OFT vs CAA

[leennijstad]

OFT vs CAA

Dear readers,

I'm planning to get my JAA PPL Licence in the upcoming year, and following some good advices on this forum, I prefer OFT.

On their own website they are advertising with JAA courses, but when I look at the official CAA website, I can only find the following 6 approved flightschools:

AAA
NAC
OBA
EFT
Western air
EPTA (kissimmee)

Source: (lower part of page 5)
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Doc%2031v81%20-%20Approved%20Training%20Organisations.pdf

Has anyone an explanation for this fact?

Regards,
Leendert

[BillieBob]

The explanation is simple - OFT does not hold any approval, in its own right, to conduct JAA courses. It is clear from Standards Document 31 that it is Cabair, trading as EPTA, which sub-contracts OFT to provide aircraft, instructors and other facilities to conduct approved flight and theoretical knowledge training. Anyone who is training at Kissimmee is, therefore, actually a student of Cabair, not OFT.

It is difficult to see this advertising as anything other than a deliberate ploy to confuse potential customers as part of a cynical attempt to extract money under false pretences - what any reasonable person might call theft!

Misleading advertising such as this is not unknown, of course. Notably, Delta Connection Academy claimed, falsely, to be JAA approved when it was, in fact, no more than a sub-contractor, providing resources to Atlantic Flight Training. As a result of this deception, a number of students were conned out of out of a great deal of money. It would seem sensible to avoid dealing with any organisation that indulged in such deceitful practices.

[Spitoon]

There is a general warning in this example. When you see a CAA logo or the phrase 'CAA approved', you need to be clear what the approval is for. The legislation that applies to aviation requires the CAA to approve many things - just because an organisation has an approval it doesn't mean that it's approved to do what you are going to use it for. Same applies to JAA and EASA.

If you really want to understand what the approval means you then have to look at the enabling legislation to see what the approval was intended to cover.

Or, if you can't be bothered with all that, I've always found personal recommendations to be very valuable (far more so that anyone's logo)!

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm not sure it's 'deceitful' - they advertise JAA courses - which is what they provide. How they achieve this is not of great interest, is it?

Sam.

[englishal]

To be honest they don't need CAA approval.

The way some of these companies work is train a student for an FAA PPL. They have on site a CAA approved examiner, who, when the candidate has passed the FAA PPL (examined by FAA DPE) carries out a "conversion to JAA" check flight. When they pass this they have a JAA PPL. CAA approval is not required for conversions, and they normally get around the ground exams by having the candidate do them in the UK at an APPROVED school or place before they arrive.

I can see nothing wrong with it myself, CAA approval costs thousands for essentially a jolly for an inspector and the candidate ends up with both FAA and JAA standalone tickets.

[Keygrip]

Englishal. There's a list of six "approved" schools in message one, and a comment from yourself in message five saying;
The way some of these companies work is train a student for an FAA PPL.
I challenge you to tell us exactly which one(s) of these schools train for FAA and then do a conversion test....or retract the statement.

AFAIK, the conversion skill test "does" have to be carried out at an approved organisation - although I would be very happy to be corrected or proven wrong on that one.

[englishal]

I challenge you to tell us exactly which one(s) of these schools train for FAA and then do a conversion test....or retract the statement.
None that I am aware of....I meant some US schools. I am making the point that SOME schools in the USA bypass CAA approval by the methods I suggest.

The skills test for a "conversion" does not have to be done at an approved place, nor the IMCr test either, which is how SOME places can do JAA / CAA ratings with no approval.

One thing you have to be careful of though is being ripped off by JAA schools in the USA. I have known SOME schools to charge UK or nearly UK prices for essentially FAA training, followed by a JAA examiner's flight test. I even went to one CAA approved place, and they charged one rate for an FAA person renting the aeroplane and one for the JAA person !!!!! The same plane, the same reg etc.....They use it to milk unsuspecting Europeans of their hard earned cash.

My advice would be to forget JAA and do an FAA PPL which is perfectly usable in the UK without formality - no conversion required.....

[Keygrip]

English, sorry if I sounded heavy handed there (which I did when I read it again).

Fully agree, there are schools that do teach FAA then arrange a conversion test - but NOT the ones in the list (at the moment).

I also fully agree with you about doing the FAA ticket instead of the JAA...EASA one.

With regard to pricing, to be fair to the schools, they set their stalls based on the costs of operating the aircraft in the USA. Then they apply for JAA approval and, having to pay for the inspection and approval, suddenly get hit with potentially thousands of dollars and need to get it back every year. They quite rightly (?) decide that FAA students should not have to pay extra (as they will go elsewhere for cheaper) so the costs have to be borne by the JAA department.

Some places do, however, milk the situation, too. But that is just your average thief at work. You'll never get around your average con-man, especially in this industry.

I also owe you an apology, I just checked your statement that a JAA skill test can be taken at any establishment....you're right, it can. I was swinging the barrels around to shoot you down in flames.

Now, the next question is "What will EASA do to it all?".

[englishal]

I also owe you an apology, I just checked your statement that a JAA skill test can be taken at any establishment....you're right, it can. I was swinging the barrels around to shoot you down in flames.
None nescessary ;):ok: