PPL training

[Philpaz]

Just a quick question,

In PPL training, once you start going solo do you stay solo or does the instructor continue with you, possibly in stages?
I'm only asking as i am trying to compare some prices for training in and around the Leeds area and want to know if you would revert from dual training costs to single after solo.
I could be way off the mark and probably am.

Any help gratefully received.

Phil

[EvilKitty]

Funny... I thought exactly the same thing when I started training aswell.

What you will (probably) find is that even though you are "solo" you are not alone in the airplane. Your instructor is right there with you - you may not be able to see her (although there is a reasonable chance you will hear her even though nobody else can), the aircraft will perform as if it only has one person in it and you can put your chart/kneeboard etc., on the seat next to you..

BUT...

she is still there (quantum entanglement or somesuch)

So unfortunately you'll have to pay dual until such time as you pass and get the little bit of paper from the CAA.

Oh, and once you go solo there is a mix of solo and dual instruction.

[Philpaz]

I thought that might be the case, no cost cutting in this game it seams.

Thanks for your rapid response, appreciated.

Phil

[TheOddOne]

What you will (probably) find is that even though you are "solo" you are not alone in the airplane. Your instructor is right there with you - you may not be able to see her (although there is a reasonable chance you will hear her even though nobody else can), the aircraft will perform as if it only has one person in it and you can put your chart/kneeboard etc., on the seat next to you..


Yes, I found the same, even after I got my PPL, in fact the cockpit was quite crowded sometimes!

Now I'M the one in the right seat, there are still times when I hear those voices from the past and very useful they are, too.

Now, back to practicalities.

It's as well to enquire at the school exactly what they charge for. Some schools still charge to dual rate for solo flight until you become a PPL hirer, because they're still paying the instructor, even though they're on the ground. The reason is that the instructor has to supervise you and send you off/wait for your return. Other schools do an 'all-in' package for the course lasting 'x' number of hours.

It's worthwhile getting written quotes from a number of schools based upon 45 hours so that you can compare total costs. Remember, as in life generally, the lowest cost doesn't necessarily work out as the best value for money in the long run.

Be VERY wary of paying all the money 'up-front' unless you're confident about the long-term viability of the business you've given the money to; it maight take you over a year to finish the course. I've only ever paid up-front for a flying course and then only because it was only going to take 6 weeks and fiancially it was very beneficial to do so.

Cheers,

TheOddOne

[Anodyne]

Phil with regard to your question about flying with an instructor after going solo the following notes may be usefull:
The Private Pilots Licence course naturally divides into two sections.
The first of these involves the "general handling", and further subdivides into "upper airwork" and "circuits". The "upper airwork" includes straight and level, climbing and descending, turning, slow flight and stalling, "circuit" work is primarily about learning to take-off and land, and this part of the course culminates with your first solo and subsequent solo circuit consolidation.
This is followed by the second part of the course; the procedural and navigation training (also some instrument flying) . This involves being able to take an aeroplane, and get safely from A to B, dealing with any problems thrown at you on the way. Initially this will be done with an instructor again, before doing some navigation flights solo.
Finally, following some revision - again with an instructor, you take the Licence Skill Test, which if successful, allows you to apply for your Private Pilots Licence.
The above description is inevitably something of a generalisation and not exact. There are some discrepancies; (eg exercise 15, Advanced Turning, is a general handling exercise, but comes after first solo), and while in an ideal world you would complete the course in the order given, the British weather usually means that some flexibility is required.
Best of luck!

[Whopity]

What you will (probably) find is that even though you are "solo" you are not alone in the airplane.
Definition of SOLO - you are the sole occupant of the aeroplane! If you aren't SOLO its DUAL!

[llanfairpg]

Mind you if you sneaked your Granny on board as a student would it be still be solo?

Anodyne--an excellent short description of the course, do you write your schools brochures?

I belive there are a few schools/clubs who only charge solo rates for student solo but most charge dual rate as it it is still an instructional flight

[TheOddOne]

Definition of SOLO - you are the sole occupant of the aeroplane! If you aren't SOLO its DUAL!

Aw, come on Whopity, it's Christmas, allow us a little surrealism!

Remeber that film 'Always' with Richard Dreyfuss about the fire bomber? If you haven't seen it - do!

TheOddOne

[llanfairpg]

Definition of SOLO - you are the sole occupant of the aeroplane! If you aren't SOLO its DUAL!

Heard of an intersting once when the instructor told the student to get the aircraft ready and started while he had a cup of coffee, must have been some confusion as the student went flying without the instructor--so dual authorised--solo completed!

[Whopity]

Its common in the US. Student and instructor leave A for B. Student then flies "solo" back to A. So what happens to the Instructor?

The purpose of solo is to give the student confidence; the opportunity is lost if you fudge it!

[BEagle]

Whopity - I thought that 'solo' meant that the student must be the sole occupant of the aeroplane for such flight time to be accpetable for licence issue?

Presumably a CAA inspector would put any such American school right on such an issue, should such practice occur on a JAR-FCL PPL course.....

[xrayalpha]

I agree with "surreal" solos, but if I recall correct there was also evidence in a court case about an autogyro instructor who sent students "solo" while he was still in the aircraft. Slightly more serious.

By the way, in many microlight schools - including mine - there is a cheaper rate for students going solo in their own aircraft.

Tends not to be much cheaper for dual in student's own aircraft since the instructor's aircraft still has to be paid for, and many of those expenses (rent, advertising, heating. lighting, capital costs, hangerage, insurance etc) are fixed.

But if a student is on a solo xc in their own aircraft, the instructor might be able to get some circuits in with another student (and the airfield gets some income from the student's hangerage), so why not share the benefit.

Realise it is often very different in GA since few students seem to buy a light aircraft.

[VFE]

As solo student you will be flying on your instructor's licence and he/she must authorise the flight and/or take any wrap you may encounter so it stands to reason they be remunerated for this leap of faith. ;)

Cheers,

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

Wrong--again!

[timzsta]

Exactly - it is when you send them solo you are really earning your money as the FI. That is when you have to make the biggest decisions.

[VFE]

Wrong--again!

Half a story--again! :rolleyes:

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

As solo student you will be flying on your instructor's licence and he/she must authorise the flight and/or take any wrap you may encounter so it stands to reason they be remunerated for this leap of faith.Half a story--again!The other half of the story is

There is no such thing as an instructors licence, it is a rating.

Students do not fly 'on' anyone’s licence, they only need an appropriate valid aviation medical. An instructor must supervise the flight, not authorise the flight. Authorisation and supervision are two completely different things. Authorisation may be required as part of the internal policy of a school, club or hiring company. Supervision is required by law for all solo student flying.

There is a big difference between authorisation and supervision. When our instructors supervise students they are present at the airfield (or available on the radio) for the complete duration of the students flight and we take steps to ensure the student has arrived safely at any land away airfield and receives an onward briefing. After authorising a flight, on the other hand, instructors have no further obligation.

Supervision means that all reasonable steps have being taken to ensure that the student has been properly prepared and briefed (In particular ANO Part 5 pre-flight action by commander of aircraft). Our instructors also monitor the students progress, within reason and where possible, throughout the flight(s)

An instructor does not necessarily ‘take the wrap’ (an unfortunate choice of words). If the student decides to flour bomb his neighbours house en-route or divert to Morocco, blame is hardly likely to be attached to the supervising instructor. Blame is however attributable when negligence can be proved, such as not understanding the legislation!!!!!

All the above is very elementary and covered on day one of our FI course

[DFC]

As solo student you will be flying on your instructor's licence

Tosh. They are flying on their own (licence in most states) (authorisation that comes with a medical in the UK case).

Provided that they are authorised by an instructor and the operation is supervised by an instructor, if they do something that they should not do it is their ass on the line and (where issued) their licence that can be revoked.

Not to be confused with instructors sending students solo without the student first having demonstrated the required competence.

-----------

To answer the initial question - check carefully with the individual schools what they charge for and what they do not charge for. You don't want to start with a school that is very cheap in terms of the 45 hours flight training onlt to find that they charge for the pre-flight and post flight briefing time not to mention charging above the going rate for the written exams etc etc.

If you do find that you may have picked the wrong one i.e. after you start you find a better one then you can simply change and have your training records forwarded to the new school.

Regards,

DFC

[VFE]

All the above is very elementary and covered on day one of our FI course
Sounds like a good course llanfairpg. Maybe when you and DFC (same person/same school??) are through with your point-scoring semantics you could one day post something here which wasn't designed just to show how much you know? That said, I do love it when the geeky dissection comes out to try and boost the ole ego. :}

So a student flies under an instructors supervision, not their licence per se - big deal. It's still the instructors own hard work and ability that got them into that position. So are you saying no remuneration should be paid to the instructor because it's a supervised flight? Who else could supervise it without possessing the instructor 'rating' then?

An instructor authorisation is not a legal requirement but a club one. Ok, I suppose that means responsibility is delegated and no remuneration should be paid to the instructor because it's not a legal requirement?

No, of course not, so what was your point again? Ah yes, back to the first paragraph we go...

VFE.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I think that Prince Charles had a dispensation to fly 'solo' but with an instructor on board, for obvious reasons.

[llanfairpg]

No, of course not, so what was your point again? Ah yes, back to the first paragraph we go...

English improving but still a way to go.

[BillieBob]

An instructor must supervise the flight, not authorise the flight.There's a little more to it than simply supervision. The ANO states that a person may "act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:.....he so acts in accordance with instructions given by a person holding a pilot’s licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, being a licence which includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor’s rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating entitling him to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown;" There would seem to be a fairly small distinction between 'authorisation' and 'instruction', certainly smaller than that between 'supervision' and 'instruction'.

It is interesting to note that this argument is likely to become entirely irrelevant as, according to the first draft of the EASA implementing rules, a student pilot may not fly solo unless authorised by a flight instructor and a student pilot must carry his logbook with him on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required instructor authorisations.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

a student pilot must carry his logbook with him on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required instructor authorisations
What a daft requirement. Like anyone is going to want to bother to piece together the relevant flakes from the ashes.

Much more useful, surely to goodness, is the instructor authorisation signature in the log book on the ground. Like what we do now.