US House of Representatives passes the Freedom to Fly act of 2007

[Airmike767]

The House passed by voice vote this afternoon, 11 Dec 2007 the act to end age 60. A motion was made to count the ayes and nays later today, but it looks likely to be fast tracked to the Senate tonight or tomorrow. It is effective on the signature of the US president whom has previously said he would sign the legislation.

[Airbubba]

Oh no! The End of the World as We Know It! :)

Here's the House version of the bill:


A BILL
To modify the age-60 retirement standard for certain pilots and, for other purposes.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Freedom to Fly Act of 2007'.

SEC. 2. MODIFICATION OF FAA'S AGE-60 RETIREMENT STANDARD.

(a) In General- A pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as a pilot of an aircraft operated by an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, until attaining 65 years of age only if the pilot serves--

(1) as a required pilot in multi-crew aircraft operations; and

(2) with another pilot serving as a required pilot in such multi-crew aircraft operations who has not yet attained 60 years of age.

(b) Sunset of Age-60 Retirement Rule-

(1) IN GENERAL- On and after the effective date described in subsection (e), section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations shall have no further force or effect.

(2) REGULATIONS- Not later than 30 days after the effective date described in subsection (e), the Secretary of Transportation shall take such action as may be necessary to implement paragraph (1) and to modify the regulations relating to pilot privileges by reason of age.

(c) Applicability- The provisions of subsection (a) shall not provide a basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, that is made by a person who was a pilot and who attained 60 years of age before the effective date described in subsection (e) and is seeking a position as a pilot with such air carrier following that person's termination or cessation of employment or promotion or transfer to another position with such air carrier pursuant to section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, as in effect on the day before the effective date described in subsection (e).

(d) GAO Report After Modification of Age-60 Retirment Standard- Not later than 24 months after the effective date described in subsection (e), the Comptroller General of the United States shall report to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate and the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House of Representatives concerning the effect on aviation safety, if any, of the modification of the age standard contained in subsection (a).

(e) Effective Date- This Act shall take effect on the date that is 30 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1125:

[Airmike767]

The language is the same as in HR3074. No over and under for domestic.

[ARENDIII]

At last the US has been called screaming biting and scratching to the international table.
Let us all look forward to a new era-when the US eventually wakes up and finds that they are not the world but a small and very polluting part of it!

[Airbubba]

Look like the bill passed unanimously...

"Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act" is the title of the bill actually passed, it seems to differ somewhat from the one cited by me and in the thread title.

House Bill Extends Pilot Retirement Age

By JIM ABRAMS – 58 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The House voted unanimously Tuesday to extend the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65, changing a 1960 Federal Aviation Administration regulation forcing pilots to leave the cockpit at age 60.

The bill, if approved by the Senate, would put the U.S. retirement age in line with international standards. The International Civil Aviation Organization adopted an age 65 retirement age in November, 2006. The measure passed on a 390-0 vote.

"Each day that passes without raising the retirement age to 65, approximately five of our senior, most experienced pilots will be forced to retire," Transportation Committee Chairman James Oberstar, D-Minn., said.

The retirement age provision was originally included in a larger bill to reauthorize FAA programs that the House passed in September. But with the FAA bill unlikely to see action in the Senate this year, Oberstar and his Republican counterpart, Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., agreed to move the retirement bill separately in hopes of winning quick Senate approval.

The bill would require pilots who reach age 60 to have a medical certificate renewed every six months, to continue to participate in FAA pilot training and qualification programs and be administered a line check every six months.

Following international practices, flights out of U.S. airports for foreign destinations would have to have at least one pilot under age 60.

The legislation is not retroactive, and airlines would not be required to hire back pilots who retire before the measure goes into effect.

The bill is H.R. 4343.

[Huck]

"Each day that passes without raising the retirement age to 65, approximately five of our senior, most experienced pilots will be forced to retire," Transportation Committee Chairman James Oberstar, D-Minn., said.


And five of our younger pilots get to make captain.

And five of our commuter pilots get a major airline job.

And five of our CFI's get to go fly 121.

And five new guys get CFI jobs......

[C172-Heavy]

"And five of our younger pilots get to make captain. --- at 1200 hours!!

And five of our commuter pilots get a major airline job. --- at 600 hours!!

And five of our CFI's get to go fly 121. --- at 259 hours!!!

And five new guys get CFI jobs......" --- well, they are the ones who should be 12,000 hours!!!



Seriously, I am a CFI, and it scares me when I hear the lowering of minimums . . .

[sevenstrokeroll]

solution to polution...stop delays by getting rid of RJ's into big cities

use airspace with planes that carry 150, not 50, less delays, less fuel burned.

less jobs

...and the lowering of min hiring requirements is just awful...

and Dick Cheney is WRONG

[PantLoad]

ARENDIII,

It's your choice to hate Americans and/or America. We Americans are what we are...no more, no less. I'm sorry you feel that way about us and our country. While we certainly have our share of faults, Americans are very proud to be Americans.

Although this thread is not the forum for complaints about America polluting the earth, or any other gripes you have about us, we will respectfully listen to [read] what you have to say.

Thank you for participating in PPrune.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

[M.Mouse]

Pantload

What a restrained reply! The comments you replied to say more about the ignorance of the poster than the generalised rubbish he/she wrote.

[Huck]

Seriously, I am a CFI, and it scares me when I hear the lowering of minimums . . .

Let's hear from you about 2011 and see if you feel the same way.

[moggiee]

And five of our younger pilots get to make captain.
And five of our commuter pilots get a major airline job.
And five of our CFI's get to go fly 121.
And five new guys get CFI jobs......
They will still get those jobs - they'll just be slightly older.

60 or 65 - it makes not difference to the number of airline pilots out there, just the age at which people get their airline jobs.

[Airbubba]

Here's the actual language that was passed:



Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)

110th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 4343

---------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACT

To amend title 49, United States Code, to modify age standards for pilots engaged in commercial aviation operations.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act'.

SEC. 2. AGE STANDARDS FOR PILOTS.

(a) In General- Chapter 447 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`Sec. 44729. Age standards for pilots

`(a) In General- Subject to the limitation in subsection (c), a pilot may serve in multicrew covered operations until attaining 65 years of age.

`(b) Covered Operations Defined- In this section, the term `covered operations' means operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

`(c) Limitation for International Flights-

`(1) APPLICABILITY OF ICAO STANDARD- A pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in covered operations between the United States and another country only if there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.

`(2) SUNSET OF LIMITATION- Paragraph (1) shall cease to be effective on such date as the Convention on International Civil Aviation provides that a pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as pilot-in-command in international commercial operations without regard to whether there is another pilot in the flight deck crew who has not attained age 60.

`(d) Sunset of Age 60 Retirement Rule- On and after the date of enactment of this section, section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, shall cease to be effective.

`(e) Applicability-

`(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--

`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member; or

`(B) such person is newly hired by an air carrier as a pilot on or after such date of enactment without credit for prior seniority or prior longevity for benefits or other terms related to length of service prior to the date of rehire under any labor agreement or employment policies of the air carrier.

`(2) PROTECTION FOR COMPLIANCE- An action taken in conformance with this section, taken in conformance with a regulation issued to carry out this section, or taken prior to the date of enactment of this section in conformance with section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (as in effect before such date of enactment), may not serve as a basis for liability or relief in a proceeding, brought under any employment law or regulation, before any court or agency of the United States or of any State or locality.

`(f) Amendments to Labor Agreements and Benefit Plans- Any amendment to a labor agreement or benefit plan of an air carrier that is required to conform with the requirements of this section or a regulation issued to carry out this section, and is applicable to pilots represented for collective bargaining, shall be made by agreement of the air carrier and the designated bargaining representative of the pilots of the air carrier.

`(g) Medical Standards and Records-

`(1) MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS- Except as provided by paragraph (2), a person serving as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations shall not be subject to different medical standards, or different, greater, or more frequent medical examinations, on account of age unless the Secretary determines (based on data received or studies published after the date of enactment of this section) that different medical standards, or different, greater, or more frequent medical examinations, are needed to ensure an adequate level of safety in flight.

`(2) DURATION OF FIRST-CLASS MEDICAL CERTIFICATE- No person who has attained 60 years of age may serve as a pilot of an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless the person has a first-class medical certificate. Such a certificate shall expire on the last day of the 6-month period following the date of examination shown on the certificate.

`(h) Safety-

`(1) TRAINING- Each air carrier engaged in covered operations shall continue to use pilot training and qualification programs approved by the Federal Aviation Administration, with specific emphasis on initial and recurrent training and qualification of pilots who have attained 60 years of age, to ensure continued acceptable levels of pilot skill and judgment.

`(2) LINE EVALUATIONS- Not later than 6 months after the date of enactment of this section, and every 6 months thereafter, an air carrier engaged in covered operations shall evaluate the performance of each pilot of the air carrier who has attained 60 years of age through a line check of such pilot. Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, an air carrier shall not be required to conduct for a 6-month period a line check under this paragraph of a pilot serving as second-in-command if the pilot has undergone a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation during that period.

`(3) GAO REPORT- Not later than 24 months after the date of enactment of this section, the Comptroller General shall submit to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate a report concerning the effect, if any, on aviation safety of the modification to pilot age standards made by subsection (a).'.

(b) Clerical Amendment- The analysis for chapter 447 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`44729. Age standards for pilots.'.
Passed the House of Representatives December 11, 2007.



http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.4343:

[411A]

Let see, 172Heavy, you might be surprised at the following...

In the late 1970's I personally was training First Officers for a major overseas airline in the B707, and when I received same for training, they had, up to that time, a total of 260 hours.

All passed (very selectively considered beforehand) and absolutely none crashed.
All are serior Captains now, or have just retired.

Just think, it is possible....:}

[twistedenginestarter]

I love this logic that we'll let old timers sit up the front but only if they're with a younger chap. Is this so they can be helped to the toilet?:}

[foxmoth]

And five of our younger pilots get to make captain.

And five of our commuter pilots get a major airline job.

And five of our CFI's get to go fly 121.

And five new guys get CFI jobs......

And now all of them will be able to work to 65 if they so choose, adding to their employable age and pensions - also it will probably not take them an extra 5 years to get a job (unless they are rubbish) so they will actually benefit more.:rolleyes:

[Huck]

No, it's the same amount of time "in the business" - you just start later in life.

And using the time value of money, that is less earnings total.

And this doesn't help pensions at all......


There are only so many jobs in the piloting profession. All we've done is slid the employable age bracket to the right five years.

[FLCHG]

What is now the normal retirement age for a British Airways pilot at the present..... 55, 60 or 65??.... Thanks

[oceancrosser]

solution to polution...stop delays by getting rid of RJ's into big cities
use airspace with planes that carry 150, not 50, less delays, less fuel burned.
less jobs
I think you may have a point there, congestion at JFK and other US airports seems in no small part due to endless lines of RJs providing the umteenth daily frequency to Smallville or wherever. Some rationalisation is due.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I still remember when the berlin airlift went to all C54's instead of DC3's

airspace is airspace, put something big there and take more people

we used to take 100-150 seaters into LGA, take them to PIT and they switched to smaller planes to go to "smallville"...we ran on time except for wx.

time to reregulate the industry!

[CALDC9]

here is more info from another forum
"Senate passed HR 4343 by unanimous consent this evening at roughly 2145.
When Bush signs it, it's law.
Hayes, etc. will present it to White House tomorrow AM to try to get this signed
ASAP."
:hmm:

[keckel]

Seven,

It is reregulated! Before the CAB was disolved The fares were set
and airlines competed on service. After the CAB was disolved and
after several trips through bankruptcy starting with Frank Lorenzo
the courts now regulate the airlines by setting costs and every
competes on fares. simple...
Whats gonna turn it around? Probably nothing.

[XL5]

Airline flying is now a push button activity. Those ancient pilots having attained hard won skills honed by years of flying classics have seen those same skills atrophied by virtue of years spent pushing buttons (as per SOPs).

It's therefore a disingenuous argument to claim that advanced age, by default, is accompanied by advanced abilities of superior judgment and competence. The concept of diminishing return comes into play.

Of much more importance in today's somewhat poisoned industry is the ability to function on less than adequate sleep in an environment of management's control and command in which every drop of productivity is extracted with responsibility without autonomy lurking as an ever present menace to true operational safety. Being able (able = young enough) to correctly function without proper rest or support is paramount. Any idiot can push the APP button, but said idiot does have to actually be awake and cognizant of the situation to appropriately do so.

I've seen very few retire at 60 who should have stayed, but I've seen many in the late 50's bracket who would do the industry along with their own declining health a considerable favour by letting the exit door hit them in the rear end as it irrevocably closes. No problems therefore as long as the new legislation stops the aging process advancing beyond the age of 60, not quite so benign a situation however if it doesn't.

[free at last]

you must be a joke!!!:)

[BelArgUSA]

I know that many of you, younger pilots, will object to the new 65 age limit. Yet this has existed in many other countries, even before ICAO approved it. The main objection, overseas, was really a question of full retirement pay and benefits, and the airlines, on their side, being forced to employ "senior" pilots with higher "senior" salaries, instead of replacing them with pilots having a much lower salary.
xxx
I know, your immediate objection will be that the senior pilots will occupy the "LH seat" that you would like to have today. It will, for some, delay your upgrade because of vacancies for captain positions. But... see it this way...
xxx
Many countries, unlike USA, do have "age discrimination", that is, the age limits at which they consider you "too old" for being hired. And despite the age anti-discrimination laws, the US airlines did refrain to hire a pilot aged 45 or 50, or older, for very simple reasons. As pilots, we all want, one day in our career, to be a "captain"...
xxx
Time from date of hire, to captaincy has varied because of various circumstances in the US airline industry... Would you agree that the average, with major US airlines, could be said to be some 10 years to become a captain...? Would you accept to be hired yet knowing that you shall never be a captain...? When I was a young pilot, I would never have considered to be an airline pilot if knowing I would never be captain.
xxx
With the 60 age limit, rarely were pilots hired by major airlines in their late 40s, so, in effect, most "HR types" and "chief pilots" would refrain from hiring the more mature candidates, despite the no-discrimination laws...
xxx
Now, the "maximum age limit", whichever is applied as unwritten standard, is in fact raised by 5 extra years. If airline XYZ would rarely take pilots over... say 42, they now will probably consider, say... 47 as a practical limit.
xxx
So, those of you, more mature candidates should have a smile. You still can get hired, and become a captain before reaching retirement... Good luck to those of you who will benefit from the new rules.
xxx
My airline here in Argentina has a 65 limit and always had that limit, and yes, we have hired pilots at age 45... who became captain at 55, and were able to have 10 years of career as captain.
xxx
All the best to you -
:)
Happy contrails

[XL5]

you must be a joke!!!:)

You Mr free at last, must be one of the old timers. Greetings grandad. :)

To answer your question: Err, no. But then I'm not close to 60 either, so I fail to see any merit to this age 60+ argument. Of course, should I reach 60 and become desperate I might change my tune; self-serving expediency has a habit of overriding integrity and common sense.

[free at last]

I am not a grand dad yet but if I where I would teach you a few things you haven't learned in life. And if you were my co-pilot I would make you sit on you'r hands and really learn a lot!:):):)

[PantLoad]

I've never understood the logic of all of this. In my mind, we should be lobbying for LOWERING the age to...say, 55....Yep, that's it...55!

So, at 55 I get out, walk away with a fat pension, medical/dental benefits for life, etc., etc.

Why make me wait to 60...or 65...to get all this????

(So, you think I'm an idiot.... Members of Congress have a similar deal already!)


Fly Safe,

PantLoad

[Wingswinger]

Why make me wait to 60...or 65...to get all this????

Probably because you operate in a free market and it will have to be negotiated with a (reluctant) employer.

(So, you think I'm an idiot.... Members of Congress have a similar deal already!)

Because they probably have the ability, like our MPs on this side of the ditch, to vote themselves a benefits package (at taxpayers' expense) unobtainable outside the public sector.

[BelArgUSA]

Hola PantLoad -
xxx
Well, I can make you understand how it does work overseas, about pensions, and medical insurances... In the USA, you have the Social Security, the disgrace of a nation that calls itself the first nation of the world... Overseas, people who work, (not only pilots) pay generally higher income tax, but have great benefits.
xxx
Most companies (including airlines) give full retirement benefits after a set "career" time... often, it is 30 years. Some places, some type of careers, give such benefits after 25 years... i.e. government employees of some countries...
xxx
In my airline here in Argentina, we can get full retirement benefit after 30 years of service... So if you were hired at 25 of age, you can get full retirement on your 55th birthday. Many pilots quit when they reach the full retirement years of service (then go overseas to get more money, unreported, for cash "tax free")... Most notorious in that "hobby" are airline pilots from Europe. In many countries, as well, after reaching the "full 30 years career", staying longer will not increase your retirement This is an incentive for people to quit earlier... Many of our pilots leave after 30 years of career, having reached their "maximum" for retirement.
xxx
In the USA, sadly, I know many pilots who were forced to retire at 60, and became unable to survive decently, after having suffered layoffs, and forced to wait for age 62 to get partial Social Security retirement income, a few pennies. Good friends of mine survive as bartender, or taxicab driver... and pay their ex-wives who got their house and Mercedes... which is unheard of, for pilots who had a career overseas.
xxx
Living in a "third world" country, I will survive ok, when I hit 65 next November.
The Beatles had a song... "Will you still love me, when I'm 64..."
:)
Happy contrails.

[free at last]

Well said! A tribute to a true Professional. Keep the Blue side Up. :):):)

[411A]

Oddly enough, XL5, many of the 'younger' folks I fly with now have rather a hard time keeping awake, to actually push those all-important buttons, when operating on minimum rest.:uhoh:
Day or night.

[oceancrosser]

During the last 2-3 weeks, me and my colleagues where I come from have been battling a spell of bad weather, with frequent passing of low-pressure systems and winds of 45-70 knots. Obviously, for some reasons these winds are never straight down the runway and carry their usual amount of gusts and windshears. I am heading back tonight and the forecast for my arrival time is for gusts to 58kts. I can assure you that involves no pushbutton activity, my 75 or 76 morphes into a basic airplane. :ugh:

[BelArgUSA]

One of you gentlemen sent me a PM...
He had good points... but I shall mention again this fact.
xxx
Obviously, there is a time for all of us, to quit flying (or even drive a car) at the age of "senility"... physical reasons, and mental reasons. Licensing is a question. You will now be told to hang your coat at 65, my USA friends, even if you would like to continue flying your 747 or your DC10... and maybe chase Suzy, the SSS (Sexy Senior Stew) - provided you get an remedial emergency treatment of Viagra administered by I/V...
xxx
Yet, 65 is not the end of your flying, you can still take a Cessna, and at age 78 or 83, be at 1,000 AGL, on the approach path of an airport with airline traffic. Yet, you can be legal to fly with no age limit, privately if you want to... I do not know age statistics of "old farts" still currently flying. Personally I know one who is 82 or 83...
xxx
Sad consideration to mention -
I recall a Cessna (172) collision with a PSA 727 in San Diego, was in 1978... So even if 65 is the new age limit in USA, you yet have a tremendous responsibility, after a given age, to take a lighplane in the air, and avoid a mid-air which will be, God forbid, a high density A-380 with 750 passengers going to a sunny beach in the Carribean...
xxx
And those of you who know the FARs... read Part 125... it deals with commercial operations as well, of large airplanes. Yet, there is no age limit to be a captain or a first officer on an airplane that could be... a 1011 with some 350 passengers. It is not an "airline operation", yet FAR 125 is an operation for hire... without a typical airline AOC.
xxx
I have an acquaintance, who, at age 73 (and a great guy), retired airline, who operates (and flies often himself) a pair of 727-100s, with VIP interior, some 50 luxury seats, with passengers such as famous rock-music bands, or NBA sport teams... He is paid for that, and it is a commercial operation, and perfecty legal, worldwide...
xxx
So, the new FAR 121 age change... is really not changing much. Fact is, as many of you did mention, there are pilots who should be forced to retire well before their 55 or 60th birthday... How to deal with these considerations...?
xxx
Well, at my advanced age, I am not proficient with push buttons anyway. Personally, I dont know that "Otto Länd" guy you always mention in the Tech Forum... I rather fly it down like my good buddy "Manuel"... It is more fun.
xxx
Let me push some buttons (if I can find them on the mouse) to publish this.
:)
Happy contrails

[Airbubba]

`(1) NONRETROACTIVITY- No person who has attained 60 years of age before the date of enactment of this section may serve as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations unless--

`(A) such person is in the employment of that air carrier in such operations on such date of enactment as a required flight deck crew member;

I'm told that the FedEx MEC lobbied hard to keep this provision in the bill allow over 60 FE's to come back to the controls. Seems like the FedEx FE's who have been captains still wear four stripes kinda like the US Air FO's who have been bumped out of the left seat. This will save on uniform costs I suppose.:)

A few U.S. pax airlines still have some classic planes running around, some of those FE's will be back in the left seat if they like, or at least, getting some form of bypass pay.

ALPA sure slid this thing through fast, APA and some of the vocal opposition were caught napping. Looks like it's all over but the whining...

[Huck]

I'm told that the FedEx MEC lobbied hard to keep this provision in the bill allow over 60 FE's to come back to the controls.

Yes. I just moved back ~200 numbers.

And it wasn't the MEC, it was the MEC chair. He's looking to move to Herndon.
One of the MEC told me the NWA response to the FE's over sixty was "f*ck 'em." A little harsh, maybe, but hard to argue with, if you truly represent all the pilots, not just the ones of a certain vintage.

[beamer]

But why in God's name would anyone want to carry on with all this after the age of 60 anyway ?

[hetfield]

@beamer

Why not?

[Airbubba]

It's a done deal:

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
December 13, 2007

Statement by the Press Secretary
White House News

On Thursday, December 13, 2007, the President signed into law:

H.R. 4343, the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act," which raises the mandatory retirement age from 60 years to 65 years for pilots serving on commercial passenger flights within the United States.

[tripnic]

I would think this is great news for the expat pilot world. The largest pool of unemployed qualified pilots has just dried up! Maybe this will help push salaries up (I know - wishful thinking).

TripNic

[Decolar]

Was already passed by House, and also Senate. Last night it was signed by Bush.

How will this affect the manpower situation for the airlines that hire U.S. pilots?

What effect will this have on the hiring agencies that I see advertise on this website, PilotsDirect, Rishworth, etc?

[hetfield]

Sometimes Mr. Bush isn't too bad....

[MYROSTERSUCKS]

you mean the sixty odd 777 skippers sitting in India to fly for Jet airways!!!!!!!! :-)

[B767PL]

I bet all the guys at the regional level in the U.S are jumping for joy about this at the moment. But it will benefit them in the future as well.

When contract negotiations come up for all the regional pilots that are now facing the crap pay, they better be pulling together and stay their ground for higher pay, as well as T&C's considering they might end up stuck where they are for a while.

A possible across the board hiring slow down for the next 5 years?

[oceancrosser]

A possible across the board hiring slow down for the next 5 years?

That has not been the experience elsewhere, it will not be compulsory to fly to 65. Some will lose their medical, others will choose to leave earlier etc.

US pilots may be worse off than others though having had paycuts and lost retirement funds (the US retirement funding system does leave something to be desired) and ultimately the dismal exchange rate of the dollar.

We might even see older US pilots flocking overseas to cash in on the exchange rate and tax-free salaries (yes I know Uncle Sams tries to come after it) for a few years and then retire.

The airline pilot profession in the US is distinctly different from the rest of the world as far as pilots there being fairly "old" when they join the bigger airlines.
And regional airlines pay is appalling.

[Huck]

The airline pilot profession in the US is distinctly different from the rest of the world as far as pilots there being fairly "old" when they join the bigger airlines.
And regional airlines pay is appalling.

Not for long. At least the first part.

US Civil aviation is drying up. Student starts are down. Regional carriers are hurting for people. The TSA and the FAA have sucked the lure out of general aviation, and Bush is pressing for user fees.

And "license harmonization" is today what "ICAO age limit standardization" was five years ago.

If I were a betting man I'd put all my money in overseas flying academies. In ten years the cockpits in the U.S will look like the bridges of today's container ships.....

[B767PL]

oceancrosser, I hope you are correct in saying that my thought has not been the case elsewhere. But as you have mentioned, pilots elsewhere have not been shafted so thoroughly over the last years as they have in the U.S and that may play a significant role, seeing as many of those pilots I think will likely try to work a couple of extra years to earn back what they had lost.


Huck, I hope you are correct as well. The flight schools and other CFI's in my area, are all saying they dont remember the last time it was so slow, even ones that have been doing it for years. Actually, just 1 minute ago as I was typing this an FAA examiner stopped by and we got on the topic, and he said the same thing! That everyone in the area is slooww. Might just be a slow period, maybe itll pick up, but gives you something to think about I suppose. I wonder if its like this in other states at local FBO's (not pilot factories).

I don't think there is a place on this earth where the pilot profession has been decimated so much. If regional guys arent able to fight for better pay and conditions in upcomming contract negotiations, and this age 65 thing does in fact slow hiring, I will feel sorry for them and myself, as I will be in that position as well. ....

I'll just start leaving tip-jars by the flight deck door :E

[Skydrol Leak]

I just love how all this legislations are getting passed by the people in senate who most of them never had an experience flying a real aircraft as a pilot.
Probably the biggest excitement was knowing a pilot next door. Yet they decide about on how old you have to be on your last trip of your life as a professional pilot, never minding the fact that you have put in 40+ years of your life serving the public interest.
At least my point of view...

[B767PL]

I believe the whole motion was voted for, and approved by ALPA ahead of time. So I suppose that the people in the senate are acting under the suggestion of ALPA, and trusting that they know more in the field then themselves, kinda like advisors. This is what I would hope anyways, as you are completely correct.

[Raas767]

The most junior B777 First Officers at my airline have been there 15 years. We have had the worst stagnation in the history of the airline. From my perspective all this does is extend my time in the right seat by 5 years, for a total of 20, where I have to babysit some old captain drooling all over himself on South America all nighters!
For a lot of us this is a disaster!

[Huck]

I believe the whole motion was voted for, and approved by ALPA ahead of time.

By the BOD, but not by the membership.

We voted against it. Overwhelmingly.

[DesiPilot]

This is what I just received from the FAA.


FAASTeam - FAASafety.gov

InFO - President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law
Notice Number: NOTC1079

Subject:
President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law, Affecting Pilots Under Part 121

Purpose:
This InFO announces the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act" (the Act), effective immediately, December 13, 2007, and highlights key provisions of the Act.

Background:
In November, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) revised the maximum age for certain pilots in international operations from age 60 to age 65. Until 12/13/07, the United States, an ICAO member state, limited its pilots operating under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 121 to age 60. Now those pilots may continue until age 65, as specified in the Act.

Discussion:
Key provisions of the Act include the following:

. As of 12/13/07, part 121, § 121.383(c), specifying age 60, ceases to be effective.

. A pilot age 60+ acting as pilot in command (PIC) in international operations must be paired with a pilot under age 60 (consistent with the current ICAO requirement).

. In domestic operations both pilots may be age 60+.

. It permits the continued employment of a pilot who reaches age 60 on or after 12/13/07.

. It permits the employment as a new-hire a pilot who reached age 60 before 12/13/07.

. A pilot age 60+ will not be subjected to different, greater, or more frequent medical exams.

. Any pilot age 60+ must hold a first-class medical certificate, renewable on a 6-month cycle.

. Any air carrier employing pilots age 60+ must adjust its training program to ensure such pilots' skill and judgment continue at acceptable levels.

. Any pilot age 60+ must undergo a line check at 6-month intervals.

. For a pilot age 60+ acting as second in command (SIC), a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation may substitute for a required line check.

Recommended Action:
Directors of safety, directors of operations, chief pilots, trainers, and pilots under part 121 should be aware of the Act and should collaborate immediately in implementing its provisions.

The exact language of the Act can be downloaded at the following public Web site:
http://thomas.loc.gov . In the "Search Bill Text" box click on "Bill Number," enter "HR 4343" and click Search.

An InFO contains valuable information for operators that should help them meet certain administrative, regulatory, or operational requirements with relatively low urgency or impact on safety.

For more information on this and other InFO's please go to the following URL:

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info

You have received this notice from FAASafety.gov because you have selected "General Information" in your preferences on your FAASafety.gov account. Click here to log in and edit your preferences on FAASafety.gov.
Safety is a learned behavior...Learn to be safer at the Learning Center found on FAASafety.gov
FAASafety.gov | Email Preferences | Opt Out
Do not reply to this email as it is an unmonitored alias. Contact us for comments or questions.

[GlueBall]

F/Os "Raas767" and "Huck:" Print and save your comments. Read them again when you turn age 57 or so.

:ooh:

[411A]

US Civil aviation is drying up. Student starts are down. Regional carriers are hurting for people. The TSA and the FAA have sucked the lure out of general aviation....


Really?
That must be why business jet sales are at an all time high, and expected to remain so for about five-seven more years.:}

And, as for student starts, who cares...plenty of us older guys around in very good health to carry the load...:D

[Tandemrotor]

Oceancrosser wrote:

it will not be compulsory to fly to 65.

That is indeed true for anyone who has already reached the peak of their career. eg LHS of a longhaul a/c.

They have many choices.

However for the likes of Raas 767, and perhaps Huck it is far more of a compulsion than an 'option'.

If they wish to achieve that job at the 'peak' of their career, and make up for 5 years of salary stagnation, they will have few choices.

Such is the way of the World.

Just don't stuff it down their throats!

[411A]

Don't fret, Raas767, just think of your added time in the RHS as a character-building exercise.:rolleyes:

From my perspective*, well worthwhile.

*Keeping in mind that in my particular circumstance, I personally never was in the RHS of a jet...any jet... started directly in the LHS of a heavy jet, a 4-engine one.
Of course, a fair bit of RHS flying in large piston and trubopropeller types.

One wonders...can 70 be far behind?:E

[Huck]

Glueball, et al... I won't insult your intelligence by pointing out the odds that a pilot will make it to 57 at the controls of a heavy jet, much less at a premier company with good pay.

So... at 57, you KNOW you've made it, and yes, your perspective has changed.

At 41, I figure on a 60-70% chance of making it to 57 unscathed by either FAA doctors or company MBA's. So quite frankly I'd take a bird in the hand, right now.

As the 70-year-old pilot of a Beech 18 told me when I was first starting out twenty years ago: "It's all whose ox is getting gored...."

411 - I've never asked - do you/did you own a C-411?

[411A]

411 - I've never asked - do you/did you own a C-411?


My corporation does, along with a CE441.
Nice aeroplane the CE411, provided they are flown correctly.
Smooth and surprisingly fast.
Picked up three from the factory brand new, many years ago.
Thinking about a KingAir now, perhaps shortly.
As for First officers 'trapped' in the RHS...perhaps I have been a bit unfair.
Yes, upgrades might be slowed, however these younger guys now have the opportunity to fly longer, if they so desire.
And, I suspect many will...if for no other reason than to 'pay' for the now-divorced spouse.
I don't have that particular difficulty, however I do enjoy contract flying for part of the year, overseas.
And, on a TriStar, I'm certainly not keeping anyone in the RHS...:rolleyes:

[Desert Diner]

where I have to babysit some old captain drooling all over himself on South America all nighters!


Raas, you need to meet more people:ugh:

[Airbubba]

One of the MEC told me the NWA response to the FE's over sixty was "f*ck 'em." A little harsh, maybe, but hard to argue with, if you truly represent all the pilots, not just the ones of a certain vintage.

I suppose the NWA MEC will have to do a reassessment of their position in light of recent events.:)

Nobody in either house of Congress cast a single vote in opposition to the age change. I guess it wasn't so controversial after all. Looks like the whiners on the ALPA forums did little or nothing to oppose the legislation outside union cyberspace. And, they'll be whining for years to come just like with every other change. I would have been happy either way and know that when the next round of mergers and bankruptcies hit, this will look like small change.

This rule change has been in the works for decades, I guess it reached a tipping point when the FAA got onboard after pressure from ALPA. Looks like the feds were taking their sweet time implementing the new age limit so ALPA did an end run and ran it through Congress. I saw an old friend who is a former MEC chairman weeks ago and he confidently predicted the outcome, said they had their ducks in a row. I was skeptical but he was absolutely right.

Yes, upgrades might be slowed, however these younger guys now have the opportunity to fly longer, if they so desire.
And, I suspect many will...if for no other reason than to 'pay' for the now-divorced spouse.

Shhh, entirely true, but they don't know it yet...

[ExRAFboy]

Not all of the US Part 121 work force have the luxury of a pension from the majors (albeit diluted).
Many of the freightdogs have labored amongst the freight/charter companies that have rolled in and out of existance.
Now we have equality with the rest of the US workforce and can at least work (our choice) doing what we love, until age 65 brings full social security.
The age 65 rule will benefit ALL part 121 pilots. If you elect to work past 60,
think what the value of 5 years of LHS pay will be for you.

[RRAAMJET]

ExRAF: '...will benefit every 121..."
No.
Try persuading most of the 25-year-plus FO's at American that. And the loss of upgrade income compounded over a career is enormous. I'm done with the US - it's been nothing but a disastrous experiment for me. The key is that the industry here is neither regulated nor de-regulated, and the Gov. feels an overwhelming desire to keep meddling with it and moving goalposts. From what I'm seeing today, the big winner is AA management, as our union is now totally fractured into those who are WB Captains and refusing to move, and everybody else. I'm sure it's the same at all the other carriers. This is one of the most reckless moves ALPA has ever made - a result of them rolling over like sick lambs when their pensions were under threat. Whimps.:mad:
Ex-RAFalso...

[Stearperson]

This is an absolute disaster for any US 121 pilot who is not now a captain.
John Prater, President of ALPA lied to and tricked the very members who pay his salary with their dues.
Upon taking the position of ALPA President he stated that he would not support a change to age 65. He did an about face and pushed this rule through then urged Bush to sign it. He is a two faced lying SOB. Anyone who is not a captain and is paying ALPA dues is having his money ripped off and was horribly mis represented.
ALPA harmed my career by convincing my former airline to file bankrupcy so a larger airline could purchase them the next day with no standing contracts thus placing over 3000 pilots on the street. Now as furloughees were finally being called back ALPA endorsed this P.O.S. legislation.
I then went to another Major airline hoping to advance only to find absolute stagnation for the last 3 years. Looks like it will be another 5 now!
I am extremely dissapointed with our govenment and our industry. I am not however surprised by ALPA.........this is the type of back stabbing I have come to expect from them. Anyone who has been harmed by age 65 should well consider pulling out of ALPA if they don't want to waste any more money.

[opster]

A bit of information you might find interesting from faa.gov:
InFO - President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law (December 13, 2007)
Notice Number: NOTC1079
Subject:
President Today Signed Age 65 Into Law, Affecting Pilots Under Part 121
Purpose:
This InFO announces the "Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act" (the Act), effective immediately, December 13, 2007, and highlights key provisions of the Act.
Background:
In November, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) revised the maximum age for certain pilots in international operations from age 60 to age 65. Until 12/13/07, the United States, an ICAO member state, limited its pilots operating under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 121 to age 60. Now those pilots may continue until age 65, as specified in the Act.
Discussion:
Key provisions of the Act include the following:
. As of 12/13/07, part 121, § 121.383(c), specifying age 60, ceases to be effective.
. A pilot age 60+ acting as pilot in command (PIC) in international operations must be paired with a pilot under age 60 (consistent with the current ICAO requirement).
. In domestic operations both pilots may be age 60+.
. It permits the continued employment of a pilot who reaches age 60 on or after 12/13/07.
. It permits the employment as a new-hire a pilot who reached age 60 before 12/13/07.
. A pilot age 60+ will not be subjected to different, greater, or more frequent medical exams.
. Any pilot age 60+ must hold a first-class medical certificate, renewable on a 6-month cycle.
. Any air carrier employing pilots age 60+ must adjust its training program to ensure such pilots' skill and judgment continue at acceptable levels.
. Any pilot age 60+ must undergo a line check at 6-month intervals.
. For a pilot age 60+ acting as second in command (SIC), a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation may substitute for a required line check.
Recommended Action:
Directors of safety, directors of operations, chief pilots, trainers, and pilots under part 121 should be aware of the Act and should collaborate immediately in implementing its provisions.
The exact language of the Act can be downloaded at the following public Web site:
http://thomas.loc.gov . In the "Search Bill Text" box click on "Bill Number," enter "HR 4343" and click Search.
An InFO contains valuable information for operators that should help them meet certain administrative, regulatory, or operational requirements with relatively low urgency or impact on safety.
For more information on this and other InFO's please go to the following URL:
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info
:ok:

[Ignition Override]

NewBS:
Well-spoken. We could be sort of like the AMA for doctors or the ABA for attorneys.

Until one experiences a merger, whereby the resulting corporate entity is a
totally new entity, one might believe that we have a national union. Many pilot groups are totally self-centered. One group of senior pilots last week filed a lawsuit to challenge some adjustments in very small pension targeting. The younger, very junior pilots-many of whom just came back from 4-5 years furlough (I fly with many)-have no pension right now. None.

As for solidarity, let's nor forget Delta after Eastern went under. Were more than three Eastern pilots hired by Delta? I can name about eight or more at my company with whom I've flown or trained.
As for age limits, it is doubtful that the age limit would have been raised, if pilot salaries at several US majors had not been slashed by 30-38%.
The second factor concerns many senior pilots, who lost up to 60 or 80 % or their pensions due to severe under-funding over many years by Upper Mgmts, allowed by various US regulations.

Even if pilots can work 3-5 extra years (before they lose their medical certification etc), this will not begin to really compensate for the pillaging of this industry by various forces, stated below.
The clever, ruthless tactic of some US airlines to terminate pension plans has inspired other US industries to do the same, which created much more pressure on the quasi-private PBGC to wonder how it can help fund the smaller lost pensions. An airline pilot might receive about $28,000-$45,000 per year from the PBGC. Nice retirement you wonder, after 30 years of loyal service, training and focus on safety/pax comfort?

The pressure to destroy the US airline pilot profession comes from a few or all of these angles: Wall Street hedge-fund managers, some airline CEOs :E(often paid tens of millions of dollars in cash and stock bonuses-AFTER atrocious 30-38% pay cuts demanded from labor), airline Board Members, various powerful anti-labor factions within the GOP (let's be frank here) executive, legislative and judicial branches and other departments (i.e. DOT) of the US govt, or the fact that US labor laws allow that when large numbers of jets/routes are switched to another carrier, that the currently qualified pilots are NOT sent with the jets/routes.

Will continuous flying of long-haul widebody trips (i.e. if already performed since age 53) over numerous years allow most of those pilots to retain their First Class medicals until age 65, if they exercize and eat healthy food, compared to narrow-body pilots?

[Stearperson]

New BS:

I like your ideas. That is exactly how most unions work. A plumber or longshoreman or electrician can move to a new company and retain their pay and expirience level.
The union also takes care of pensions and medical insurance so greedy CEOs cannot get their hands on it.
ALPA should have taken this approach from the beginning and this would be a much more stable and fulfilling career.

[bpp]

If ALPA operated as you stated above wouldn't the less experienced or more junior pilots still complain that you are taking their rightful seat?
Why does someone who has been a member of a union longer that a junior worker have to retire at certain age just to allow the junior worker to upgrade?
Does this happen at the plumbers union? How about the carpenters union? Longshoremen? :confused:
We call ourselves brothers yet we can't wait to stick a knife in the back of the guy ahead us. As individuals we run our life as we see fit yet others (younger) tell us how we should have ran it so they could have our position regardless of whether or not we actually love what we're doing. Unbelievable.
bpp :ugh:

[wulfend]

I have been surprised at the venom in many pilots responses to the new age limit. We are now all working under the same rules, just as we all worked under the same rules when 60 was the retirement age.
There seem to be accusations of betrayal directed toward political parties, unions, "geezers" and anyone else they may think of without considering that ultimately this is the law and we will all live under it as equals.
It will cause inconvenience to some, but I think when we consider what is just for all it becomes apparent that being forced into retirement at 60 has never been fair. Yet we lived under that rule for almost half a century.
There is no question that this has always been a tough business, and it hasn't gotten any easier and probably won't get easier in the future. Being in the right place at the right time has often been more important than many of the skills we have worked so hard to attain.

[Huck]

The sad thing is, for ~40 years the Age 65 idea would have made everyone gag - senior airline pilots were incredibly well paid, with great schedules and awesome pensions. It was just greed and self-centeredness to want to stay past 60.

But now, the mighty have fallen. According to the AA openers, major airline pay is down 50% in real dollars since 1992. Pensions are extinct. Schedules are "optimized." Working past 60 is a financial requirement for more and more pilots.

My uncle did 20 years at UAL. He retired and gets ~$30,000 a year pension. He's flying Citations to make up the difference, at the age of 66.

So... my career took a big wallop, but there's some righteous guys and gals out there who won't have to push buggies at Walmart, at least for 5 more years.

"Keep on the sunny side....."