever, but that is rather fresh in the memory) is delayed because it hasn't even left the previous airport yet, you allow me to get to the airport in time for when it's going to be boarding, not for four hours earlier when it should have been? :) I'm not talking about an aircraft going tech on the apron - I'm talking about when the delay is inevitable and known in advance.

13Alpha

2nd Jan 2008, 16:19

Ummm 13Alpha, I think that you will find the airlines are doing the exact opposite. They are hoping to make OLCI compulsory and reduce the staff at the airport to the minimum. Ideally, in their minds, the staff there will have no other function than to check pieces of paper, weigh bags and invite the customer to telephone the airline! In other words, they will have no discretionary powers.

Yes, agreed. I was just pointing out that online checkin doesn't really benefit either the customer or the frontline staff. Clearly it makes sense to the cost accountants, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

13Alpha

13Alpha

2nd Jan 2008, 16:38

Originally Posted by radeng http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3808638#post3808638)
I will defend BA upon one count though - I find the staff at check in and the cabin crew are excellent, far better than any other airline I've used, despite the way the management appears to try to run a 'Business Prevention Department' to thwart them. Baggage tracking is another matter and a total disaster.

Yes, that's also my experience. It's almost as if there are two BAs - "Frontline BA" and "Back office BA". With different objectives and speaking different languages.

Frontline BA has to deal with the everyday consequences of the failures of Back office BA. Meanwhile Back Office BA complains that Frontline BA costs too much and wants to subcontract it all to someone else.

But it would be unfair to single out BA, I'm sure other legacy airlines are just as bad. It's what happens when big companies get old and forget what made them big companies in the first place.

13Alpha

pax2908

2nd Jan 2008, 17:16

PAXboy, you said "this loss of customer service [...] there is nothing that you or I can do about it". Well, very little, I agree; "nothing" - would not go so far. But I don't have a good idea yet. As a passenger, even if I travel very often, my main worry is to get my real job done, indeed. So in the end I implicitely rely on bealine and his/her colleagues, to try limit as much as possible this degradation of customer service. After all, we as passengers will not go on strike even if we are unhappy with the "back office" objectives.

PAXboy

2nd Jan 2008, 17:28

pamann

2nd Jan 2008, 17:41

13Alpha

I was booked on a BA flight yesterday (from LCY) which was ultimately cancelled.

If that was the evening BA departure (around 7ish I think) then it did operate but from Southend. I only know this as a friend was trying to get on BA from LCY-GLA and was offered it from the BA ticket desk at City Airport, just a thought that it's not always pointless to go to City airport first when the fog comes down.

13Alpha

2nd Jan 2008, 17:47

13Alpha

Quote:
I was booked on a BA flight yesterday (from LCY) which was ultimately cancelled.
If that was the evening BA departure (around 7ish I think) then it did operate but from Southend. I only know this as a friend was trying to get on BA from LCY-GLA and was offered it from the BA ticket desk at City Airport, just a thought that it's not always pointless to go to City airport first when the fog comes down.

Actually I was booked on the earlier EDI flight (1720 if i remember correctly) - which really was cancelled.

But it's a good point, I've been "bus"ed to Southend from LCY in the past (when the ILS was being fixed a couple of years ago).

13Alpha

13Alpha

2nd Jan 2008, 18:29

13Alpha, yes, noted that you meant that OLCI gave little to clients. Also, certainly the case that old companies forget what made them great, it happens all the time. One of the current candidates is VS.

I was thinking the same myself.

I wonder if part of it is that the back office staff have seen a faster turnover than front office? Could it be that the recruitment and training of front line staff is still 'old school'? That is, 'look after the customer'? If so, then we shall really notice it when bealine and colleagues leave or retire. He is one of the most reliable informants here and often takes a pounding for his troubles.

Yes, anyone flying BA from EDI or GLA has already seen what happens when the experienced BA frontline people leave (in their case, involuntarily :rolleyes: ).

One of the other big problems for airlines is that the back office staff are sooooo far away from the customers. It's not just in the office block across from the terminal, but they are in call and data centres across the country and do not see the problems every day. Nor, I'll bet, do their managers.

Very true. When my bag unexpectedly went from LGW to EDI via Madrid and Amsterdam recently, the BA staff at LGW told me there was "no point" calling the BA baggage handling call centre in Newcastle because they "know nothing". And why would they, unless their managers made sure they spent at least some time at an airport finding out how the baggage system works ?

(Slight thread drift)
One area where I now work, takes me to locations where the office block is sometimes close coupled with the venue for their customers and others, where the office is 1,000+ yards down the drive. Colleagues and I have noticed that, if the staff walk out of their office and are immediately surrounded by customers - they are more receptive to problems. When the working area is remote, then the office staff tend to be remote. Of course, an airline cannot get all it's staff through the terminal every quarter - but someone has to accurately represent the problem.

A real difficulty is that most large companies have, over the past 15 years, split themselves into discreet sections and given more autonomy. That means that they concentrate on just fixing their own problems and are less concerned about the complete picture. That leaves it to the senior managers to link it all together. Ooops, sounds like another problem. :uhoh:

I'm an IT consultant and also see this with my clients :uhoh:, and, in fact, my employer. :rolleyes: When I worked in telecoms second line support, the direct contact I had with customers who had experienced problems made me significantly more motivated to get the IT systems correct :ouch:

In most industries there are examples of companies which do get it right. It's all comes down to decent leadership and making sure the whole company shares a few common objectives.

My impression in aviation is that easyJet are doing things pretty well in this respect. Their staff seem happy, seem to work as a team (back and front office) and they seem able to cope well when things do go wrong.

13Alpha

radeng

3rd Jan 2008, 10:28

To give some idea of back office at BA......I had a flight the other year where I was sitting next to a BA FO on his way to LHR to take up duty. He told me that a couple of weeks previously, he'd gone along to head office (Waterside or Riverside or whateve it's called) for his medical. Having some time to kill, he went into the canteen for a coffee, dressed in uniform, and someone asked him what work he did for the airline.....

Final 3 Greens

3rd Jan 2008, 11:51

My impression in aviation is that easyJet are doing things pretty well in this respect

Good point.

I like the BA product, but not the service.

I like the easyJet service, but not the product.

On balance, I tend to use easyJet over BA, which tells me that I rate service as more important than product on short haul flights.

2infinity

3rd Jan 2008, 17:17

Sometimes things do work out for the best...

Was booked on one of the fog-bound BA flights LHR to ABZ on 23.12.07. Just leaving home when I received a text from BA to warn the flight cancelled. Went home again.

Spent 30 mins calling Exec Club...eventually got through to a person who says will re-book me on first flight the next morning. [Having looked at Met Office website, whilst waiting for call to be answered, this doesn’t inspire much confidence.]
“Hang on”...says I, what about Gatwick this afternoon...any spaces on their remaining flights to ABZ?
He checked and there was. I legged it to LGW... and made it home earlier that I should have made it ex LHR.

I got lucky. Many didn’t and had I accepted the offer of the next day’s flight, there was every chance I would have spent Christmas day at the Penta, or whatever it calls itself these days.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it helps to know your route, your options and be persistent. Also, IMHO, do your best to get the person who answers the phone on-side when your call is eventually taken. My chap was (understandably) stressed having had to deal with a torrent of calls; trying to help him work the problem worked in my favour.

Had the flight been with Easyjet and the fog been at Luton...then I would have been stuffed.

Hence, I choose BA over Easy for Service and Product.

[Off thread, but the day the LGW-ABZ route is binned later this year will be a sad one. Another kick in the teeth for those who use BA from ABZ regularly to London now that all the wonderful BA check in staff at ABZ have been removed and replaced by automatons. I wonder whether I will be able to post such a pro-BA post after next Christmas’s fog saga?]

13Alpha

3rd Jan 2008, 18:57

Nice one - glad you got home for Christmas.

The main reason I opted for easyJet from Luton was because BA DIDN'T text me to say my LCY flight had been cancelled, nor did they say anything on their website about their LCY flights. If they had, I'd have been more inclined to give BA from LGW a shot. The fact that you got a text about your LHR flight but I didn't just confirms my suspicion that BA's LCY operation isn't properly hooked up with mainline BA.

For sure easy can be affected by weather too, but because they don't operate from LHR, and don't sacrifice their domestic operation at the first sign of disruption to their international flights :rolleyes:, I'm more inclined to trust them to get me home when the weather's bad or there's any other disruption. They were still operating all their flights from Luton in the fog on the 23rd, except (ironically) for their ABZ flight.

As you say though, if you travel frequently on a route, you'll probably have a better chance of anticipating events than a guy in a call centre, and work out the best option for you.

13Alpha

marlowe

4th Jan 2008, 16:26

13Alpha what you have to remember with "BA" at LCY is that it is Cityflyer and not mainline! Up until Cityflyer was brought into existance in March 2007 BA didnt know where LCY was, they never actively promoted it on the website and never advertised it at all, so dont be suprised if when you try and contact BA about LCY flights they dont know what you are talking about!!

2infinity

4th Jan 2008, 16:38

13Alpha.

Your points are well made and I can see why, for you at least, it makes sense to go Easy.

There is a nice typo (am giving them the benefit of the doubt) in a leader in today’s P and J which states “Following from the pre-Christmas announcement that BA is cancelling its Aberdeen to Heathrow service in the spring.....”

Were I to believe everything that this bastion of journalistic accuracy :ugh: was printing then I would be following your advice and going with Easyjet myself!

Here’s to a fog-free 2008!

2infinity

bealine

4th Jan 2008, 21:59

To get back to the OP, I understand BA will have a solution come Terminal 5.

ALL passengers who have not presented a valid boarding card with all formalities completed (APIS Data, Reservation Change Fee collected, Large Pushchairs have been checked in, Passport and Visa check etc) at the BAA Security "Compliance" point by 35 minutes before departure will be automatically denied access through security and automatically offloaded from the flight - No Exceptions!

That will give sufficient time to accommodate any standby or waitlist status passengers who will then have a 5 minute "window" to pass the "compliance" point.

Whilst I am not a lover of rigid rules, I can understand the logic behind this procedure, especially as we are trying to ensure all passengers who reach the boarding gate are ready to board without any of the nonsense of entering APIS details etc

radeng

5th Jan 2008, 08:02

Bealine,
What happens when having got to security complete with boarding card etc at say 50 minutes before departure, you're still in line to get through security10 minutes after departure time? Whose responsibility does that become?
Cynicism suggests that whoever takes responsibility, it won't be BAA!

pax2908

5th Jan 2008, 08:31

So bealine, if I understand correctly, the "compliance point" is a concept invented by the new procedure, in order to ensure that all PAX are physically present at the airport and ready to proceed through security? Who operates this "compliance point"? It looks similar to check-in, does it not? Plus, in addition of the boarding pass, one will now need a "token" or some sticker to let one go through security?

bealine

5th Jan 2008, 09:20

The compliance point will be operated by BAA Security.
As always, the onus is on you, the passenger, to have completed all required processes and passed the compliance point ahead of STD -35 minutes. You are responsible for allowing sufficient time to queue (although our managers tell us there will be no queues in T5 :rolleyes: )

WHBM

5th Jan 2008, 10:20

I really can't quite see that BA, even in their worst Waterworld moments, will accept this gross restriction and denial of service to their paying pax at T5 when their competitors at other terminals will have no such thing. Going domestic to Scotland it will be bad enough having the extra time out to T5 compared to BMI at T1 (taxis will be at least £5 more each way from Central London to T5) without some jobsworthness that BMI don't have.

It also seems a sure thing, if implemented as described, for a challenge in the courts if anyone is denied boarding and their ticket money forfeited, through the Unfair Contract Terms Act.

radeng

5th Jan 2008, 10:32

Bealine,
>(although our managers tell us there will be no queues in T5 )<
Hahahaha! And pigs might fly! If one believes that, one will buy gold bricks from men met in pubs.
Seriously, it can be major problem, and a bit more trawling of the lines when they get very long is really needed. I usually figure on being at the airport a minimum of 2 hours before departure: this can be a problem at times when you are told that check in isn't open for your flight if you then spend 2 hours waiting to get through security.
Admittedly. BA are hampered by the fact that they're the major user of Heathrow and have to put up with BAA! If BA ran the airport as well, it couldn't be any worse, and conceivably could be better...

bealine

5th Jan 2008, 21:25

It also seems a sure thing, if implemented as described, for a challenge in the courts if anyone is denied boarding and their ticket money forfeited, through the Unfair Contract Terms Act.
It could, of course, be challenged, but I don't believe the courts would view it as an Unfair Contract. Ryanair and EasyJet both have some pretty harsh clauses in their conditions of carriage, but have been allowed to continue unhindered!
BA's Conditions of Carriage, to which you agree when you purchase your ticket:

6. Check-in and boarding
6a) Check-in deadlines
Check-in deadlines vary and your journey will be smoother if you allow plenty of time to check in. Please find out the check-in deadlines for your flights before you travel and keep to them. We may also tell you a time by which you must present yourself for check-in.
6b) The check-in deadline for your first flight
We or our authorised agents will tell you the check-in deadline for your first flight with us. Check-in deadlines for all our flights are set out in our website www.ba.com and you can also ask us or our authorised agents for details at any time.
6c) You must check in by the check-in deadline
If you do not complete the check-in process by the check-in deadline, we may decide to cancel your reservation and not carry you. By completing the check-in process we mean that you have received your boarding pass for your flight.
6d) You must arrive at the boarding gate on time
You must be present at the boarding gate not later than the time we give you when you check in. We may decide not to carry you if you fail to arrive at the boarding gate on time.
6e) We are not liable if you fail to meet deadlines
We will not be liable to you for any loss or expense you suffer if you fail to meet check-in deadlines, fail to present yourself for check-in on time (if we tell you a time) or fail to be at the boarding gate on time.

Personally, I don't see what is so unfair or unreasonable in the Conditions of Carriage. What you are objecting to, as indeed I do, is the rigidity and absoluteness of any IT based solutions! The BAA "Jobsworth" will actually have absolutely no discretionary powers and neither will any of the front-line British Airways' staff.

But then, this is what is creeping in all over the place - it started with Speed Cameras, TV Licence monitoring, Road Tax monitoring and now Councils monitoring what rubbish we tip!

Computers are the curse of society - no wonder Islam calls them the devil's work (but the clever Imams tell their followers to put them to work for the good of mankind!)

H G Wells' 1984 is upon us 24 years late!

WHBM

5th Jan 2008, 22:40

Computers are the curse of society - no wonder Islam calls them the devil's work
Ah yes - but they have long kept me in a comfortable career, let alone a PA28 for weekends ! And I suspect they contribute far more to SLF loads in aviation than just about any other business sector. Oh, and then there's PPRuNe ...... :)

PAXboy

6th Jan 2008, 01:31

WHBMI really can't quite see that BA, even in their worst Waterworld moments, will accept this gross restriction and denial of service to their paying pax at T5 when their competitors at other terminals will have no such thing.Actually, my cynical view is that BA thought this one up and gave it to BAA to implement.

Firstly, that allows BA to blame others if it does not work but, mainly, I'll bet BA thinks that this is the way they will streamline the pax and get both a more cost effective operation and a fabulous on-time departure record for them to boast about in the advertising! They will have boosted this idea in their plans to the main board to be THE NEXT BIG THING and and that ALL THE OTHERS WILL COPY US WHEN THEY SEE HOW CLEVER WE HAVE BEEN.

I know, I've been in commercial life too long and I need to understand the beauty that there really is in human nature ...