YOUR INSTRUCTOR--Friend or Foe?

[llanfairpg]

What do you think of your instructor?

How do you think his/her technique could improve?(audible,content,clarity,knowledge,interest, etc)

Does he/she dive on the controls just as you are about to make a correction?

Is he/she relaxed when giving instruction?

Do you get a 10-15 minute briefing before each flight?

Do you feel your instructor is really interested in you?

Do you feel you are getting value for money?

Are you learning to a syllabus or does it just seem haphazard?

Do you get the impression that everything is being rushed.

Would you change instructors given the chance and if so, why?

I would be interested to know your thoughts.

[Spruit]

So far i've had 2 instructors and both have been fantastic IMHO.

Current one is relaxed, NEVER jumps on the controls, is positive even when i'm making an horrendous mess of things (Which let's face it, is regular) Breifing happens if it's needed.

I'm learning the sylabus and it's never ever felt rushed, for me rushed is unsafe!

All in all a good experience, it's (kindda) expensive this whole flying malarchy but I do feel like I get good value for money, but above all of this, I love what i'm doing!

Flyings fantastic and even tho I cannot (Currently) realise my ultimate ambition of becoming a commercial pilot due to my CVD (even tho it's only them :mad: machines that think it) I love to fly and from the moment I request "To Land" to the next moment I step out the door to pre-flight I feel like i'm missing something :)

Enough waffle me thinks!

Spru!

[VFR Transit]

What do you think of your instructor?
My instructor is called Richard at EGSL, and i wuld not change him at all.

How do you think his/her technique could improve?(audible,content,clarity,knowledge,interes t, etc)
My instructor has a great wa of instructing and puts any point he needs to make as clear and in plain english (eg: remember this is the point people die)

Does he/she dive on the controls just as you are about to make a correction?
There has only been oe time when my instructor has made a dive for the controls, which was on a windy day and the plane had hit anair pocket and did the ballon effect

Is he/she relaxed when giving instruction?
Yes - (PM me for the story)

Do you get a 10-15 minute briefing before each flight?
Not always as the slots are 1 hr 30 and if he is running late we will have a chat on the way down to the hold.

Do you feel your instructor is really interested in you?
I think he is interested in my progress and wants to see the best in me show at all times, as for a friend i doubt it.

Do you feel you are getting value for money?
Compared to someo te prices out there, i really do thng i get a first class service and a great price.

Are you learning to a syllabus or does it just seem haphazard?
I am trained to A.O.P.A syllabus and is great (i have no complaints)

Do you get the impression that everything is being rushed.
Not at all if i feel im being rushed i just say and we take i a little slower, if i have any problems i just yell and they changeto suit me (remember students are the customers)

Would you change instructors given the chance and if so, why?
NO WAY i like the way Richard instructs me and his method

I would be interested to know your thoughts.
SEE ABOVE :}

Thanks
VFR

[llanfairpg]

Great stuff, it make me remember why i took up instructing!

[VFR Transit]

Great stuff, it make me remember why i took up instructing!

I would not say that i you knew what i know about you :}

VFR

[llanfairpg]

Am i bothered?

[VFR Transit]

Am i bothered?

yeah but no but yeah like am i bothered :}

I am only joking

VFR

[llanfairpg]

yea but i said am i bothered

[VFR Transit]

Not sure are you???? :}

VFR

[llanfairpg]

Only about you getting a PPL safely

[TurboJ]

Do you get a 10-15 minute briefing before each flight?
Not always as the slots are 1 hr 30 and if he is running late we will have a chat on the way down to the hold.

That is so gash, IMHO - how can you absorb any sort of briefing whilst taxiing ??

[llanfairpg]

Sorry VFR wasnt going to mention this but as Turbo has picked it up I might as well comment.

One of the golden rules of instruction is to brief the student before he/she operates the controls, this can be applied to a classroom briefing or before handing control to the student. Briefing while taxying is not the hallmark of good instruction by any means.

You are paying a lot of money to learn to fly, excuses like we are running late translate into we are badly organised and do not really care.

[PompeyPaul]

I don't have an instructor, coz I'm totally leet!

I have a cool co-pilot though, his name is Chewie and he's a Wookie.

[FullyFlapped]

Are you learning to a syllabus or does it just seem haphazard?
I am trained to A.O.P.A syllabus and is great (i have no complaints)


Eh ? :confused:

FF :ok:

[maxdrypower]

Yeh AOPA ???? Whats this ??? , that must be where the air pockets make ya balloon
JOKE:}

[bjornhall]

What do you think of your instructor?

Excellent! Really knows his stuff, experienced in both flying and instructing, the perfect balance between easy-going and focused.

How do you think his/her technique could improve?(audible,content,clarity,knowledge,interes t, etc)

I'm not really the person to answer that; whenever I am training for something I make sure I adapt to whatever style the teacher or instructer uses... I haven't had anything to complain about with this one.

Does he/she dive on the controls just as you are about to make a correction?

Never happened.

Is he/she relaxed when giving instruction?

Absolutely!

Do you get a 10-15 minute briefing before each flight?

At least; no exceptions.

Do you feel your instructor is really interested in you?

In the way you hopefully mean, yes!

Do you feel you are getting value for money?

To an extent, but not enough. Not my instructor's fault tho'; since we're both really busy in our day jobs our schedules rarely match, and if they do there is weather, daylight and aircraft availability to take into account. The school does not use a system where the student picks whichever instructor happens to be available for a particular spot. Flying with the same instructor is probably the best way in general, but not if it means only getting 1 - 2 lessons per month!

Are you learning to a syllabus or does it just seem haphazard?

Syllabus, although things are sometimes done out of sequence when weather dictates.

Do you get the impression that everything is being rushed.

Not at all! If anything, it's me being impatient...

Would you change instructors given the chance and if so, why?

Certainly not! I would however like to have more than one instructor to choose from, to be able to fly more often. I have changed instructors involuntarily a couple times already as they have moved up the ladder, and IMV it's no big deal, but I wouldn't want to change.

I would be interested to know your thoughts.

[SkyHawk-N]

I just counted up how many instructors I had, the total came to ELEVEN.

Some were better teachers than others, some were more fun than others and some tried harder than others. I didn't mind changing between them, I learned something new each time.

[Redbird72]

What do you think of your instructor?

Excellent. He's experienced, relaxed and easy to talk to.

How do you think his/her technique could improve? (audible,content,clarity,knowledge,interest, etc)

No. A couple of times I wondered if we'd moved too quickly, only to find I had learnt more than I thought I had! He can always answer my questions and decode things into plain English.

Does he/she dive on the controls just as you are about to make a correction?

Nope. I'm always given the opportunity to self correct, he only takes control when demonstrating or when the right thing must be done expediously and I'm failing to do so, even when told.

Is he/she relaxed when giving instruction?

Yes. Don't know how you guys do it!

Do you get a 10-15 minute briefing before each flight?

My school books 2 hour slots for 1 hours flight - so generally 30 mins minimum in the classroom and I'm can take my time over the pre-flight checks (within reason). The debrief and log books are generally a further 15 mins plus. I generally spend at about 2.5 hours at the school per lesson, although that includes gassing with the other studes, post-grads and ops people!

Do you feel your instructor is really interested in you?

I think so, it certainly feels that way.

Do you feel you are getting value for money?

Yes. It's not the cheapest school, but the tuition is great and I get ad hoc help with my ground studies without extra charge.

Are you learning to a syllabus or does it just seem haphazard?

I get a very clear sense of following a syllabus.

Do you get the impression that everything is being rushed.

No, but see the answer to Q2.

Would you change instructors given the chance and if so, why?

No, I like the consistency of having one instructor.

That's my h'pny worth - hopefully of help.:ok:
Red.

[llanfairpg]

Very Interesting

Seems the booking slot of 2 hours produces less waiting or running late but aircraft only earn money in the air.

[Redbird72]

There is a degree of overlap - on occasion the aircraft has been out with another instructor and returns during my briefing. Likewise, it is passed over to another pair during my debrief.

[llanfairpg]

Running the programme is the hardest job in the school and needs a special skill to get it right

[17thhour]

What do you think of your instructor?

Perfect, expreienced, always reliable, interested in aviation, instructs full time having retired from career.

How do you think his/her technique could improve?(audible,content,clarity,knowledge,interes t, etc)

honestly wouldnt change it.

Does he/she dive on the controls just as you are about to make a correction?

nope.

Is he/she relaxed when giving instruction?

Definently
Do you get a 10-15 minute briefing before each flight?

Always, sometimes longer and in more depth than required, which is what I want.

Do you feel your instructor is really interested in you?

Yes i get the impression he cares about his work not doing it for a living.
Do you feel you are getting value for money?

Certainly am, with briefings not included.

Apart from landing fees of course!!


Are you learning to a syllabus or does it just seem haphazard?

Syllabus, all well strucured and clearly set out what I will be doing and whats next or what to read up on etc.

Do you get the impression that everything is being rushed.

Nope, all done at a good pace that i can absorb information.

Would you change instructors given the chance and if so, why?

Although it would be good to see different techniques, Id rather wait untill I have something to compare it all too.

So no I wouldnt.

[llanfairpg]

Thanks for taking the trouble to answer ALL of those questions I was rather meaning you just picked out one or two!!.

Reading them again I get the impression that some of you are not aware of a syllabus EG you may be unsure of what you are going to do on the next lesson, am i right?

[FlyingForFun]

I'd be curious about the break-up of hours which your instructor has, besides you, and how this affects the program.

It's been a while since I was involved in PPL instructing, but my previous school used to give me 75 minutes per student. My first thought when I started working there was how the hell am I supposed to brief, fly and debrief my student in that time?

Actually, because the program contained a lot of 20 and 30 minute trial lessons (they have a fairly short brief - don't want to overload a trial lesson with theory beyond what they'll need; they are shorter than a typical lesson; and the de-brief is very short for the typical student who has expressed no desire to take the training any further), I always, without exception, managed to find time to brief and debrief every single student for every single flight (including trial lessons). There were other factors at this school which helped, e.g. PPL volunteers who would refuel aircraft, etc, so I would always make sure the volunteers knew my requirements if I had a particularly busy day..... but I'm curious about how a typical instructor's day at another school is made up, especially if the instructors are so pushed for time they have to brief whilst taxying.

FFF
---------------

[llanfairpg]

I worked at a couple of schools with 1hr 15 mins slots--hillarious.

You knew if you were on first you might be lucky and get away on time but if you were last flight of the day it may be 30 mins duration or cancelled.

As long as the aircraft fly that all that matters--some flying club owners actually believed that students liked hanging around in the school waiting!!!!

Service with a snarl

[dah dahdit dah]

Why do instructors come on here and create threads to pick holes in other instructors?

I've briefed while on the taxi out - I must be s&%t. I've also gone through the start up to save time because I've been running late - double s%$t:ugh:

we've all done it at some point! too many hypocritical high hourses round here.:=

[foxmoth]

I don't think it is necessarily the instructor who is at fault here rather the school that allocates the available time. Ideally aircraft would have 1:15 slots and instructors 2:30 slots with 2 instructors/aircraft, though a larger school could reduce the instructor time and swap instructors between aircraft. For normal 1 hour PPL slots the minimum instructor time should be 1:45 (15 min brief,15 min walk out and preflight, 1hour flying and 15 mins for walk in & debrief. Often not practical though.:\

[llanfairpg]

Why do instructors come on here and create threads to pick holes in other instructors?

I created the thread and it certainly wasnt for the purpose of picking holes in other instructors I was actually more interested in picking holes in myself and listening to the experiences of students from other clubs/schools, an opportunity I cannot get anywhere else.

I have done a few stupid things in my flying career but I have never yet briefed anyone while taxing and certainly no instructor who has ever worked for me has done that either. If you are running late you adjust the programme not the level of service you are giving to the customer. The student is paying for a briefing before the lesson so thats what they should get.

Why get yourself into a position, especially in flying, that you have to be in a hurry? Being in a hurry is usually a false perception brought on by poor planning and discipline both of which are qualities that have no place in a professional flying school.

[Katherine Alexandra]

One of my instructors gave me 2 briefings out of about 25 flights, but that worked alright for me, in the end, as I learnt really well from his flying techniques instead. If I ever had a problem, I knew he'd attempt to try and rectify it.

I had another instructor who, whilst very good in general, though I only flew with her twice, wouldn't let me do the R/T in the circuit. Fair enough if you're just starting but I was on my 3rd flight before my Skills Test, so it was a bit of a pain. At that point, you just want someone there to check you're not going to kill anyone! However, saying that, I guess it's worked with past students as then they've had fewer things to concentrate on and hence can refine their circuit work. Maybe?

[llanfairpg]

One of my instructors gave me 2 briefings out of about 25 flights, but that worked alright for me, in the end, as I learnt really well from his flying techniques instead. If I ever had a problem, I knew he'd attempt to try and rectify it.But if you had of been briefed how much different would your training have been.

I went to an industrial tribunal with a CFI once who had been sacked.

One student stood up in the court and said" On my 23rd flying lesson I found out the aircraft was fitted with flaps.

This student who qualified after 80 hours(the school average) didnt learn too well from his instructors flying technique. (only taught flapless approaches)

[llanfairpg]

I had another instructor who, whilst very good in general, though I only flew with her twice, wouldn't let me do the R/T in the circuit. Fair enough if you're just starting but I was on my 3rd flight before my Skills Test, so it was a bit of a pain. At that point, you just want someone there to check you're not going to kill anyone! However, saying that, I guess it's worked with past students as then they've had fewer things to concentrate on and hence can refine their circuit work. Maybe?

Some instructors are too helpful--a good intention but poor technique. We learn best by doing things ourselves

[Katherine Alexandra]

I completely agree, especially so close to Skills Test, where the examiner wasn't going to do it for me.

However, it's not done me any harm in the long run and I'd still fly with the instructor again :)

[Fake Sealion]

Who operated the radio during your solo circuit consolidation phase?

:eek:

[Katherine Alexandra]

Oh, I just stayed quiet ;)

[kevmusic]

During my long, long career as a PPL stude, and as a glider pilot, I've had LOADS of instructors, and most were very good. One or two, however, have made a bad impression and one of them was recently. He jumped on the controls in every phase of flight and, despite my comparative experience, made my confidence plummet. I discussed it a little while ago on the FI's forum and it helped me change back to an instructor I was happy with.

Kev.

[TheOddOne]

Our school might be regarded as fairly expensive, but I'm allocated a 2-hour slot per 1-hour student flight. Even then, with a low-hour student, a proper brief and making them do all the checks correctly in accordance with our very comprehensive checklist, I do struggle to fit it in. We do 'aircraft-share' amongst instructors to maximise utilisation.

Of course, for a longer 'nav-ex' lesson, more time is allocated, but there is still 30 mins brief and de-brief built-in each side of the aircraft time.

We record all time in so-called 'decimal' time, i.e. blocks of 6 mins. We're allowed 6 mins each side of airborne; whilst taxying in and shutdown might only take 3-4 mins, frequently brakes-off to airborne might be 15-20 mins to go through the checks properly. The student only pays for 6 mins of this.

Perhaps we should declare our charges for the full time allocated rather than just the flight time; that way our rates would appear to be around the cheapest!!

TheOddOne

[maxdrypower]

Reading them again I get the impression that some of you are not aware of a syllabus EG you may be unsure of what you are going to do on the next lesson, am i right?
Are you aiming this question at PPL holders or those that instruct it ? :}
The subtle piss taking was due to your AOPA Syllabus quote .
The requirements of qualifying for a PPL are laid down in stone by the CAA not the AOPA (Or so I was brought up to believe ) . Most flying schools will teach to a tried and tested syllabus . not sure to be honest where it exactly came from but you will notice that it bears a very striking resemblance to the exercises laid down in the Trevor Thom Book One .Perhaps Llanfairpg knows the exact genetics
This is a logical syllabus , after all you wouldnt do a first lesson on Unusual attitudes before you've done effects of controls , or at least one would hope not . You wil also find no mention of air pockets in any Met manual available currently , although I stand to be corrected :}:}. Ballooning is more often caused by the seat to stick interface rather than any Wx phenomena .
But again I stand to be corrected :} , on all counts

[Tony Hirst]

The current PPL syllabus has its roots in a training scheme devised by a particular officer (I don't know his name!) in response to accidents and the rather variable quality of pilots post training. This was devised shortly after WW1 I believe. He is the person who defined the exact same "Exercises" that we use today (except for radio nav). But straight and level, circuits, PFLs, etc, all the same apparently.


Standing by for mild tirade from IO540 about out dated this that and the other :E

[maxdrypower]

Aha WW1 that would be as a result of these then :-

The following safety tips from Daedalian Foundation are excerpts from
Royal Flying Corps monthly report of December 1917. The report was
signed C. St. John-Culbertson, Royal Flying Corps Colonel and was dated
21 December, 1917.

INTRODUCTION
Another good month. In all, a total of 35 accidents were reported, only
six of which were avoidable. These represented a marked improvement over
the month of November during which 84 accidents occurred, of which 23
were avoidable. This improvement, no doubt, is the result of experienced
pilots with over 100 hours in the air forming the backbone of all the
units.

RESUME OF ACCIDENTS
Avoidable Accidents

1. There were six avoidable accidents this last month:

a. The pilot of a Shorthorn, with over 7 hours of experience, seriously
damaged the undercarriage on landing. He had failed to land at as fast a
speed as possible as recommended in the Aviation Pocket Handbook.

b. A B.E.2 stalled and crashed during an artillery exercise. The pilot
had been struck on the head by the semaphore of his observer who was
signaling to the gunners.

c. Another pilot in a B.E.2 failed to get airborne, an error in
judgment, as he was attempting to fly at mid-day instead of at the
recommended best lift periods, which are just after dawn and just before
sunset.

d. A Longhorn pilot lost control and crashed in a bog near
Chipping-Sedbury. An error of skill on the part of the pilot in not
being able to control a machine with a wide speed band of 10 MPH between
top speed and stalling speed.

e. While low flying in a Shorthorn the pilot crashed into the top deck
of a horse drawn bus near Stonehenge.

f. A B.E.2 pilot was seen to be attempting a banked turn at a constant
height before he crashed. A grave error by an experienced pilot.

Unavoidable Accidents

2. There were 29 unavoidable accidents from which the following 3 are
selected:

a. The top wing of a Camel fell off due to fatigue failure of the flying
wires. A successful emergency landing was carried out.

b. Sixteen B.E.2's and 9 Shorthorns had complete engine failures. A
marked improvement over November's fatigue.

c. Pigeons destroyed a Camel and 2 Longhorns after mid-air strikes.

COST OF ACCIDENTS

Accidents during the last three months of 1917 cost 317 pounds, 10
shillings sixpence, money down the drain and sufficient to buy new
gaiters and spurs for each and every pilot observer in the Service.

ACCIDENT BRIEFS

No. 1 Brief
No. 912 Squadron, 3 December 1917

Aircraft type B.E.2C, No. KY678, Total Solo - - 4.20 Pilot Lt. J.
Smyth-Worthington, Solo in type - - 1.10

The pilot of this flying machine attempted to maintain his altitude in a
turn at 2,500 feet. This resulted in the airplane entering an
unprecedented maneuver, entailing a considerable loss of height. Even
with full power applied and the control column fully back, the pilot was
unable to regain control. However, upon climbing from the cockpit onto
the lower mainplane, the pilot managed to correct the machine's
altitude, and by skillful manipulation of the flying wires successfully
side -slipped into a nearby meadow.

Remarks: Although, through inexperience, this pilot allowed his
aeroplane to enter an unusual attitude, his resourcefulness in
eventually landing without damage has earned him a unit citation.
R.F.C . Lundsford-Magnus is investigating the strange behaviour of this
aircraft.

No. 2 Brief
No. 847 Squadron, 19 December 1917

Aircraft Type Spotter Balloon J17983, total solo 107.00 Pilot Capt.
***, Solo in type 32.10

Capt * * * of the Hussars, a balloon observer, unfortunately allowed the
spike of his full-dress helmet to impinge against the envelope of his
balloon. There was a violent explosion and the balloon carried out a
series of fantastic and uncontrollable maneuvers, while rapidly emptying
itself of gas. The pilot was thrown clear and escaped injury as he was
lucky enough to land on his head.

Remarks This pilot was flying in full-dress uniform because he was the
Officer of the Day. In consequence it has been recommended that pilots
will not fly during periods of duty as Officer of the Day.

Captain* * * has requested an exchange posting to the Patroville Alps, a
well-known mule unit of the Basques

No. 3 Brief
Summary of No. 3 Brief dated October 1917 Major W. de Kitkag-Watney's
Neuport Scout was extensively damaged when it failed to become airborne.

The original court of Inquiry found that the primary cause of the
accident was carelessness and poor airmanship on the part of a very
experienced pilot.

The Commandant General, however, not being wholly convinced that Major
de Kitkag-Watney could be guilty of so culpable a mistake ordered that
the court should be re-convened.

After extensive inquiries and lengthy discussions with the Meteorlogical
Officer and Astronomer Royal, the Court came to the conclusion that the
pilot unfortunately was authorized to fly his aircraft on a day when
there was absolutely no lift in the air and could not be held
responsible for the accident.

The Court wishes to take this opportunity to extend congratulations to
Major de Kitkag-Watney on his reprieve and also on his engagement to the
Commandant General's daughter, which was announced shortly before the
accident.

FLYING SAFETY TIPS

Horizontal Turns
To take a turn the pilot should always remember to sit upright,
otherwise he will increase the banking of the aeroplane. He should never
lean over.

Crash Precautions
Every pilot should understand the serious consequences of trying to turn
with the engine off! It is much safer to crash into a house when going
forward than to sideslip or stall a machine with engine trouble.
Passengers should always use safety belts, as the pilot may start
stunting without warning. Never release the belt while in the air, or
when nosed down to land.

Engine Noises
Upon the detection of a knock, grind, rattle or squeak, the engine
should be at once stopped. Knocking or grinding accompanied by a squeak
indicates binding and a lack of lubricant.


WATCH THAT FIRST STEP
The First Marine Air Wing had this write up in their safety publication,
some 60 years ago:

It was conceded by all that the pilot had accomplished a brillant piece
of work in landing his disabled machine without damage under the
circumstances. It is not with intent to reflect less credit upon his
airmanship, but it must be noted that he is a well-experienced aviator
with over 40 total hours in the air, embracing a wide veriety of
machines, and this was his seventh forced landing due to complete
failure of the engine.

It was doubly unfortunate that upon alighting from his machine he missed
the catwalk on the lower airfoil and plunged both legs through the
fabric, straddling a rib, from which he received a grievous personal
injury.

Some thought should be devoted to a means of indentifying
wing-traversing catwalks to assist aviators in disembarking from their
various machines

[IRRenewal]

Why do instructors come on here and create threads to pick holes in other instructors?
Self gratification?

[VFE]

Quote:
Why do instructors come on here and create threads to pick holes in other instructors?

Self gratification?
Inactive sex life?

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

Why do instructors come on here and create threads to pick holes in other instructors?

Possibly for the same reasons as others who try to score points with inane comments

[llanfairpg]

Shame VFE that you can be so articulate and informative on other threads but feel the need to make such crass comments here. Personally trying to put me or others down, does that make you feel clever or good about yourself or is it just a feature of your character?

It is a shame that PPrune is moderated so poorly that people are allowed to make little contribution to a discussion other than trying to belittle others.

To the others on here who do want to discuss the original thread and have to wade through all this my apologies but it does seem to be a feature of this forum that a small minority feel that personal comments make them look smart and I suppose to those with similar character deficiencies it does.

[BRL]

To the others on here who do want to discuss the original thread and have to wade through all this my apologies but it does seem to be a feature of this forum that a small minority feel that personal comments make them look smart and I suppose to those with similar character deficiencies it does.

It has always been like this and it always will be, not only on this forum (pprune) but others too believe it or not. If you are not happy with it simply go elsewhere.

[kevmusic]

Here we go again. :rolleyes: :(

[llanfairpg]

It has always been like this and it always will be, not only on this forum (pprune) but others too believe it or not. If you are not happy with it simply go elsewhere.

Seems like many have

[BackPacker]

llanfairpg

It is a shame that PPrune is moderated so poorly that people are allowed to make little contribution to a discussion other than trying to belittle others.

I have been noticing a lot more posts by you here on PPRuNe lately. I used to respect your posts because you clearly have a lot of experience and said a lot of useful things.

But lately it seems like you've been going on a spree with the intention of posting in each and every thread here on the Private Flying forum. And to a large extent, it seems to be stuff that adds nothing to the discussion. Probably because you did not read through the thread before posting: A very quick search turned up 10 posts, in 10 different threads, all done in less than 30 minutes, last night. All posts were one-liners. Going back a little further turns up more such examples. I don't know about you, but I can't read a multi-page thread, find a worthwhile comment to add to the discussion, type it, proof read it and post it, all in the span of three minutes average.

So I'm very amazed to see a comment like the one above coming from your hand.

Granted, you do not belittle others, as far as I can tell, but equally a lot of your one-liners do not contribute anything to the discussion.

Well, at least, that's my way of seeing things. Please prove me wrong.

[llanfairpg]

Sorry its a one liner but havnt you got anything better to do than check to see how many posts I make and how many lines there are?

[BackPacker]

Given the fact that checking out a persons last 25 posts takes all of two mouseclicks and a 1-second wait here on PPRuNe, I think you can safely assume that I spent less time checking your history than you did typing that reply. Typos and all.

Seriously though. I'd rather see one post of you, in one thread, that you clearly spent 30 minutes on composing and fact checking, which contains useful additions to a discussion and is properly proofread, than 10 oneliners in 10 threads that contribute nothing at all. And I know you can do this.

[llanfairpg]

Maybe but as I say to new FIC students, we are all different, before trying to change others to our way of thinking it can be beneficial to try and understand how others think and react even though they may not agree with our way of thinking.

To use your own example, have you read through the thread here that I started (hardly a one liner) and have you made a contribution to INSTRUCTOR FRIEND OR FOE, I do not think so.

Two posters have said or implied that I started this thread for self-gratification or because I am sexually inactive, have you made any comment on that?

Besides the content do you think it is in order to make comments like that on a forum. If I asked you that question about flying instructors in a flying school would you say to me, ''Are you asking that question because you are sexually inactive?"

It would appear that these two characters are instructors, professionals who are trained to talk to other people, how sad to think that they can only express themselves in this way. VFE in particular makes some excellent posts that actually have something to say but I feel sorry for him because not only does he let himself down but our profession too. Perhaps you would like to comment on that too and I know you can do this?

As a matter of interest (as I previously stated) I posted the thread because I wanted the opportunity of listening to some of the comments from students about how they perceived their own instructor and the training environment they operate in so I could learn something from it. What I didn’t want to learn is that some instructors are even frightened of implied criticism.

[Contacttower]

I've got 25 instructors so far in my logbook and I think I've seen some of the best...and some of the worst. One was a test pilot and graduate of the Empire Test Pilots School at Boscombe Down who a long time ago was director of MOD test flying...he was pretty good!

The ex-RAF types always seem to be very good (funny that ;)) and as an RAF cadet the instructors always seemed good.

Some of the things I find irritating before/during a lesson:

Instructors who ask if I'd like a cup of tea or something before the lesson when we are already running late and I'd rather just go flying.

There was one instructor who I had for a while who didn't always give proper briefings...which would sometimes lead to me wondering what we were about to do.

Something that really irritates me is instructors who (probably unconsciously) reach for the yoke and give you a little bit of 'help' during a crosswind landing or something without warning. I find it distracting.

There have been one or two instructors who have given me tailwheel instruction and I've not really been conviced that they themselves were 'at home' enough with the aircraft in order to teach in it.

[llanfairpg]

CT at last, we are back on thread I thank you!

There was one instructor who I had for a while who didn't always give proper briefings...which would sometimes lead to me wondering what we were about to do.This used to be the rule, no briefings I can remember being told off for briefing(wasting time) by two clubs, seems to be much better these days.

Something that really irritates me is instructors who (probably unconsciously) reach for the yoke and give you a little bit of 'help' during a crosswind landing or something without warning. I find it distracting. This happens at all levels some of the older guys in our company used to ride FO's on the controls, seeems to have largely dissapeared now they have retired. Some pilots are just not 100% happy in the air so they never really relax, you get them in flying schools and airlines but if you think they are bad in training aircraft on a two crew flight deck when you are stuck with them for hours it can be murder

There have been one or two instructors who have given me tailwheel instruction and I've not really been conviced that they themselves were 'at home' enough with the aircraft in order to teach in it.I remember being taught crosswind landings by an instructor who couldnt do one but I also remember an instructor who couldnt teach them very well once, sadly it was me!

Interesting comments about RAF pilots, in our airline quite a few are seen as odd balls but my experience of RAF instructors is first class and the RAF UAS syllabus is excellent.

[VFE]

VFE in particular makes some excellent posts that actually have something to say but I feel sorry for him because not only does he let himself down but our profession too

Lighten up chap - you can't expect to muck spread your views all over an internet forum such as this and not expect some people to challenge your views or indeed, your online persona llanfairpg. Your 'style' on these pages is hardly wrapped with cotton wool, after what appears to be a lifetime spent working within aviation I would suggest you have learned to cope well with pilot banter but struggle reflecting this online...

But I draw the line with you, whoever you are, stating that I let the profession down. If you cannot supply me actual professional evidence justifying that statement then my advice to you would be to retract it very bloody quickly.

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

But I draw the line with you, whoever you are, stating that I let the profession down. If you cannot supply me actual professional evidence justifying that statement then my advice to you would be to retract it very bloody quickly. Own goal--lighten up

(There I go again, another one liner)

[gcolyer]

Is it me or is PPrune going down hill with absolute ****e being posted??

It seems people are looking to blow their own trumpet or seek glorification. It also seems like everyone is trying to play the "My dad is better than your dad" game.

Is it possible that we can allgrow up and get back to constructive and relevant discussions?

[llanfairpg]

Yes you are right and yet again I apologise, please try and stick to the thread

[VFE]

Own goal--lighten up
(There I go again, another one liner)
Yes but just a shame it's not funny!

Seriously now, where do you get off telling me that I let the profession down simply because of a few quips on this forum which only you took personally? Look around, did you not realise (or did somebody not tell him?) that this place isn't actually 'work'! It is just a recreational internet bulletin board for discussing pilot topics. You may enjoy the pretence of being sat across us all in some mythical pokey portacabin office on some freezing fogged out poxy airfield, but the reality is mate - this website was designed as an online bar room for light hearted exchange of gossip, industry rumours, and general banter... that sorta fing..... back in the days... yanno?

One would suggest you have failed to grasp this fact. But if you are going to start taking all this so deadly serious then be very careful when you start calling into question the integrity of posters here. You signed a disclaimer when you joined, might be worth reading it again.... if you wanna get all serious, that is.

VFE.

[llanfairpg]

if you wanna get all serious, that is.

I am interested in listening to the views of pilots as per the original thread including yours, if you feel trying to belittle people is a valid contribution to the thread then we will just have to disagree, however there are one or two on here who do also just want to stick to the thread and have an intelligent discussion, please allow them to do so.

[maxdrypower]

Well my Dads 6ft 4 if thats worth any Kudos

[gcolyer]

maxdrypower

I will deal with that comment if I see you on IoM during TT next year!:eek:

[maxdrypower]

Excellent Gary look forward to it , I have the A/C booked but am hoping to be dling my IR then so may not make it . The Aircraft will though there are a few going

[machel]

My first instructor was excellent. I hadn't got a clue - despite reading the books - about how the ailerons worked in opposition to each other; couldn't figure out what yaw was all about, and just generally couldn't visualise what the books were talking about. My first instructor gave excellent briefings, using a little aircraft which made everything so clear.

He did the same in the air. His demonstrations were very clear, and if I didn't understand something, he talked me through it.

I then went out to Florida to do the rest of my training and thanked God that I had had that first instructor. My instructor in Florida was more intent on having fun in the aircraft himself. He flew it himself for the first 2 hours - told me to sit and watch the view.

He couldn't teach me how to flare. It wasn't just me - there was another guy in exactly the same boat.

When I finally mastered that, with the help of another instructor, I went solo having not done any training for EFATO, stalls, steep turns, slow flight, etc. Basically, my first 14 hours with that guy was spent with him flying the aircraft for the vast majority of the time. He loved showing me how he could get it to fly "backwards" in a strong wind!

I got another, far better and more diligent instructor and went on from there - and completed my training in the 45 hours out there. Fortunately, as I've said, I had that excellent instructor at home who gave me a good grounding in the circuit drills, and who also did some of the handling with me before I left for Florida.

My first instructor was in a school based on an RAF base. The standard of instruction there was excellent and it was the same no matter which instructor you got. They all taught to exactly the same specification.

The contrast between there and the school in Florida was night and day. Some of the instructors in Florida were excellent but there was no policing of the instructors and I know that all of the students in Florida who had the same instructor as I did said exactly the same thing.

[Chequeredflag]

OK Llanfair, I'll answer your question! My instructor is VERY much my friend, and since he coaxed me through my Skills Test at East Mids FS a couple of years ago, he has also become a good pal too. We still fly together from time to time, firstly because he's a bloody good instructor and I never stop learning from him, and secondly because we have a damned good laugh! Strange though, I still have to buy the bacon butties wherever we go, though he does handle the radio which he thinks is the quid pro quo!!
Oh yes, and I still have to pay for the aeroplane too!!

[llanfairpg]

Thanks to both of you and apologies that the forum went a little bit off track while some of our instructor friends dealt with their egoes and others booked aircraft for the Isle of Man.

The original post was a little toungue in cheek, I really just wanted to know how you felt about the level of instruction from your instructor and how the school/club played their part too.

Machel you man in Florida wasnt an instructor, he was a commentator there are plenty about even over here! Your RAF experience sounds like Woodvale!!!

Chequered flag -- yes sometimes an instructor becomes a very good friend but at the end of the day an instructor isnt realy there to make friends with students he/she is there to teach them to fly. In fact it calls for a lot of social skills and instructional technique to instruct someone you cannot actually stand the sight of. Its always easy to teach people you like.

[machel]

llanfairpg, my RAF experience was actually at Kinloss - north-east Scotland. They have a set syllabus, and set ways of teaching and all of the instructors have to use the same methods. There's always a briefing before the flight, and always a de-brief.

In Florida, 90% of the time the briefing and de-brief happened in the aircraft while taxiing, if they happened at all. I would be sent out to pre-flight the aircraft while the Instructor wrote up the paperwork for the previous flight with the previous student, and then he would come out and join me when I'd started the aircraft up.

In fact, my first Instructor in Florida hadn't even heard of HASELL or HELL checks! It was news to him when I mentioned them.:confused:

I had total confidence in my Instructor at Kinloss - but very little in the first one out in Florida.

I would say, though, if you don't like your Instructor, it can make for an interesting flight. Speaking from experience, if there's mutual dislike, it doesn't bring out the best in the student.

[llanfairpg]

In Florida, 90% of the time the briefing and de-brief happened in the aircraft while taxiing, if they happened at all. I would be sent out to pre-flight the aircraft while the Instructor wrote up the paperwork for the previous flight with the previous student, and then he would come out and join me when I'd started the aircraft up.

Like I always say who would you rather was your instructor;
Gordon Brown of George Bush?

The problem with Americans is that they are just not British.

[llanfairpg]

OK but I bet someone else had to fill in his log book!

[Whirlybird]

The trouble with asking students about their instructor is that they're not in the best position to know!

I was a student once, doing my PPL(A). I thought the school was great, and the instructors were great. That was partly because I learned something every lesson. Well, you would, wouldn't you; it would be hard to learn nothing at all when you're starting out! It was also because everyone else said how good he was. Then later on I realised that his instructing 'technique' - yelling at every mistake and acting like an army sergeant major - may have worked for some people, but was probably part of the reason for my very slow progress, as I could never relax. :(

Move on a couple of years, to my PPL(H). A totally different type of instructor - relaxed, friendly, open, took me for lunch, always made sure he had something positive to say. It took me a long time to realise that I wasn't as good as I thought I was, because he was glossing over any mistakes, so that they became habits. And an even longer time to find out the things he hadn't taught me...because you don't know what it is that you don't know. Some things I didn't find out till my FI course, when the instructor sympathetically told me that I was finding things hard because I'd obviously not been very well taught in the beginning. :(

Now, as an instructor, I know I'm not perfect, and I won't ever be. I hope I've learned from my instructors' mistakes at least. I try to do my best. But on occasions, being human, I'm rushed, explain something badly, or don't teach as well as I know I can. Do my students get upset? On the contrary, most people are past masters at putting their instructors on pedestals and taking everything positively! Which is nice for us...but is it right for them? Perhaps they should be more critical, shop around more, be more prepared to leave a instructor who isn't absolutely right - after all, you're paying a small fortune to learn to fly. I remember one regular poster on this forum who had to be 'yelled' at by quite a few of us, till he left his obviously unsatisfactory instructor - he thanked us in the end. Someone else posted about having tolerated an instructor with an ego the size of a small country (nice turn of phrase; I've never forgotten it).

Sorry to go on at such length, but this is a very important subject, and I wish I'd found it before it had run to four pages! Llanfair, thanks for bringing it up, and please ignore the idiots who question your motives.

[IO540]

Haven't read the whole thread but here is my little bit.

Most instructors have problems fitting their approach to the student personality type.

The way one would teach a malleable 18 year old who (generally) accepts authority, at least from non-parents, is very different to the way you would teach a 50 year old business/professional person.

The former will accept whatever you tell him. But the latter is well used to dealing with all kinds of people professionally, and will not take any bu11sh*t, will spot a novice instructor from a mile away, and will give him a hard time (usually unintentionally).

I think many low-time instructors have problems with the latter type, and certainly this regularly comes out in the forums and in the instructor press (Flight Training News comes to mind) where, last time I read it, one well known instructor wrote an absolutely scathing piece denigrating business/prof types who turn up in a BMW with an attractive "blonde" woman companion :)

The unfortunate reality is that the BMW driver is more likely to have the funds and the time to hang in there to the end and eventually buy a plane and end up using his piece of paper for something useful.

Myself, I've had loads of instructors (due to changing schools, training in UK/USA, etc) and some were good and some were bad. I could spot the good ones now but no way could I have done so early on.

Interesting to note that the good ones were either retired ATPs or got airline jobs very fast. The bad ones are forever building hours.

My first instructor had 150 hours total time and even I wondered about that. He is still building hours 8 years later.

[llanfairpg]

10540

interesting comments but in my experience treating each person as an individual is a better approach, regardless of age. I taught a knighted chairman of industry who at the time was in his early 50s and there could not have been a nicer, gentler character but I can think of a few 18/19 year olds that caused many problems, especially in the 'know it all' department! (sadly I had to bury one)

Again with instructors we had very experienced ex RAF transport command instructor, total disinterest and an appalling instructor just ticking by till 65. When all of our instructors were checked by CFS for cadet training the only one out of 8 who they wouldnt approve was the one with the highest hours, a BA 1-11 skipper.

scathing piece denigrating business/prof types who turn up in a BMW with an attractive "blonde" woman companion :)Thats just jealousy, a common human trait(just look on here). The one thing you need to be able to deal with as an instructor is the amazing complexity of human factors!

Spotting good instructors as you say is difficult when you start out and this is used by many poor instructors to their advantage EG if you are nice to the student, give them a really easy time and allways tell them what they want to hear they will think you are a great instructor. You cannot determine who is a good instructor until you actually first fly with one!

[Applecore]

scathing piece denigrating business/prof types who turn up in a BMW with an attractive "blonde" woman companion :)

Was it written about me? :=

I turn up to the airfield in a BMW with an attractive blond wife. :)

So do I find a ginger haired wife or change the car? :bored: