EASA? What a joke!

[S-Works]

Rubbish, you only have to bee airborne on an IMC day to realise how few people really use the IMC as IFR traffic.

[BEagle]

englishal, no longer is the IMCR available as a 'freebie' to people holding IRs on MPAs - the CAA did away with that a year or so ago.

In 2004, the rule was:

The holder of a JAR-FCL professional aeroplane
licence with a valid multi-pilot IR(A) is not
automatically entitled to fly using the privileges of
an IMC Rating in single-pilot aeroplanes. They will
be required to obtain a separate IMC Rating
endorsement on the basis of their most recent
multi pilot IR proficiency check or skill test. In this
case, the IMC Rating will be valid for a period of 25
months from the date of the IR(A) skill test and will
not need to be revalidated if the IR remains valid. If
the IR(A) lapses an IMC revalidation flight test is
required.

However, in 2005 this was changed (with neither consultation nor publicity) to:

The holder of a JAR-FCL professional aeroplane
licence with a valid multi-pilot IR(A) is not automatically
entitled to fly using the privileges of an IMC Rating in
single-pilot aeroplanes. They will be required to pass a
IMC Flight Test and apply to PLD for a separate IMC
Rating endorsement.

So, nowadays the airliner driver who wants to do a little instructing on his/her occasional day off - including the ability to teach in 'VFR above cloud' conditions must, as a holders have any single pilot IMC privileges.

The CAA introduced this without any RIA. I was in the course of fighting it - until a colleague went and failed his IMC test....:rolleyes: His day job was a BA jet captain. So I no longer had any real case....:hmm:

[DFC]

You might also like to consider the position of an airline pilot who holds a Multi Crew MEIR, who wants single pilot IFR privlidges when flying their light aircraft. Again an IMC rating may make more sense to them.

No it does not make sense to anyone I know to spend money obtaining and maintaining a rating that provides limited IFR privileges with higher minima when for the same money, one can revalidate a single pilot IR and not be so restricted.

However, I stand by my point that most profesional airline pilots who fly for pleasure on their days off don't want the hassle of IFR and simply want to waft arround or do some aeros or something else recreational.

BEagle has pointed out that in the UK, there is the question of pilots being limited by the local laws to flying in sight of the surface and thus an ATPL could be so limited in regard to instruction flights however, if that restriction was removed........as it will be along with the 10Km SVFR requirement and the 3Km class G minima, one big reason for having the rating disapears.

Regards,

DFC

[englishal]

Interesting Beagle.....:(

That is a bit pointless really, anyone with an ATPL who has any sort of IR should be capable of flying "IMC".....It is odd that other countries don't have a MPIR - in IR is an IR in many places......

[Fuji Abound]

However, I stand by my point that most profesional airline pilots who fly for pleasure on their days off don't want the hassle of IFR and simply want to waft arround or do some aeros or something else recreational.

I know of a number for who that is certainly not true. Not necessarily because the thrust of what you say is incorrect, but often to get anywhere when you want to may involve some IFR. For example I know of two commercial pilots who enjoy going to fly ins for their type of aircraft around the country and in Europe.

I was interested how one managed it given that he had mentioned some time before his SEP IR had lapsed many years earlier - hmm he said, just before departing through a frontal system with the cloud on the deck, I will just have to stay clear of the cloud I suppose.

[dublinpilot]

No it does not make sense to anyone I know to spend money obtaining and maintaining a rating that provides limited IFR privileges with higher minima when for the same money, one can revalidate a single pilot IR and not be so restricted.

It's most certainly not the same money. Even if the test fees are the same, their SPIR will have to be renewed annually, while the IMCR will be renewed only half as often.

dp

[DFC]

Dublin Pilot,

If you knew the system you would see that the 25 month renewal period is simply a red herring.

If I have an IMC rating and an MEP rating, I must complete the MEP renewal every year and I must also complete the IMC renewal every 2 years.

If I have a SPIR, I replace the MEP renewal with a combined SPIR/MEP renewal which takes the same time and thus I save the IMC test fee every second year.

If I am only flying SEP then I combine the IR renewal with the SEP revalidation requirements and it costs no more.

For a person who has held an SPIR rating within the past 5 years it does not make sense to downgrade to the IMC because one is so restricted by the rating.

----------

Fuji,

I am sure that they did so as well.

Idiots who risk their career by reckless flying in their spare time are very much in the minority of professional pilots.

Regards,

DFC

[dublinpilot]

If you knew the system you would see that the 25 month renewal period is simply a red herring.

If I have an IMC rating and an MEP rating, I must complete the MEP renewal every year and I must also complete the IMC renewal every 2 years.


DFC,

You are not thinking this through.

If our airline pilot is renewing his MEP, he will be doing it as part of a multicrew, and hence renewing his multi pilot IR. Hence he will need a seperate renewal for his single pilot IR, which is what lead us to suggesting the IMCR would suit him better in the first place! Keep up! ;)

dp

[S-Works]

DP.

Sorry mate but DFC is correct you are not.

MEP = Multi Engine Piston, how do you think an MEP rating is renewed as part of a multi crew renewal?

I renew my SPA-ME-IR each year and my MEP as a single flight test. My IMCR is also signed off at the same time just for legacy sake.

[Contacttower]

If you knew the system you would see that the 25 month renewal period is simply a red herring.



The whole issue of making a European IMC rating available for ATPL holders is a bit of a red herring, they could be included just for the sake of completeness...but they need not be if DFC doesn't approve...;)

[BEagle]

Perhaps the confusion is between MPA and MEP?

I remind you all again - if you are an airliner driver with a JAR-FCL ATPL, then nowadays you have no instrument privileges whatsoever on single pilot aircraft unless you also hold either a Single Pilot IR or an IMC Rating.

The latter is very much cheaper than the former!

[DFC]

I would not agree that the latter is cheaper.

Besides the renewal test costs being the same I also make allowance for the fact that if you allow the SPIR lapse, there is mandatory training requirements and that makes it very expensive to get it back in the future.

Keeping the MPIR and/or the IMCR valid does not get round that requirement.

My friend paid a lot of money to get their SPIR back even though they were current MPIR and current instrument flying. The Authority specified (as they can) a minimum of 4 hours MEP SPIR training...........a total waste of time and money but those were the requirements.

The CAA tried some years back to separate recreational and professional flying by saying that pilots who hold a CPL or ATPL would also have to get a PPL in order to have PPL privileges. It did not go down well then and I can't see much evidence of a shift in professional pilot opinion.

Regards,

DFC

[dublinpilot]

MEP = Multi Engine Piston, how do you think an MEP rating is renewed as part of a multi crew renewal?

I renew my SPA-ME-IR each year and my MEP as a single flight test. My IMCR is also signed off at the same time just for legacy sake.

Bose, I think where your assumptions and mine differ, is that you are assumming the airline pilot wishes to have a single pilot mutli rating, while I'm assuming they want to fly SEP's.

In my case they would be renewing their Mulit pilot IR and MEP in one go. Neither of which would sort them out for single pilot IR.

dp

[DFC]

In my case they would be renewing their Mulit pilot IR and MEP in one go

Is there anyone still flying a DC6 or similar for a living these days?

I suppose there are the Atlantic pilots?


Even for night flight in the UK, the pilot has to complete at least one take-off and landing at night in the last 3 months before carrying passengers. Hard to do over the Summer period. The IR absolves them from that requirement.

Thus if I am heading back home from whereever in late Spetember and leave it a bit late so that the weather will clear, I do not have to worry that I have not flown this SEP at night for 6 months while loading my friends because I can fly at night with passengers on the basis of my SPIR. You can not do that with an IMC rating.

You also forget that I can renew my SPIR every second year in the FNPT2. I can not do that for the IMC rating which must be completed in the aircraft. Very easy to forward fast the sim........not possible in the aircraft.

There are very few poorly paid JAR-ATPL holders. i.e. not the ones who have never flown more than a C150 all their "career". If they can't afford the SPIR then they will be moving job and probably will not be paying to go flying in their recreational time.

Regards,

DFC

[S-Works]

Bose, I think where your assumptions and mine differ, is that you are assumming the airline pilot wishes to have a single pilot mutli rating, while I'm assuming they want to fly SEP's.

In my case they would be renewing their Mulit pilot IR and MEP in one go. Neither of which would sort them out for single pilot IR.

dp

Sorry mate you still have it wrong. The number of PISTON aircraft that require two crew these days is so small I could count on a finger (or 2 at most). Multi pilot IR's are renewed only on the type being flown which is subject to a type rating.

An MEP rating has is renewed annually by test. I renew mine at the same time as my IR.

You can't renew an MEP while renewing a multi crew IR unless that is a multi crew MEP and as DFC points out the only people flying those these days are Atlantic and its only a couple of them.

[dublinpilot]

Surely an airline pilot flying his 737, renews his type rating and his Multi pilot Me IR at the same time in his 737 or 737 sim?

That would satisfy his work requirements, but give him no single engine IR privlidges. :confused:

[englishal]

In the rest of the world DP, that would make perfect sense.

Unfortunately we're talking JAR and EASA here.......

[Pudnucker]

Stellair,

Your comments regarding the NPPL are utter rubbish:

"The 'Brevet de base' is no different to an NPPL! They are both woefully insignificant qualifications to be flying a kite nevermind an aircraft with passengers on board."

The Brevet de base and NPPL are totally and utterly different. I've converted from an NPPL to PPL recently. When training for the original PPL my instructor asked me 90% of the way through the training which licence I was going for. The exams are the same, the amount of hours are virtually the same and the a/c i trained in are identical. I flew 300 hrs on my NPPL and every weekend - I know PPLs with less hours who fly so infrequently they have to refrsh with an instructor before a long distance trip - who would you rather send your daughter up with? The only difference training I needed was radio nav.

Just after I qualified with the original NPPL i flew up to scotland for a couple of weeks - a fab trip. During this 3 a/c were lost - all "full" PPL's and cause for 2 of these were CFIT. The logic in your statement is flawed.

I agree with the other posts, EASA is already a dinosaur and is a real threat to our wonderful sport!