PPL @ British Airways Flying Club High Wycombe Or Stapleford Essex?

[rogerthat777]

Which of these schools offer better quality training and facilities/aircraft and of course...price?!

Anyone trained for their PPL with these guys?

Also, are any of the PA28s equiped with GPS at either school?


Ta in advance

[smarthawke]

Vote number 1 for the British Airways Flying Club at Wycombe.

Instructors aren't there for hour building purposes, they're career instructors with shed loads of experience.

Prices may not be the cheapest but wherever you go check for hidden costs, ie landing fees, fuel surcharges, ground briefings etc etc. BAFC are part of Airways Aero Associations Ltd who operate the airfield - the prices you get are what you pay. Check how the hours are charged for - chock to chock, airborne time, engine running time....

The aircraft (7 PA28-161 Warriors, 1 Chipmunk and 1 Piper PA28-236 Dakota) are amongst the best you'll find on any flying club school fleet and are maintained regardless of cost, safety is paramount. They are maintained by their own engineers on site who also look after 25 private aircraft. The big fleet of Warriors means you would be very unlikely to lose a lesson in the rare occassion there's a problem with the aircraft.

Visit all the places you are thinking of learning and even have a trial lesson at each. Make sure you have a log book and record the flights as trial lessons count towards your 45 hour minimum for the PPL(A). Make sure you ask to be shown around the facilities including the aircraft and the engineering set-up (we always welcome prospective customers and customers alike here).

The PA28 Dakota has a Garmin 430 GPS fitted but as it isn't part of the training syllabus, you'll rarely find training aircraft fitted with them, or private hire ones either for that matter. Most people have their own handhelds that they can take home for route planning etc.

PM me if you have any other questions.

[trafficcontrol]

Wycombe air centre - Booker. Same as BAFC except in cessna's, and include staff with a smile and a sense of humour.

:}

Lets now watch sparks fly!

Just my personal experience

TC

[wsmempson]

My personal experience was training at BAFC, Booker. I thought the instructors to be v. good and highly professional. Dick Thurbin taught me and a high proportion of the people that I meet flying today.

The a/c are scrupulously maintained but, other than the Dakota, won't have GPS - principally because this is Verbotten within the PPL syllabus.

With three active circuits (fixed wind, gliders and helicopters - all in different directions) and a full tower, if you can fly and do the r/t here, you'll fit in anywhere.

Enjoy!

[A and C]

All three clubs of the clubs that have been named on this thread so far have good reputations and are not likely to pull the hidden charges stunts that one of the larger opperations in the London area is so adept at doing.

I was at Stapleford today and the Cessna fleet is looking a bit tired, but they do have some very new kit for the advanced training.

The W.A.C. Cessna's are looking better than those at Stapleford and they also have some very nice "glass" equiped Cessna's for the more advanced training.

The BAFC fleet is one of the best maintaned club fleet in the UK and I know of only one other club fleet that gets the same sort of attention to detail when it comes to maintenance.

As said above the BAFC has no hours builders instructing for them, you are more likely to get an instructor who has retired from the airline with thousands of hours behind him.

I would be happy to recomend both the W.A.C or S.F.C. to you as they will both do a good job at a reasonable price however in all areas I think that BAFC is ahead of the game and would be my number one recomendation.

[Pitts2112]

something else to consider, though it might seem trivial at the moment, is which one is closer to home? The two places you mention are counties apart and if the time to get there is significant, it could become an extra hurdle in making it easy to get your license.

Then consider where you might like to fly from once you have your license - which one has the better club and social scene, for instance.

Either way, have a great time and enjoy the experience. You'll never regret doing it!

Pitts2112

[student88]

It amazes me how much money Stapleford make yet no investment in their PPL fleet? One of Staplefords PA28's has GPS - G-PJCC I believe.

S88

[LateFinals]

I found Stapleford frankly unfriendly and a feeling that I was just another paying number. No special welcome, no one felt able to phone if the weather was so bad the lesson was cancelled and I turned up having wasted time travelling. I always felt I was in the way. I decided not to continue my training there.

Others may I'm sure disagree and Stapleford does have a good reputation, but that's how I found it.

LF

[Katherine Alexandra]

trafficcontrol, you're still not funny! :E

On a more serious note, I'd wholeheartedly recommend BAFC. I think there are 3 or 4 part-time instructors there that I've never flown with, but I have flown with the other 7 or so and I've not a complaint to make about a single one of them. All very professional, welcoming instructors who are, as previously mentioned, career instructors.

I've never, in over 2 years of flying with them, had a lesson cancelled due to a u/s aircraft as Jerry and the rest of the engineering lot keep them in brilliant condition. It's always nice to fly an aircraft with the Chatham Livery (i.e. BA tail!) and, if you fly into one of the larger airports, such as Bournemouth, the resident spotters do enjoy taking your photo! In all seriousness, BAFC offers a similar rate of hire to WAC across the apron, but without WAC's hidden charges (remember, WAC was taken over by Cabair...). I've also yet to see a BAFC plane crash myself...unlike the many WAC ones I've been witness to :}

Always worth visiting BAFC and having a look for yourself, considering how many people here are recommending it.

[Hampshire Hog]

Hi All,

I did my PPL and IMC at BAFC and have flown with a number of their instructors. I couldn't criticise any of them. The CFI did my IMC exam and despite something of a fearsome reputation was actually very calm, clear and helpful throughout. Dick did my PPL exam - again very calm - as S. Empson has said.

The fleet of a/c is maintained very well, as Katherine says - Jerry and his team are the most conscientious engineers I have found. If there is a fault, it the a/c is grounded or the fault deferred based on a decision made by the on-site engineering team.

The flying order book and other rules taught provide a sound basis for safe flying - I still use them as my own SoPs now.

Sadly, my own instructor recently retired from training, but I still try to get to fly with him from time to time - long after qualifying.

I have not tried WAC, but Cabair are renowned for high prices an 'extras'.

Only one thing though, you wouldn't know it - because they haven't told the members - but BAFC, or rather Airways Aero Association (the owning company) has recently been sold. Search on BAFC and you'll find a thread on 'Changes at Wycombe'. Who knows what this will mean in reality?

HH

[smarthawke]

HH

If you read anything about the change of ownership of AAA Ltd at Wycombe then you'll see that the people in the know are more than happy with the change and are looking forward to a bright future. Why should anything change except for making things even better now there's a real GA/flying fanatical boss who wants to make WAP the best GA airfield in the country?

AAA Ltd have operated Wycombe Air Park for decades without problems and will continue to do so. BAFC is just one part of AAA Ltd. Do the BAFC customers need to be told independently when it doesn't directly affect them? Perhaps not.

[Pudnucker]

British Airways and General Aviation just don't seem to go together - especially as it's generally accepted that BA was the company that said it was cross subsidising and made the CAA up our fees. I boycott their flights and would boycott their flying school too..

[stevfire2]

BAFC has **** all to do with your arguements about the airline. The post was about where should he learn to fly.

BAFC at Wycombe Air Park enjoys the highest of standards in both aircraft, maintenance and facilities.

When you are qualified to comment I would welcome your observations. Until then butt out. Tool

[eharding]

When you are qualified to comment I would welcome your observations. Until then butt out. Tool


http://www.plus7minus5.co.uk/smilies/rofl.gif

You work in the tower..don't you?..I'm sure I've heard that 'Welcome To Wycombe' opening speech before.....

[gpn01]

"even better now there's a real GA/flying fanatical boss who wants to make WAP the best GA airfield in the country? "

....Sounds great, who's that ?

[A and C]

Now that the holding company AAA Ltd has been sold the BAFC has no direct conection with BA, however I don't see the standards of customer service changing in the short term.

In the long term I think that we will see a lot more investment at the airfield, this has to be good for both the airfield and BAFC.

The only area in which the BAFC could improve is publicity, they don't project well enough the fact that when they quote a price for an hours flying that is what you will pay. A lot of the other flying clubs in the area quote an attractive price and only when you committ to flying with them do you find out that they have to add VAT, landing fees, fuel surcharges "extra" instructor time and other charges to the price that you pay, some of these companys also have a very restrictive flying order book with rules slanted to require you to do more flying than is required by law.

Nothing is cheap in aviation but for what the quality of service the BAFC supplys it is very inexpensive.

[Pudnucker]

"When you are qualified to comment I would welcome your observations. Until then butt out. Tool"

Welcome to Wycombe. I only ever flew in there once - what an unfriendly snotty place it was too! Your email just confirms that. I now fly into White Waltham to see friends and family in the area.

I almost added "Are BAFC and BA connected?" - but thought that someone would politely correct me if I was wrong. I guess you just launched both boots in... :=

[trafficcontrol]

but without WAC's hidden charges (remember, WAC was taken over by Cabair...).


....and what might they be? :P Cabair has changed nothing in pricing for WAC. It remains the same....ok slightly increased due to fuel surcharges...:suspect: There are no hidden charges. My statements work out the same each month as they used to be! But yes you (BAFC) do have pretty planes... lol. only on the outside though :}

[smarthawke]

At the risk of continuing any bitchiness thread creeping.....

I'll include the press release that was issued when AAA Ltd (the operator of Wycombe Air Park) was sold by British Airways to Arora Holdings. The BAFC fleet will continue to operate in the BA colour scheme and continue to be known as the British Airways Flying Club. Note that it is not and never has been a BA flying school, which gives the impression that it exists to train BA pilots - BAFC is for 'leisure' flying training/private hire only.

Pudnucker. How you can slate a flying club for nearly having the same name as an airline and not liking the flying club because you don't like the airline's perceived policies leaves me somewhat baffled - especially in this day and age when we all need to fight for our GA rights.

To young 'trafficcontrol', I can ensure you that the BAFC fleet are maintained and presented to the highest standard found anywhere - 8 out of the aircraft 9 aircraft will have been repainted by Mick Allen by spring 2008 and retrimmed, all the engines will have been replaced in the last 3 years (having reached TBO+). Pop into the hangar and I'll show you the two sides to the coin....

I came to Wycombe 4 years ago (to work and fly) and yes it may be stricter in some ways with full ATC (a CAA requirement because of the number of movements) but it works fine and is as friendly as any other busy GA airfield (fixed wing and rotary flying and gliding etc). Having spent my previous life at grass airfields, it's a pleasure to operate mainly from tarmac, especially in the winter (and despite owning a taildragger). Oh, and we don't have to ponce around in hi-viz jackets either!

Certainly the dozens of visitors we had in with the free Flyer landing vouchers last month didn't seem to have any complaints.

Hopefully, wherever rogerthat777 learns to fly (and I hope it is at Wycombe) then he'll have as much fun as I'm having playing with aeroplanes all week long, on the ground and in the air and have done so now for nearly 30 years - saves me getting a real job....


And now the press release bit for people who are interested:


Sale of Airways Aero Associations Ltd

It is with great enthusiasm that today I am able to announce the sale by British Airways Plc. of its wholly owned subsidiary Airways Aero Associations Ltd. (AAA).

AAA has operated Wycombe Air Park, one of the busiest general aviation fields in U.K., for over forty years. British Airways Flying Club, part of AAA, is one of seventeen businesses based at the airfield.

The share capital of AAA Ltd has been purchased by The Arora Family Trust, of which Surinder Arora and his family are the beneficiaries.

In its continued effort to consolidate on core business strategy, British Airways has been receptive to Arora’s offer to purchase the subsidiary.

Surinder Arora learned to fly at British Airways Flying Club and gained over 800 flying hours before embarking upon a change in direction. Surinder’s career now sees him leading a major property development group, with interests in several sporting venues and in the International Hotel market. He has remained a fan of both general and commercial aviation for many years and retains a particular soft spot for Wycombe Air Park and for BA Flying Club.

British Airways and the Arora Group have cemented a close business relationship over a number of years in several areas. Many BA staff and customers will be familiar with at least three of the Arora Hotels, at Manchester city centre, and at Heathrow and Gatwick airports. The latest Hotel to join the Arora Group sits uniquely in Heathrow’s Terminal 5.

Arora will embrace the general aviation scene at Booker with a number of exciting expansion plans. The airfield’s current refurbishment programme will continue. The list of recently completed major projects (a new Control Tower, a new runway surface, new runway lighting and replacement hangars) will be used as a spring board for future development. Several exciting new ventures are being discussed, each of which will bring new life and more growth to the airfield. These will be revealed over the coming months as discussions progress.

BA Flying Club’s 60th Anniversary (to be celebrated in June 2008) will be yet another milestone for the prestigious Club on which to build a firm future for its Members and staff. There will be a continued commitment to provide excellence in general aviation training in top-of-the-range equipment.

Each of the Directors of AAA Ltd., with the exception of Tim Orchard (Managing Director) has resigned, as required by legal protocol. The new AAA Board will comprise Geoff Want as Non-Exec. Chairman, Guy Morris (Managing Director of Arora International Hotels) and Subash Arora (Company Secretary of Arora International Hotels).

All of AAA’s current staff, equipment, tenants and relationships at the airfield will continue in their present form. It’s “business as usual” but with a new lease of life, exciting new goals and new enthusiasm. We now have the ability to invest in a great future for BAFC, for Wycombe Air Park and for general aviation.

Tim Orchard

[trafficcontrol]

Na me and Kat know each other its ok don't worry, we just have a little banter every now and because we are across the apron! :-) No hard feelings! :-)

I know the BA fleet are in great shape having flown in them several times. Just a little joke, sorry Tim. You lot do a great job for us at WAC!:ok:

[smarthawke]

TC Don't worry, you're forgiven. Oh and the name isn't 'Tim', that was who wrote the press release....

[wsmempson]

No, his real name isn't Tim, it's..........aaaaargh!!!!!

[Pudnucker]

Didn't slate the flying club. Slating the airline - reread my post.

My first ever flight was with BAFC and actually found them very good. Will reiterate my thoughts on Booker though - that is it being unfriendly and snotty. Hopefully the new management will talk to their staff and remind them that the paying customer actually keeps the whole place going.....

I'll try flying in there again after xmas and will retract all comments if the experience changes!

[smarthawke]

Coffee is on me when you come in!

[gpn01]

Thought airfield management was unchanged - press release mentioned that Managing Director (a BA pilot?) of AAA is staying in place and that there's a non-exec on the board who's the Director of BA Ground Ops.

That aside, I hear that BAFC runs a good professional operation that's well worthwhile considering. WAC has a good fleet too (including twins if that's the direction you're planning). General operation at WAP is busy but well managed through highly competent ATC and sensible procedures. I think if you can get used to the volume of traffic here it'll stand you in good stead for anywhere else!

[rogerthat777]

Thanks for all posts so far, there's a lot about BA here, anyone care to comment about Stapleford?

Which location is better for actual flying, Stapleford's or BA's?...Reason I'm asking is coz I've flown at Redhill and the flying restrictions because of Gatwick are pretty tight.

[smarthawke]

Airspace around Wycombe is restricted to the South East by Heathrow but apart from that isn't too bad. With the Farnborough LARS and Benson nearby there'll be plenty of radar people to talk to if you want to. Out to the north there's loads of space to play without too much height restriction. Stapleford does have Luton, London City and Stansted to contend with.

AAA Ltd MD is, as was before the Arora connection, a BA pilot. The BA director of ground ops is now an ex-director of ground ops having recently retired.

As gpn01 said, it is busy here at Wycombe, but you soon get used to it and aren't worried about going anywhere else that's 'busy'. At some time during the training there'll be a northerly or southerly wind so you'll also get used to operating from grass on 17/35 (there's also a parallel grass runway for 24/06).

Many people are put off by things 'out of their ordinary' like full ATC or conversely short(er) grass strips, co-located gliding/para dropping etc but most of the time once you bite the bullet and have a go it isn't a problem in reality.

[gpn01]

I stand corrected about the BA Director of Ground Ops - I just read what BA's Investor Relations website says:
http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govmanage.

Additional point about Wycombe's grass runway 17/35 is that it has been NOTAM'd as closed until the Spring. So, I guess with prevelant Winter Northerlies around, there'll be plenty of practice for crosswind takeoffs & landings over the next few months.

[Hampshire Hog]

Smarthawke

I did not mean the lack of communication with members to be a really strong criticism. I just thought it might have been polite, if not to send a email, to update the members news on the website. After all, we pay an annual membership fee on top of flying costs which is competitive, but not incidental. A little timely news sharing might improve member participation and commitment. I was really quite surprised to read of the sale in a flying mag first.

Also, it was not entirely clear to me from the press release that BAFC would continue as such in the long term. I am grateful for any reassurance.

HH

[Greg2041]

I found Stapleford frankly unfriendly and a feeling that I was just another paying number. LateFinals


Errr isn't this where Alan Sugar flys from?

[wsmempson]

I thought that Alan "you're fired" Sugar flew from Elstree, in a Cirrus?:)