Seniority List - What & Why

[Buttie Box]

Well, it's official. I kept a copy of the CX seniority list from the end of August. I said I'd get back to you if anything had changed, and can now let you know nothing has. My number has remained the same, which means either no-one has left/retired (unlikely), people are being hired ahead of me (very unlikely) or the list is not being updated. I've heard various rumours, from a wish to hide the size of our pilot body to preparing spaces to integrate KA pilots with our own (unlikely) but can anyone please shed light on:

What's going on?

Why is the list not being renewed?

BB

[fire wall]

From D. H. , personell / fleet office and trng dept all have files which reference sen#. As it was continually changing it was becoming administratively difficult so now you keep the same number infinitum.

laughable isnt it

There goes your chance of getting to # 1 Buttie...... bugger !

[Speedbrake744]

Yes this is certainly a complete joke. I have been watching it for a while now and noticed when someone leaves or retires etc they do actually take there name off very quickly and also add the new joiners fairly promptly as well. In any other company when someone leaves everybody bumps up one closer to number one!! Not the case in CX of course. Got to be difficult!! I spoke the Dont Know How and he said that the number you have now is the one you keep for your whole career. I told him I already have an ERN# and a Licence# that tell you who I am. A seniority number is a completely different thing and allows us to see how close to to the top of the pile we are!!! He sat there a smiled blah blah blah..This is a complete joke, I suggest we all complain to the fleet office. Imagine in 25 years.#22oo could be the most senior guy/girl in the company and still be refered to as #2200. Try explaining that to the rest of the planet..!!

Merry Xmas all

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Another devisive measure designed by Kim Jong Phil.

[leet]

thats really complete bxllox..the reality is that they haven't removed the ones who left the company, I personally know a few mates who have left the company since like May and they are still on the seniority list...

[LOTW]

Yes this is certainly a complete joke. I have been watching it for a while now and noticed when someone leaves or retires etc they do actually take there name off very quickly and also add the new joiners fairly promptly as well. In any other company when someone leaves everybody bumps up one closer to number one!! Not the case in CX of course. Got to be difficult!! I spoke the Dont Know How and he said that the number you have now is the one you keep for your whole career. I told him I already have an ERN# and a Licence# that tell you who I am. A seniority number is a completely different thing and allows us to see how close to to the top of the pile we are!!! He sat there a smiled blah blah blah..This is a complete joke, I suggest we all complain to the fleet office. Imagine in 25 years.#22oo could be the most senior guy/girl in the company and still be refered to as #2200. Try explaining that to the rest of the planet..!!

Then CX could hired someone, legally and give them a senior seniority number also paying them A scale. Since you are stuck at the bottom of the list of numbers, CX could legally say your a bottom feeder.

What is the Management point of view for this subject at hand?

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Merry X-mas to Denly Dont know How and The CX Management. You all deserve a great big bonus. :D Ive been around long enough to know you deserve it more than anybody. Always taking care of your staff - only wanting the best - always. :ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

What is the Management point of view for this subject at hand?

I would guess his response is.... "To my bonus... chin chin.. old boy..":E

[ACMS]

what a load of bollocks.
Every other career Airline in the free world can work a number system ok.
It's just numbers on an Excel spreadsheet isn't it? don't the spreadsheets re-calculate for you if you delete someone? mmmm
CX is trying to hide something.................no doubt about it.
WHERE IS THE AOA ON THIS MATTER?
As far as I'm concerned this is just not acceptable from a major career Airline, for god sake this is not an aeroclub.:{


I think I'll ring Denly up after Xmas and ask him exactly how many numbers are ahead of me and he'd better bloody well know the answer...........

[ACMS]

Doesn't our COS state something about Seniority? Therefore CX must by law maintain a seniority list for the purposes of promotion etc????????
Even if they are too stupid/incompetent to update the list numbers it still should be provided on request. We can count out the slots ourselves.

What do the legal eagles out there think?
What would a Judge think about this?

[Jerry Scribbler]

From the top floor: Dragonair's four-hundred-odd pilots will be slotted into the Cathay seniority system based upon a formula which will see all of their captains in the top half of the Cathay system, and their FO's in the second half.

[ACMS]

Like F*** they will.
Just let em try.
Then they'll see blood on the streets.
All KA Pilot's should have their positions protected, BUT they ALL go on the bottom of our list on the exact day WE BOUGHT KA.
I'll be F***** if I'll let a KA Pilot have a higher priority ( through date of joining ) for staff travel, basings etc. Sorry but it ain't gunna happen.

What's next? We buy Oasis and all the x CX Captains get their old number back??????????? I don't think so Jimmy.

[Outtahere]

ACMS- who owns the Cx seniority list, the pilots or the company? I suspect that unless you can show you have been disadvantaged by a merged list you'd have a hard time stopping it. Remember, the KA pilots are bringing their own aeroplanes to the group. An outsiders viewpoint.

[Jerry Scribbler]

Actually, my friend, we came up with this solution in consutation with IFALPA, and through precident set by numerous IFALPA aligned airlines. I'm sure you'll get used to it. In the case where an airline purchases another airline which has not only its own crews and aircraft, but also airline specific routes, this is the accepted procedure for seniority merger.

[missingblade]

I can see some very sour KA FO's if this happens - their time to upgrade will be significantly lengthened whereas CX FO's should see the left seat quicker?
Also KA FO will have improved lifestyle if he gets to fly CX longhaul - not so for CX guy.....is my logic correct here..? Had some red wine seeing that it's the jolly season and all.
SO's are screwed anyway so I dont see much effect on them.
???

[OldChinaHand]

Jerry Scribbler, your statement is worthy of John Wayne. That statement must come from the top floor of your Teutonic Castle, or perhaps something more tribal from your African days. Dream on.

[BusyB]

Someone went fishing and got some really big bites today.:D

[Cider30]

Jerry,

I wonder if USair and Ex-TWA share you view.

CX / KA was not a merger. CX bought KA. I think the best KA pilots can hope for is base, seat and equipment protection.

Not to open another can of worms, but how do you think ASL guys would respond to your proposal. I don't see a lot of differences "merging" their list with CX and a possible KA add-on to CX list.

That being said, the company will most likely do whatever they damn please.

Back to the eggnog (well spiked of course) :}:}

Merry christmas

Cider30

[Jerry Scribbler]

It's a sardine run out there today. I saw a few barracuda leap from the water. And you . . . ? :ok:

[ACMS]

No disadvantage for me??????????
Let me see here.....................
Loss of Seniority for ALL CX Staff Travel
Loss of Seniority for Aircraft switching
Loss of Seniority for taking a Base
Loss of Seniority for becoming a Training Captain ( if I wanted to )
etc etc
Seniority is everything to Airline Pilot's, and you know it.
WE BOUGHT KA, not the other way around.

[Jerry Scribbler]

Lemme draw you a picture: It's a p!ss-take. Keep your panties on. That's why a few people have referred to "going fishing" and "getting bites."

[Fly747]

It may be fishing but there is also no smoke without fire. I am a sad git with nothing better to do today due to the roster so I'll respond.
The financial mechanism of KA's transfer to be fully in the CX fold has nothing to do with it, i.e. bought, merged etc. Try looking at European law on the subject and the UK legistlation on TUPE (Google it up). You may be surprised by what you see, putting employees at the bottom of the seniority is illegal.
There is also the small problem of retaining 400+ pilots if they do try insulting them in that way and/or condemning them to fly into China forever.
I can only see benefits for all in combining the seniority lists. I cannot see how it will effect anyone's command or other prospects given that the overall fleet will be bigger.
Discuss.

[BusyB]

Jerry, Sorry you gave up fishing. I was quite enjoying the spectacle.

Yes, there are a number of successful seniority mergers. Check out ANZ for one. They protect bidding rights for each airline in conjoined lists whilst only people that join after that date are totally free to bid as their seniority grows.

Merry Xmas to all ish and fishermen.:}

[Speedbrake744]

Lets not forget what this thread is all about..Having a seniority list at CX that actually reflects the true picture with the correct numbers etc..Leave the KA stuff aside..If our numbers are linked to our training files as DNH says and this leads to supposed difficulty in updating there system then lets see them change that. Any simple speadsheet program can add and subtract correctly and reflect the correct numbers. I guess they just dont want us to know how many (or in this case how few) pilots we really have ie 2156 actually meens 1950?? Lets stop worrying about a KA merger to the list and get something done about it..

[abc1]

And one wonders why,how etc.
Self inflicted comes to mind.
Management are probably watching this debate and laughing ther socks off.Divide and rule.
More seniority anyone?

[Numero Crunchero]

CX have had around 40 pilots retire per year for the last few years. I may be mistaken but I thought computer technology was improving and more able to take account of unexpected 'departures'. So if you wish to believe that it is too complicated for CX to deal with changing seniority numbers that is up to you. They have been dealing with it very well for the last 15 years at least!

[Jerry Scribbler]

Sorry you gave up fishing. I was quite enjoying the spectacle

Me too. It must be the time of year.

Merry Christmas.

[Cider30]

Fly747,

Try looking at European law on the subject and the UK legistlation on TUPE (Google it up). You may be surprised by what you see, putting employees at the bottom of the seniority is illegal.


I won't speculate on the legal aspect, just state the fact that it happens in NAM all the time.


There is also the small problem of retaining 400+ pilots if they do try insulting them in that way and/or condemning them to fly into China forever.



And just what was their future holding for them before CX came around ?

I can only see benefits for all in combining the seniority lists. I cannot see how it will effect anyone's command or other prospects given that the overall fleet will be bigger.


If some KA pilot would like to take a base outside of HKG and he's been longer in CX than me (not that this is about me) don't you think that would affect me. Unless all KA pilots stay in HKG, where the KA fleet is based, I think it will have a huge impact on CX pilots.

This is why a fencing agreement, protection on fleet, seat and base is the reasonable way to solve a merger. Ka pilots will still retain seniority on the own equipment etc. and CX retains seniority on theirs. You bid to the "other" companys equipment, base, seat, whatever it will be with less seniority.

It leaves no one without the same options as before the merger. And it leaves everybody with new options, but at the bottom of the list.

Cider30

[ACMS]

Exactly Cider.
I will NEVER ACCEPT ANY KA PILOT taking a seniority number in front of me, EVER.
However they should have their own progression in KA protected.
But they can forget getting Staff Travel ( on CX ) and Basing opportunities ( in CX ) ahead of CX Pilot's.
Sorry, but if I wanted to join KA I would have.
I joined CX a long long time ago and don't see why I should lose out on this just because we bought KA a few months back.

[OldChinaHand]

But remember, TUPE regulations only apply to Dragonairs FCS Manchester based Crews. Scribbler plays that fishing game all the time. Always the pretender.

[Jerry Scribbler]

Try not to let your access to the MODCP and the recent TUPE discussions delude you to grandeur.

[And Then]

I will NEVER ACCEPT ANY KA PILOT taking a seniority number in front of me, EVER.

But entertain me. What are you going to do ? Better still. What have you ever done ?

Frankly, I reckon KA pilots are better off seperate. We have a good professional crew. No need to dilute it from your end.

Negotiations have been pleasing for both sides- with the DPA considered reasonable and workable compared to the AOA. Our next round of talks is the mutual interest of expansion. With CX pilots mumbling contract compliance and other irresponsible activities; we may get a fair chunk of it !

[Fly747]

ACMS so "we" bought KA, who is we? You are just an employee same as the KA pilots. CX already owned a good chunk of KA. It was just a few very rich men juggling the chips around a bit.
If you are never going to have a KA pilot ahead of you then where are you going?
Like And Then alludes to I think KA are just about to do rather well out of it.
A happy and interesting New Year to all.

[cpdude]

The enemy is not the KA pilot but CX management. The last thing I need is strife in the cockpit and I for one will not accept it from anyone!

KA brothers come on over and lets fight together against this selfish and irresponsible management.:ok:

[And Then]

The enemy is not the KA pilot but CX management.

By the looks of this thread the Cathay pilot is the enemy. The enemy to the KA pilot and an enemy to himself.

KA pilots could be better served staying seperate. Undercutting CX pilots with a lower cost base ( KA B Scale ) and a 'relatively' quickly expandable pilot group; small scale efficiencies too etc.

A poor deal on integration will result in another heavy round of pilot departures. I can't see any benefit to CX management except by diluting the DPA- and if the next six months brings new found efficiencies they may not really want that anyway.

I'm happy seperate unless mature sentiment emerges from the CX pilot group.

[ACMS]

what have you ever done?
Excuse me???????????? What???????

What a load of bollocks you KA Pilot's talk.

shaking my head...............


Unbelievable, next you'll want to fly to Oz

[And Then]

Unbelievable, next you'll want to fly to Oz

Well that's not up to you or me is it ? But by your tone and logic earlier. There would be "blood on the streets" if KA were to be given such an opportunity.

What I don't like about you and your ilk is that the only time you will get a pair of balls is if you can level it at another pilot group. Bully tactics from a comfort zone- perhaps like your training set up I hear so much moaning about.

Your hopes, dreams, ambitions, financial security is CX. Your comfort zone in fact. That's your vulnerability. And a naive arrogance.

KA pilots will continue to walk if any situation or scenario untenable. And if CX wanted that to happen they wouldn't have offered the near 20% payrise.

Tidy up your attitude friend.

[Numero Crunchero]

I have no idea if or when an integration will occur. But as of 1/4/08 KA pilots earn the same as CX pilots. If rumours of their improvements to education and LEP housing are true, then KA pilots will earn/cost more than CX pilots.

[ACMS]

I know things at KA have been woeful and that is why you guys are all leaving and I take my hat off to you all. You have big balls and this is the ONLY reason you are getting somewhere.
What I don't like about you and your ilk is that the only time you will get a pair of balls is if you can level it at another pilot group.
At CX I have been a member of the AOA for 14+ years through thick and thin, I supported the 49ers financially as long as I could and more. I will continue to encourage my fellow Pilot's to join OUR Union for the betterment of our Profession. I know our Union is weak in a lot of areas and that's because of the slack people that wont join thinning our numbers to a joke level. This I have to accept as a reality.
But don't tell me I don't have any balls buddy, if we had a strong solid Union then I'll be among the first to do what the majority vote for, no doubt about that.
This is not the first Airline Union I've been a part of, I was in the Oz 89 dispute and lost my job, and I didn't run back and scab. So don't tell me I have no balls.
As much as I respect your postion why should I be happy to allow someone from an Airline Cathay/Swire bought to attain a seniority number ahead of me? What planet do you think I come from? How could I react any other way to a loss of bidding and staff travel rights?
So if we didn't buy you then what happened exactly? do enlighten me.

And It's not like I don't want you guys to join our list, I hope you do. But why should I lose out? Even if it is only 100 or so numbers, it's still a lot.
Seems to me KA Pilot's have a LOT more to gain than CX Pilot's

[And Then]

Numero Crunchero: I have no idea if or when an integration will occur. But as of 1/4/08 KA pilots earn the same as CX pilots. If rumours of their improvements to education and LEP housing are true, then KA pilots will earn/cost more than CX pilots.

What ? Cost more than A Scale to 65 ?

But seriously. When you consider all the factors and the liklihood of overtime on a short haul line. I am told there is still disparity ( acknowledged by CX management ) in favour of CX pilots. The gap has closed granted.

This without considering I have a B Scale A330 Captain's package. As do the bulk of my colleagues. Whereas you NC, have an A scale A330 package- and what % of your colleagues do ?

[And Then]

ACMS

By your admission there. KA pilots have big balls. QED really. If integration is untenable for me. I will go. If you lost a 'single slot' you wouldn't leave your comfort zone of the last 14 years.

Yes. You will get nasty. Rally a fractured pilot group in a direction that will be a catalyst for more eventual disunity and power to management.

Suggesting KA pilots have the most to gain is utter garbage. Frankly, I believe we have the most to lose. Possible dilution of our unity and good cockpit spirit and culture. In a move toward the fractured, spiteful and pathetically self serving psyche evidenced amongst the CX pilots.

If I stole your logic too. Staying seperate would maintain our access to our fast growing region. Where growth needs to be expanded providing rapid and preserving fast promotional opportunites for our pilots. It doesn't work like that though. CX aircraft will expand over our traditional routes and us over theirs.But if I was a goose I would suggest 'blood in the streets' everytime a CX 777 runs up to PEK or PVG.

Staying seperate could facilitate a grab at a number of group expansion opportunities. Out of CC and with a new found efficiencies. Coupled with a high success rate in command upgrades. KA will be a bit of a testing ground for CX management- if we can expand fast we will. A junior DPA member is better served in this scenario.

We bought you attitude will cost you dearly. Even to suggest this line of thought opens the very vulnerabilities of your pilot group. Have a look at every one of the industrial battles you have been routed in. And I know this means a lot to you; but what has been the standing on 89 of the two pilots groups ( KA & CX ) ?

Yes. KA pilots could be giving up a great deal with integration. Even reasonable offers could be detrimental to DPA membership. But sometimes, sacrifices need to be made for the greater- group. This last statement, if fact, a logic to suggest management would thwart attempts to integrate happily.

[404 Titan]

And Then
This without considering I have a B Scale A330 Captain's package. As do the bulk of my colleagues. Whereas you NC, have an A scale A330 package- and what % of your colleagues do ?
As do the bulk of my collegues. There are about 400 “A” scalers left in CX. The other 1800 are “B” scale.

CX are looking at various ways to combine the two seniority lists without pissing off one party more than the other, after all they have just tried putting out an inferno in KA, the results of which have yet to be seen. They don’t want to start an even bigger one in CX. It would appear that they are favouring a similar arrangement to what happened when Qantas took over Australian in the early 90’s. All those that joined before the takeover will maintain their seniority in their respective airlines. Those that joined after the takeover will be on a common seniority list based on DOJ.

[ACMS]

I think if you open up your eyes you'll realise that most KA Crew have a lot to gain.................
Most CX Crew have nothing to gain by picking up a white A330 to PVG.
And a lot to lose if they have to go behind KA Crew at the staff travel conter for those illusive J class seats to home.
And that's not to mention basing opportunities.
Don't worry, CX S/O's wont be able to take your promotions, you will be protected.
So ANSWER MY QUESTION?
So if we didn't buy you then what happened exactly? do enlighten me
Up until now the main reason a lot of KA Crew find it easy to walk is that they have only invested 3 to 5 years in HK, the COS wasn't that good and the flying crap, so they are not giving up a lot to leave.
On the other hand a lot of CX Crew have 10+ years here, the opportunity of basings ( that's why most join CX ) and fairly good flying. So we don't just want to throw all that away and walk.

[Numero Crunchero]

All future commands are on B scales - whether that be in KA or CX. So there is no point comparing the cost of my A scale to KA B scales. You are talking of bringing 'cheap' KA crew to replace "expensive" CX crew. Given that KA earn more than CX B scalers, how is that cheaper than using our 'cheaper' B scalers?

Rather than focus on any possible disadvantages that a merger might result in, focus on this: over the next 10 years there will be 500 less commands, 500 more senior pilots at staff travel and up to 500 less basings available due to the introduction of RA65.

We seem to be running around blaming everyone but the culprit for our current problems. KA and any possible merger are not the problem.

Over the last 5 or so years - KA has had no payrise until now - that payrise is worth approx 20% when you count improvements to conditions as well. EK have given over 40% payrises. QF have given an effective payrise well over 20% when you count salary and increases in MGH etc and we are still waiting on the results of EBA 8. The rumour mill has it that EK will increase salaries by 30-40% next April.


B scalers in CX get 3%.

2008 CX payscales are equivalent to what CX paid in 1992. At the zoologist's and mathematician's proposed rate of increase, B scales will finally reach A scales around 2015.

Ok, any questions on who the bad guy is?

[MAX]

Battle the hard yard boys and good luck to all.

Those with NO seniority and half a brain have their eye on the ball.

The junior brigade can actually smell the coffee and are packing their bags with their collective cv's.

It's going to be very interesting times for those with enough seniority to care.

MAX:cool:

[cpdude]

So why don't you join EK, Numero ?

What kind of question is that? Are you new to the world of aviation and seniority lists? Do you really think it is viable for a 15+ year individual to change airlines and jump to the bottom of the list unless they were gaining in location...liking going home!

I don't think NC is from Dubai!:}

[Ex Douglas Driver]

From D. H. , personell / fleet office and trng dept all have files which reference sen#. As it was continually changing it was becoming administratively difficult so now you keep the same number infinitum.

Must have a hard time filing stuff, as now there's double-ups with the seniority numbers. Have a look at the end of the -400 freighter lists and you'll see them starting again with #3, 4 etc (ASL guys?):suspect:

[ACMS]

At a recent Fleet Forum a manager said all will be fixed soon. "Admin error, the list WILL be updated".

We shall see..............

[volarecantare]

ACMS,

I find your post 39 very revealing. As I was reading the thread the question a thought entered my head "I bet he is Australian" I then chided myself for making such an assumption, then I get to your post where your tone was viscious wounded and nasty, bullish and with an implied threat regarding giving jumpseats to OZ to anyone who challenges you. The fact is I believe many pilots who joined CX would not have had the required experience to join KA. Those guys have also done their time and had their challenges. The WE BOUGHT THEM, hyperbolic crap is immature.

I never really had an opinion about Australians until I came to HK and was shocked at meeting not all but a significant number of Australian Pilots. You refer to the very sad chapter in Australian Aviation and your role within resulting in you loosing your job. You then refer to Scabs.The loss you had was very traumatic but like it or not there are other perspectives on what happened around that time. From a neutral perspective it may not been all seen in the same light you project. The "pain body" of many of you guys carry around while understandable is actually very distructive not only to you but to many others. To even use the word scab about another individual is inexcusable as is threatening and bullying. That "f**ck everyone because I was hurt "attitude is childish and when a group feel that way it is dangerous.
With such an attitude you leave no other choice to a mgmt body except to treat you like crap.

[Loopdeloop]

vc
I agree with much of what you say, in particular I dislike the overuse of the word scab. However, I think that ACMS has used the word correctly in this instance!

[volarecantare]

LDL Sorry to disagree but words like that and attitudes that fuel it are NEVER justifiable regardless of emotion fueled opinion about another person. Fact is on this issue like many others, everyone wants what they want and when something doesn't suit them they cry foul. In recent history even union members who were negotiating against certain contract and being offers and whilst negotiations were in practice they demanded no pilots indicate interest, just as they are now To all pilots and then THEY THEMSELVES negotiated the deals , resigned the unions and took up the places- why because it suited them and their lifestyles there's integrity for you...

Pilots for the first time in many years are in a strong position in that the industry is short of them. Lets drop the rara school boy bully boy tactics and move on. The more of this short sited living in the past confrontational attitude with the THEM and US tones the BIGGER THE WASTE and damage done. Expect the worse and it tends to happen.

From what I can see the KA guys have a big dilemma here, if the Captains stay here and CX keep the operations separate they are stuck in the hell of flying into China indefinatly. If a co pilot moves to the Manchester freighter he/she extends their command upgrade time to about 10 years. However if someone is ready to leave HK and go home and are a Captain then its a good deal, risks and all and very fair to a bloke or gal that has accrued thousand of hours and gone though the stress of command possibly at least once before coming t KA and then again in KA. Meanwhile CX manage to keep very experienced guys that may otherwise walk, and expand the fleet, THAT is good for the company.


All that said its time CX was run by people who actually were passionate about the business and knew the art of
1.Attracting and hiring the right people in the first place NOT just the cheapest or most available.
2. Making those people feel valued and a part of the company and its solutions.
3.Treated them with respect for the professionals they are ensured their dignity was preserved and created an atmosphere of trust instead of dear.

EVEN if money is their ONLY goal, they would make MORE in the long run if they ran a company like this....

[WTB]

Re the freighter offer to KA - it would be a start to provide the COS, Payscales and more than 3 weeks in which to make up your mind....unbelievable:ugh: