Night Qualification currency

[modelman]

I have just started my NQ (1 hour in the circuit dual) and have had 4 subsequent cancellations due to all this fog:ugh:

Just a quick question:I completed 6 take-offs and landings (t&gX5+1 full stop) as Pu/t,do these still count towards the 90 day rule for daytime passenger carrying as I was the 'sole manipulater of the controls'

Can't wait to do the solo stuff and the xcountry nav,will this fog never
bu:mad::mad:er off?

MM

[julian_storey]

Almost certainly - but your best bet is to ask your instructor :8

[S-Works]

Yes it will.

[IRRenewal]

From Schedule 8 of the ANO:

PPL Privileges:

He shall not -

fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane
carrying passengers unless within the
preceding 90 days he has made three
take-offs and three landings as the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of
the same type or class and if such a flight is to
be carried out at night and his licence does not
include an instrument rating (aeroplane) at
least one of those take offs and landings shall
have been at night.

[S-Works]

The sole manipulator of the controls is a misnomer and the ANO quote from IRRenewal is utterly irrelevant.

The reference supplied and what you are confusing is self revalidation.

Training with an Instructor automatically overrides that requirement.

So as I said the training with the Instructor as PUT as per your original question is sufficient to keep you current.

[Whopity]

As you don't yet have the qualification you don't have any currency to carry passengers at night. Once you gain the qualification, then to fly a passenger at night you will need to have completed 3 take offs and landings in the past 90 days of which one was at night. It matters not whether they were flown dual solo or as part of the course.

[DFC]

The answer is yes provided that you completed 3 take-off's and 3 landings as sole manipulator of the controls i.e. the instructor did not intervene or demonstrate anything during those circuits.

IRRenewal's reference is corect and the sole manipulator reference is correct.

BOSE and Whopity, I think you should re-read the question;

do these still count towards the 90 day rule for daytime passenger carrying as I was the 'sole manipulater of the controls'

My emphasis.

I would be interested in how Bose describes the sole manipulator requirement as "a misnomer " and how they can say that "Training with an Instructor automatically overrides that requirement"

As far as I am aware, one can complete several hours training with an instructor but if one has not completed the required take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls then one is not permitted to rely on the training or the take-offs and landings completed by or assisted by the instructor to carry passengers under the 90 day requirement.

Regards,

DFC

[llanfairpg]

But you do have to have been the sole manipulator of the controls.



Training with an Instructor automatically overrides that requirement.How?

The training flight may(in some case) have been a demo circuit therefore the requirement IRR mentions would not be fullfilled.

Pu/t and sole manipulator are not always the same

[S-Works]

A pilot who is out of 90 day currency can either carry out the revalidation by experience which is the 3 take off/landings as sole manipulator or they may seek instruction and such a flight will also count.

No Instructor is going to fly a single 'demo' circuit and let that count for revalidation and why would they, I know I don't? The pilot has sought training and why would a qualified pilot need an Instructor to manipulate the controls for them?

I describe the reference as a misnomer in that it is a revalidation by experience not a revalidation by a PU/T flight.

[IRRenewal]

The sole manipulator of the controls is a misnomer and the ANO quote from IRRenewal is utterly irrelevant.

The mind boggles. I quote the relevant bit of legislation, straight from the horse's mouth, and get told that the ANO is irrelevant.

[S-Works]

irrelevant in the context that you were quoting it.

Flying as PUT negates the need for revalidation by experience.

[DFC]

Bose,

The only requirement and the only method by which the pilot can carry passengers is through having completed 3 take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the last 90 days.

This can be;

1. completed while current in the normal course of flights

2. completed solo

3. completed with another crew member acting as Pilot in command.

If in the case of 3 the other pilot is an instructor then the flight can be dual and the time logged as dual.

Do it how you please but the only thing that gets you current is the required take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls.

IRRenewal, your quote of the ANO was both correct and relevant.

Regards,

DFC

[S-Works]

DFC, please provide evidence of this.

It is not my understanding and not that of the CAA.

[robin]

Option 3 is a no-no in single crew aircraft, such as PA28 or C172. If you fly with another pilot they must either be an instructor for the purpose, or they will book the flight as P1 and you record nothing.

[IRRenewal]

irrelevant in the context that you were quoting it.

Flying as PUT negates the need for revalidation by experience.

Flying as PUT IS revalidation by experience. It doesn't negate the requirements, it fulfills the requirements.

[S-Works]

Jesus you arguing semantics now. You are agreeing with exactly what I said but still trying to twist to suit your ends.

The section you quoted from the ANO refers to a pilot revalidating by experience. If they choose to undergo training with an Instructor they are no longer revalidating by experience they are revalidating through Instruction.

Write to the CAA and ask them to clarify.

[DFC]

Robin,

You can not log time as Pilot in command because that would make the other person a passenger and you can't do that because you don't have the required take-off and landings.

You can't log the time as dual unless the other pilot (pilot in command) is an instructor.

You can log the flight departure, and arrival times and in the appropriate column record the number of take-off and landings you completed as sole manipulator of the controls.

----------

Bose,

Try JAR-FCL or LASORS.

The requirement for carrying passengers is that the pilot in command must have completed 3 take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the last 90 days.

Sole manipulator of the controls means just that nothing more and nothing less.

There is noting about dual, in command, or solo. That is because the capacity of the pilot makes no difference it is the performance of the take-off and landings as "sole manipulator of the controls" that counts.

That is why you now need to log the number of take-off and landings you complete on each flight so that you can easily check that you have enough.

If you want to pay an instructor to sit beside you while you do the required take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls then good. But the fact that there is an instructor along makes absolutely no difference in how the requirement is met.

Regards,

DFC

[llanfairpg]

Write to the CAA and ask them to clarify.You should Bose



No Instructor is going to fly a single 'demo' circuit and let that count for revalidation and why would they, I know I don't? The pilot has sought training and why would a qualified pilot need an Instructor to manipulate the controls for them? It couldnt count because the student did not manipulate the controls. A qualified pilot for a variety of reasons may not allow the other pilot to manipulate the controls for landing. I know of one instructor who would not allow students to handle the Apache back into Elstree at night for instance

[S-Works]

What a complete and utter tangent.

I did write to the CAA on that and a number of other questions and it seems they do not have a problem with my interpretation.

It's amazing how they are prepared to give guidance as the experts rather than pontificating on how they think it should be.

[DFC]

No Instructor is going to fly a single 'demo' circuit and let that count for revalidation and why would they, I know I don't? The pilot has sought training and why would a qualified pilot need an Instructor to manipulate the controls for them?

Bose,

Who said anything about revalidation?

We are talking about meeting the JAR-FCL requirements for carrying passengers.

When you gain soem experience as an instructor you will find that there are plenty of times when "a qualified pilot need an Instructor to manipulate the controls for them".

For example, many pilots forget to select carb heat before reducing power. Do you reach down and select it? If not then I bet you tell them to select it.

Of course, the way things work out often the pilot may only need to complete 1 take-off and landing on order to have the required 3 in the past 90 days.

Regards,

DFC

[S-Works]

I give up, this is just getting ludicrous.

And we wonder why GA is in decline?
:ugh:

[DFC]

Bose-X,

The CAA has not backed up the view you expressed here and to say that is mischevious.

The CAA should not be used to back your argument unless you can provide a named contact and the words they used. To untruthfully use the CAA to strengthen your argument could lead those less knowledgable to believe something that is untrue or worse, do things they should not do.

Regards,

DFC

[PompeyPaul]

Bose-X wrote:Jesus you arguing semantics now.Wasn't it his birthday the other day ?

DFC Wrote:The CAA has not backed up the view you expressed here and to say that is mischevious.If it aint taking money of people, it doesn't seem to be something the CAA would back

[S-Works]

The CAA answered my question on this matter quite some time ago along with a number of other questions. There view is that training with an Instructor over rides the requirements for self certification. The requirements to carry passengers are self certification i.e they do not require an Instructors sign off. If you have not met the requirements you can either seek training with an Instructor to regain the currency or you can go off and fly the three circuits on your own.

Seems simple enough to me, so I fail to understand why this is being turned into a willy waving contest by you DFC.

It also answered my questions on where an IMCR could be taught from. Care to take a stab at answering that one as well?

[dublinpilot]

Bose,

Is it your position that training with an instructor overrides the need for 3 circuits, so....the training could potentially consist of only two circuits and some general handling?

Or is it your position that one circuit of training with an instructor counts as being the equivalent of one circuit as sole manipulator of the controls, even thought the pilot was not the sole manipulator of the controls? ie. they would need to do at least three circuits with the instructor?

dp

[S-Works]

I would consider a pilot out of currency enough to require training with an Instructor is not going to do a single circuit are they? If they were current enough to complete in a single circuit then they would just go off and self certify?

[dublinpilot]

What if they are only 1 circuit short of meeting the 90 days rule?

I'm simply trying to clarify what you're saying the law is, rather than asking what's practical.

You're posts so far could be read either way.

dp

[mad_jock]

To be fair to bose-x its not the first time I have heard this theory that a session with an instructor covers the pilot for pax carrying whatever you have done.

First heard from one of the northern scary examiners and then from other such god like beings down south.

It is a wee bit in the blacker part of grey.

Your between the devil (Some high up CAA examinors) and the deep blue sea (the ANO).

Personally if I was up with a student outside 90 days they were always going to do a pfl to t&G from the overhead followed by Flapless t&g to fanstop, and then what ever they liked landing.

So it would never be an issue to be honest.

[S-Works]

Same here MJ. I guess you and I are looking on the practicality of it rather than trying to score points.

[mad_jock]

And to answer the orginal question yes your circuits at night will count towards your 3 in 90 days. :-)

Have fun.