They ARE hurting...

[rick.shaw]

Many instances of Crew Control ringing pilots on days off, Captains as RQ or as FO, flights being fully crewed just at the last minute. Crew Controllers openly admitting they are desperate, openly lying about the reasons for calling you in etc etc etc.

Keep the pressure up. One day they will have to cancel some flights. Questions will be asked. Heads will roll. Watch this space.....

DON"T work on your days off, DON"T be contactable. It has all been said before. Rest assured, the pressure is on. This company is keeping the flights going purely on YOUR good will. Ask yourself, what do YOU get in return in the long run? (Apart from maybe some good overtime purely because they are desperate...)

[ashcroft79]

I'm guessing by the post that they do have junior manning at cx.

[cpdude]

Just don't work a "G" day or you're mud!:=

[boxjockey]

I was phoned again yesterday, I can't remember how many times this has happened in the last few months. Didn't answer my phone, as always. Desperate message needing someone to go to London. No more calls. Looked at the crewing a bit later, and it was a cadet that had taken the callout. Not sure how often this happens. Maybe they feel more intimidated by the company, maybe they just want to help out. I have nothing against cadets, I do however have something against someone hurting the rest of the pilot group for their own interest. Please don't work on your Gdays, just enjoy the day off!!

box

[sgsslok]

If you were talking about a SO call-out on the Airbus fleet to LHR, I do believe that the ex-cadet who took the flight was on reserve.

[Numero Crunchero]

Until we are directed otherwise we are free to do whatever we want. And that direction would only apply to AOA members.

I find any witch hunting on PPrune a little pointless...lets try not to be divisive until we are directed to be....

[greencandreaming]

I total agree that you should NOT work on G days , absolutely 100 % .

I think answering the phones on G days ( O days completely different ) is a good idea .

I am sure the PW and NR get told by crew control we had a 100% success rate in crewing our aircraft today ," i only got in contact with one person and he agreed to work " ,

instead of we rang " 20 people and all declined to work "

That sends a completely different story to PW and NR , It tells them moral is shot and most of the crew don't give a **** anymore

you don't have to work on a G day , the Managers don't work on weekends , so they don't expect for you to work on your days off .

[Guru]

HKGPEK1,

I look forward to meeting you! I can't wait to go drinking with you while on a trip. Have you considered helping at the cadet recruitment events at the local universities?

[cyrex]

HKGPEK1,

Last i checked...Hong kong is still part of china and not malaysia or other asian country... thats y majority of cx cadets are chinese...:mad: idi0t

[CXtreme]

My flight depart in 36 hours, still no Capt on the roster. Think they are hurting.

[CXpletive]

Its been said before but .... If you feel that you REALLY must work on a G day look at the proffer board .... Invariably it works out at a lot more than 2.5% AND it helps out a colleague in a difficult situation, NOT a multinational corporation who can quite frankly afford to pay more.

[NewEssO]

may I ask, what is the proffer board?

[CXpletive]

Anthracx ....Flight Crew .... Crew Direct .....Mutual Exchange and Proffering .....Bulletin Board / Proffering ....

Arrow at the top of Category column sorts it into type and rank .... You can then work your G Days until your hearts content!

If you want to proffer a trip, bracket it as you would a swap. It is then posted as an available trip and any party within the same Category who has a G can pick it up. The Company deduct the credit hours from the proffering parties payroll and the other party is paid via payroll. FTLS 1 in 7 and 2 in 14 are the usual stumbling blocks as the rosters are becoming so tight.

Rates are I believe:

$250 per hour forSO
$500 FO
$1000 Capt.

AS long as it isn't a TPE, MNL or XMN it will pay you more than a G Day call out (2.5%) and be helping out a colleague.

In the last rostering "deal" The Company were quite keen to do away with the system as it was under utilised. Looking at it this morning though I think it may be catching on!

[Harbour Dweller]

Recent Fleet Forums are quoting up to 60 letters of thanks to crew who worked on G days in the last month. :ugh:

[Humber10]

and those 60 letters were on one fleet alone.... :ugh:

[Katanaman]

So are you guys telling me that my recent offer of F/O 747-400 in Europe is not worth going for then?

[AnQrKa]

Step 1: Refuse to fly freighter flights. If your CoS and Letter of Employment allows, refuse to fly the freighter. Advise the company by email that you do not want to “volunteer” to fly freighter flights. MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS NOW, WHILE THE FACA STILL EXISTS. WHEN IT IS RE-INSTATED AFTER THE AOA'S LEGAL CHALLENGE, YOU WILL ALREADY HAVE EXPRESSED YOUR WISH.

Step 2: Do not answer the phone. Don’t help crew control out by giving them a solution to the crewing crisis.

Step 3: Do not operate into discretion. A captain’s right not to operate into discretion cannot be questioned.

Step 4: Do not work on a G-day. Even if it is favourable to you.

Step 5: Do not check Crew Direct or call crew control, except on those occasions you are required to.

Step 6: Discourage new joiners from joining under the “C-scale” of CoS08.



Or you could just act like grownups and think for yourselves.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Why not pick up the phone on at G-day? All you have to say is; sorry CAN-NOT to busy enjoying life away from work! :ok: Be honest and tell them up their face. Who the hell wants to work on G-day anyways.. :sad:

[Numero Crunchero]

I am amazed at how many operations are being conducted that are on the edge of the AFTLS limits.

EG, a pilot operated to NA - about 5-6hrs into his hotel rest CC rang him and asked would he work in about 6 more hours to get a flight back to hkg. He asked if that was legal and CC assured him it was....it wasn't!

Simple rule - if you are on the end of an ULR, you need Physiological rest - this can be reduced to Normal rest. Normal rest is 12hrs or previous duty period, whichever is GREATER. So for a LA that would mean about 13:40. Once you have foregone Physiological rest for Normal rest you cannot exercise para 25(reduction of rest period) to get the "10 hrs in the room".

I have spoken to a few guys who were called out to do ULRs and then on return to base IMMEDIATELY go on Reserve for the remaining 2-3 days of the reserve pattern. This is legal(just), but the beginning of a slippery slide of reduced safety. Mind you, the mathematician still argues that the rule limiting time zone crossing to 12hrs is redundant as nowhere on earth is more than 12 time zones away from HKG!!! What's that Copernicus, HKG is the centre of the universe????

Be careful with the rules guys/gals...CC has a high turnover and may make errors. Ultimately it is your responsibility to be legal!

[404 Titan]

Numero Crunchero

Which is another good reason to let the call, when you legally can, slip through to the keeper, in this case message bank. This gives you the benefit of time to check all is legal.

[CXpletive]

It really is very simple ....
No.1 It may be that O day later in the week they are stealing off you.
No.2 They could be giving you a 9 am duty for that day of reserve you thought would start at 9pm
No.3 Your MNL turnaround reporting at 3pm has just become a Bali turnaround reporting at 8 am

No.4 Too many "cannots" will get you a nice little "uncooperative" flag on your Crew Control profile and a secret letter sent to your P File (secret because you will only see it when you ask to look at your file)

[boxjockey]

... Why not pick up the phone on a G day?

Because if you do, then you are simply helping them to push the problem to the back burner. If they were properly crewed, then they wouldn't need to be calling all of us every other day for months!! If you want to modify your schedule, use the request system, mutual exchange or proffering board. If you don't ever answer the phone, then you won't get that "secret letter", because you haven't been uncooperative!!

box

[routetuner]

Thought it was UNINTERRUPTED rest! How can you rest/sleep if some ******** from hong kong rings you in the middle of your rest and asks you to work in 6 hours?

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Was just looking at jumpseats in january...and 4 out of 5 possible flights have NO cockpit crew rostered!!!

Critically short of crew..I DO say!!!

[Hellenic aviator]

Yup !

Desperate times certainly are calling for desperate measures.

Hmm....could the "cannot" factor be turning around to bite CC in the arse ?
They deserve what they get !

Being flagged for not willing to help regardless of the reason is illegal as well as contrary to Vol 1's intimidation clause. Certainly JF being a solicitor by trade, would be able to assist in this matter ;)

[rick.shaw]

Well now. The realtime roster is out. Have a good look at all the longhauls out of HKG. There are numerous crew missing from the crewlists. See for yourselves. Also, don't forget to peruse the inbound flights. When you are asked to operate back 3-man to HKG and the reason is 'last minute sickness', feel free to ask who the sickee is and check their roster to see if they were ever rostered for that flight. You see, 'last minute sickness' is the easiest excuse to use. It is hard to track down and makes us feel guilty that one of our own is lettting the side down by calling in sick. That means we almost feel obligated to fill the gap. Remember good people, this company spends millions to use psycho babble crap against ourselves

[Triangle Man]

Gents, this is great stuff, and a post detailing all this detail of what we "do not have to do for CX" should be kept current and updated so that we don't have to keep reinventing the wheel and those interested can be easily educated. Let's call it something other than "contract compliance" for the moment - perhaps something like "an informal guide to your rights at CX".

We constantly fight with Crew Control to upkeep our rights, and often lose out because we are inexperienced and ignorant with respect to the rostering legalities under which we operate. This knowledge should be something that espoused by the AOA and promoted to all new joiners, but the chances of an AOA-led initiative seem remote at best.

Is it feasible to amalgamate comments and explanations and maintain such a post as a "sticky"? - surely someone with considerable experience would be the best bet...anybody? NC?

TM

[CMOTDibler]

Hopefully people are taking notice of this post and it will encourage those not engaged in the "phoney war" (to coin a 1939 phrase) to join the ranks. The GC aren't pushing it (for some unfathomable reason) so it is up to us.

My last 2 long haul flights had F/O's who had responded to CC and were working on G days. :ugh: Every day it seems they are relying on the goodwill of others to achieve thier requirements. A little more pressure and they are done!

So lets keep pushing the message at every opportunity to get people on board. Now is the time, delaying only helps the company achieve manning levels and await a downturn in the market.

Before you accept that G day payment ("I need the money....) think that if we could bring pressure to bear you could get that extra money plus more every month through a long overdue realistic base pay rate increase.

Please DO NOT WORK on G days! Do not acknowledge Crew Direct. Enjoy your days off with family or Friends.

[Harbour Dweller]

My last 2 long haul flights had F/O's who had responded to CC and were working on G days.

And their reason for doing so was.... :confused:

[CMOTDibler]

Money. Hence my point about short term pain for long term gain. I think they saw the logic in my arguement but who knows if they were swayed. If only we were all half Vulcan....

[Numero Crunchero]

Working or not on time off is up to the individual. Some have decided that they would prefer not to. Chastising those that do does nothing useful other than further divide a fractious membership. Until we are directed NOT to work on G days it should be completely up to the individual. As I mentioned before, there was an argument amongst the GC many years ago that we should have a 'helpful' campaign for a few months followed by Contract Compliance.

Action without direction is wasted!

[Harbour Dweller]

Numero,

Action without direction is wasted!We all know what action is required.

It seems that getting the AOA to give the direction is what is needed. One can only write so many emails of suggestion to the AOA.

As an ex GC member what do you suggest is needed to make the ST & the GC act?

[Katanaman]

Guys/Girls,
I wondered if the first of the unified rosters has been produced?


Does anyone have any information on say the roster for LHR.

However, I am trying to find out how many times I might fly the freighter pattern since I have two children under five and some stability and pattern to my roster is essential.

Cathay state that I would fly the pax fleet mainly, with occasional freighter flights.

I wondered what your thoughts are?

I have not yet resigned from my current employer, which offers me a reasonable future in short/medium haul out of the UK.

Difficult decision.

I'd really appreciate any constructive feedback / information.

Thanks very much.

Katanaman

[jtr]

The current rostering practices are mined with "other than in abnormal circumstances" "will not normally be" etc which hold absolutely no water.

As an e.g. I had a change to my roster while at the outport which contravened a "other than in abnormal circumstances" paragraph. I asked what the abnormal circumstances were that lead to the change, to which they replied "we are short of crew". My answer "but you are always short of crew, that is not an abnormal circumstance" They came back with, "it is legal, are you refusing the duty?"

Flight Tim Limitations is a misnomer, in CX they are treated as Flight Time Goals, and as such unless it is in black and white, AND not open to interpretation, expect it to be abused by the company.

[Frogman1484]

Katanama, the fact that over 40 fo's have resigned from the Freighter fleet during the last 8-10 months. That should give you an idea on how crap the conditions are on the freighter pool and on how short they are on the it as well.

If your family is as important to you as you mention, you also need to think that once you are senior enough to become a captain, there will most probably be no Captain slots for you at home( The bases are really tight for Captains already), so you might have to move your whole family to HKG with its super polluted air.

[Katanaman]

Thanks guys for the information. I'm very reluctant to leave present employer (which is fine, but like all has its little problems) to go to a place with so much uncertainty.

The one thing I have is a very stable roster and I've realised this is not the norm in the industry.

The experience at Cathay city (hard, like joining the army) was something I'm glad I have done, but being a legacy airline, Cathay cannot just hope we jump without fair and non-transparent terms and conditions. Not knowing what a unified roster looks like and having a clear understanding of the freighter commitment makes the decision impossible.

I find this really disappointing and very frustrating.

Yes, the family is important, because if I cannot predict my life style and it turns out to be a nightmare, there will be no family to return home to, so this has to be top of the list when making a move to another company.

Command is not everything, I'd rather put lift style first, but I hear you loud and clear on the small number of CPT positions with Cathay in the UK.

Thanks again everyone out there who has kindly replied.

Merry Christmas

[Harbour Dweller]

Katanaman (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=11923)

Yes, the family is important, because if I cannot predict my life style and it turns out to be a nightmare, there will be no family to return home to, so this has to be top of the list when making a move to another company.Very true.

As Dan says

The whole reason for the Unified FO is so that they can crew the freighter, so yes, you will be flying the freighter A LOT.

I wouldn't put much trust in what CX tells you. In fact, assume the oppositeDoes this sound like you will maintain your family lifestyle?

If this is what you want to protect then you are better to stay where you are.

[rick.shaw]

A phrase we hear every time we question a duty. These guys know that phrase immediately puts us on the defensive. These psychological games are used all the time by the Cathay Group. Something the AOA unfortunately refuses to deal with effectively. Not entirely their fault, but at the same time very avoidable in some recent negotiations(RP04 being a classic). The wording on so many of our rules is so ambiguous that it's simply not worth saying 'no' unless you are 200% sure of your position. Even then, the AOA reccommends that you say 'yes' and seek redress later. Unfortunately, the damage is already done(to our roster stability) and CX once again escapes inconveniencing itself. The hassle of following it up is also a factor. Yet another reason not to answer your phone or acknowledge Crew Direct.

[act700]

Reading a lot of the post on here, I get the feeling that your AoA is basically useless.
Why would anyone in their right mind join/pay for something useless??
Just because it's cool, because everyone else is doing it?
I'm not opposed to joining a union, but I will not pay for anything useless.
Maybe it's time to form a useful union.
I recommed a visit to a cattle farm in Wyoming to find a good leader. I hear the bulls have enormous balls!

[777300ER]

Reading a lot of the post on here, I get the feeling that your AoA is basically useless.
Why would anyone in their right mind join/pay for something useless??
Just because it's cool, because everyone else is doing it?
I'm not opposed to joining a union, but I will not pay for anything useless.
Maybe it's time to form a useful union.
I recommed a visit to a cattle farm in Wyoming to find a good leader. I hear the bulls have enormous balls!

lol.. I am starting to wonder myself what the point of being a member is.

[rick.shaw]

Recycled, but it appears there is still alot of begging from crew control for people to work on G days etc. Again, they are openly admitting the chronic shortage of crew. There are still many incomplete crew lists out there. I reiterate. DON"T work on G days or be contactable when not required to be so. Challenge their duty changes if you think they are bull****ting you about the legality. As someone mentioned before, get THEM to explain in detail why it is legal. It is still YOUR licence that is on the line if it isn't legal. There are always going to be the selfish few, but they will become known. My no-jumpseat list just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Think about it the next time you get declined for a jumpseat or relegated to J3/4 or your request is left to the last minute to accept/decline. Makes it hard to plan huh???

[BlunderBus]

the magic words 'roster disruption' .. not yours ..but the janitor's or someone displaced 3 weeks ago allows the company to forget about giving you a local sleep pattern (10pm-8am)your own time.
Mr H*****d's remarks..
"the regulator and i believe physiological rest has not effect on accumulative ULH fatigue!

[BlunderBus]

why isn't overtime voluntary?
why does the company expect captains to pay each other $1000/hr to operate a flight but they pay 2.5% of 84 hours pay for the whole day (hkg-lax)?
who in their right mind agreed to or even discussed changing the AFTLS?
why do people still operate outside maximum legal rostered duty hours,work on G days or volunteer to work for free?
why does CX feel 'roster disruption' is a blanket excuse to schedule flights outside min rest or max duty.(unacclimatised crew doing nyc-yyz-anc all night)?
appeasement never worked .. all you do is die on your knees.
Agreeing to work for sh*t when you're 20 suddenly doesn't look so good when you're 40 does it?

[BenCLR8]

A 5 day pattern DXB flight left/is leaving HKG today with an STC as RP! I know it is common practise these days for Captains to be the RQ but this was a last minute change as nobody else was available. A search of the STC's roster indicates that he had training and sim checking duties almost everyday of the 5 including today!

Blokes must be saying no to the G day callouts and this must be hurting the operation. The flight has been crewed but at what cost to training schedules, etc?

[MAX]

My phone rang this morning...2747....and it just kept on ringing.

MAX:cool:

[Mr. Bloggs]

I am surprised the operating Captain was not called before the duty and asked to go into discretion.:= Seems to be the “IN” thing nowadays.:*

[NewEssO]

People on Reserve don't have a choice right, only if they run out of people on reserve would they call the G day guys, isn't this true?

[Mr. Bloggs]

You are correct if you are on reserve and you are not obligated to answer your phone before you reserve starts. Some days you will receive many calls before reserve.:ok:

CC will call pilots to work on a G day even when someone is on reserve. This way they can maintain the reserve coverage when it starts to get low.:hmm:

They have been known to change rosters to another flight (with lower hours) citing roster disruption and using G day call outs to do the high hour pairing, thereby reducing someone’s EFP.:{

Yes, I know they are not allowed to do this, but it’s roster disruption.:=

[The Wraith]

Returned from LA in the evening recently, next day 11am message left asking me to do a 1400 SFO.
Today (G day) been called 3 times...couldn't remember which button to press to answer the phone...
But we do have the right crewing levels because Nick said so in Crews Propaganda, so it must be true.
:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:.....oh, wait....:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[SMOC]

This is the best moral boosting I've had in ages, bring it on :ok:


DON'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE, DON'T CHECK CREW DIRECT!

[Hiro Nakimura]

How many cat B FOs were there before he took over
How many command failures
How much overtime

I know it irks you to have to control people smarter than you who also get more respect, thats why you should stick with your original study choice.
Animals might believe some of the **** you have been shoveling, might!?

[Nullaman]

Heard there has been a slight crewing embarrassment at LHR. Not sure of details except overnight parking charges probably due.:}

[Frogman1484]

Can't wait for the spin on that one...maybe another lost opportunity!!!

[slapfaan]

I sincerely hope this was NOT done on your G-days??:=

[Hiro Nakimura]

Advice for new joiners. You will always know if the DFO is lieing. His lips will be moving or he will be typing. He asserts we don't have a crew shortage, ergo, we do!

[555orange]

I don't work at Cathay..but Im wondering whats a Cat B FO? And do you guys think Cathay's interview process is effective? It seems a bit overkill to me.

[555orange]

It seems Cathay isn't the classy joint I thought it was...after talking with a colleage of mine about the salaries there now...I get more now.

I think Ill take a secret LOA and try to come over to take a free type rating. :)

Also, talking with another American Colleague on MSN now who was hired there last year...he just went to get the type and wait for Fedex or UPS to hire him. Smart...smart...

Who wants to live in Hong Kong anyway....what a **** place to live. Heard someone describe it perfectly lately...."like being banished on permanent vacation" ... but dont forget to wear your respirator....lol.

[boxjockey]

555Orange,

Why would you be concerned with our interview process, and taking a secret LOA to get a type, if your current gig is so good? An honest question, I'm just curious. Also, I would never qualify living in HK as a vacation!!!

box

[Harbour Dweller]

G day = Guaranteed day off

[Humber10]

Back to the top...
I have work today, but not a full crew is on the roster still, nor for the return trip. Checked the rest of the roster and there are similar gaps. Apparently we are not short on crew though.....:ugh:

[Harbour Dweller]

CX Captains operating as Relief Commander.

(Quoted from a recent discussion on the upper floors).

Since the beginning of the 2008 CC has rostered over 160 ULH sectors utilizing a second Captain for relief duties.

After the roster is printed the actual number of sectors this has occurred on is much higher due to disruptions taking place.

With most crew choosing not to work on G days CC have no option but to use whatever means possible to crew flights at the moment.

Many of these Captains are into overtime also.

[buggaluggs]

Did a safety pilot trip the other day, on which the STC was saying he got called out ( off res ) to operate as relief to JNB. The interesting thing was the operating captain was ALSO an STC! So.... no fire fighting going on there then! How many ' missed opportunities ' does that count as! :ugh:


'

[Hockeystick]

I did 1 RQ sector this month from reserve, two rostered for next month. A great way for a Captain to make overtime.

[Sir Donald]

I was gonna say something but can't be bothered..........................really

[Fenwicksgirl]

Both NYC flights today with 2 Captains.

[Max Reheat]

Hey buggaluggs... STCs don't do reserve!!!!

[badairsucker]

They would be hurting a lot more if people would stop working on their G days. I was phoned the other day on my G and asked to operate to JFK, of course I said cannot, then someone on 3 Gs did it....Well done that man.


All for one.............:=

[Buttie Box]

...and no cn as yet on 261 3 March, hmmm...

[Frogman1484]

Last night the Sydney flight went with a STC on the right seat...another missed opportunity to train I guess!!!

[jtr]

Last night the Sydney flight went with a STC on the right seat...another missed opportunity to train I guess!!!

One way to get to the Margi Gras I guess.

[moosp]

Oooooh jtr you can be such a bitch when you are roused...

And BTW Max afterburner, yes they do.

[Max Reheat]

Moosp.
Not on the Airbus!
Haven't had any for 2 years.

[BenCLR8]

I thought this was a rather interesting "lost opportunity" - JFO on the Airbus given 5 weeks of O and G days after completing his 528 and IR sims as there are no trainers for his line training. He was rostered for base training and about 20 sectors in March which were all cancelled!

If you don't believe me his surname starts with a D followed by two o's - check it out on Crew Direct!

Must be because the STC's are flying around as F/O's to fill the gaps. Oops!

If we are not short then I guess we have all the crew in the wrong categories!

[555orange]

Hey Box. sorry for the delay...(from response on 11th) dont cruise the rumour mill all that often .. too busy! Not really interested much to tell you the truth.. just commenting in my spare time on whats going on in the industry in general and to my great friends and colleagues.... general interest is all..with a bit of jock.. My situation is not perfect... I have in the past considered checking out Cathay. Didnt, so cant really say if im missing out, but it sounds like nothings perfect and we are all fighting a common battle of trying to hold on to the respect and some control in our profession. I really get a kick out of your managements posts though!