ATO Philippines vs ICAO or FAA

[Eight Ball]

:\Guys,

To those coming to the Philippines and to the ones who are going overseas, I have noticed a huge difference in our licensing system compared to the ICAO or even the FAA ones. Listed below are some differences. I stand to be corrected if you think otherwise. Is it all because of the money side of things ??

1. Expiry dates

ICAO/FAA CPL licenses - no expiry dates ( it is perennial ).
(Only our Instrument rating and Class 1 medical expires every year)

ATO licenses - expires every year ??

2. Aircraft ratings

ICAO - We have a blanket cover called single or multi-engine rating.
This basically allows you to fly any SE or ME aircraft below 5700kgs with only a 1 or 2 hours of training as long as you are at least a PPL. No checkride, No EQC, no EQC exam but we have an open book(flight manual) test which can be done at the school and submitted there.

ATO - Rating per aircraft. You need 10 hrs on each type ( e.g. C152 ) and a checkride. So, that's around 11 hours so you can fly the thing PLUS an EQC exam from the Airmen Exam Board which you have to pay and an EQ Course to learn about the aircraft. Do the maths on how much you will spend on 6 SE and 3 ME types like I have. What the ???

3. Flight Instructor ratings

ICAO - You will be able to convert or validate your FI within a week.

ATO - One friend of mine took him 1 year for his CPL to get converted and another 4 months (total 16 mths) to get his FI validated after much begging and ass kissing to the ATO.


4. Instrument rating

ICAO - allowed to renew it using just a fixed base simulator
ATO - You must fly

5. ATPL subjects -

ICAO and FAA - have ground school for 7 subjects

ATO - I have not heard or seen a school that provides it but AEB seems to give exams for it. How do they prepare for it?

Also, why doesn't the Philippines have low routes for IFR tracks ? Not to mention most of the provincial runways don't have navigation aids and instrument procedures.

I thought the Philippines is part of ICAO and all of these things are standard all over the world.

Can I please have your inputs as I am really interested.

Thanks everyone

8Ball

[kapalmuks]

the philippines is a third world country & it may stay that way for another 100 years. you might be expecting too much. that is why we go abroad.

[fingus]

Mate!!!! welcome to the Philippines!!!:D

[squarecrow]

Probably tailored to make money for your Dept of Civil Aviation and Flight Training Organisation.Who pays for your DCA? Taxpayers or the pilots or both? Incidentally one case is JAA Licences and UK National which are good for 5 years now. Then you have to reapply for a new one good for another 5 years:eek:. ICAO should be designed for Professional licence holders to work in other countries fairly easily. For example You get your Lic in Phills you should be able to go to work in for example Vietnam. Ideally sit an Air Law exam and maybe a flight test like IRT for example to operate there. Sadly that is not the case.

[airlinefan]

On the differences you are totally correct? As one rocker put it "Welcome to my nightmare I hope you are going to like it I hope you feel like you belong". However, as the congress just passed the new CAAP bill (which replaces the ATO with a proper agency) - things should get better soon - but alas poor Warrick I knew him well.,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[NG ExPat]

Eight Ball, you need to become familiar withthe Chicago Convention of I believe 1950. I do not think the Phillippines was a "Signatory State." All Signatory States are obligated to accept the Licenses and Medicals from other Signatory States. However, if you are for instance coming to India, to fly Indian Registered Aircraft, the DGCA has the right to accept or deny you licenses. I learned that lesson the hard way.

If I am wrong I stand corrected. I have spent a number of hours on the telephone over the past few weeks sorting this out. You can download a complete copy of the Chicago Convention and it's Annex 1 from the ICAO Website for $35 I believe.

[jester_icarus]

8ball..


GOOD ONE!!!!...excellent subject.

I would think airlines like Cebu Pac or PAL have a liason within the company to work with the ATO office to convert potential candidate licenses.

This would make things alot easier since the airliens would greatly benefit them in the hiring process. Hate to see great potential candidates walk away because of the frustration with the ATO.

I was offered to retain a liason from a flight school to convert my lciense for $500.00 and agreed that it would only take 1 day to do all the paperwork. ???!!!! can this be true or is it too good to be true? anyone??

Im still trying to figure out how to convert an FAA ATP to be accepted byt he ATO.

Any intel PLEASE SHARE....

...thanks 8ball.... good subject for us FILAM who wants to come there and work

[kwaiyai]

The ICAO Chicago Convention is like the UN. Yes any countries in ICAO are supposed to " accept another countries Licence". In reality always seems to be redtape on conversions.In Malaysia Pilots who sat the CA6 (Atpl Nav Papers) which are the old UK National ATPL Nav's couldnt walk into UK and get a UK Licence from Gatwick (cant know anyway its JAA). Otherway round seemed to work. Thats one example of tailoring the system to make money in my opinion.:=

[Eight Ball]

Guys first of all, thanks for the responses. It certainly gives me insight to what we call self-serving mentality from ATO.

If they didn't sign the Chicago Convention then does that mean the Philippines is not fully ICAO ? Who is the body that we can write to to have these clarified and get some answers. Is ICAO a toothless tiger than they cannot implement such rulings ?

What would happen if ATO tommorrow decides that all Quadrantal and Hemispherical cruising altitudes does not suit their taste and just dump the thing and decide to run it like a bump car circuit ? and to the Filipinos - like the traffic in Baclaran.

Or radar vectoring in controlled airspace for priority sequencing for landings or take-offs is only limited to those who pay more in terms of landing fees ? So, for example if Cathay pays more then PAL and the others gets sequenced late.

Mind you, I was coming in as a VFR flight from the south once inbound for Manila and I asked for a clearance and SSR codes to enter the 60 DME "supposedly" controlled airspace and did not even get a proper reply except "remain VFR" - What a stupid thing to say !!! :ugh:... as if they have a choice if I decided to upgrade my flight plan to an IFR. Besides, that is not what I was after. It was positive separation.
=From what I have experienced and learned, there should be positive separation in a Class C airspace like Manila.

That's another matter - they classify Manila as a class E ?????
I'd like to know who's the dumb ass that got paid to classify Manila as a class E. It should be a Class C. Please correct me if I'm wrong ??!!

I'd like to see that new CAAP that Airlinefan is mentioning. I do hope it brings better conditions for all.

To those coming into the airlines, I've noticed that people who have failed their sim test almost have the same reasons. FAILED THE NDB APPROACH PROCEDURE. Please correct me if there are more but this is what seems to catch a lot of guys. Reason being - Almost No NDB aids. There are some but not enough to practice on. And guess where the airlines will test you. NDB Approaches --- :ugh:. Holy smokes !!!

And, students in flying schools don't have VFR charts. They'd be lucky to use a WAC. Some use Google Earth to make these maps. :}... forget the earth's magnetic variations to calculate your compass headings... just USE GOOGLE EARTH and it will take you there ...hopefully in one piece.:mad:

I'm not laughing at them but the whole aviation system in badly need of a major overhaul so we can be at world standards.

Maybe Kapalmuks is right - maybe I am expecting too much too soon. A hundred years maybe :ugh:.

Sorry guys, but I am shocked.

[squarecrow]

Basically any ICAO countries are supposed to promulgate (Publish) any differences to the Annex's in a document like an Air Navigation Order. I would have thought your ATO would have something Like this for International operators to Read and Follow for Compliance of Phillipines Air Regulations and Airspace procedures etc,
Regarding pay offs :mad: Seen it N got the Tee shirt,

[kapalmuks]

another recent evidence that philippines is not getting anywhere. headline reads that greedy LT wins court cases. how can anybody explain how a person so greedy & corrupt in common knowledge cannot be prosecuted by a government which has been going after him for 20 years? unfortunately for us airline people, greedy LT has put one of his tentacles into the airline industry. the circus goes on. watchout for more of the freak show.

[jester_icarus]

Manila a Class E?? why stop at Class C? I always thought Manila was a Class B Airport and having a Class E attached to it for added protection (scud runners) from the floor and up due to instrument approach.

No charts? how about Jeppesen? surely Jepp must have one charted out..VFR chart.. this i got to research. if i get a hold of one.. ill share it with all aviators i meet.

Knowledge is useless unless it can be shared...right?

8ball... ill see if i can scrounge up some charts...

"keep the blue side up" all

[thrust clb]

When ATC says "Proceed VFR" , they are doing all of us a favor by making the slower guys in IFR equipped Piston-twins, or LET410's enter Manila by the usual VFR-inbound corridors. Usually it is during peak hours when PAL, BUPAK, and Air Phil's jets arrive more or less at the same time. Imagine being told you are number 8 for arrival, and with VMC conditions the small guys insist on going IFR, it is a waste of time, as well as fuel for everyone to get an Aztec or a Beech 18 in between the 320's and 737's. If you notice, the Seair Dornier 328 and even Asian Spirit BAe146 cancels IFR at 25dme and proceeds VFR into 13 when there is at least 3 jets on 121.1.

Anyways, why will you want to be vectored all the way to Zulu or Tara when you got a straight fuss-free direct join downwind approach into 13? VFR corridor from the southwest quadrant between radials 181-204 of Manila VOR is free from fast traffic, and by the time you are at 15dme at 2500ft, the jets and fast turboprops are at 4000 minimum. With regards to "POSITIVE SEPARATION" , believe me, the controllers at 119.7 and 121.1 SEE YOU and will tell you of any traffic, which unless you really are on the specified VFR Corridor would seldom if ever Pop up. So, when ATC says "PROCEED VFR" it is the RIGHT thing to say, i'm sure the guy that owns the plane you fly will also agree.;)

Of course, in IMC conditions..that's another case.

[Eight Ball]

He didn't say "PROCEED VFR", he said "Remain VFR" - that's what's confusing.
And why would he say Proceed VFR when I actually told him I was a "VFR Aztec" on my initial report? There was no mention on my part that I was doing anything else (like changing to IFR) except getting a clearance. The cloud cover at that time was 3/8 at 4,000 and nothing else. It was clearly VMC and therefore was going for 13.

The thing is after that, he didn't say anything else until we switched to tower. :confused:.... or maybe as you say there was no other traffic. I was just worried because we were transiting the IFR Climb and Descent areas and he was not saying anything.

I wouldn't dream of changing to IFR and vectored to these waypoints if the weather was VMC. That's a waste of fuel. I wouldn't do that to the owner...... since he's a nice guy to let me fly his plane;).
------------------------------------------------------------

Going back to the subject of ATO. We are faced with a dilemma as our rating overseas on singles and multi doesn't seem to be recognized by ATO unless you have flown it in the Philippines for 10 hours :ugh: and then a checkride :{ just to have it included in the RP license. WHY ????
I have around 66 hours in the C172 and 78 hrs in the C152 and they are requiring me to fly it again for 10 hours each !!!! :*

The equivalent of the ATO overseas don't provide us with a certification of our flying time so I got one from my ex-Chief Pilot but unfortunately they don't trust that nor our logbooks either. So, we are somewhat stuck in limbo. Can someone HELP !!!

Thanks again everyone

[jester_icarus]

i feel you 8bal..ive got 620 in a C172 and 370 in a C152 and who knows in a C150... after 370 i think i stoped counting..

anyway to put some light in th certificate of flying time..

a few years ago working with the same ATO rep... all i did was photo copy my logbook and had it notirized... funny... cause anywhere down the street, any corner, any alley way is a notory public.. im confused???!??! and this was valid.

Although that may seem work again..im going the other direction as far as getting a certificate fo flying time..but this may not work for all.

The FAA has a form that you fill out whenever there are changes in you lic..ie..new rating, checkrides..on this form is also a section where you can submit your new flight time experience so that Oklahoma (home of the FA) has an updated records of your flying time. One this form is filled out get it notirized and viola!!!!! certificated of flying time.

Im sorry that this may not work for other countries but try to find a similar forms with your aviation admin...

"keep the blue side up"

[Eight Ball]

Jester - they have Jeppesen charts for IFR ( you'll even have to scrounge that one) but VFR charts are not available.

Also, with the certification of flying time, unfortunately we just don't have anything that can be attested by Civil Aviation of Australia. I had to get one from my ex-chief pilot. That is when he found out I was going home.
Our logbooks and flight records are all based on honesty system - which ATO doesn't think it exists. Because they themselves are not honest.:mad:

Kapalmuks - I know what you mean. LT winning court cases is due to his influential ties as you know and I have heard countless cases from my folks here when I came back, but as they say "every dog has it's day". These people who have stepped on little people will have their day for justice. :rolleyes:

Squarecrow - got the F'n Tee-shirt too from this organization.


"8 ball on the corner pocket"

[win_faa]

The ATO is a signatory to the Chicago Convention of 1944 because if not there is no possibility for PAL, Cebupac and the rest of 121 or even 135 to fly outside Philippine territory... thats the reason why the FAA conducts regular International Aviation Safety Assessment audit (IASA) to the Philippines and in fact in the next few months (lets just hope for the best and cross our fingers, especially for PAL :{) the Philippines will be downgraded to Category 2 by the FAA. This is the reason why Congress is trying to rush a bill changing the ATO into PCAA. Which in my opinion will not solve the problems at the ATO...

At the moment, Philippines is still enjoying the CAT 1 status http://www.faa.gov/passengers/international_travel/. Should a downgrade occurs, PAL will be the one severely affected by this and of course the Republic of the Philippines

[airlinefan]

Soory guys but with incredible speed the house passed on third reading the proposed bill. This now goes to the senate then for a rubber stamp by GMA. This is historical and please give our country a break. Slowly but surely we will transform to a 1st world country - but it will take more time. The ATO is no worse then some FAA/JAA folks it is simply a matter of perspective..................

God Bless PR...............:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[win_faa]

The deficiencies raised by the FAA can be administratively fixed without the need of a new organization i.e. Philippine Civil Aviation Authority (PCAA).

If you have read the House Bill 3156, it transforms the ATO into an independent agency...Philippine Civil Aviation Authority. The bill exempts the new regulatory agency from taxes, customs and tariff duties in acquiring supplies and services used for its operations. Upgrading the ATO will only set up another vehicle for corruption.

[kapalmuks]

with due respect to airlinefan: the big picture in republic islands of pr is not so rosy. i have to disagree with you 100% that ato is no worse then (sic) faa and/or jaa. ato is a pithole of corruption & incompetence. faa checkers are airline pilots themselve while ato checkers do not even want to ride the sim in toulose but are happy just to bring home the per diem given by the airline concerned. have you heard of this? there is a ato checker who was transferred by ortega away from the licensing division for corruption. he was transferred to the fire truck division. he even earned more pesos there by selling water to homes with swimming pools. after ortega he is back selling phil license to foreigners.
look again airlinefan. your guess is as wild as my guess whether this pcaa will ever change things for better. change all the incompetent & corrupt people all at the same time & maybe we can go somewhere. but in the island republic of pr is this possible? i hope so. but saying everything is going well is farthest from the truth.

[win_faa]

I really pity the ATO, imagine the acting OIC at the ATO - Dimagiba (because Jatico is suspended for non liquidiation of cash advances) even said in an interview with the media (I think in Imbestigador, not quite sure) that should the FAA downgrades the Republic of the Philippines to Cat 2, PAL will just be the one affected! So that means to say they dont mind it! Wait till the French DGAC, IAA, or even ICAO learn that the Philippines is downgraded AGAIN by the FAA to Cat 2, they too will take immediate action on the Philippines with regards to the ability of the ATO in ensuring safety oversight of Philippine air carriers. Expect travel advisories issued by ICAO member states spreading all over the internet concerning the safety of civil aviation in RP.

[Eight Ball]

Airlinefan, you're too optimistic my friend. :)

ATO to improve with the creation of PCAA ? hmmmm...... it's like asking Count Dracula to change into an angel. Fat chance. They can't even get the licensing system fixed from sucking blood from license holders.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I would want more than to get ATO up to standards but......

I agree with Kapalmuks and win faa.

ATO is on FAA's crosshairs for a good reason.

[St. Ex]

Hi 8ball,

When Manila ATC tells you to "remain VFR" or "maintain VFR", what he really means is to "stay in VMC". It is just a reminder which he usually issues during times when weather conditions are clearly visual but the visibility from their vantage point is at or below the required minimum (usually due to haze or smog). This is also because they merely 'eyeball' the visibility due to lack of transmissometers at RPLL. Consider yourself lucky to have been cleared to runway 13.

They used to allow 'Special VFR' into 06/24 but this privilege has since been revoked. Don't ask me why.

[Eight Ball]

St. Ex

Why should I consider myself lucky to be cleared for Rwy 13 ? That is the runway to be used for VFR isn't it ?

I wasn't asking for any special favours to use 06/24.

[St. Ex]

Eightball,

Sorry about that, what I meant to say was that you were lucky to have been given VFR clearance on an iffy low visibility VMC day. Obviously, the only way you could be cleared to land on 13/31 would be under VFR.

On many occasions, aircraft are not cleared to land even when the PIC clearly states that the runway is in sight, on a bright, cloudless summer day if ATC declares visibility (from their vantage point) is below minimums, even if it is only due to haze/ smog. This is the reason operators request special VFR. Under Special VFR, asuming ATC grants you the clearance, you may continue under VFR(technically) but with vectors from ATC which usually takes you to the final approach for the landing runway. Unfortunately, this is a privilege which ATC no longer grants. You end up being told to proceed to your alternate.

Of course another alternative would be to request IFR clearance but that would mean that ATC would have to sequence you along with all the other IFR traffic operating out of or into 06/24 and that would cause undue albeit unwanted delay.

[Eight Ball]

what I meant to say was that you were lucky to have been given VFR clearance on an iffy low visibility VMC day.Thanks for clarifying that St Ex. However, not being trivial the viz was okay that day.

aircraft are not cleared to land even when the PIC clearly states that the runway is in sight, on a bright, cloudless summer day if ATC declares visibility (from their vantage point) is below minimums,That's understandable, I've learned from ATPL that slant visibility is 12 times worse than when you're over the runway. It will be a rude shock to the pilot when he turns final and all of a sudden loses sight of the runway or it's lights.

You end up being told to proceed to your alternate.

That's why it's always a good idea to listen to ATIS and study the TAFs before going.

[arrowmark]

EightBall

Manila is still one of the few Primary Airports where a C-152 can fly in and land. I suspect this situation will not last much longer ..

I am sure you are aware of the RWY 13 Breakwater approach. I have often used it. It is a breakwater just off South Harbour that almost lines up with RWY 13. Using this as a guide, you can track visually to 13 when you cannot even see the Runway when the coastline. Go figure??? This is VFR according to teh tower on many occasions. It has been a while, but I guess they still allow it from the North on 13.

Your situation just describes the worserning situation with ATC, as I have watched it degrade over the last 10 years. There is no consistancy with the ATC procedures relating to VFR. Check Rides from Manila have been stopped. VFR arrivals are now limited to certain times of the day I was just informed (un-verified as yet)

Why, one could be acused of thinking they do not want ANY VFR in Manila, tsk, tsk, what a thought???

Is it undermanning that it is the problem? It cannot be too much traffic as there is only 300 or so aircraft flying now, not many actually based in manila. There used to be over 2000 flying in the philippines including more than 40 Kingairs. I believe there is only 4 or 6 flying now. How did they handle it then without all the modern equipment they have now. It seem way too hard for them now, doesn't it??

The bottom line is that general Aviation is slowly going away, along with the airports as well. In ten years there may be no where or no aircraft to fly unless you are in an airliner.

How many Aztecs are there here? How many of the work horse aircraft that you see in the states. Answer = almost none.

The Philippine AViation Community needs to wake up and see the writing on the wall. ATO, PAL, CebuPack and whoever do not want any little guys flying around. They just see us as a pain in the ass that should go away.

Look at AOPA in the USA, they fight against EVERY airport closure, what does the phlippine aviation community do??

If you want to fly here, airline or nothing in ten years:ugh:
ArrowMark

[Eight Ball]

Hi ArrowMark

Manila is still one of the few Primary Airports where a C-152 can fly in and land. I suspect this situation will not last much longerI agree, and if their VFR inconsistencies continue, soon we will have near misses with airliners and the more they will have reasons to ban lighties in MNL. They'll just blame it on the little guys.


I am sure you are aware of the RWY 13 Breakwater approach. I have often used it. It is a breakwater just off South Harbour that almost lines up with RWY 13. Using this as a guide, you can track visually to 13 when you cannot even see the Runway when the coastline. Go figure??? This is VFR according to teh tower on many occasions.
Is this what you mean - Reference AIP Section 2.3 Sub-Section 2.3.1 b

"Rwy 13 Landing: Request to make STRIGHT-IN-APPROACH before South Harbour. When request is approved descend to 600ft towards Philippine Navy. Continue descent so as to maintain 300ft over Baclaran Redemptorist church and the 50 ft. clearance above the runway threshold. If request is disapproved, turn right at or before South Harbour, avoiding other aircraft in the traffic circuit thence enter downwind leg Runway 13; or any other maneuver as instructed by the Aerodrome Controller"

You wouldn't want to know what I think of this - believe me.

It has been a while, but I guess they still allow it from the North on 13. I guess they still do after asking several orbits from you :{.... it reminds me of an American joke, will tell you about it some other time.

Your situation just describes the worserning situation with ATC, as I have watched it degrade over the last 10 years. There is no consistancy with the ATC procedures relating to VFR.Gives me the goosebumps... thank you, I thought I was the only one who has noticed it

Check Rides from Manila have been stopped. VFR arrivals are now limited to certain times of the day I was just informed (un-verified as yet)
Is this the VFR flights allowed only from sunrise to sunset ?
This is one of the things I wonder - looks like they don't have Night VFR ?

So, I guess the students don't have a lot of experience in night circuits.

Why, one could be acused of thinking they do not want ANY VFR in Manila, tsk, tsk, what a thought??? Probably the possibility of having a mid-air scare in a controlled airspace due to their inconsistencies. Someone mentioned to me once that they have noticed that ATC is not there to help you but to play bully. Now that's a scary thought.

Is it undermanning that it is the problem? It cannot be too much traffic as there is only 300 or so aircraft flying now, not many actually based in manila. There used to be over 2000 flying in the philippines including more than 40 Kingairs. I believe there is only 4 or 6 flying now. How did they handle it then without all the modern equipment they have now. It seem way too hard for them now, doesn't it?? One answer - funds are probably not allocated properly but siphoned by someone. When was the last time they had a radar upgrade and change in the National Airspace System. --- let me guess, 100 years ago ?

The bottom line is that general Aviation is slowly going away, along with the airports as well. In ten years there may be no where or no aircraft to fly unless you are in an airliner. Yep, sold to SM (Shoe Mart) directors, Jollibee and McDonalds :}

How many Aztecs are there here? How many of the work horse aircraft that you see in the states. Answer = almost none.

The Philippine AViation Community needs to wake up and see the writing on the wall. ATO, PAL, CebuPack and whoever do not want any little guys flying around. They just see us as a pain in the ass that should go away.
No wonder Plaridel airstrip is getting congested :ooh:. Even Clark ( CDC ) wants the little guys out. Some schools in the Clark area have been doing their flying training in Lingayen.

Look at AOPA in the USA, they fight against EVERY airport closure, what does the phlippine aviation community do?? Nothing I suppose. We don't have a union to stand up against this and ATO.

[Filam]

eight ball, excellent post. i too was shocked with the standards of ATO. it is basically a cash cow for the corrupt examiners who basically traded high standards for "SOP" or in other words the almight peso "2,000 php" to be exact. i was told in the inside these examiners during jatico's reign were making as much as 400,000 php and up every month. i was even offered to work there by a congressman but, turned it down with disgust. it's a shame for our mother land.

sad to say, i've done some major ass kissing and the taste is bitter sweet. it's bitter because of all the politics of calling every examiner captain and trying to treat them like they are god and is sweet because i finally got my CPL and IR converted after a one year wait. Heck, I even placed a post on how to get hired in an airline here in the philippines and no one, i mean no even one pilot offered info. to help out. i thought the crab mentility applied to some but, sad to say it is factual.

i'm presently trying to land a job here. already submitted the resumes and i'm waiting for an answer. i do miss the states because i have jobs waiting there but, my family is living in the province and my wife prefers i be close by. i can 't blame them. when you get married, it's called compromise.

anyway fellow filam, i hope you can land a job here soon. just remember, when you reach captain, don't be like them. let's change the culture of the airlines here.

take it easy pal and God bless,

filam