BREAKING! - 744 S/Os Shafted.... [Archive]

bunkmaker

23rd Dec 2007, 04:44

Also from our COS:

"Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for approximately eighteen (18) months."

In the past this time has been extended due to 911, SARS, etc... But those times are behind us now, and with new A/C arriving every month and a huge order book, there is no reason that it should take 3 years for promotion to JFO!

With all the SO's suitable for upgrade at the moment, it's downright demoralizing to see all these DEFO's hired ahead of us. Not to mention in direct contradiction to our COS.

I guess the AOA is out of office for the holidays... I'm sure they'll sort this out for us in the new year...:oh:

Ex Douglas Driver

23rd Dec 2007, 05:46

I'm no lawyer, but I'll attempt to string together a few of CX's COS paragraphs, hopefully to highlight how SOs are ALL being shafted, not just those on the 744.

6.2. Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.
This is clearly not the case, so 6.3 is being used
6.3. In the event that recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry occurs, other than in accordance with 6.2, Second Officers suitable for promotion will not normally have their promotion to Junior First Officer delayed by more than twelve (12) months whilst such First Officer recruitment by Direct Entry is taking place.
7. PROMOTION
7.1. Selection
a. Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with
seniority on the Officers’ relevant seniority list and is subject to a Selection
Panel recommendation.
Pretty clear that promotion is to be in seniority order.
7.2. Second Officer to Junior First Officer
b. Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for
approximately eighteen (18) months.
c. Promotion to Junior First Officer will occur when the Second Officer is
allocated a conversion course, the effective date of promotion being the course start date. The number and timing of Junior First Officer upgrade courses is dependent upon Company requirements.
The magical company requirements... The company requires FOs (and SOs)
10. BYPASS PAY
10.5. In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary on a one for one basis commencing three (3) months after the date of joining of the First Officer recruited by Direct Entry. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the Second Officer receiving bypass pay commences Junior First Officer training.
Note that for the payment of bypass pay, the COS says SUITABLE, not selected as in COS para 7.1 above. So how does one become "suitable"?
From Vol 7, you need:
Requirements for Upgrade to JFO
a. SOs are required to achieve Grade A and be able to maintain a Grade A standard, A minimum of three training modules at Grade A, spread evenly over a period of at least 3 months is required to meet this requirement.
This is where the 18 months as an SO comes from; 12 months to complete modules 1 through 6 and achieve Grade A, plus 3 more modules at Grade A level. The individual is now SUITABLE for upgrade to JFO, hence bypass pay is required to be paid when DEFOs are recruited.
Note that the tech assessment is NOT a requirement of being a SUITABLE SO. The tech assessment is a function of being SELECTED and allocated an anticipated course date.
Tech Assessment: In the case of pilots approaching JFO Upgrade in seniority order this will be scheduled approximately 6 months before an anticipated upgrade.

superfrozo

23rd Dec 2007, 09:03

O.K. - before I join the angry mob that seems to be picking up burning torches and pitchforks whilst on the way to the AOA headquarters/CX third floor I have a few questions for those in the know. I would like to try & independently verify the pretty damning suggestions being made here:

1. How do I see who is on JFO course in Crew Direct? (I admit I'm a computer quamby & can see no such info in the many links provided on the Trg page.)
2. How did you guys deduce that -400 SOs are being delayed in comparison to Airbus SOs when the Seniority list is quite clearly a seldom updated and poorly administered database? (granted, that may be part of the CX "obscure & conquer" gameplan)
3. These claims should be easily verified by the SO joiners who were of "mixed course" about 2 years ago: ie there is often an even mix of 'bus & -400 SOs who all joined on the same day and within a few seniority numbers of each other: so are there any 'bus SO joiners who can confirm being recently favoured for JFO upgrades by 2-3 months over their -400 joiner comrades??

Before anyone asks, no I don't belong to management!!! I just like to get the facts before I follow the lemmings over the cliff...:uhoh:

bunkmaker

23rd Dec 2007, 09:10

well put Ex Douglas Driver!!

The Management

23rd Dec 2007, 10:30

Well Well Well.

Just to let you young chaps in on a little secret. We realize some of you are rather new in the company and may not have noticed.

So here it is in the simplest way I can put it: “We do what we want, when we want and there is nothing You, the AOA or a Lawyer can do about it”. Quite simple really, your COS is just a piece of paper.

You will get nothing until you are Cat A’d. We will not Cat A any S/O until a course is selected so no bypass pay until that happens. This may be 3 months before your course starts.

Enjoy the view from the back seat. With DEFO’s and age 65, you will be there longer; you may as well start enjoying it.

To my Bonus and a very nice one indeed.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every pilot for helping US maximize our bonuses. We realize some of you are away many nights but I am home every night and keep regular sleeping hours, so thank you for reducing physiological rest. We realize it is legal and no one uses fatigue as an excuse and get the job done. From the bottom of my bonus, I thank you.

Merry Christmas and enjoy this festive season.

The Management

betaboy

23rd Dec 2007, 11:05

Hmmmm...

The Management is starting to blow his (or her) cover! He's got the SO upgrade process backwards. The actual process is:

- Cat A is granted after 1 year of mods, and more specifically, after the first Mod 6, assuming that the mods went reasonably well. (Cat A doesn't mean that you are going to be upgraded, just that you are elligible to be assessed - just another one of those silly CX hoops).
- Assessment is typically being done one or two months before the upgrade course date is granted.

Both of these facts can be confirmed by perusing Vol 7 or a call to real management.

Thus, The Management obviously isn't a manager, nor is he an SO... So, that leaves us with a disgruntled FO or Capt...

And all of you folks out there who thought he was a real manager... ha! (Still, too bad his sarcasm so often rings true...)

The Management

23rd Dec 2007, 11:19

With S/O upgrades being out to 4 year’s(longer with DEFO's and RA 65) have you known any S/O receiving bypass pay for a year or more?

Enjoy the view.

To my bonus!

The Management

betaboy

23rd Dec 2007, 11:28

That's my point. Being Cat A'd (or more correctly, Grade A'd) doesn't mean you receive bypass pay as an SO. Semantics, I know, but any manager would know that (especially as most of our managers seem particularly good at semantics!).

Cover blown!

The Management Quote:
You will get nothing until you are Cat A’d. We will not Cat A any S/O until a course is selected so no bypass pay until that happens. This may be 3 months before your course starts.

Near Miss

23rd Dec 2007, 12:31

This is not a joke people. Airbus Second Officers ARE being given JFO courses before more senior Second Officers that are on the Jumbo. Why because the Jumbo guys have to do a full type course, whereas the Airbus guys are already CCQ on the A330, meaning a very abbreviated course. What is next? Commands only being given to First Officers already endorsed on type? :mad:
And they are NOT getting bypass pay because they are not being assessed. Despite the fact they are Grade A. Despite the fact they have done their Upgrade Interview. Even if they were getting the money, it is capped at First Year JFO. So a colleague that joined after them, but by luck went onto the A340, will be making a lot more when they are QL after six months or so. :{
Why is all this happening? Is it because the company doesn’t have sufficient capability to conduct training. Or is it just trying to save money? Why train a SO when you can just recruit a new FO and train them. It means you don’t have to then train someone else to replace the SO. Are they now having trouble finding people that are willing to join as a Second Officer? :hmm:
And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

BusyB

23rd Dec 2007, 13:33

Near Miss,

And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”.

Interesting, just went through the incoming mail for the last month. Only 2 from SO's neither giving us any information about any breaches of COS. Both replied to with requested information.

The GC can't do anything if they aren't told and then they have to fit it in between flights and home life. The sooner you pass on info the sooner it will get looked at, or perhaps you're not a member.:confused:

EXEZY

23rd Dec 2007, 13:37

Well surely the AOA should be proactive in spotting and taking action against alleged breaches of COS and not soley relying on letters from S/O's etc. After all this is why people pay there subs is it not?

Near Miss

23rd Dec 2007, 14:24

BusyB, there are more ways than just letters for SO's to contact the AOA. I have been told that when they have phoned, they got the "We have sent a letter to the company on your behalf". Maybe I should tell them to write it as well.
Oh and my membership is not the issue here. It is the way the company is treating it’s Second Officers.

ChairmanBoysClub

23rd Dec 2007, 14:41

Yeah blame it the NON-members - are they not entitled to having their CoS followed or what?? And if the AoA has already had two emails from "members" is that not enough - do you need 10 or a 100 letters or what??

I know for a fact that the AoA has been contacted in the past with regards to keeping a finger on the pulse w. regards to the S/O upgrade and transparency! Now lets get the AoA to try and work FOR the members and non-members for that sake - instead of just sending letters!! A lot of us are starting to get fed up with "letters here and letters there". It seems to me that all the AoA is doing is just that. A lot of talk and NO action. Now get onto it! :ok:

Drunknsailor

23rd Dec 2007, 14:52

I hate to add facts to an angry thread but here goes. Disclaimer: it is midnight and I spent about 30 seconds looking at crewdirect

The junior 777 FO on the seniority list is 1607, the junior Airbus Fo is 1660.

There are currently 11 -400 SO's with seniority numbers lower than 1660. If you look at the master roster you will find at least 5 of those 11 rostered for a 777 or a 330 yup a 330 course in January.

Sorry for the logic, flame away:ok:

BusyB

23rd Dec 2007, 16:04

Exezy,

How can you be proactive against alleged breaches. Think about it! Your subs pay for the office, Ifalpa membership and Insurances. In fact if an SO we are probably subsidising you. No GC member gets a cent of your subs its all done in our own time.

Near Miss,

Emails are best then the entire GC has the opportunity to read them. Phone calls will get an off the cuff reply from anyone in the office but not everyone who may have knowledge in that area necessarily hears about it.

The issue here was your whinging about the AOA.

CBC

The 2 emails weren't about this subject. If you want to help let us know. As for helping non-members, they already benefit from any improvements we secure. If they want individual attention I suggest they join.
Yes, SO upgrades and bypass pay are regularly monitored and any irregularities questioned but this thread appears to feature a new problem so give the facts in an email to the AOA and we'll look into it.

bobrun

24th Dec 2007, 01:08

Interesting what Ex Douglas Driver brings up...being SUITABLE (and getting bypass pay more importantly) happens by holding CAT A for 3 modules over 3 months...nothing to do with the "board assessment".
Quote:
Note that for the payment of bypass pay, the COS says SUITABLE, not selected as in COS para 7.1 above. So how does one become "suitable"?
From Vol 7, you need:
Quote:
Requirements for Upgrade to JFO
a. SOs are required to achieve Grade A and be able to maintain a Grade A standard, A minimum of three training modules at Grade A, spread evenly over a period of at least 3 months is required to meet this requirement.
This needs further investigation...

The Management

24th Dec 2007, 02:34

Semantics I know, but we decide who is suitable and when. This directly affects your bypass pay. Easy really, saves us great amounts by not paying bypass pay and this is reflected in my bonus.

You don’t need to read the contract or our Volumes, we do what we want. “Suitable” is a very ambiguous word.

Enjoy being in the back seat for longer.

To my bonus

The Management

bunkmaker

24th Dec 2007, 02:48

BusyB,
Fair enough, instead of whining on pprune, affected SO's should write an email to the AOA.
In the meantime, if you are on the GC, can you chat with the other members and point them towards this thread?

The Management, your posts about your bonus are getting really old and boring. Piss off.

To all others, Happy Holidays! And don't forget to thank your SO for making your bed.

Liam Gallagher

24th Dec 2007, 09:52

Throw me a bone here...

Where in the COS does it say SO's get by-pass for extendees???

superfrozo

24th Dec 2007, 22:57

...The same place where it says SOs on the 744 are to make the bunks!!!:}

WaldoPepper

25th Dec 2007, 04:46

I can confirm that guys who started 2 weeks ahead of me in Adelaide are upgrading 2 months behind me. The only reason being that they are on the 744 and me on the bus.

777300ER

25th Dec 2007, 07:15

I can confirm that guys who started 2 weeks ahead of me in Adelaide are upgrading 2 months behind me.

It's about to become a lot more than 2 months I think.

The Wraith

26th Dec 2007, 05:58

A friend on the Airbus who joined several months behind me has been given an JFO course early Mar. I have yet to hear about a 777 course for myself...the rumour is end of April or beyond.
So, there definitely is a problem with 744 SOs being delayed for upgrade.
I too am wondering why I am a member of the AOA and seriously beginning to wonder why I am in this airline.
However, Merry Christmas to everyone anyway...:sad:

DDDOF

26th Dec 2007, 10:39

The 2 bus guys directly behind me have JFO courses in Jan and I was told to expect mid April for 777. Wasn't given the Bus option(not that I wanted it). Also when DH was showing me what I concluded was the 777 training plan for 08 and the number of 777JFO courses over the first half of the year, I questioned him on the first column which read 777 Induction(NAM) and after asking what that was he sheepishly said DEFO 777 for North America, a quick glance showed several every month for as far as I could see down the page, at leat 10-12 for the first half of the year. I am on bypass pay and will be on it for almost 7 months by the time I get a course, which also will be almost a year after my upgrade interview. So delayed course will mean delayed Ql and delayed FO1 pay, and there is no bypass for that!!

4-Daned

26th Dec 2007, 15:04

I was told all year that assessment for me was in December, course on the 777 in February or March.

So far I have not received an email or letter regarding assessment, but an Airbus S/O who joined the same week has me has.

Most recently I was told course in June or July.

Sand Man

26th Dec 2007, 22:21

Are the 777 SO's in the same boat as the 400 SO's or Airbus SO's? First 777 SO's should be getting close to hearing something.

bunkmaker

27th Dec 2007, 05:12

So delayed course will mean delayed Ql and delayed FO1 pay, and there is no bypass for that!!

Amen brutha!:D

If the company is so short on training resources - give the jumbo SO's a short course to upgrade on the jumbo!!

ACMS

27th Dec 2007, 06:09

I have put "The Management" on my ignore list.

Ahhhh life is much better now I can't see his BS

DexyDogg

27th Dec 2007, 09:08

Same team, same dream, right?

Yes, it looks as though those few are being delayed as well. I think my mate said April/May, then recently, when he inquired, was told late 3rd Quarter 2008. So far, at least 5 months delay.

Now you're really flying. :ok:

pacific blues

28th Dec 2007, 01:52

DrunknSailor

You must have been looking at the HK based list. The most junior FO on the Airbus is most likely the most junior pilot in the company.

bunkmaker

28th Dec 2007, 03:52

I vote that all 400 SO's should go on strike - by not making the bunks - until this issue is resolved. That'll show em'!

MAX

28th Dec 2007, 06:34

I must have missed the bunk making ground school. Surprising considering all the other sh!t Cx makes you do as an S/O.

Just do a sloppy job of it, untucked corners and no chocolate on the pillow.

:E

MAX:cool:

Fenwicksgirl

28th Dec 2007, 08:09

Well this is just another "biting off the nose to spite the face" idea of CX management. Short term ideas men who pat themselves on the back everytime they think they have shafted the pilot body and saved a few cents.
So, if i were a S.O, pissed off at the delay in my up-grade, pissed off at a 3% pay rise and most definitely pissed off at an extended time as an F.O due to R.A 65, well i would get my F.O endorsement and start looking elsewhere. With your time as an S.O and your new shiny endorsement there would be plenty of airlines willing to hire you. As an Australian, well we know whats happening down there, nice to have a 777 endorsement now. (covers 787 too luckily).
So what i am saying to you all is that, this is CX, this is their M.O, it aint going to change, so, unless you just love living in Hong Kong, LEAVE!!!!!
One of my buckets is nearly full, am preparing myself mentally and educationally for a future outside of this profession. (Just in case)
Things to look out for in the future, 3 man long haul to Europe and 20 hour duties. R.A 65 wont be a problem, it will be guys keeling over at 60!!!!!!

Sand Man

29th Dec 2007, 07:15

It will be interesting to see if CX use the dreaded QL check as a way to realign the seniority list for the 400 SO's. This way the company wins twice, 400 SO's longer as SO's and Airbus JFO's longer as JFO's and there will be no leg to stand on by the AoA with regard to the bypass pay issue.:=
Does this stuff happen for command? I would like to bet that CX have done their sums and have worked out that the saving in the SO to JFO training is greater than the cost of bypass pay and that this is reversed when it comes to command bypass pay and command training. NC do you have any figures on this?

Numero Crunchero

29th Dec 2007, 12:32

Using old CX training figures(from 1999) a typical course is around half a million. Bypass pay is around $60K pa per SO.

CX are training course limited, not cash limited. With only 2 full time 777 sim instructors and 7 out of 20 744 sim instructors, courses are the constraint.

So it saves them money and courses to bypass.

BusyB

29th Dec 2007, 13:09

NC,

As I understand it establishment 19 744 sim instructors. 10 employed, 1 long term sick.

It must be the wonderful COS. :}

Near Miss

1st Jan 2008, 14:16

I go home on leave (full fare mind you :{), and in the meantime, this thread seems to have gone all quiet. So before I head back to work, what is happening?
Are 744 SO’s being held back while junior Airbus guys get JFO courses? Are 744 SO’s being offered A330 spots while the B777 training department is busy with DEFO’s? Are “assessments” being delayed until just before course dates? Are they getting Bypass Pay? Are they still making the bunks? :}
BTW BusyB, not that it matters here, but I am a member. My “whinging” with the AoA is due to the response that SO’s (follow colleagues and members) were given when contacting them, admittedly via the phone.
I do not believe the softly, softly approach is working. :ugh:
PS Liam Gallagher, have a look at CoS (99) Bypass Pay 10.2.

Liam Gallagher

1st Jan 2008, 22:16

Sorry me old... 10.2.. Excess flying pay is detailed in Schedule 5 of the COS...

am I miss something???

I just looked in Section 9... Titled By-Pass pay...... no mention of SO's...

Near Miss

2nd Jan 2008, 06:16

Hi Liam, we must be looking at different things. From the paper copy that I have (which is obviously old) this what I was referring to. I will download the one from IntraCX later. :)

10 BYPASS PAY
10.2 In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary, allowances and benefits on a one for one basis commencing upon the date that the retained Captain reaches the Retirement Age. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the retained Captain retires.

Loopdeloop

2nd Jan 2008, 15:27

I have a downloaded copy of Veta CoS 99 which mentions only F/O bypass pay, nothing on S/O's. Has it been removed? Conspiracy theory anybody?

Millstream

2nd Jan 2008, 19:45

Check out the 10.5 CX CoS......(In theory, no VETA SOs).

Also included 6.2 which is the bit the Company are riding rough shod over. Given that everyone is carefully recruited with Command potential (never mind FO potential), their interpretation of "suitability" is a complete urine extraction exercise.

To Management's Bonus!

Milly

6.2
Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.

10.5
In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay....

bunkmaker

3rd Jan 2008, 07:27

Near Miss,

Yes it's true that Airbus guys are getting courses now while the 400 S/O's are being told a vague date sometime later in 2008. Assessments are still happening in order of seniority, although this is now happening 6 MONTHS AFTER passing the upgrade interview. And yes, 400 SO's still have to make the bunks..

still haven't heard boo from the AOA... the holidays are over chaps - lets see some action!

Humber10

3rd Jan 2008, 07:43

Are these guys getting bypass?

Liam Gallagher

4th Jan 2008, 04:40

Your COS, sometimes *laughingly* referred to as your Employment Contract, is being silently amended as the company sees fit. The COS on Crew Direct, which is the one the company will refer to, does not mention SO's under the provisions of by-pass for extendees.
Regrettably, we have allowed the company to do this for a number of years, through laziness or for our own expendiency. Kinda like the young debutante enjoying the blowing the ear, nervous about the hand on the thigh and niave to were it's all leading to..... someone getting proper :mad:ed!
Modern Industrial relations eh Steve?? :rolleyes:

HEALY

4th Jan 2008, 05:34

As a SO on the B744 can you request a FO slot on the A330 or do you have to wait for B777 slots and stay boeing?

Drunknsailor

4th Jan 2008, 09:25

First off, section 10.2 on Crew Direct says that SO's get bypass pay for extendees. Just checked, sorry to replace ranting with facts:ok:

in response to the previous question:
Previously, a lot of folks were given a choice on upgrading fleets. As I have heard it, this is what is currently happening:

Airbus so's get a 330 short course and are off and running (the junior ones are getting courses at less than 3 years from DOJ)

744 so's getting 777 at a later date; was told by a friend that consideration would be given on a "case by case" basis if you really wanted the 330. Some -400 so's do get the 330 as there is one on course this month.

777 so's haven't gotten to the top of the pile yet so I dunno

Liam Gallagher

4th Jan 2008, 10:39

Not ranting... just confused as your facts are clearly different to mine....
... on my computer..... Crew Direct<Veta COS< Section 9 Bypass< Section 10 Excess Flying Pay(EFP)
No mention of SO's getting bypass in either section and would copy it if I knew how:ouch:
Also found down the back of the sofa a hard copy of Veta COS 99 issued in late 99; section 9 Bypass Pay, section 10 EFP... again no mention of SO's...

It would seem there is a difference between the Veta COS and the CX COS and Crew Direct takes you automatically to the applicable COS for the individual concerned? Whilst I can look at USAB and AOBL COSs; I can't view a CX COS.

Am I correct in assuming SOs are employed by CX and not Veta? if so at what stage do you transfer over to Veta?

bunkmaker

4th Jan 2008, 11:21

yes, all SO's are on the CX CoS, not VETA. I believe you only go on VETA if you take a base? so don't know what your point was supposed to be Liam, but SO's are entitled to bypass pay for the extendees. you must work on the 3rd floor?

Drunknsailor

4th Jan 2008, 13:58

The COS's are written differently. Section 10 is bypass pay in the CX COS

I believe VETA covers Europe basing areas and OZ?. USAB covers North America.

Apple Tree Yard

4th Jan 2008, 15:33

hahaha....! This sort of debate clearly demonstrates just how f**ked up our COS have become. Can anyone here claim they definitevely 'know' what rules apply to them? ......thought not . What a pathetic mess our so called 'career' airline has become.

Liam Gallagher

4th Jan 2008, 21:40

Take a deep breath and be careful who you flame.... my point is that I go to my copy of the COS, both hard copy and electronic, and it doesn't allow for SO's getting by-pass. No agenda, just dealing with what is written.

Equally, my COS doesn't even mention DE FO's.... what effect do they and extendees have on a Freighter FO on the Veta COS... "career" wise... quite a bit... compensation.... nil....

It would seem that SO's are on a different "contract". I am HK based and on a Veta contract. Big deal you may say: I think Apple Tree Yard has it spot on; the whole contract has become so complicated and in such disrepair that the company are doing what they want on any given day. There is no fairness or consistency; your expectations are different than mine and I can't even look and learn about what your expectations are.

Career Airline???

Numero Crunchero

4th Jan 2008, 23:07

You are both right. CoS are tailored to your position in the company. There are no SOs in VETA as you cannot get an SO basing! So you need to log on and read CX B scale CoS to find out about SO bypass pay. And often the sections don't line up - section 9 in one might be section 10 in the other one.

Liam Gallagher

5th Jan 2008, 01:21

Bit of thread creep... but... How do I get Crew Direct to show me "CX B scale COS"?

When I log on it defaults to Veta COS and then I can ask for USAB, AOBL, NZBL and 3 Veta Bases, Canada, UK and Europe. Curiously, without going thru each one line by line, it seems the body of the COS is always the Veta COS; but with different pay scales annexed to it. I notice that some of the bases have pay scales for SO's, even though there are no based SO's. Presumably, if you were based you would not get by-pass at all because the main body of your COS is the Veta COS....... what a sack of cack...........

ACMS

5th Jan 2008, 02:03

Once again they set it up nicely to suit their own agenda.

They don't want us to know what the "other guy" is on.

bunkmaker

5th Jan 2008, 02:24

Agreed the numberous different CoS around depending on when & where you joined the company is a big issue - in fact one deserving it's own thread.

Back to the 400 SO's getting shafted... the 400 SO's are no longer being offered courses on the 330 (unless you ask for it), and are being delayed because of the backlog in training on the 777 fleet. Meanwhile Airbus SO's are uprading on the 330 without delays, and Airbus FO's are being dragged across to the 400 fleet to fill FO vacancies there. How about offering 400 SO's an upgrade onto the 400?!? It would be a short course, saving the company money, and then they wouldn't have to drag Airbus FO's, kicking and screaming, who would require a full course.

Maybe that would be too logical...

goingdown

5th Jan 2008, 02:55

Bunkmaker,

several reasons for not upgrading SO's on the 400.First of all not enough training sectors(min 40 sectors for JFO upgrade) and it also means that the company has to choose between previous jet experienced SO and the ones who had only flown bug smashers previously(basically out of seniority).
Then for Airbus FO's, you have ZFT and also minimum sectors of 8 for line training.

Happy New Year and Safe Flying

Ex Douglas Driver

10th Jan 2008, 11:50

If I can bring this back to the top and urge all S/Os to write to the AOA expressing your thoughts and solutions to this. Now is the time we need OUR union working for US.....

Fly safe

Ex DD

Ex Douglas Driver

18th Jan 2008, 05:32

Today's update from the GMA admits the issue of delayed upgrades for 744 S/Os .

The GMA says: "However, it is not possible to train everyone in precise seniority order".

does not tie with:

COS99 7.1 "Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with seniority.... and is subject to a selection panel recommendation".

If an Airbus S/O is upgraded 3 months prior to a Boeing S/O of equal seniority, and they then both subsequently upgrade to captain on the same date in the future, the Airbus officer will be $83910 better off.
(The assumptions: 3 months longer at SO3 for the 744 S/O, but 3 months less as an FO4. Both do 9 months on JFO 1 pay but I'm pretty sure the Airbus guy will do their QL first as they will do their line check relatively earlier, meaning less time as a JFO).

So in my opinion, if the company admits they cannot follow the Conditions of Service, then there is a very strong case for financial compensation for those affected.

slapfaan

19th Jan 2008, 01:54

So in my opinion, if the company admits they cannot follow the Conditions of Service, then there is a very strong case for financial compensation for those affected.

....and industrial action

....and a VERY interesting court case

:ok:

Ex Douglas Driver

16th Mar 2008, 11:53

I did a bit of trawling and have come up with the following to show the disparity in upgrade times for SOs, depending on fleet. This information is based on actual seniority and roster data. The numbers show the relative positions on the seniority list.

01 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 19 Dec 07
02 / 744 SO - 777 JFO / 21 Mar 08
03 - 06 / 744 SOs awaiting upgrade
07 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 30 Jan 08
08 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 30 Jan 08
09 - 17 / 744 SO awaiting upgrade
18 / 744 SO - 330 JFO / 01 Mar 08
19 - 20 / 744 SOs awaiting upgrade
21 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 20 Feb 08

The bold lines shows the 2 conversion options for 744 SOs. The 744 SO going to the 777 is delayed by approx 2 - 3 months compared to his Airbus peers. The 744 SO going to the 330 is upgrading 20 days before his more senior 777 counterpart, but this is still 2 weeks after an Airbus SO who is 3 positions behind.

How much of this is down to personal preference?

Drunknsailor

16th Mar 2008, 13:28

First off, we need to accept the fact that there are a330 short courses and a330 long courses. 744 SO's CAN NOT take a short course so there will ALWAYS be some discontinuity in the upgrades as you go down the seniority list as the 330 short courses must be filled by airbus SO's. I will admit that it has gotten a bit excessive lately. I do however, think the trend is reversing.

I searched through the April rosters to see who was getting courses. The 744 SO's who were awarded the 777 were significantly senior than the ones who went to the Airbus. There were at least 2 if not 3 744 SO's starting a 330 course in April. They were a couple of months junior to the ones going to the 777. I hate to say this but it is not Cx's fault if 10 or so 744 SO's did not want the 330 and they had to go down the list to fill the courses they had available.

When you compare the junior 744 SO getting an a330 course and the junior airbus SO getting an upgrade course, the difference in DOJ is a matter of about two weeks. That is good news because it looks like the company is creating 330 long courses for the 744 guys that want them. As far as the difference in dates of the courses for the 744 guys and the 330 guys, it comes down to when they could fit in the short course vs. the long course.

On another note, I noticed that a lot of people doing a jfo airbus course are having 330 SO trips put on their roster between the end of their sim's and their base training/LFUS, could there be a crew shortage perhaps???

Oh, silly me, "there is no such thing as a crew shortage!"