Landing an airliner; one hand or both on the yoke/control column?

[Mungo Man]

I'm starting to get the hang of landing the aircraft I now fly but a recent comment by someone has thrown a spanner in the works.

Until now I have been putting my left hand on the control column after reaching idle thrust but just before touching down. I do find the ailerons quite heavy on the aircraft and thus far achieve much more controlled landings two handed than my attempts maintaining left hand on the thrust levers.

Of course, we don't have reverse thrust to use but will I find the transition to another type with reverse thrust difficult because I am used to landing two handed? I never used to land light aircraft with two hands.

Watching the skippers I fly with most seem to do as I do - maybe I copied them when I was new on type - but just because they do it doesn't necessarily mean its right.

Maybe I just need to work out more!

[Daysleeper]

Until now I have been putting my left hand on the control column after reaching idle thrust

The other problem you have is what about the late go-around?

When I moved from left to right on going from turboprop command to jet FO I found I struggled for a while to be smooth with flying approaches with my right hand, when it got a bit complicated in the sim I'd revert to a bit of left hand to help out....it sorted itself out after a few weeks when the motor skills caught up with the new way round...then when I went from right back to left there was a bit of the same thing... I was much smoother with the "normal" hand... again it sorted itself out.

[Mungo Man]

The other problem you have is what about the late go-around?


Yeah I've thought about that bit too, but a go-around from 5 or 10 ft while not unheard of, it is pretty damm rare. Besides, with full FADEC it wouldn't take long to slam the thrust levers forward in an instant.

[con-pilot]

One hand. Keep the other on the throttles.

[West Coast]

FADEC may save you from burning up the engines, but its no replacement for being ready for a go around no matter the altitude. Hand on levers, other on the controls.

Engine failures are pretty damn rare as well. Should we not practice V1 cuts then?

[Milt]

Controlling the Landing

TPs and designers of your aircraft type will have done their best to make your controls a close compromise with the 'standard man' specifications.

It is expected that you will be the focal point for the input of all commands necessary for precise control under ALL circumstances during critical phases of manual command. YOU need to develop a comfortable and instinctive feel for the total behaviour of your aircraft within its manoeuverability and performance limits. Flight control and thrust are your essentials to deliver the desired result. Keep each actively in your grasp to enhance total feel and only relax on your link to thrust if you are content with a constant continuing power setting.

Excessive aileron control forces at low speed are unfortunate. If you find your one arm strength inadequate sometimes then you will be forced to briefly forego your link with thrust but be prepared to reestablish that link immediately if it becomes likely that you may need some. Experience will be the only way for you to learn where to instinctively place the emphasis

[SinBin]

It depends on the airliner you may fly one day, on an Airbus, there is only a small sidestick, our SOPs stipulate that one hand must be on the thrust levers and the other on the sidestick when the radio altimeter is alive. Not sure about Boeings.

[Mungo Man]

Engine failures are pretty damn rare as well. Should we not practice V1 cuts then?

I never said anything about practicing go-arounds from deep in the flare.

I'm inclined to think that two hands are the only way on this aircraft type. Obviously this is not an issue with Airbus, but my aircraft type has an inverted 'W' yoke and at moderate aileron deflection an upwards movement of the forearm is required for further deflection which I find difficult. Whenever I have watched Captains land in strong gusty winds they land with both hands.

[Lemper]

From piper cub to space shuttle via Fighter jets, Airbus's, Boeings and Aythingtocomes, it is one hand on the stick/yoke and the other on the throttle/thrust lever, this from start of taxi until chocks on.

[TG Helmsman]

Wrong. One hand on the tiller for taxi out and at end of landing. I would imagine that the space shuttle has one hand on the ground steering system for landing rollout. I guess that both hands are used to hang on to something for the takeoff though.

[kwachon]

Got to agree with one hand on yolk and one hand on Power levers, always was this way and always will be. With my company the call at 65 knots is "Your Yolk" to the copilot, then left hand goes to the steering tiller.

[Propellerhead]

Those who fly monitored approaches have the NHP deploying reverse so we HAVE to remove our hand from the thrust levers once idle thrust is selected so the NHP can get their hand on them to select reverse.

[Mungo Man]

Can't see the point of hand on throttle/thrust lever in the space shuttle for landing - its a glider isn't it - and once your going you can't turn off the solid rocket boosters anyway!:}

Also, no point having hand on yoke while taxiiing as the gust lock is always engaged.

[Piltdown Man]

Someone, somewhere has to have their hands on the power levers when you land. It is traditional to land with idle power and unless a hand is on the lever holding them against the stop, how do you know that you have idle power? Question: Do you have arm rests on your seats? Because if you do and they are not correctly adjusted they may make your life more difficult than it needs to be.

PM

[lowbypass]

It gets somehow exciting when you look at someone flare and touchdown with 'both' hands, the hand which has power levers most of the time wants to have both the yoke and the power levers which makes the whole procedure look tedious, look to be on edge and somewhat with slightly raised adrenalin levels.
I vote for one hand on power levers and the other hand on control yoke.

[Doodlebug]

Hello Mungo Man

What did they teach you in the sim? Bear in mind that if ever things do go pear-shaped one of the first things to be scrutinized will be whether the crew was getting up to some creative SOP's.

Anybody been taught anything other than one mitt on the volume-control? Be interesting to hear. (not talking about monitored approaches)

Regards,

Bug

[con-pilot]

Also, no point having hand on yoke while taxiiing as the gust lock is always engaged.

Whoa there, do you mean to to tell me that you taxi the aircraft with the gust lock engaged? That is so wrong in so many ways I really don't know where to start. Who the hell taught you to do that?

[FLCH]

Con,
Maybe it's part of the EMB-145 (if thats what it is) checklist/SOP , we used to do it on the DHC-7 too.

[con-pilot]

Okay, I may stand corrected, however, many aircraft I have flown you could not taxi with the gust locks engaged. On the all of the hydraulic power control aircraft I have flown there was no gust lock. (I know, old fart alert :p) With conventional landing geared (tail draggers) aircraft you had to be able to use the controls on the ground while taxing in strong winds, even in the DC-3.
Hum, come to think about, especially in the DC-3. :p

[TheOddOne]

Can't see the point of hand on throttle/thrust lever in the space shuttle for landing - its a glider isn't it

Mungo Man,

It most certainly is and in common with most gliders it has a control equivalent to a throttle and operated in the same sense - the AIR BRAKE. In the case of the Shuttle it's a split rudder, rather than spoilers on the wing. One hand on the stick, other on the airbrake.

Suggest you go and get a trial lesson in a K21 or similar, you'll get the idea in seconds.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[Khaosai]

Hi,

on the aircraft i have flown its always worked with one hand on the thrust levers/throttle, and the other on the control column.

Found the post above about the 65kt call interesting, where one hand goes to the steering tiller.

Rgds.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You don't know what heavy aileron is unless you fly the PBY...and the sucker requires almost a complete turn from wings level to full aileron deflection.

And I always fly with one paw on the control wheel and the other paw on the throttle levers.

There has been the rare instance when I had to use two paws on the control wheel in an ungodly wicked gusty X/wind but only for a few seconds and then my other paw goes back on the throttles.

[coonass one]

I think it all comes down to the question of when are you committed to landing. In my case, I am committed at around 10-30 feet. That's not to say my hand leaves the thrust levers ever, just that if I need both hands on the yoke, it only happens after I am committed, then after touchdown, back to the TR's. Just my style, or opinion.:)

[frontlefthamster]

Stay in control of the aircraft; prioritise where your hands are to achieve this. :)

Some aircraft, such as the Fokker 100 and some citations, have lovely light ailerons and elevator and landing with one hand (or finger and thumb) is no problem. Others, such as the Boeing 73,5,67s, and - bizzarrely - the GIV etc, have ailerons which border on being simply too heavy, and using both hands is worthwhile in some circumstances. :cool:

The time taken to transfer the right hand to the thrust levers, and then move them is insignificant once the spool up from approach idle is taken into account. :)

[Capt Fathom]

but my aircraft type has an inverted 'W' yoke and at moderate aileron deflection an upwards movement of the forearm is required for further deflection which I find difficult.

Indeed! I found the BN-2 very heavy in the ailerons, requiring quite a deal of brute force! :E

[Up and Away Again]

I suggest that if the aircraft is heavy then you need to workout down the gym, always be ready for the unexpected therefore one hand on the throttle. Also if you have to move your hand at a late stage you could end up operating the wrong lever, not much fun.

Ths can happen as once I had someone operate the mixture instead of the throttle, it sounds like an engine failure initially!

[Pilot Pete]

others, such as the Boeing 73,5,67s, ............ have ailerons which border on being simply too heavy, and using both hands is worthwhile in some circumstances. Are you serious? I've flown all those types listed and none of them display the characteristic you mention. I've never experienced what you allude to and indeed have NEVER seen any training department insist on anything other than one hand on the control column and one on the thrust levers in the Boeing types you list. With two hands on the column you are not in full control of the aircraft.

PP

[Mungo Man]

Up and Away Again said ...you could end up operating the wrong lever...once I had someone operate the mixture instead of the throttle...

Not much chance of getting the wrong lever since there are only 2 thrust levers and no other engine controls at all on the centre console.

Anyway, I've been landing 'conventionally' recently and don't have a problem with it now. Must be all those sprouts I had at Christmas.

[llanfairpg]

Thats why the bulit the Airbus to make 'two handers' and nervous captains redundant

[frontlefthamster]

Pete, yes, I'm serious - and I did say 'border on'... Have you flown any of the types which I mention for their laudable light and smooth ailerons? In a few thousand hours on 737s (various), I would say that I probably use both hands for the final bit of the flare on one in a hundred landings, on account of strong and gusty crosswinds... :\

[5150]

Airliners are built to be flown with one hand on the control column and one hand on the thrust levers - if you need both hands in the flare then you need to get down the gym!!

[whitus1]

I think, although some people say setting the throttle to idle then placing two hands on the yoke is acceptable, i would dissaggree, i say this because I believe one hand should always be placed on the throttle quadrent in case the aircraft has to perform a quick go around :ok:

[Pilot Pete]

frontlefthamster you askedHave you flown any of the types which I mention, which you will see if you re-read my reply to your original post, which I will highlight again here I've flown all those types listed and none of them display the characteristic you mention So yes, I have flown ALL of them, have you flown them all? Never, ever have I had to use two hands on the column on ANY OF THEM, and I'm no Mr Universe. I think you need to accept that your technique is not required, not trained and leaves only one common denominator, and that is that you need to get a little stronger.

All the best.

PP

[kwachon]

Always one hand unless there are strong gusty winds and then only if needed.

[Propellerhead]

I repeat my previous post!! :

Those who fly monitored approaches have the NHP deploying reverse so we HAVE to remove our hand from the thrust levers once idle thrust is selected so the NHP can get their hand on them to select reverse.

Monitored approaches are used by one of the biggest Airlines in the world and every non-Airbus Pilot in that airline lands 2 handed!!

[frontlefthamster]

Pete, I did ask about the 'light aileron' types... Your previous reply was selective, but I guess that you have flown the F100, GIV, GV, and various Citations too, but didn't find their ailerons light. :eek:

I emphasise that this is a seldom-needed technique, but one which works well for me, and does not contradict any required procedure. :p

'Not trained'? Oops, well it is trained by me and the training department I'm involved with... And Big Airways have no problem with it at all, as well as reaping certain benefits from having two people actively involved in stopping the aeroplane, instead of having a pilot and a spectator for every landing. :8

Stronger, eh? See you at the Dog and Hammer tomorrow lunchtime for an arm wrestle. Bring your second! :E

[Bealzebub]

Those who fly monitored approaches have the NHP deploying reverse so we HAVE to remove our hand from the thrust levers once idle thrust is selected so the NHP can get their hand on them to select reverse.

That may well be the case in your company, but it is not the case in most. All the monitored approaches I fly require that the handling pilot handles and the non handling pilot monitors and calls any deficiencies. The handling pilot will land the aircraft and activate the thrust reversers.

[frontlefthamster]

propellerhead could have been clearer: :}


That may well be the case in your company


Yes, it is. :cool:

[Pilot Pete]

'Not trained'? Oops, well it is trained by me and the training department I'm involved with Well your training department to it differently to most then. And I don't see the FCTM mentioning it anywhere for Boeing types, so it is not a technique the manufacturer teaches.

reaping certain benefits from having two people actively involved in stopping the aeroplane Well that is a matter of opinion too. I personally go with the philosophy that one pilot should be actively in control and the other should be monitoring.:E

PP

[powerstall]

One hand on the power levers, the other on the yoke. You gotta love the trim! specially on single-engine approaches then a go-around....

best full body work-out yet! :ugh:

[Bert Stiles]

Having said all that - there is/was still the SH5. Neither P1 nor P2 would have their hands on the power levers (take-off or landing). "Flight Idle, Inboards Ground, Inboards Reverse, Outboards Ground, Outboards Reverse, Ground Idle" - of course someone will tell us we were doing it wrong for - what - about 80,000 hours? Just a guess. Nobody thought of going to the gym -doh!

Bert.

[dream747]

Slightly off topic but just wondering how does the stick force compare with the cessna on the B747 or B767 for example? Are there cases where people don't have the physical strength to positively control a large jet (besides the sidestick) ?

[Bullethead]

Are there cases where people don't have the physical strength to positively control a large jet (besides the sidestick) ?

I've flown with many lady B767 pilots, both Captains and First Officers, some quite petite, and I've never seen any control problems either during normal ops or during engine out work in the simulator.

Regards,
BH.

[Lasiorhinus]

Have a complete hydraulic failure in all three systems, and you might have a different story...

But, that's why there's backup systems!

[Bullethead]

Have a complete hydraulic failure in all three systems, and you might have a different story

If this happens you may as well grow your own wings and flap a hard as you can because that's pretty much all you'll have going for you.

Regards,
BH.

[AerocatS2A]

Whoa there, do you mean to to tell me that you taxi the aircraft with the gust lock engaged? That is so wrong in so many ways I really don't know where to start. Who the hell taught you to do that?
The Dash 8 is another that is taxied with the controls locked. The lock is disengaged just prior to take-off and is incorporated in to the take-off config warning. If you want to taxi it with the locks off, good luck hanging on to the controls in a strong tail wind!