should we have changed frequency?

[ACARS]

I had a flying lesson the other day. We left a particular aerodrome airspace and was asked to change frequency. Normally on the next frequency we would recieve flight information service. We would be operating under Class C airspace.
The instructor said he wouldn't bother because it annoys the controllers and they have better things to be doing. Also the display on the radio made it difficult to switch.
Okay, there should be no non GA aircraft below Class C, but should we have switched frequency?

[tigerbatics]

No,you had no need to do so. Too many people spend too much time using the radio. Flight Information Service is useless anyway.

[BackPacker]

Agreed. If you're going to fly VFR in Class G and you don't need a RIS, FIS or alerting service, why bother. No radio contact is required with anyone in Class G, after all.

In fact, it might be more useful to monitor the previous frequency, which was most likely the A/G, AFIS or Tower frequency of the field you departed from, and would be returning to in a short while, not? Monitoring this frequency gives you an update on what's happening there and especially if you stay close to the field, will give you far more useful information about traffic in the area than switching to an info frequency.

On busy days, there's way too many pilots who ask for a "Flight Information Service" and then do not ask for any information whatsoever, until they sign off. What good does that do other than congesting the frequency?

Having said that, you were having a lesson. I don't know how proficient you are on the radio, but at some point in time you've got to learn how to use a FIS. And not just contacting them with the whole "pass your message" enchilada, but also learn how to use them to the fullest before you sign off. Ask them for a weather update of your destination, let them open or close a flightplan for you, that sort of thing.

[jamestkirk]

Whoever above said that a FIS is useless needs to do a bit more research on the subject.

Not only, as previously stated can they get weather for you. They can also give you servicibility of nav aids etc. and keep an eye on you in case of problems.

I won't list the responsibilities of an FISO but have a flick through CAP410 to get an idea of what can be offered.

If you are transiting near an ATZ of a busy GA/CAT aerodrome on a busy day then it would be a good idea to tell them you are there. And 99.9% of the time you will get a FIS anyway. This can be (and has been for me) true of airfields from Goodwood to Gatwick.

If you are crossing seas, channels etc, it may be a good idea to stay in contact with someone. On many an occassion, I have been asked by London Info to relay a message for someone who is at a low alt or out of range for some reason.

Just look at another post on this forum called G-ATKI thank you.

Don't start second guessing the intentions of ATC'ers. They know thier job, we don't

[znww5]

There's a difference between what is required and what is prudent. Personally, I can't see the sense in failing making use of any assistance which improves your SA and that includes FIS.

[Crash one]

If the FIS controller knows you are there & has your details, fine, you don't have to ask for anything, though you may be lucky enough to hear "G-xxx be advised you have four Mig 29s aproaching your area at your level from the south east" which may be of interest to you!! So what's wrong with just anouncing your existence & listening out?

[maxdrypower]

I find it odd that you are paying handsomely for flying instruction and following this you ask a question on a forum which by its very nature is going to give you a hundred different answers , the majority of which will not be incorrect . Do you not trust your instructor ?
It is amazing how many people come on here and ask for advice on , flaring, touch and goes , naviagation , the list goes on , are instructors considered to be unapproachable or something these days . For example , you sit next to an instructor for an hour doing circuits and dont quite get it (exactly like everyone else first time ) then come on here and ask how to do them as if its going to help . Why dont people speak to their instructors ???
Weird:}:}:}

[Crash one]

Sorry, Mig 29s just fell into my head, Read "A seriously dangerous situation is imminently possible" & anyway he didn't say where the flight was, Mig 29s may be prolific there.

Edit: So what if the FISO asks for more information? If he has the time to ask then shirley he can't be too busy & overworked?

[soay]

In asking for a FIS, you will be informing everyone else listening on that frequency of your whereabouts. I like having other people know where I am, even if I've still got to look out for those who maintain radio silence, or are on other frequencies.

[tmmorris]

Even a RIS wouldn't help much with the Migs. I remember as I was approaching the Marham overhead one fine day a call of 'G-**** traffic six o'clock 5 miles two Tornados, 1000ft above' and by the time I'd said 'Roger, looking, G-****' they were a mile in front, descending directly in front of me! No real conflict but made me wake up...

Tim

[Crash one]

Well at least you would have known what hit you.

[ACARS]

Quote - I find it odd that you are paying handsomely for flying instruction and following this you ask a question on a forum which by its very nature is going to give you a hundred different answers

I am very low hour PPL. I did challenge the instructor - at least I had the courage to do that. Does that not show good airmanship? I got an answer which I can't repeat on here. :mad: I agree with you completely about challenging a decision made. I am just asking for people's thoughts.

[Contacttower]

Why dont people speak to their instructors ???



They probably do...but that doesn't mean to say they can't ask the same questions here. If my instructor had done something which I wondered about...after asking him about it the second place I would ask would be here. It's good to have lots of viewpoints.

[Whirlybird]

I did challenge the instructor - at least I had the courage to do that.

Why "challenge"? Your instructor isn't God, and his opinion is merely that. Why "courage"? Are instructors so unapproachable that it's really hard to ask them questions?

As an instructor, I hope my students don't feel like that. I'm quite happy if something I do makes them want to discuss radio usage. I hope I'm not doing anything which makes them feel as though questioning my decision is any kind of big deal.

I'm not trying to pick on you for your choice of words; I just find it a bit worry ng if the situation is really like that. :(

[Crash one]

I live under the regular flight path of low level Tornados, C130s & recently Eurofighters & am well aware that when one of them rips the tiles off the house, his mate will not be far behind.
I am a low hrs NPPL & often spend some time in this area usually around 1500ft with my daughter in the RH seat. We recently came over here & I elected to remain on the departure airfield freq, partly cos we were not going to be long, partly cos it is also on the inbound track for most of the traffic to "home base" & partly cos I may have got lower than I should & didn't want a "telling off":=.
I felt as though I was over enemy territory, constantly looking to the North where they always come from. This was the first time I have not changed freq to either FIS or the Millitary & I think it will be the last. I cannot understand the reasoning behind "You don't have to speak to any one outside CAS". This may be true. It could also be "famous last words". Prudence is a better bet in my opinion.

Edit: I don't know where Shirley works but she Shirley has helped me once or twice.
Please don't any-one say "keep a good lookout" I do, but those guys are designed not to be seen.

[DFC]

We left a particular aerodrome airspace and was asked to change frequency. Normally on the next frequency we would recieve flight information service. We would be operating under Class C airspace.
The instructor said he wouldn't bother because it annoys the controllers and they have better things to be doing. Also the display on the radio made it difficult to switch.
Okay, there should be no non GA aircraft below Class C, but should we have switched frequency?

I am very low hour PPL

OK I will try to cover the points in order;

1. Were to told to "contact" or to "freecall". If the first then you were obliged to do as instructed unless you were in class E, F or G VFR and told the controller (it has to be a controller to issue instructions) that you were not doing so. It is very important in this case to let ATC know you are not going to call the next frequency because in this case the first controller has passed your details and the second one is expecting your call. One of the triggers for overdue action is a pilot failing to make a radio call when it was expected.

If on the other hand you were told to "freecall" then your details were not passed but it is good practice to let the controller know that you are changing to a different frequency or remaining on the current one or whatever.

If it was not ATC and an Air/Ground or AFISO then they can not issue instructions.

2. Class C airspace?

3. The radio was U/S if you can not set the frequencies. Some King radios have a system whereby if you hold a button in while turning on the radio it will start up on 120.000 and you can then count the clicks to set the frequency but this is an emergency case.

3. In Class G you can have all sorts of traffic....everything from paragliders to A380s....that is the nature of Class G even if it is below a CTA

Regards,

DFC

[llanfairpg]

Yes i remember a pilot who thought FIS was a waste of time that is until he flew to Staverton which was closed for motorcycle racing. Anyone who says FIS isnt of any value has limited experience. In the event of a problem which needs a diversion FIS can be extremly helpful. They can give advanced notice of clerances, arrange handovers, take coasting out and in estimates for over water flights plus get SAR to you if you get a problem.

If you have an engine failure and go down somewhere its nice to know that you have at least given some information to someone. Bit silly having £10,000 worth of radio which wasnt used and find yourself hanging out of a tree waiting for a passing farmer

[BackPacker]

Anyone who says FIS isnt of any value has limited experience.

You're not doubting the experience level of the OPs instructor, are you?

A FIS can be very useful, especially if you do long flights over potentially harmful terrain, need information on conditions ahead, yadiyadiya.

But the way I read the original post is that somebody was having a flight lesson, most likely returning to the departure airfield in about half an hours to an hours time, doing some general flying about in the local area while doing the exercises that each of us have to go through. Obviously one of the options is to change frequencies and ask for a FIS, or remain on the tower/AFIS/AG frequency and monitor what's happening there.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're staying close, it makes far more sense to remain on the local frequency and monitor what happens there. You'll hear all inbound and outbound traffic, and learn of any changes happening to your specific destination, up to runway changes, QNH changes and everything. Without even asking. Most likely, since it's both your departure and destination airfield, ATC (if any) will keep your details on file anyway, and will know the general area where you'll be flying, so even if there's an emergency, they are probably as good, or even better, than a FIS from a unit 100 miles away.

Frequency change approved means just that: you are allowed to change frequency, but you don't have to. Depending on your intentions, you might want to stay on frequency, shut down the radio altogether, or switch to another frequency. Whatever you do depends on a number of factors, one being how far and how long you're going to be away, the other what level of service you can realistically expect from the unit that would be providing your FIS, at the place and altitude you're going to be operating.

[fisbangwollop]

As an operational AFISO in Scotland 119.875 I welcome all customers with open arms. the way I look at it is the more aircraft out there that choose to use the service, the better service I therefore can give ( traffic info etc) Another reason for using the service is flight safety, most of my customers operate at lowish levels, with single engine and over at times hostile terrain, when that engine coughs, splutters and starts to wind down, this is not the time to be looking for a frequecy to call for help on!! at least if you are already on the frequency and using the service a quick "Pan Pan" or "Mayday" is all it will take to get the cavalery into gear!! Another thing are TDA's (temporary danger area's), these are promulgated at short notice to protect search and rescue operations, despite checking your NOTAM's prior to departure a TDA may become active after that time and therefore the AFISO will be in a position to update you!. For those of you that already use the Scottish service I hope you agree that a friendly service is always provided,for those of you that have not bothered come onto 119.875 one day and give it a go.....and oh by the way...my pet hate is those that only select and listen, why???if you go to the bother to select the frequency please come and say hello!!!....good luck and safe flying to you all.

[LH2]

Just to add to what's been said previously.

If the service is there, use it--it may save your arse one day.

As for the case you relate, if the instructor was PIC then it's his decision. Conversely, if you're flying P1 or P1US then you're responsible and you have the authority to do as you see fit.

Lastly, if you're not comfortable with something, bring it up during the debrief, maybe follow up with the CFI if still not satisfied. Having said that, keep in mind your instructor will generally know better and try not to make an anal cavity of yourself unnecessarily. :p

[Contacttower]

try not to make an anal cavity of yourself unnecessarily.


Plently of those on here...:E

[eltonioni]

It would seem sensible for a student to get in as much radio practice as possible.

[Crash one]

Fisbangwollop
Thank you for that, I've often wondered whether us "little uns" are a work load you could do without. As I said earlier, the only time I didn't call I felt rather vulnerable. If you hear the occasional "Over" please ignore it, I can't help it.

[FullyFlapped]

ACARS,

I'd be very surprised if you were flying under "Class C" at any point : class G seems more likely, perhaps you've misheard your instructor. Get him to go over the various airspace classes and rules with you as part of your next brief.

FF :ok: