Comair salary negotiations?

[James130]

Hey Boys. Whats the feeling about the proposal?

[Placido]

Friends,

Stand together, they are testing you guys!

Either that or they're looking for a mass exodus!

Well, come play in the sandpit if you get fed up.........

[Avi8tor]

Whats on table? Knowing Comair, not alot.

There will be lotsa Airlink guys looking to join comair. :}

[flyboy7]

It is very disappointing, but I am not surprised. It appears that management has either misjudged the situation or they are using very bold tactics. The DFO is trying desperately to improve the situation by making changes to the fleet manager position:ouch:, quite positive though. Wait and see, be patient. :confused:

[BARMAN]

Airlink boys are better off at Link !!!:hmm:

[Q4NVS]

...And SAX is Recruiting !!

;)

[TwinJock]

7%!:\

Comair is in a dilemma! The "career" drivers at Comair will be laughing all the way to the bank, as they have no desire to leave Comair, and any increase to them is a bonus. BUT, to keep the others is going to take much, much more than 7%.

Try the sandpit trick - start paying per hour as well and all the posts about flying too much will disappear!

[Q4NVS]

That is interesting...:eek:

Considering that the October 2006 to October 2007 year-on-year CPI was already and officially pegged at 7.9%

For similar period the CPIX was pegged at 7.3% (but CPIX excludes Interest Rates on Bonds - we all know what these are...:\)

:=

[777Contrail]

What did CPA ask for?

Had a mail the other evening with details from the DFO's letter to the pilots but nothing about what was asked for and what was offered.

I don't believe the 7% story, someone must be pulling our chains!

Surely both their management and the pilots (be they "career" driver or otherwise) must realise that if they want to stay operational they will have to offer pilots from the other SA airlines an incentive to go to Comair? How will they draw them?

Quick command?

New aircraft?

New types?

Working conditions?

Career progresion (longhaul)?

Remuneration?

Out of those you have to offer at least 3 to draw new pilots. Those you choose will then in turn cause a pilot to stay for a longer or shorter term.

eg. Quick command on a new aircraft with a move onto long haul will surely draw pilots. But only for the short term if remuneration and working conditions aren't right.

Comair, at this stage will have to go for the quick command, remuneration and working conditions package. That will draw and keep people for the short to medium term, then follow that up with career progresion and new types, which will solve the longer term. New aircraft will not be on the cards (I'm talking post 2006 models here).

They will be competing for drivers with ALL the local airlines since they will all be loosing pilots to the ME, Europe, Far east and soon Australia as well.

Hope it will get solved the right way...............................

[King Red]

At 7% increase next year, comair can count on my exit plan along with the 15 odd others going for interview in Jan/Feb. Plenty of jobs out there, more pay, less work. Will see the family more even if on contract.

Hope my mates will follow.

Comair Golf day in the sandpit me thinks.

[Shrike200]

Yeah, you can join the ex-Nationwiders in the Sandpit and commiserate on the useless companies back in SA! ;)

No wonder the word is being spread amongst Nationwide crew to give Comair a call - other companies must love Nationwide, they know that at least they don't treat their crew as badly as VB does, so there's always somebody to pillage crew from!

[King Red]

LETS STRIKE.

Christmas time is perfect. Loss of revenue should give an indication of how much the flight crew are worth. Next years profits may not be

[King Red]

Next years profits may not be that great. Shareholders may start taking and interest in the survival of their equity.:ugh:

[line-driver]

If the call to industrial action slip appears, I wonder how many will do so, or just sucumb and grumpily carry on being slave-sheep again.

[Placido]

Work to rule is a far better option.

You don't need a strike vote, you don't need to give notice...............

You simply take legal fuel and divert at the first sign of holding.

You work your roster. No off day work, no FDP extentions, no rest reductions. Combine this with no visual approaches and you'll soon have them begging for your proposal.

O, and if you have a cough or sneeze or feel tired, just phone in sick - even if you're on a lay over away from base!

Good luck!

[777Contrail]

That implies a VERY high level of pilot co-operation, without any legal backup if you overstep the line.

Management can then also employ to rule, if you step out of line in any way you're going to get hammered..................

[REAL ORCA]

:confused:.......I think we all hope that sanity will prevail before the industrial action card is played!:eek:

[B?]

I think we all hope that sanity will prevail before the industrial action card is played!

I also hope management come to their senses!!!!:rolleyes:

[line-driver]

With the total lack of crew to keep the tattered schedule in some form of running operations, the cockpit crew could easily afford to go the "work to rule" method and there would be no repercussions, unless of course the MD's,CEO's etc are prepared to cancel hand fulls of flights and take a serious cut in their personal bonuses, then only should the pilots should watch their backs.

I think the Pilots actually have a winning hand with management, they just don't realize it, or are scared and not prepared to use this advantage, and would rather play the submissive kind, but you can only push them so far and the bubble will burst.

[Romeo E.T.]

Placido wroteWork to rule is a far better option.

You don't need a strike vote, you don't need to give notice...............

You simply take legal fuel and divert at the first sign of holding.

You work your roster. No off day work, no FDP extentions, no rest reductions. Combine this with no visual approaches and you'll soon have them begging for your proposal.

O, and if you have a cough or sneeze or feel tired, just phone in sick - even if you're on a lay over away from base!

Good luck!

The letter from the FltOpsMngr basically asked for all to be professional and if necessary to apply all the rules as required ie FDP, no exceedences, fuel decisions re alternates and WX etc..and that management would ie FltOps would back up the pilots in their decision ...but...as 777Contrail put it Management can then also employ to rule, if you step out of line in any way you're going to get hammered.................. we have to carefull that we have our facts and figures straight....

but line-driver also has a point about the lack of crew etc etc and that their is defenitely a win situation for the pilots at hand unless a down-scalling is on the cards.....I don't think so.

[REAL ORCA]

I also hope management come to their senses!!!!

That is what I meant!

[777Contrail]

In the end supply and demand will always dictate the price of any commodity.

The question is, how far will you be able to push your hand before your bluff's called?

And when your bluff is called, what will you hold?

Or will you simply.........fold?


Airline management must realise that while they can learn from the past, the past does not hold the key to the future. What happened before does not dictate the way things will be.

The market has changed.

In the past the SA Airforce, contract pilots, Airlink, SAX and Nationwide were a vast pool of pilots to be used when you need a couple of drivers.

Not anymore.

Soon your hand will be called.

[TwinJock]

flyboy7


The DFO is trying desperately to improve the situation by making changes to the fleet manager position, quite positive though. Wait and see, be patient


Changing the fleet manager position? More gen please! Don't tell me GK is going to be a line driver!

[Placido]

Did the CiC Pilot's Rosters give 24hrs notice?

Who's doing the rosters?

[flyboy7]

The Manager Fleet has been promoted sideways to a new position called Planning, Stats, Pots and pans. The Head of Safety (one person department) will act as Fleet manager until a suitable replacement is found. The fleet captains will now run the rosters themselves.

[beechbum]

The Manager Fleet has been promoted sideways to a new position called Planning, Stats, Pots and pans]
Oooops!!!!:eek::eek:
The fleet captains will now run the rosters themselves
Here is chaos in the making......................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[line-driver]

Here is chaos in the making......................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Has already happened...beechbum you left the sinking ship in time, chaos in trying to get a roster to run at this stage, and the people now going to do it are only able to try, and this between an active flying duty as well, ie no hands on for hourly running problems, but I can see lots of problems coming this way, especially if more captain resignations takes place.

[line-driver]

and a birdie tod me that every single pilot voted NO, with regard to managements offer, first step of the pilots standing toegether fully behind CPA.

and the next step is ??:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[JvJ]

Beechbum and co.

U guys would have been senior well paid Captains with Link by now if you did not go for the low paying jet jobs with cumair etc.

Link is the future of SA aviation, watch this space...

[Placido]

JvJ,

(if it's realy you....) You're a ******.

If it's not you......then you & JvJ are both wankers!

[beechbum]

And who said I was at Airlink JvJ????????
But I hear there is no career path there so why would anyone want to stay? Have a look at the numbers jumping ship and you might just realise!
Quite honestly I think you're just winding us all up......as the other thread so puts it!
Go and mow the lawn or clean the pool .....oh sorry...no pools or lawn in Hillbrow!

[TwinJock]

The Manager Fleet has been promoted sideways to a new position called Planning, Stats, Pots and pans.


That is what is job was before - and he steeked the cat!!!

Typical - taking 2 senior captains and using them to do the job of one roster clerk - that makes real financial sense! Sometimes the idiocy factor amazes me!

Oh, by the way. Their are many drivers at Comair who are HAPPY with the current situation - 7%, flying lots, no families to interfere with their flying etc.

[Romeo E.T.]

Oh, by the way. Their are many drivers at Comair who are HAPPY with the current situation - 7%, flying lots, no families to interfere with their flying etc.

only if you are on the verge of divorce..then again the current situation actually has led to marital issues and wouldn't be surprised if more to come...family life can only take so much strain and punishment....when the "breadwinner" is never home to spend his hard earned "peanuts"

[nugpot]

Just for interest - how much are the Comair guys flying?

Hours?
Days on duty?
Days off?

[flyboy7]

Average hours between 75 and 95 monthly(no exceedance paid). The problem at the moment is that the roster changes so often, you cannot plan your life. Very few pilots are now willing to give up an OFF day to help out. It can only get better.:*

[line-driver]

Any truth to the rumor of another 11 resignations tendered at the end of December:ooh::ooh:

[newcrew]

how many resigned / left in 2007?

[Placido]

My mates tel me Comair's doing 25-30% pilot turnover p/a.

That will make about 5 per month ''normal''.

With Jet* looking at Saffers to man their new 320/21's and 787's..........I guess the exodus has only just started.....

[Q4NVS]

Average hours between 75 and 95 monthly(no exceedance paid).

If it's any consolation...I did 881 Hours for the 12 months of 2007.
(...And loved every minute of it...)

;)

[i-Robot]

Was flying Cape Town - Durbs this morning...noticed:

* Interlink flying on a Comair callsign (in a really messed up fluffy...would make Nationwide jealous!).

* Dutch wet lease company flying a 737-400 on a Comair callsign.

Any comments?

[777Contrail]

I think the Dutch one is a 738.

Kulula is supposed to be a LCC.

Wet leasing with crew must make lots of sense...............

[777Contrail]

Anyway, how are the guys holding out at MN?

Have they decided to take the 7% or will they hold out for 7,5%?!:}

Sadly, like always, the guys & gals at Comair will probably vote with their feet.:{

But then, there are more options opening up every day:D:D:D

[Romeo E.T.]

ZS-OLC...used to be a BA aerie, leased back from Interlink to help out during the transition from MD to all B737 fleet, and all the extra Kulula flights this xmas/new-year season....only the elite of the elite got leave or Xmas/new-year off...the rest had to fly and fly and fly and fly.

The dutch aerie helped ease the murderous load ever so slightly.

Salary negotiations on hold due to the elite closed shop and went on holiday, but every-one voted NO on the 7% issue.

[TwinJock]

Salary negotiations on hold due to the elite closed shop and went on holiday

Nero is on holiday while Rome is burning! Sounds familiar.

The "heavies" took a break in their coastal homes (holiday homes to us plebs) spending their big bonuses - problem, what problem!

[777Contrail]

Holiday's over...................

Any news?

How are you holding out Romeo E T?

[Romeo E.T.]

777Contrail Holiday's over...................

Any news?

How are you holding out Romeo E T?

no news as yet.

Surviving.......only surviving

[line-driver]

and its back to business as usual, management not prepared to make a counter offer until CPA makes a first move of a revised offer, is CPA backing off on a fair demand, the answers will follow within the next week or so.:hmm:, will management soften or will they play the usual stuck record card of trading conditions and yields and fuel price and investors and and and:*:* and lets not forget that the directors slipped out of the top 100 in terms of directors renumeration in SA:=:=

The next week or two are going to be interesting.

[Romeo E.T.]

Well done CPA, well done MN, well done members.........no more need to be said.....:D:D:D:D

[Rotates Lowly]

Well done to all involved. Good sense prevailed in the end.

[Beechdrivr]

Hi

Would you mind telling us how it all panned out in the end? Did you guys get what you asked for?

Safe Flying BD:ok:

[REAL ORCA]

Did you guys get what you asked for?

Yes indeed. Hats off to everybody that was involved in the negotiations!:D:ok:

[Romeo E.T.]

and off course well done to the new chairman.............what fine teeth you have:D:D:D

[Goldfish Jack]

hey well done guys

Hope the pilots dont forget to thank the chairman of CPA - he did a sterling job and deserves some recognition

[LittleMo]

What was the final outcome in terms of % increase?

[Placido]

Well done guys & gals!

MS, you're the man!

Y'all know that this means war though! Don't ya!?

MN gives more, SAX shoots back, Link comes to the party, SAA up the stakes.

Once an airline decides to pay more to keep their pilots, they've started down a road that leads to even higher pay. Gotta love the law of supply&demand!

[Beechdrivr]

Can anyone say if that percentage increase is across the board or if it's dependant on what category you fall under within the company?

Safe flying BD:ok:

[Romeo E.T.]

Can anyone say if that percentage increase is across the board or if it's dependant on what category you fall under within the company?


different scales for F/O, SFO and Capt

[777Contrail]

Romeo E.T., what about living conditions? Rosters, time off etc.?

Any better or still the SOS?

(How are the cats?)

[Romeo E.T.]

Romeo E.T., what about living conditions? Rosters, time off etc.?

Any better or still the SOS?

(How are the cats?)

flat out for Captains....but the department is seriously trying to catch up now...directive given to re-balance urgently given......will probably take a few months and this salary increase will go some way to stem the outflow and increase the "will".....time will tell....still many awaiting a call from EK and Ausie.....

Fat and happy cats.

[TwinJock]

What was the offer accepted by CPA?:ok:

[line-driver]

What was the offer accepted by CPA?exactly what was asked for or there about.

[flyboy7]

The board approved the pilots demand - fully. Everybody happy - things are looking up again.:D:)

[Q4NVS]

And "now" its a Big Secret what they asked for...Guess someone sneaked a Confidentiality Clause in there...:ouch:

Anyways, well done CPA!
(That money will go some distance towards a Generator and additional ADT Beams in the garden)

[line-driver]

increases roughly 7% above equivalent post/position of all the private/non-govt sponsored airlines, thus SAA/SAX/Mango not in the equation, as the taxpayer pays their salary.

This should bring Comair up again in the stakes of preferred private airline to fly for, now they need to work on the pilot numbers, halt the resignation floods, and re-instill patriotism from the pilot pool, still a long road ahead, but this is a good start.

[TwinJock]

Line-Driver

increases roughly 7% above equivalent post/position of all the private/non-govt sponsored airlines, thus SAA/SAX/Mango not in the equation, as the taxpayer pays their salary.



Not much of a bargain if you aim to be better paid than Nationwide and 1-Time! If SAX and Mango are better paid, then management have done you over.

If what you say is correct, it is time to dust the cv's again!

[beechbum]

I heard SFO's/FO's gained a 27% increase and Captains 19%........but thats what I heard not what I saw!

[line-driver]

Beechbum, your sources are just over 2% optimistic, would have been nice though.

[beechbum]

So line driver.....then it's 25 and 17% respectively then? If I read your post correctly. Not bad though after all thats has gone on in the last few years!
Well done if thats the case.....the guys and gals deserve it!
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[line-driver]

So line driver.....then it's 25 and 17% respectively then? If I read your post correctly. Not bad though after all thats has gone on in the last few years!
Well done if thats the case.....the guys and gals deserve it!

thats the cash bottom line ,although some F/O scales are a lot more confusing for jnr F/O, senior F/o etc, but there even more complicated demands w.r.t. lifestyle issues that were also agreed to, how the implementation with the current shortage will materialize is any-ones guess, its a big work in progress situation, and the rostering head scratching is in full swing to try and comply with the new agreement, but I think some of the drivers who see Comair as a career will now be slightly more willing to make accommodations to help through this tough time.

[Mark J B]

Hi Line-Driver.
Can you confirm that the settlement was effective 1 Jan 08? Is so, comair owes me some money and I need to follow it up. Thanks. MJB

[Placido]

Mark, good luck trying to get ANYTHING out of the family.........

Yes, it is a backdated agreement.

Go get them!

[dickyd737]

Hey Boorman, you were somehow always one of the whiners, never one to try to be part of the solution, now you want some of the loot, thats a bit cheeky dont you think, enjoy wherever you are now, they dont deserve you, your job will never make you happy, that you have to do yourself.

[dickyd737]

:ok:The overall package is very fair, it includes a percentage as mentioned, a gauranteed 13th cheque, exceedance pay, (for flight hours and duty hours), more off days per month, modification of the leave rules (requested off days may follow or precede leave, no leave once approved may be cancelled without pilots permission), very improved rostering rules, increase in s+t, to mention but a few. By the way the average used to determine the national pay average for a pilot with a certain experience, ie captain 8 years, or FO 5 years, does include SAX, SAA and Mango salaries.
Bring your CV's guys and gals, its a great deal, prob best package in SA with all the benifits and perks.
Management really came to the party, you cannot believe how upbeat the mood is again, like old times, Comair is back!

[777Contrail]

Good for you! Hope you guys enjoy it, you certainly deserve it!

So all is great after a 25% increase!?

O, sorry not 25% for all............

See the good old SA Rand slipped 30% this year, fuel went up by what? 15%, 20% so far? Bond rates jumped by 25% over the last 12 months.

How much more will you be paying for rates&taxes by this time next year?

Schooling, security etc. etc.

This increase hardly put you back to where you should have been 3 years ago.

Now Dick, you don't mind if I call you Dick?

Why climb into Mark? He is owed money fair & square.

Talk about whining!

There's something in your own eye mate.....................

[Goldfish Jack]

Still one of the cheapest places around to live! Every place has its problems dont deny that but we still have a great quality of life.

Sitting here typing this with the front door open, no fence around the house and feeling very safe - there are places like that in SA - u just got to know where to find them.

[Placido]

Goldfish Jack, maybe in the shadow of the flat mountain, but not up north surely!?

Just ask the 50 000 women raped last year (some as young as 6 y.o.), or the 18 000 people murdered......

Viva Zumabwe, Viva!

[Mark J B]

Howzit Dicky. A bit touchy I see. As already mentioned, I earned that money fair and square due to the fact that I was employed by Comair when the settlement comes into effect. Not to mention the 3.5 years I worked for Comair on a below par salary. As for the winging bit, I think we all did our fair bit of winging and with good cause, hence the dramatic increase. To set the record straight, I didn't leave Comair because of money only. I was very happy at Comair but was nolonger prepared to run the gauntlet with my family anymore. SA will always be home, just a pity it is not a safe enough environment to raise a family anymore.:(

[dickyd737]

OK Mark, point taken, just irritates me that the bad mouthing has not stopped yet, not by yourself, in general, we got the increase. As far as salary is concerned, its not world class, but certainly is not bad either, especially for the guys who are prepared to wait for command. Inflation is a worldwide thing luckily or unluckily, petrol is cheap in the middle east, everything else is cheap here, game farms, coastal property, wine, steak, etc etc.
Security is a hassle, not as bad where i live, i moved away from GP 2 years ago.
Point is we all have a choice, and i would rather not live in the desert.
So, good luck with your back pay. I would not be too hopeful.

And 777, you hail from, ????? you sound like an aussie, or a discontented S African, dont worry, rugby is just a game.:rolleyes:

[dickyd737]

There's something in your own eye mate.....................

Mate, Crew member on a ship, or loose term for friend.

I am neither of those.

And I dont mind you calling me Dick, If you think you were needling me, no not really. what do your mates call you for short CONT?

[beechbum]

Hey dicky.....
Take a breather MATE......!!!!! after all everyone here is entitled to his/her opinion and to attack someone personally only lowers yourself chap no one else.I for one thought you were quite a reasonable fella but your attack on MJB and others makes me wonder whats biting you....kick the Jack Russels into touch if they're gnawing at your ankles!!! But seriously though keep the naming of others off the forum thats what its here for......post anonymously... not so DickyD........!!!
Anyway nuff said........! Like it don't like it!

[dickyd737]

Am i coming over a bit too strong then, ok i will tone it down then, its just jest though, I am sure 777 will get it, sounds like he has a sense of humour,:O not meant personally at all, and i agree with your saying that everyone is entitled to their opinion, thats why i raised mine, and you yours etc.
you can sit down again Beechie old boy. You missing the MD's yet, 1 more week for me.
Suppose all things come to an end hey.:oh:

[Romeo E.T.]

Beechie old boy. You missing the MD's yet,

He never flew the MD.........DickyD, I think you have miss-identified this chap, and 777Contrail flew for Comair a while ago, at the height of the "trauma";););)

[777Contrail]

Jawohl!

Wie gehst du, mein herr?

(Die Rechtschreibung entschuldigen)

[dickyd737]

S..t, messed that up didnt i, my apologies, wasnt meant personally, just stirring a bit, would make a good crm topic no?
anyway, happy landings says i with my tail between my legs!:uhoh:

[Romeo E.T.]

Dickyd....enjoy your last few days on the green cucmber....:):)

[dickyd737]

I think today was it, jnb-grj-jnb, made it back in 1hr 18. (flight time), had very good tail winds. Was a nice plane to fly, real basic, but fun and forgiving.:ok: