FI "you don't fly the plane"

[VNA Lotus]

hello everybody,

I talked to a friend, because at the moment I hesitate to do the FI course, I have finished my CPL/IR.
And said me "the problem as an FI you don't fly the plane, you're just in the right sit... it is not like towing gliders, photos, etc so it is not very interesting for companies"
So I don't ask you if it's true or not, because obviously you don't fly the plane, when I was doing my CPL course, my FI just told me "watch your cap , your altitude, what do you see there, and there ?" and I noticed he tells you what you know but what you don't see, it is like a safety pilot in fact...

I mean when you are in the right it is easy to see the errors of the pilot...

But maybe some of you are FI and work in a company.

Can you tell me what others abilities you can get ?

thank you very much for your help.

[Kanu]

You WILL become a better pilot IMO, I did.

[VNA Lotus]

thanks Kanu! what does it mean "IMO" ? (english's my second language)

[Malcolm G O Payne]

As a retired FI with quite a few hours behind me, I assure you that you will have difficulty find a flying job that gives you greater job satisfaction. You WILL fly the aircraft, perhaps to a degree of accuracy that you did not expect, and you will have the pleasure of showing your student how to achieve the same standards. It may take a time, but when a retired airline training captain searches you out as the person who sent them on their first solo you will realise it was worth all the effort.

[Kanu]

(in my opinion)

bit drunk so excuse the spelling and grammar.

If you've just finished at one of EU's sausage factories (CPL schools), you will learn a lot about general handling on your FIC course as I did and a few of my friends (we now know what the footrests are for!).

On the other hand, I've been getting frustrated recently with my lack of handling the aircraft. My own fault for teaching my studes so well in the early stages:8:p

[llanfairpg]

Its more important to learn how to handle the student rather than the aircraft, many are born to fly, few are born to instruct.

[Contacttower]

many are born to fly, few are born to instruct.

What is it that they say...'good pilots made not born'...I'm sure the same applies for instructors...

[BlueRobin]

Malcolm is right.

I'm doing a FI course at a well-known FTO based at his local airfield. It teaches you to fly again and your flying standard is expected to be to exam standard all the time.

If I have one concern it's that I'm afraid the job will draw me in and I'll find it mentally hard apply for the airlines.

[18greens]

A CPL FI may get less hands on than a PPL FI.

The average FI flies a lot of trial lessons in which you are flying a fair bit and even with students you demonstrate actions for them to practise. Even if you're not hands on you are in command and you do pick up a lot from others mistakes. It will make you understand a lot about how aeroplanes fly.


How much hands on does the average airline pilot get?

[huckleberry58]

Unless you are independently wealthy then you will need to do the FI course to get your hours up. As for handling, that's no big issue, you will get enough.

[Whirlybird]

It's true that when you're teaching students who've done most of the course you don't get to fly much. But there are enough trial lessons and demonstrations of particular manoeuvres to make up for that....so you'll get to fly. Also, as people have said, you'll get to fly WELL, and also to do exciting manoeuvres that you don't get in many other flying jobs, many of which involve flying from A to B.

On the other hand, instructing is at least as much about PEOPLE as it is about flying. You are not teaching flying, you are teaching people to fly. There's a big difference. Unless you actually enjoy working with people, and gain satisfaction from your students' progress, instructing life will be pretty grim for you and you won't be much use as an instructor. llanfairpg put it perfectly - "Its more important to learn how to handle the student rather than the aircraft, many are born to fly, few are born to instruct".

[5150]

How much hands on does the average airline pilot get?

As much or as little as they want. . . !

[llanfairpg]

How much hands on does the average airline pilot get?

Modern airline flying is about monitoring automated systyms, the Biggles era has gone.

[llanfairpg]

What is it that they say...'good pilots made not born'...I'm sure the same applies for instructors...

If you had of employed and taught as many instructors as I have you may not be so sure about that.

[P.Pilcher]

What excellent advice has been posted above. My only addition to it would be that the only instructors who could possibly justify moaning that they don't get enough handling themselves are the good ones. In my experience "pole grabbing" is never the best way to instruct!
I never found that by refraining from "pole grabbing" my own handling skills were impaired.

P.P.

[llanfairpg]

I never found that by refraining from "pole grabbing" my own handling skills were impaired.

You can certainly learn a lot by watching--I regularly watch my wife drive!

[rotorfossil]

It's my experience as an instructor and examiner for a long time, that you become much better at detecting how and when things are happening and when they are about to go pear shaped. You also pick up little tips from the people you fly with that you perhaps hadn't thought of yourself. If you are not careful however, this can lead to a gentle upward drift in what you require as normal standards from your students.
However, although your own awareness standards do improve, unless you are able to mix instructing with other work which involves handling, your own handling skills can degrade, and this particularly applies to examiners sadly.

[BEagle]

EASA's FCL001 is putting the final touches to the Implementing Rules NPA which will allow PPL/FIs to instruct at substantially less cost to themselves than hitherto. Because, to be permitted to receive remuneration for flight instruction, they will require a PPL and a FI Rating. Which will mean:

NO requirment for 'CPL level knowledge'
NO requirement to hold a CPLThis will mean that many PPL holders (currently under JAR-FCL they need 200 hrs TT, of which 150 must be PIC), with no interest in becoming airline pilots, will be able to instruct at PPL level. And be paid for it.

Which may well mean that the opportunities for airline wannabees to instruct at PPL level may well reduce......

Maybe airlines will have to re-introduce their own selection and training schemes again?

[Kanu]

may also mean that career instructors lose out

[VNA Lotus]

Hello Guys,

Well, fisrt, I want to thank you for your replies.

I made up my mind, so I guess I will do the FIC the next year.
These my reasons :

- I don't know how to keep current, so the FIC seems to be the best solution to fly without paying. After my CPL/IR course I don't have any more money for flying.
- I hope with money earned as a FI, I will be able to pay a MCC.
- I hope to share my passion of flying with students. Ok, sometimes it will be hard because everybody is different, but it will be a challenge for me.
- I talked to a friend who was FI and now he's flying for a regional company, he told me it is a great experience, because you will know your limits, and meet a lot of people.

However today my worries are :

do you think it is credible to be FI with only a CPL/IR with 200 total time, and I have never towed gliders, I don't have any others experiences...

Well maybe one day a curious student will ask me "what are your experiences young man ?"
"errr...cpl/IR, not airline, not gliders, just from school..." :bored:

Did you have problems like that ? (I'm 22 years old only.)

Thanks.

[VFE]

The majority of students have never asked me how long I have instructed or what my background is. Only ever had one ask how many hours I have and that came after 1.5 years instructing. Confidence is something which you will quickly learn how to exude as an instructor but learn the difference between confidence and arrogance.

Be approachable, have a sense of humour, praise your students, show willingness to help, put their learning before any desire to fly the aeroplane yourself and you will not need to worry about whether they respect you - they just will! When your student is in the room your attention should be directed 100% on them, obviously that's not always practical but if you think that way you'll be onto a winner. Although you may feel that 200 hours, CPL/IR is nothing to shout about, the majority of your students will see this as above and beyond what is required to teach them how to fly.

Only by coming here and reading all the dross about "hours builders abusing the system" and "airline wannabes" will they ever view your role as instructor with a jaundiced eye. The pleasurable reality of everyday club flying and instructing is not reflected too well on these pages because posters like to use their anonimity to air grievances they would normally ignore.

Good luck and you will soon find instructing to be rewarding and great fun!

VFE.

[VNA Lotus]

Thanks VFE!

[GHNRY]

I'd like to add my support for VFE's reply. Although my experience as an FI, examiner and CFI is 35 years old, I believe most of it to be still valid.

In those far off days, we earned our living on a PPL - just imagine that! There was always the argument about PPLs just instructing for the hours to get a CPL. Provided that there is an avuncular CFI holding a good overview, these 'self improvers' were good. Why? Because they lived and breathed flying and this was communicated to the students.

I always insisted that we were a flying club - not a flying school. There was a high level of social activity as well as the training and the 'flying for fun'.

My own instructing career lasted for five years before I gave in and got a CPL - because I enjoyed it so much. In that time a number of my ab initio students obtained their PPLs, carried on to build hours and take an instructor's course, then flew with our club as AFIs/FIs until going on to CPL/ATPL status - now, they are commanding 777s and the like.

Spending a year or two as an FI is good fun, good for your own flying skills and very satisfying. Don't be a 'pole-grabber'. Learn to control the aeroplane through your voice and the student's hands - it will do wonders for your own powers of anticipation.

One more thing - you will never, ever forget your first 'first solo'. You will be even more excited that your student.

[llanfairpg]

I hope to share my passion of flying with students. Ok, sometimes it will be hard because everybody is different, but it will be a challenge for me.That is a great admirable reason to want to be a flying instructor and I hope that will still be valid after a year or two in the profession. Quite a few start out with similar sentiments but sadly after the repetition and sometimes long days get disheartened after a time. Flying instruction is hard work when it is done properly, I always wondered why school teachers had long holidays till I started instruction (at around your age).I once heard a Monarch captain describe instructing as the labouring of flying (I prefer to call it hard work when you put everything into it.).

Part of the problem can be the school you work at. Four one hour flying details per day with briefings etc is enough for any instructor in my opinion but many will want you to fly more and when you get back from one flight your no sooner in the door and they expect you to be back out in the aircraft, generally that sort of school can be challenging for both instructors and students so pick your school/club carefully is my advice.

Also part of the problem also lies in the title of your post--about flying the aircraft. Being a flying instructor is not just about flying, it is about being able to brief and lecture, being able to prepare students for exams, being able to sell PPL courses, being able to supervise other pilots, some who will have more experience than yourself. You need to be able to pass on a lot more than enthusiasm. One poster said you remember your first first solo, sadly I do not but what i do remember is that no student of mine has never been involved in any sort of incident ever and I find that much more rewarding.

Good luck

[HerrFlick]

Lots of good advice given I think to the original post.
One thing that does concern me is the new EASA PPL/AFI, as I didnt realise it would mean that renumeration is possible.
Whilst there are lots of PPLs out there more than able to give instruction from a platform of good flying ability, I fear there may be many more who will be instructing from a background where confidence will outweigh ability and standards could possibly be compromised.
I found that the CPL course was far more relevant to Flying Instructing than to Commercial flying, and was of great benefit to me as I embarked on the route of being an AFI.
Flying is not just about controlling the aircraft, but it is also about making sensible decisions based on sound judgement and an attitude of "confident humility" if that makes sense.
It will also sound the death penalty to Professional Instructors and I fear we will lose out on all that experience and high standard.
But I guess these days we are all ruled from Brussels or the like.
Shame.

[homeguard]

Whatever comes to the fore with EASA we don't know, the info so far is only fueled by rumour.
Don't be so pessimistic it might not happen as rumoured. It probably won't but we'll almost certainly have an unfathomable mess out of which every one will flourish.
Nothing much will really change however, ingenuity will be the key!

[VNA Lotus]

Many Thanks guys for your replies... you are very helpful.
And...Merry Christmas everybody! :)

[llanfairpg]

I found that the CPL course was far more relevant to Flying Instructing than to Commercial flying, and was of great benefit to me as I embarked on the route of being an AFI.

With respect sounds like you may have had a poor FI course

[VH-MLE]

My 2 cents worth.

Many instructors feel guilty about flying the aircraft when their students are paying for the lesson, however, in my opinion, this is flawed thinking. A good instructor will regularly demonstrate the correct way to perform manoeuvres (hopefully), even after the student has received training in the specific manoeuvre itself. Remember, a students primary role model during his training is his instructor and by the instructor regularly demonstrating specific flight manoeuvres, it gives the student a greater understanding of what the instructor is trying to teach. On that basis alone, an instructor should be able to maintain a high level of flying skill purely in his demonstrations.

Another important benefit of the student watching the instructor fly is the chance for the student to develop high levels of flight discipline by seeing the instructor exercise same. Having said that a slack instructor will almost always produce a slack student so please for your students sake try and be as disciplined as you can. If a student sees you fly through cloud then he will think this is acceptable and probably develop the same attitude to this (monkey see - monkey do etc).

A last comment that's maybe not relevant to this thread but I'll say it anyway is that I see many instructors tell their students what to do in their flying lessons but not many teach their students - there is a huge difference between telling and teaching and that largely comes from experience, teaching ability and attitude.

Regards.

VH-MLE

[HerrFlick]

Quote:
I found that the CPL course was far more relevant to Flying Instructing than to Commercial flying, and was of great benefit to me as I embarked on the route of being an AFI.



Llanfairpg

You miss the point.
My FI course was fine. What I was saying is that the CPL flying course is far more geared to General Aviation and as such Flying Instructing than to Commercial Airline Flying.
The first taste most people get of procedural instrument flying is the Instrument Rating.
Lets hope the status quo remains.

[llanfairpg]

My FI course was fine. What I was saying is that the CPL flying course is far more geared to General Aviation and as such Flying Instructing than to Commercial Airline Flying.
The first taste most people get of procedural instrument flying is the Instrument Rating.

Not sure I would agree with that perhaps you could explain

[VNA Lotus]

yes I agree... when I did my CPL, (after my IR) I was bored... it is like a PPL really. Same procedures, same check list, same VFR rules so you are very limited by the weather and plus you use a single engine (joke) however you can do the whole course on PA34 if you want...(expensive!)

IR course : a lot more interesting, you fly like an airline, you use same procedures and fly a complex twin engine.

The first thing I wondered when I started the CPL, was " why did they call it "commercial pilot licence" ?"
You feel more professional under IFR rules :}

[llanfairpg]

and fly a complex twin engine.

Didnt know they were using the Airbus these days!

[VNA Lotus]

:} sorry, maybe it's my english...well I meant on IFR course, an aircraft more complex than a PA28 used on CPL...

[OneIn60rule]

You still learn from it eventhough you barely touch the controls.
You get it logged as bloody Pilot in COMMAND time so what is your worry?????

You've flown since PPL, CPL. If you did the FI course you would realize how easy it is to keep your skills in check.

[llanfairpg]

I have looked at your posts on an interview basis so with respect my worry for you is that I cannot see any mention in your posts of 'a want to help others', only hours and flying experience.

Having 200 hours more than another instructor dosnt make you 200 hours better in the same way as having glider towing experience dosnt make you a better flying instructor.

One of the worst instructors I ever worked with used to ferry Mosquitoes from Canada to England during the war, he flew Dragon Rapides from Blackpool to the Isle of Man and was CFI of many UK schools. His experiences kept us in the bar till late on club night but as an instructor he was dangerous and incompetent, in fact the school lost the CAA approval because of him.

You dont need loads of experience as a pilot to be a good instructor but you do need loads of patience, discipline and determination to give the student your best. That is why I alway say anyone can be be a pilot but not everyone can be an instructor.

[S-Works]

may also mean that career instructors lose out

I don't think so. I don't think that PPL's Instructing will devalue anything and a career instructor is a career instructor. What it will do is bring experienced PPL's with something to offer into clubs and schools, will reduce the hours builders with little to offer and possibly help to rejuvenate GA training.

I would foresee the career instructors carrying on just as they did before supplemented by part time enthusiastic and experienced PPL Instructors.

It's only the hours builders who are going to scream a lot over this as all those lovely 'free' (very subjective consdiering the cost of the rating) hours vanish.

Or the other way round is it is perfect for the hours builders as they could effectively be on the old self improver route where they do the FI course, work several hundred hours as an FI and they go off and do the CPL/ATPL.

Although I am not sure how that would effect the egos who like to tell everyone they are a commercial pilot or have the magic frozen ATPL....... Apparently that makes you a 'better' pilot......