Importing vintage aircraft from the USA

[Mikehotel152]

A friend of mine and I are quite interested in buying something like an old Cessna 140 taildragger. A very rare aircraft in the UK. There are some beauties for sale in the States and I was wondering:-

How much does it cost to get one brought over to the UK in a crate? Is CAA registration and inspection expensive? Surely you don't pay VAT on 60 year old aircraft? Is it a bonkers idea buying such an aircraft, bearing in mind it's age?

Many thanks for any thoughts :)

[enginear]

i bought a 120 from a guy out of a container last year, he brought it back from the states in 2000 and never flew it here, have well over 100 hours on it now and had very little problems with it. burn about 4 to 4.5 gal per hour. i operate it on N reg i am an A+P and it does away with all the BS. the VAT will be small considering what you are going to pay so you will still be in front. cannot understand whay there are not more of them over this side one thing the do need is a little longer runway than you would expect

[rtl_flyer]

Here are some costs and things plan/think about:
Cost for you visiting USA and viewing aircraft.
If CofA type (rather than onto PFA permit) you need export CofA.
20ft Container from somewhere like Phoenix to your door in Hampshire £3750 - price can only be given 30 days before hand due to oil price changes. Also depends on port and route. Will take approx 4 weeks.
Materials (wood, bindings/straps, shrink/bubble wrap) and tools to pack container depending upon condition of aircraft. (All starts to add up) Remember you are paying for container so may be worth packing in more than just aircraft - but keep it to same goods (eg aircraft goods/parts) or it could complicate your customs clearance.
VAT is payable on invoice price of aircraft (cannot remember if you pay VAT shipping - 99% think you do)
Variable costs like delivery lorry that can drop container on floor add £150-300 ish.
INSURANCE. Read the small print on your shipping insurance (Traffords can do a policy) as it's complicated. Just make sure you know what you are and are not covered for etc - like you would taking out any policy.
BANKING. If you are in the US you will not be able to call your bank to transfer more than £10'000. You have to be in the bank - in the UK :ugh: So plan ahead and have somebody on the ground in the UK who knows what to do when! Plan 3-5 days for transfer.
Remember MODS in the USA may not be cleared here. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
Good luck, and have fun
Tim.

[SlipSlider]

MH152 .... you (will shortly) have a pm.
Slip

[Lembrado]

Hey Mike,


Who is this friend of yours - he must be crazy!


L.

[SkyHawk-N]

I'd be very careful importing a Cessna 140 if you intend to put it on the G-Reg. Most have been upgraded with parts that will not be approved by the CAA. What starts off looking like a real bargain will end up costing a lot of money.

[enginear]

what is wrong leaving it on N reg, register to a trustee and once all the 337 are in place and the paper work stacks up on the initial pre buy you are away. you get an IA once a year to do an annual and that it. i do my own maintenance and i reckon i fly my 120 for about 25 euro an hour (have STC for MOGAS). i looked at putting it in a european reg and got the run around, with all the BS comming out of EASA the N reg is the only way to go and there is no issue with licences once its operated privately

[EchoMike]

A few other items on shipping.

1) According to COGSA, the value of one "parcel" on a ship is a max of $500. This means if your container goes over the side, you get a check for $500. Game over. Make sure you get insurance! This applies to larger items, too - a locomotive is considered "one parcel", so here's $500 (and it made such a huge splash!)

2) Wood used in packing for international shipments may have to be marked as fumigated. This is shown by branding - it has some special symbols and information. You might do best by obtaining pre-fumigated shipping pallets and knocking them apart for your wood. Lumber yard wood doesn't qualify for this. Customs may reject the shipment (deny entry) and send it back to where it came from - guess who pays?

3) Second the motion of keeping the container contents limited to aircraft and aircraft parts only. I know someone (not "heard of someone") who imported an airplane to the USA, used toilet paper rolls to cushion some spare parts in shipment. The customs inspector (new hire, evidently a TSA reject) claimed he was trying to import household goods . . .

Best Regards,

Echo Mike

[stickandrudderman]

Did he tell him that the toilet rolls were actually for dealing with all the BS that he was expecting to have to deal with here in the UK?:rolleyes:

[IFMU]

I'd be very careful importing a Cessna 140 if you intend to put it on the G-Reg. Most have been upgraded with parts that will not be approved by the CAA. What starts off looking like a real bargain will end up costing a lot of money.

What parts? I belong to a club with a 1946 C140, it's pretty much all stock. It does have metallized wings. It would seem that if you can certify a taildragger C152 over there that a C140 should be a snap. If you are really hot on the C140, I would recommend joining the C120-140 association. Find it at http://www.cessna120-140.org/. A wealth of information there.

A C140 is a great little airplane. The one issue it has is poor useful load, especially if it is metalized.

-- IFMU

[IFMU]

How about this one, already imported:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cessna-140-1948_W0QQitemZ320192356243QQihZ011QQcategoryZ63677QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

G-BUHO Cessna 140, Selling with or without certificate of airworthiness add £1200 to final bid if you require certificate The aircraft is in good flying condition engine run regularly, aircraft hangered could be flown to near destination on a CAA permit. Radio VOR and Transponder fitted. Airframe hours 2929. Engine hours 996. Available to view :- www.blackpoolaircentre.com or Blackpool Airport, United Kingdom.

[SkyHawk-N]

What parts?

It can be anything from modern harnesses, sun visors, spin on oil filters, new interiors, avionics, ELT, beacons, intercoms, auto fuel, wheel extenders, whatever is not approved or hasn't the right supporting paperwork.

[Mikehotel152]

Thanks very much everyone for the replies. I'm just on my way to a family lunch, but will get back to you all properly tomorrow.:ok:

[SlipSlider]

MH152 you have another PM ...

but to answer your question:
........60 year old aircraft? Is it a bonkers idea buying such an aircraft, bearing in mind it's age?

Absolutely not! Just ask the many satisfied owners of Aeroncas, Luscombes, Cubs, Taylorcraft etc etc which are all around 60 years of age, some even older. My own Aeronca Champ is 1946 vintage, with just very basic fitted instruments plus a Garmin 196, and I usually manage to fly around between 40 and 60 hours a year; I know of some individuals who manage >100 hrs pa in similar vintage aeroplanes. The absolute key is to get a good one .....

As mentioned in my pm, I would recommed sourcing in UK if at all possible, and only risk the trials and tribulations of importation from the US if a suitable machine really cannot be found locally.

Slip

[IFMU]

It can be anything from modern harnesses, sun visors, spin on oil filters, new interiors, avionics, ELT, beacons, intercoms, auto fuel, wheel extenders, whatever is not approved or hasn't the right supporting paperwork.

This must not just be a vintage airplane problem then. A lot of newer classic airplanes, like the C152 and C172 from the 70's likely have updated avionics. Anything that goes on a vintage certified airplane in the USA

Our C140 has an intercom, a newer radio & Mode C transponder, shoulder harnesses, wheel extenders (which is a Cessna thing, not aftermarket), auto fuel STC (which is paperwork and stickers, nothing installed besides the stickers), and a metalized wing. All the aftermarket stuff (metalized wings, shoulder harnesses, auto fuel) has an STC associated with it, all the new radios are TSO'ed parts. It's all in the logs signed off by an A&P. This is typical in the states.

-- IFMU

[SkyHawk-N]

This must not just be a vintage airplane problem then. A lot of newer classic airplanes, like the C152 and C172 from the 70's likely have updated avionics. Anything that goes on a vintage certified airplane in the USA
Yes you're right, I'm not saying it's just a problem with the 140. My 172 would have trouble joining the G-Reg, just on it's battery alone (although this would be pretty cheap to fix). It's just the older the aircraft the more likely mods have been done to bring it more up to date, and as things wear out improvements have been made instead of just replacing like with like.
Our C140 has an intercom, a newer radio & Mode C transponder, shoulder harnesses, wheel extenders (which is a Cessna thing, not aftermarket), auto fuel STC (which is paperwork and stickers, nothing installed besides the stickers), and a metalized wing. All the aftermarket stuff (metalized wings, shoulder harnesses, auto fuel) has an STC associated with it, all the new radios are TSO'ed parts. It's all in the logs signed off by an A&P. This is typical in the states.
You just have to make sure that the paperwork is all complete and in order. ANY mod will be checked and if not 100% correct it will have to be removed, replaced or refitted. I believe the first you will know of problems is when you have de-registered from the N-Reg and BEFORE you get on the G-Reg, as this is when the CAA (or EASA?) come to inspect the aircraft.

Going back to my battery, it is a Concorde sealed battery. This has an STC & FAA-PMA approval for use on the 172, but they are still not approved (or were not two years ago) for use on G-Reg aircraft certified aircraft. This may have changed, does anyone know if this is still the case? The same was for HID lighting, approved for FAA but not for CAA.

[enginear]

to repeat my self whats wrong with the N reg

[Mikehotel152]

Fascinating stuff guys.

I am intrigued. If you can happily fly on the N-reg in the UK and Europe, what is the problem with leaving an aircraft on that reg?

I had been told you needed an FAA PPL. True or not?

[enginear]

this question all ways comes up and i can tell you in Ireland it OK to fly a N reg on a UK PPL in Ireland so i am sure it would be OK to to the same in UK. the reason i am sure of this is on the last AAIU (Irish accident report) it stated that a pilot who was flying a N reg EC120 on a UK PPLH in Ireland was properly licenced. search the AAIU website and it is one of the last entries. its only after an accident these things come a problem

[SkyHawk-N]

You can fly an N-reg in the UK with a JAA/UK licence. You need an FAA licence to fly the aircraft out of the country. Do a search on this forum and you will find plenty of information on this.

[enginear]

i think you missed my point as the pilot in question had a UK PPLH, flying a N reg machine, in Ireland. our authority be it the Air Accident Unit has said he was properly licenced. and i am sure you are aware Ireland is not in the UK

[SkyHawk-N]

I didn't miss your point, I was answering Mikehotel152's question. :ok:

[Mikehotel152]

I believe you, I believe you :)

Why did my FTO restrict use of its N-reg 182 to those holding an FAA PPL until it was on the G-reg?