One pilot union......a step closer

[excellr8]

From another forum

Today, in a unanimous decision, the Full Bench of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission awarded the Australian and International Pilots Association constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group. The Full Bench was constituted by SDP Acton, DP Ives and Commissioner Blair and consented to the alteration of the eligibility rules of AIPA by inserting the following new paragraph: “Without in any way limiting the generality of any other provision of this rule or being limited thereby, all persons who are normally employed as pilots on airline services within or extending beyond the Commonwealth of Australia operated in whole or part and under any name by any of:

(i) Qantas Airways Limited ABN 16 009 661 901;
(ii) Qantas Limited ABN 73 003 613 465;
(iii) Australian Airlines Limited ABN 85 099 625 304;
(iv) Jetstar Airways Pty Limited ABN 33 069 720 243;
(v) Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Limited ABN 77 001 599 024; or
(vi) Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Limited ABN 82 009 734 703

shall be eligible for membership in the Organisation (AIPA).”
Affirming an earlier decision of SDP Kaufman which had been appealed by Qantas and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, the Full Bench extended AIPA’s coverage to Jetstar and the Qantas Regional airlines. The alteration will come into effect on 2 January 2008.

Up until now AIPA’s coverage was predominantly Qantas long haul and short haul pilots and did not include Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.

AIPA Solicitor Tony Macken of A. J. Macken & Co., said the decision modernised the industrial coverage of Australian airline pilots - the legal position has now caught up with the industrial reality. AIPA is in a position to provide coverage and representation for all Qantas Group pilots. The Full Bench decision varied the decision of SDP Kaufman in minor respects but substantially reaffirmed its core findings.

[Tankengine]

PAF : Just what ARE you smoking!!???:eek:

[Jet_A_Knight]

You're not getting worried about when you de-mob are ya PAF???:ooh:

See how far you get when you deal with big companies as a 'solitary man'!

I suppose you will go for civil employment and shun all the benefits like a safe working environment, holidays, super, a reasonable wage that were all hard fought and won by unions and their members.

Have fun on 5cents and hour sweeping chimneys - or maybe you're just God's gift to the world's prospective employers???

[GetOffMyBack]

Great idea in principle...But really, how many Jet* pilots want to be represented by AIPA.

[Transition Layer]

P-A-F,

You really are out of touch...you have absolutely no idea what we are up against with QF Management. So sorry your little mate Johnny Howard has gone, the mourning period must almost be over though.

As a proud AIPA member I welcome any Qantas Group pilot with open arms. I can't see why anyone would bother with AFAP anymore - a pissweak organisation at best.

GetOffMyBack,
Any self respecting JQ pilot would surely want to earn the same coin as a QF pilot, flying the same metal (A330), on the same routes (i.e. Japan/Asia) for effectively the same company. One union representing everyone is a step closer to achieving this IMHO.

TL

[genex]

I'm not joining them....ever. They left the AFAP years back to look after themselves and haven't changed. They can't accept that the days of lazy big slothful legacy carriers are gone and to take JQ back into the QF bad old ways of T & C and huge training chains would kill both.

AIPA is useful as a retirement group to plan reunions for former QF 744 drivers. Not much else.

[wobblepump]

The recently negotiated shorthaul EBA is no shining example on why any Pilot would want to join AIPA.

[Tankengine]

Until you compare it to Jet* or VB's!:hmm:

[wobblepump]

Yes...very soon SH will be on the same rate as Jet* and VB

[Keg]

genex, the number of pilots were were part of the AFAP overseas branch who left to become AIPA would number under 200 of the 2500ish QF drivers. My read is that AIPA has moved on considerably from that time.

'Bad old ways of T & C'? You obviously don't believe in getting paid a decent amount! :ugh:

Not a high quality post to rate going through the hassle of a new profile! :rolleyes:

[genex]

Keg,

I know you mean well and you have your perspective but make absolutely no mistake, Virgin and Tiger will be the ONLY winners if QF T&C (including all the "Legacy" stuff that goes with them) get imposed on JQ. AIPA has no natural constituency, capability, committment or commonality of purpose with the LCC world where Jetstar takes the fight (on behalf of the Group) to other LCCs, international airlines, bus-lines and every other outtfit competing for pirce and value sensitive dicretionary spending. And nor should AIPA have a franchise in the LCC world...they support very well the current Qantas culture and business.....its just that that's not the way the rest of the world is going.

AIPA's best role model is that of caretaker at a museum...and they do it well. They can also organize reunions for retired 744 drivers. But that's all. Every pilots dream is that there be lots of jobs. And the big white Rat is not where thats at.

As for taking the time to create a new profile....well it was either that or start playing with razor blades as I contemplate the job losses ahead for Australia pilots if AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar.

[I'm Driving]

genex
You've never seen the QF shorthaul contract I take it.

[excellr8]

Genex

"As for taking the time to create a new profile....well it was either that or start playing with razor blades as I contemplate the job losses ahead for Australia pilots if AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar".

Why would AIPA want that, I am fairly junior and as a member of AIPA I would be horrified if AIPA's intention was to do so. Many a junior member would look at early upgrades in Jetstar if that was available as I would hope if Jetstar guys wanted a change to come across to Mainline. At the end of the day it's not too unrealistic to see the two much closer together. This is why having a win to legally represent the whole group is so critical. Everyone that says well they did this back then and that's why i wouldn't trust him or her is just living in the dark ages, sure history has a way of repeating itself but at present we all have a unique opportunity to make some real improvements due to the skills demand. Some vision and leadership is now critical to get the improvements that the whole group needs to restore confidence in the career's of all Qf group pilots and I would hope that the first step to getting those results comes from new members appreciating the need for a collective voice and AIPA having a flatter representitive structure to enable a better cross-section for policy making. It's gotta start somewhere otherwise it will be holding patterns till the fuel runs out.

[drshmoo]

Genex........................ Why do J* pilots deserve lower wages. The proven REAL (No help from established legacy carrier) LCC is southwest airlines. They have the best paid 737 drivers in the world. Why will AIPA create less employment opportunities? Sounds like Coalition scaremongering:ouch:. My mates at J* deserve better pay and conditions than what the JPC have given them so far.
As far as Easterns and Sunnys. Anyone currently there won't be affected (goo or bad) by the joining AIPA cause after Jan 2 they'll all be elsewhere. - last one out turn off the lights:}

[Dragun]

January 2nd Dr.Shmoo?

[VH-JJW]

I have no problem with anyone attempting to raise the bar as far as industry conditions go.

However, I hold a great deal of scepticism with regards to AIPA's attempts to gain control of the Jetstar membership.

Who are and always will be the majority of AIPA?

Who controls AIPA?

Prior to Jetstar, what interest did AIPA display in furthering the conditions of Qantas 'Group' pilots?

How were the Australian Airlines pilots treated by AIPA post the QF take-over of that airline?

What is AIPA's REAL motive?

I would put to the readers that AIPA is engaged in a thinly veiled attempt to remove Jetstar pilots from widebody cockpits and replace them with QF pilots. Jetstar International is the real pain in the -400 pilots side as it could eventually threaten even their T's and C's.

Contrary to Genex, I beleive AIPA understand's the need for domestic LCC's, they do not pose a threat to the final career destination of the majority of AIPA members, however, JQI is a major threat, particularly as the advent of the 787 presents AIPA with a diabolical challenge to secure seats and promotions.

In the TN takeover AIPA sought to marginalise the TN pilots onto the 737, to the point that when the AO A300's were retired they were replaced by B767's crewed by Q list pilots. At one stage this threatened redundancies from the A list. Many A list F/O's did over 10 years in the 737 before command whilst Q list crewed 767's took over more and more domestic flying, with many rapid promotions for Q listers (many are the current AIPA leadership). Eventually the A330's provided for some A list movement.

How did this come about? AIPA at its best, protecting its core membership. AIPA does this well, QF B744 and A330 pilots are some of the better paid by world standards, AUD$220k plus plus is good money for an F/O on a B744.

From a commercial perspective, even if AIPA gains a majority of Regional and Jetstar membership, it will take a considerable length of time to recoup the costs of winning this coverage case. Very altruistic, but again I see other motives.

Why am I sceptical you ask? Its not that Leopards may not WANT to change their spots - they simply cannot.

[Reeltime]

JJW, you make several references to Australian Airlines ( the original one) as AO. Anyone who has been around longer than 5mins knows the correct designation for that airline was TN.

AIPA was extremely generous with the TN pilots, agreeing to the Y list which gave them future opportunities that they would never have had, if Qantas hadn't bought the airline.

As for your assertion that AIPA's motive for coverage is to remove Jetstar pilots from wide body cockpits, well thats just laughable. Anyone who thinks that will happen is far removed from reality.:=

Are you suggesting the JPC have furthered the interests of JQI pilots, with that third rate agreement they're on?

[Going Boeing]

What is AIPA's REAL motive?

To reduce Dixon/Oldmeadow's ability to use divide and conquer tactics.

Industrially, each pilot group will negotiate for their terms and conditions but will have the full industrial experience of AIPA to assist them in their negotiations so you won'r get mainline interfering with J*,Eastern, Sunstate negotiations. They'll just have more support than they have had in the past.

In the AO takeover AIPA sought to marginalise the AO pilots onto the 737, to the point that when the AO A300's were retired they were replaced by B767's crewed by Q list pilots. At one stage this threatened redundancies from the A list. Many A list F/O's did over 10 years in the 737 before command whilst Q list crewed 767's took over more and more domestic flying, with many rapid promotions for Q listers (many are the current AIPA leadership). Eventually the A330's provided for some A list movement.

I don't know who the source for this crap was but it couldn't be further from the truth. AO was Australian Airlines based in Cairns which was formed many years after Qantas bought (at a hugely inflated price) the domestic Australian Airlines (TN). You were obviously talking about TN but your source was totally wrong. The integration agreement gave each group of pilots "grandfather rights" on each fleet in their original airline. Qantas invested huge amounts of money into the domestic airline as evidenced by turning the "igloo" into the current world standard Terminal 3 in Sydney as well as terminal improvements at other ports such as Melbourne. Some of this investment went into expansion of the B737 fleet. This expansion throughout the 1990's saw virtually all "A" list First Officers gain their command whilst "Q" list pilots with many more years service had to wait for their chance - the exact opposite of what you said. This situation is easy to confirm - both AIPA and QF have records confirming this process. Sure the A300s were sold in 1998 (would have been sold in 1993 except for the fact that the previous TN board had artificially inflated the value of every asset and a one-off correction would have caused problems in the privatisation of Qantas) but it had to happen as a fleet of four aircraft was extremely inefficent in terms of spares, engineering support and training costs. Also the pitiful range (inability in some WX conditions of flying SYD-PER) and high fuel flow (approx 1.7t/hr more) compared to the B767 meant that they had to go. The huge expansion of the domestic operation did enable the B767 fleet to be increased in size which gave the "Q" pilots some of the promotion opportunities that their "A" pilot colleages were enjoying. You refer to the marginalisation of A300 pilots onto the B737, but in effect, their was no choice because of "grandfather rights" which is something that the "A" pilots were happy to agree to in 1992 as the alternative of datal seniority was unacceptable to them because of the subject we're not allowed to mention on this forum. Overall, the Integration Agreement has served the majority of "A" pilots very well with many who joined TN in 1991 achieving their command before 2000.

AIPA did not shaft the TN pilots and only has respect for the J8, Eastern and Sunstate pilots. They will only end up with better T's & C's as well as career prospects if they join forces against Dixon & Oldmeadow.

[VH-JJW]

Reeltime - you are quite correct, it was TN, post edited to correct.

The 'Y' was very effective at segregating the TN pilot group. There is no point debating with you about the fairness of the agreement. I would consider it quite fair if I was Q list too!

I agree that the JPC struck a very poor deal on the widebody. Are you suggesting that AIPA would have negotiated THEM a better one?

[golow]

Genex sounds like some of the pilots I have to fly with. They will tell you all flight how our wages have to be low and conditions not like the big carriers.
Brain washed big time.
Then after their 7 or 8 minute brief for landing ( by which time they have put me to sleep)they will tell me how AJ has to have big wage rises or he will go some where else and he is really good for Jetstar.

[No Idea Either]

Golow,

Are you joking? Are there really pilots with that attitude in J*?. Nothing will change!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Going Boeing]

I agree that the JPC struck a very poor deal on the widebody. Are you suggesting that AIPA would have negotiated THEM a better one?
Yes, Many phonecalls and emails were sent to RH offering advice, analysis and support. It appeared at the time that none of this was passed on to other members of the JPC. You would recall that with the first Jetstar deal (Impulse pilots to fly the A320) that Dixon held a loaded gun to the heads of the Impulse pilots - SIGN UP OR ELSE. there was no loaded gun when the widebody award was offered. More skilled industrial staff would have advised ways of achieving more. ie I sent an e-mail to RH asking him to consider separating the various types ie A330-200, B787-8 and B787-9. The extra efficiency of the B787-9 over the -8 which was more efficient than the A332 meant that J* Intl had a capacity to pay more on the more efficient types. Instead, the JPC meekly accepted one award (with relatively poor remuneration and conditions) for all widebody types that J* purchases - even A380's (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

Experienced industrial support would have resulted in a much better CA.

One of the concerns now is that as Jetstar is inexperienced in introducing a new type, the B787 aircraft may not come fitted with various items that will be required by mainline. The first 15 are -8's which eventually (when they are replaced in J* by -9's) will be transferred to mainline for primarily domestic/Tasman flying. Various items that are required by mainline will have to be fitted at great expense after transfer, whereas if they had been factory fitted, the cost would be considerably less. The QF GM Technical has been trying to get things factory fitted prior to delivery to J* but unfortunately, he is not receiving much support from his J* equivalent. I hope that the two groups can work together to get the best aircraft possible.

[Jetsbest]

I am genuinely intrigued. How is it that some pilots can be cautious with weather forecasts, meticulous with the facts of an MEL and its application, sticklers for SOPs & procedures and yet buy management spin as if it's gospel every time? :rolleyes:

In efforts to contain or lower costs an airline can:
- shorten the seat pitch to fit more passengers in,
- minimise the services offered (lounges, bag transfers, meals etc),
- make passengers pay for what they actually use,
- employ staff numbers commensurate with the reduced services it offers, and
- always keep pounding the line that it'll all be unviable if it pays pilots more.

What an airline can't escape is:
- fees charges associated with flying and infrastructure,
- fuel costs,
- maintenance costs(one hopes anyway!), and
- the need for pilots (among some other indispensible skill-sets).

How is it then, that;
- J*'s AJ, SW et al command world-leading packages for their job-descriptions and company size but their pilots accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability? :hmm:
- despite doing the same job as any others in RPT (ie on the pointy side of the flight-deck door) LCC pilots in Oz seem to accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability? :ugh:
- many pilots seem unable to seperate seat pitch, services and pay-for-extras in LCCs from the pivotal and unchanging obligations of the pilots (& engineers for that matter) whether LCC or 'full-service'. :sad:

I live in hope that improved situational awareness of pilot shortages, and the fact that NO airline can make money without pilots, will help the "we can't afford to be paid more or life won't be worth living" crowd wake up and more astutely value their services. ;)

[Capt Wally]

......."jetsbest"............couldn't agree with you more there on yr post, (well compossed actually) but it's time to awake from the dream yr in. :)!
Still I like a good bedtime story !:)

CW:)

[lambsie]

Going Boeing stated:
"Industrially, each pilot group will negotiate for their terms and conditions but will have the full industrial experience of AIPA to assist them in their negotiations so you won'r get mainline interfering with J*,Eastern, Sunstate negotiations."
AIPA COM is stacked with very senior -400 Captains whose sole aim in life is feathering the nests of senior -400 Captains. Current EBA negotiations are a secret as to the T&C's and in fact it looks like the 767 will be hung out to dry AGAIN with some sort of bizarre hybrid SH/LH domestic award. Don't anyone think there are professional negotiators in AIPA - they are just line pilots with an inflated sense of self importance.
We desperately need professional negotiators from the corporate sector, but alas, pilots know best. :ugh:

[Going Boeing]

Lambsie, what your saying refers to mainline issues. I was trying to explain how the system would work for J*, Eastern & Sunstate - they basically will have control of their own negotiations with support from the industrial staff at AIPA. I understand the perception out there that -400 captains look after themselves at AIPA but the problem is that COM members from other fleets do not have enough time off to do all the work so it inevitably is left to -400 pilots. EBA's 5 & 6 did have B767 issues at the forefront of negotiations with significant protections built into the Certified Agreement wrt domestic flying. A lot of current pilots have forgotten how bad it was prior to those EBA's.

Professional negotiators is a great idea, except for the fact that it takes a long time for them to get their head around the implications of any changes on a flying profession. What seems acceptable to a desk bound professional may be totally unsuitable to a pilot. It's a much shorter time frame to train pilots in industrial negotiations (with industrial staff/lawyers present at negotiations). The current AIPA negotiators did have training with a professional prior to the commencement of negotiations with Oldmeadow's team of thugs and standard procedure is that no agreement is considered firm at the meetings so that they can return to the AIPA offices and dissect all the discussions at length to look for any hidden long term consequences.

I know, at times of major disenchantment with the direction that Dixon is taking this company, it is easy to say that AIPA is not doing enough for each group (eg B767) but that is simply falling for Oldmeadow's traps - we must remain united as a pilot group to achieve the best outcome.

[Capt Kremin]

Lambsie, you and everyone on the 767, plus everyone else who has the 767 factored into their career path will have a vote on the EBA before it becomes the contract won't you?

There has been enough silly rumour mongering over this EBA already. Why don't you wait and see what the guys come up with?

[lambsie]

Would it not be better to ask us what we'd like or what's important before we get to the voting stage? COM have had over a year to request or acknowledge input for the EBA8 negotiations and, zip, nothing. Waiting for the vote just drags out the process much longer than needed. It's ridiculous to expect -400 pilots to know what's going on, on the 767 or any other fleet for that matter.

[bb744]

Now now fellas settle down after all Lambsie knows best - after all he is a pilot. Refer to the last 3 words of post #26

[Keg]

Perhaps you didn't read the bursts last year lambsie that asked for pilot input as to what sorts of things they wanted out of the EBA. Input was requested to be emailed to the office as well as direct to the negotiating team. I spoke to one of the negotiators at some length about the issue and there wasn't much coming from the line apart from general concepts such as 'pay rise', 'more time off', etc. Anything more specific was considered as part of the grand scheme of things and factored into the discussions.

[Just Relaxin]

I can assure you that the AIPA EBA negotiators have the requisite knowledge and experience to negotiate on at least a level playing field if not with some advantage over the company negotiators. In fact one of them has in the past undertaken a course with the Institute of Arbitrators and Mediators of Australia (IAMA) as well as holding an LLB and an LLM from ANU which includes, amongst other subjects, Negotiation.

As far as lambsie stating that “…AIPA COM is stacked with very senior -400 Captains whose sole aim in life is feathering the nests of senior -400 Captains. Current EBA negotiations are a secret as to the T&C's and in fact it looks like the 767 will be hung out to dry AGAIN with some sort of bizarre hybrid SH/LH domestic award.” is absolute garbage and reflects that he has not spoken to any of the negotiators. You will find those that have taken some of their own time to do so have a completely different and far more balanced view of the direction of the negotiations.

[SIUYA]

Interesting thread! Maybe the doubters should have a look at:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305752

Newsweek: Airlines Brace for Pilot Shortage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Airlines In The Brace Position
Air travel is booming as the world gets richer. But one issue looms: who will pilot all those planes?

By George Wehrfritz
NEWSWEEK
Updated: 12:46 PM ET Dec 15, 2007

...the pilot crisis is a global one. In a report issued in late November, the Geneva-based International Air Transport Association (IATA) announced that the industry would need some 17,000 new pilots annually over the next two decades to keep up with demand.

and:

Together, the two main airframe makers are expected to sell a record 2,100 planes worldwide by the time the 2007 books are closed.

Let's see.............2,100 two-crew airframes at 5 crews each is 21,000 pilots, so it's pretty close to the IATA figure of 17,000 new pilots annually.

Yes and with that sort of growth, then the comment by AIPA Solicitor Tony Macken of A. J. Macken & Co. is spot on, i.e., the decision by the Full Bench to give AIPA constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group DOES indeed modernise the industrial coverage of Australian airline pilots.

While the demand for pilots here in OZ isn't anywhere near 21,000 or 17,000 per annum, it's still going to be a respectable number I reckon. So, if as Mr Macken has pointed out, that the legal position of the industrial coverage of airline pilots has now caught up with the industrial reality, then it seems it's almost certainly also reached the economic reality of demand for pilots exceeding supply, and as such, improvements in pilots' T&Cs now seems inevitable.

Still not a believer? Have another look at the same NEWSWEEK article..............

...pilot pay keeps rising. After a two-year negotiation, Hong Kong's Dragonair offered its pilots a 20 percent raise in mid-December, affirming that pilots are in the driver's seat.

Pity I retired a couple of years ago! :(

May the force be with you! Keep the faith and T&Cs will get better this coming year.

Merry Xmas all. :)

[amos2]

Tony Macken?... of A J Macken and Co?.... Representing the AIPA?

Strewth, do some homework guys!...like back to 1972!!

Get real, get good representation...not that turkey!!

Macken will screw you, believe me!!

Research Australian aviation industrial history!

Go back to 69' and start from there!

You will be surprised!

Mackens history, like Tony North (remember that name?)...

is quite simple...

you get screwed, I make a pile of dough and progress through the judicial ranks, at your expense!!

[PlankBlender]

Anyone who knows a bit about the partly very efficient union setups in Europe, cannot help but shake his or her head at the fragmentation and inefficiency of pilot organisations in this country! :ooh:

Maybe there wasn't a point in the past because the pilots had no real punch anyway in a market flooded with starry-eyed Howard Hughes wannabes.. :eek: BUT: since the supply and demand of drivers is clearly changing around the world, and no matter how much some people try to broadcast the contrary, this change WILL be felt in Australia by all parties over the coming years.

Hence there is a once in a lifetime chance, a limited window of opportunity, to get set up as a community so the pilots' interests can be looked after properly in those interesting years to come!

I can only plead with the various parties trying to better aviators' lots: Sit down to talk between yourselves, check your egos at the door, merge into ONE union, and if the experience in the rest of the world is anything to go by, we're all going to be better off no matter what the rank, age, or employer. :ok:

To get things started, I propose a poll amongst pilots. Given pilots are on the whole a clever and educated bunch :}, I should think there would be an overwhelming majority for such a move. Needless to say this would create a dynamic energy that would be felt and heard all over the country, and might even (okay, dreaming now) convince the public that in order to save the essential regional transport infrastructure in this country, one might have to pay 109 bucks instead of 99 on a given route.. (dream mode off)

What are we waiting for? :confused::ok::eek: