An Excuse For Everything!

[llanfairpg]

As an examiner I find one of the most annoying things about candidates can be the number that interrupt everything you say on the debrief with, " I was doing that, I did do that" etc etc. You know the type that make you feel at the end that you wish you had not debriefed at all and just given the result?

Do you find this and how do you deal with these candidates.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Fail them, or start the test by saying that everything they do has to be obvious so that this doesn't become an issue.

Other than that I simply say, well I didn't see you and that's all that matters.

[Captain Jock]

I am not a flight examiner but I was an examiner in an unrelated field.
I never ceased to be amazed by the number of times a candidate genuinely believed he had written a particular answer but the reality was completely different.
Perhaps it is the "it wasnae my fault" syndrome!

[foxmoth]

I would say that if this is happening occasionally then it is the student, but if this is happening enough to worry about then maybe you need to look at yourself and ask if you are stepping in too early and maybe give the candidate more rope to hang himself or get it sorted - obviously not until it gets dangerous.:eek:

[llanfairpg]

Mike that is a very interesting theory that i had never really given a lot of thought to before--thanks.

Say again--I dont think I could say to someone," its only my opinion that counts" but I know what you mean and that was in the background of my thoughts when i posted the question.

Foxmoth (do you remember g-aojh)
I dont understand what you mean

I used to use the phrase.

Can I ask you to listen to this de-brief without interrupting me. You can have your say at the end after I have given you the result.

I recently stopped doing that and am back to debating sessions, which some of my colleagues say is the correct way to do it.

I just wondered if any of you have any preferences or pet phrases etc..

I have just rembered what was said to me on a CAA course once. If a man has failed, he has failed, leave him in no uncertainainity about that failure.

Anyone care to discuss that (this was a flying school forum by the way)

[FlyingForFun]

Llanfairpg, very good question.

I'm not an examiner, but from an instructor's point of view, different students need different techniques. For example, one recent student of mine, when I was briefing him or debriefing him, would always nod his head, agree with me, and often finish my sentences. It seemed, at first, that he was taking in everything I was saying..... but I very soon realised that he was actually understanding very little of it, and the nodding and finishing sentences was nothing more than a habit.

My technique with this particular student was to ask lots and lots of questions - far more than I would with most students. If there was something that he wasn't getting, I would ask him the question, then, when he couldn't answer it, I would tell him the answer, and then ask him the same question worded differently. Even doing this, I often had to repeat it half a dozen times before he eventually clicked that he knew the answer (because I'd just given it to him), but it was the only way I could find of judging when he actually understood something.

As an instructor, I get to spend lots of time with students, getting to know them and their habits. As an examiner, you don't have that luxury, which I would imagine must make it a much tougher job for you than it is for us?

FFF
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PS Just realised I haven't actually answered your question at all, but hopefully have added fuel to the debate!

[kwachon]

As an FAA examiner, I find the best answer is to first tell them the result of the check, if then during the debrief they start the "but if" syndrome, I just tell them that it was clearly not enough to meet the standards.

Remember, we are all allowed to bitch after a fail so I usually allow some latitude, however, as I said earlier, they have already been advised of the result so what is said is quite irrelevent to the outcome.

[Whirlybird]

pilotmike,

I'm not at all sure about your generalisations. I've become far BETTER at taking criticism as I've got older. As a child and teenager, I had no confidence whatsoever. Therefore I just HAD to be right. Any criticism of anything I did felt like a criticism of me as a human being, and I'd fight it like mad. Now...well, basically I don't give a damn. If I make a mistake, so be it, and I'll learn from it. I'm old enough to be happy in my own skin, so criticism is no big deal.

I'm not an examiner, but as an instructor I find that you need to find ways of pointing things out to students without criticising. And it's not just the words you use; you have to stop your own attitude being critical, or people will pick up on that. And it's the less confident ones who have the hardest time with this sort of thing...as I used to.

I realise this must be a lot harder for an examiner....not sure how I'd go about that. :confused:

[llanfairpg]

Flying for Fun-- great stuff. I agree checking for understanding is a very important part of instructional technique, the amount of checking varies according to the ability of the student and of course the instructor too.

You reminded me of that type of student who finishes every sentance for you God that is annoying isnt it?

Its a little bit of the opposite in the examiners forum sometimes with the stude understanding what you are saying but just not accepting your reason for the criticism. The big problem is time, if you mention 6 items you can open the situation for a 6 point debate.

I will give an example where I failed a stude for overall performance and one of the criticisms i made is that I did not detect him make any control input to align the aircraft with the centreline while making a crosswind landing. My feet were very carefully and lightly placed on the rudders and at no time did the student remove the drift, he just allowed the aircraft to land with the drift on, no big deal only 15 knots xwind but I was specifically examining xwind technique--he would not accept this, (he of course did not detect the drift) lengthy debate, wanted to do it again etc etc

[llanfairpg]

Whirley you are so right--you need to pick the words carefully for criticism but the examining situation is different because you are debriefing a complete skills check and there can be so many areas to criticise or comment on. Trying to get this into a sim or aircraft slot can be difficult when you have a potential mega excuse maker.

Kwachon--I do not annouce the result first because i may need to qualify a few points before coming to a decison. I also need to see if the student can make comments like, "Yes I know I should have done so and so" rather than the types that says, " well I did do that".

I prefer to give the benifit of the doubt in some situations but if the candidates wants to argue the point it may well lead to a fail or my reccomendation for further training. (one of my unofficial and preffered types of fail)

[kwachon]

Some great comments here, It must be remembered that an examiner is just that!, examining. What he is examining is the candidates ability to meet the respective standards set forth by the aviation body of the respecive country. He is not an Instructor and cannot be during the check, now, in the US an examiner can ask a candidate to redo a manoever if he deems it unsat (part 135) but still has to make a judgement call if it is unsat again.

What must be remembered is that examiners were instructors in a former life and do understand what is going on, when I see a candidate make a mistake it reminds me of my instructor days and I have to ask myself if this was a mistake or a lack of knowledge and understanding of the task at hand. This often forms my opinion during the debrief regardless of the outcome.

[llanfairpg]

When I first got my PPL examiners rating I did what the CAA man told me-- if a man has failed, he has failed there is no in between, its a fail.

I felt quite important at first, failed a few people as the man said but one day after I got a partial in my IR I looked at the problem slightly differently. I thought along the lines that that man carries that fail for the rest of his flying career and then I did not feel quite so big. There were other considerations too like running a business. The net outcome is that I no longer looked at it in the same way as the CAA man. I developed my further training pass, good for business, achieves the same end result also did not offend the students instructor, only problem is guess what, even more excuses on the de-brief!!!

Oh should add still had to fail the odd one or two. The one I remember is the guy that flew me to Coventry and told me it was Birmingham!

[foxmoth]

Foxmoth (do you remember g-aojh)

Indeed I do, many happy hours flying that wonderful machine.:ok:

What I was meaning here was I have flown with many instructors/examiners, most of whom are very good, but occasionally you do get one that, just before you perform an action, gives you a big hint that it is time to do it - very frustrating to the student (tends to be mainly instructors) and also instructors/examiners that do seem to have been in a different aircraft than the one I have been in. Most of the time it is the student not the examiner at fault, but someone getting a lot of this sort of feedback in a debrief really should take a good look at himself and check he has not slipped into one of these categories.

[llanfairpg]

The brain like any organ deterioates past its peak, the question is wheres the peak. Mine was around the age of 5!

[charliegolf]

Llanfairpg

Useful /pet phrases....

Can I suggest, "Shut up and listen, or you're chopped, but bear in mind you're not chopped yet"

More seriously, I believe (whether explicit or not) it is your duty to fail anyone you feel unable to accept direction and guidance.

CG

[JUST-local]

I once overheard a similar situation the excuses were coming thick and fast, the examinar said:-
“Can you stop transmitting for a moment and switch to receive!”
Seemed to do the trick! :)

[llanfairpg]

I like it!

More seriously, I believe (whether explicit or not) it is your duty to fail anyone you feel unable to accept direction and guidance.

Yes I have/do but that is a last resort, in my experince an arrogant pratt is always going to be just that but thats not a condition for not holding a pilots licence (unfortunately!)

[huckleberry58]

Yes it can be annoying. At the end of the day did the guy ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVES? ie. did he meet the hard tolerances like height/speed etc requirements which you had hopefully pointed out during the briefing? And in you judgement did he operate the aircraft 1.safely 2.confortably and 3.efficiently? That is what i look for. In saying that,there are grey area. Sometimes something which would strictly be a failing point I may let off as long as it is not unsafe, let's say just something which needs abit of work. You kinda get a sense of the student, you know, an overall picture, and for example if this guy is enrolled in a full time integrated course and you know he will get it with just abit more experience then that's ok with me. Of course i'm not condoning being a pushover or anything.

[frontlefthamster]

There is also a problem when the examiner is simply wrong, and the student, right. :}

Less often encountered in GA, this does crop up in big aeroplanes, and there is nothing worse than a TRE with a bee in his bonnet, but without the in-depth knowledge that one of his candidates might have. :hmm:

Keep it simple! :ok:

[Dysonsphere]

Never had any problem listening to examiners they were normally right on my first exam got a partial pass which I thought was very kind as he didnt scream when I opened the throttle while in a spiral dive (attack off nerves) closed it straight away but still got failed, thought it was very fair passed the retest no problems.