Tory "Green" calls for Manchester-London Flights ban

[763 jock]

OK Folks. What do we think of this latest scheme? Our man is based in Suffolk BTW.......


Plea to scrap London air link
Ian Craig
4/12/2007
A LEADING Tory has called for flights between Manchester and London to be scrapped.
Former environment minister John Gummer said there was `no reason' for people to fly to the capital and they should be made to take the train instead.
His call came in a report on `green' issues being considered by Conservative leader David Cameron as he draws up his party's environment policy.
Mr Gummer claimed an increasing number of people were choosing the high-speed rail link for the 200-mile journey and called for commuter flights to be grounded to cut greenhouse gas emissions.
There are currently 32 scheduled flights a day between Manchester and London's four main airports, carrying a total of 1.5m passengers a year.
Mr Gummer is joint author of the wide-ranging Quality of Life Challenge report, which is being considered by Mr Cameron's team. The report claimed a quarter of flights out of London airports go to places reached in the same time by train.
The report also said passengers flying to Heathrow to catch a connecting flight for overseas should also use trains.
It said: "Around 100,000 of the 470,000 flights using Heathrow every year are to near-Europe destinations . . . with a reasonable rail alternative, including Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle."
Mr Gummer said in the Commons: "What are we going to do about the 30-odd flights a day to Manchester? There is no reason to have those.What about a transport policy that would enable people to go by train from Manchester to Heathrow?"
Manchester Airport and air firms accused him of oversimplifying the issue. The airport's Jonathan Bailey said: "If London air links were removed overnight, it would put a severe burden on the rail system and remove choice and competition.
"We would like more direct long haul routes to avoid short hops to hub airports, but both rail and air are needed for the immediate future."
British Airways said half the people who flew were making connecting journeys, so `rail is not a practical alternative'.
Climate change minister Phil Woolas, MP for Oldham and Saddleworth, said: "My constituents have as much right to fly as everyone else."
A spokesman for Tory leader Mr Cameron stressed: "These are Mr Gummer's personal views rather than Party policy."
Mr Gummer told the M.E.N: "We actually do have to reduce our carbon footprint. If we don't do that then everybody's life will be in peril..
"The first thing is we must make sure there is an adequate alternative. If we had a proper infrastructure policy then we would be able to remove the argument for flying from London to Manchester.
"We don't want to stop people going on holiday but we have to get rid of these flights that are fundamentally unnecessary."

[Dysonsphere]

Grrrrrr London to Manchester only yes get the train, but Manc to London for a connecting flight you fly the train involves change at Euston to underground to paddington then another change to HEX to Heathrow this involves several sets of stairs etc whos kidding who

[kingair9]

Don't want to judge the UK situation where I know personally that the rail network is not up to e.g. German standards. Just for info: LH has already dropped or/and is in the process of dropping certain domestic routes in favour of reserved train coaches with spacial "FAs" in these coaches and including FFP miles etc.

FRA-CGN has been dropped, FRA-DUS and FRA-STR are under consideration of being dropped. Called "AirRail".

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

The right honourable gentleman allegedly also had a hand in Crowfield aerodrome, Suffolk losing it's 'permanent' planning permission back in the early 90s.

I suppose when you have a chauffeur driven Jag, London to Manchester is a breeze, and anyway, why would a politician want to mix with the underclass who travel by air to Manchester?

He wasn't much of an MP when the Tories were in charge, and now demonstrates what a total waste of space they are as the opposition...:ugh:

[paully]

Even the Tories used to call him John Seldom Glummer...................................What a clown:rolleyes:

[Woofrey]

Methinks that the Heathrow slots situation is such that if you remove approx 10,000 Manchester flights they'll just be taken up by other routes....probably long haul.

So the number of flights won't go down, the number of train journies will go up, and possibly more long haul flights direct from Manchester ? So overall..more emmisions ?

The problem for the green brigade is that LHR will always be full to capacity, a bit like those extra lanes on the motorway.......traffic just grows to fill the space available.

[akerosid]

Buy that man a burger! ;)

[Avitor]

He's the gonk who forced a beef burger on his young son, days before the mass outbreak of mad cow disease.

Green? I could think of anything but green to describe him!

[mhk77]

What a tool he is. And how does he intend to provide the trains to carry 1.5million passengers a year between Manchester and London on top of the current train travellers. This whole 'Green' thing is really starting to tick me off. It's all a load of dangly bits to hide the fact that that those ba$tards we elect can continually put up taxes for flying/driving with the excuse that it's 'good for the environment'. FFS.

[sickBocks]

I don't think Mr Gummer has been near a train recently.

Overcrowded, overpriced. You can't even throw money at the problem and upgrade any more - first class is full especially on a Sunday night.

Or you could travel earlier at the weekend to sample the replacement bus service.

[student88]

Good idea if you can find a train ticket that doesn't cost an arm and a leg!

[Red Top Comanche]

Another reason for using short haul is the cost.

I had to go from London to Leeds by trainat short notice for a meeting.

The fare was £180 return for each of us and there were three people.

On the basis that Network Rail were paying, I used the train, but it would have been cheaper to take a light aircraft/taxi and maybe a rickshaw.

The cost from MAN to LHR comes up as £94.70 on Last minute.

:ugh:

[old,not bold]

As Chuffer said above, little Mr Gummer has form.

He lined up with all the other wealthy incomers, ie his constituents, in East Suffolk, 8 or 9 years ago, to protest about Bentwaters replacing Ipswich, repeating some of the most fanciful lies that have ever been heard about an airport development proposal.

Tasters:

"there will be 100,000 B747 flights at Bentwaters every year";

"when it was USAF, no-one noticed the aircraft movements, and there was no noise at Snape Maltings music centre. But as a private airport it will blight the whole of Suffolk".

"There is no unemployment in East Suffolk."

"The public don't want it". (Not the opinion of the jobless 24% - see other lie above - and another 40% or so of the locals who supported the idea, but then Mr Gummer doesn't like talking to the unemployed people or locals whom he "represents".)

[barry lloyd]

Bought a ticket today to travel from Crewe to London and back next week - 29.35 standard class. Also bought a one-way first class to London for the following week - 20.15, admittedly with the discount benefit of a Railcard, but there are cheap fares out there. If you travel at the last minute on any form of transport these days, you'll pay the premium.
Mr Gummer may be fascinated to know that VLM pulled off the LPL-LCY route earlier this year, blaming competition from Virgin Trains, though interestingly they still fly there fom MAN, albeit with a reduced service.
The problem with the trains on the West Coast Main Line is that because they are more reliable, they are also constantly full. Presently, there is not much room on the tracks for more trains, and Virgin has ordered one additional coach(!) for each Pendolino train set.
Yet another politician totally out of touch:ugh:

[MAN Guy]

What a spanner this man is spouting off this rubbish to chase a few "green" votes and to get himself a bit of recognition again..... burger anyone?

Also I don't quite see how this ridiculous proposal fits in with Tory values such as "freedom of choice" and a "competition driven consumer economy"

Utter rubbish.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Said politician then catches a Business Class tax payer funded flight (junket) to Bounes Aires to sample Bovine Turburculosis/CJD free beef just in time for a sunny XMAS!!

Blue Foot

[ANW]

The last time I saw the Right Honourable gentleman was as he stepped out of a gas-guzzling twin engined helicopter on a visit to Manchester. Since then most of the Labour and Conservative ministers continue to use large helicopters to wizz them around - no trains for them! Indeed the previous Leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard, last visited Manchester in a Super Puma helicopter.

Now is this the same Selwyn Gummer who, after many years of planning kick backs, finally approved the application to construct the massive out of town shopping complex called The Trafford Centre. Thereby condemning the populace to a M60 motorway running alongside which can be grid locked for most of the day. Not to mention the loss of trade in local towns and city centres.

If airlines provided more direct international links to regional UK airports, be they Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow etc etc, then there would not be any reason to travel to London to connect to an intercontinental flight. In any case my preference is to route via Amsterdam.

Anyone remember the Y2K alleged computer bug which would stop all computers when 2000 came up on the New Year? Many 'experts' made a killing on large consultants' fees. So now the latest scam is global warming. Anyone fancy a few weeks at the current conference in Bali?

[Cyclone733]

Work related trip to sunny Exeter a while back, meetings over ran so missed my 1:30 flight home sat in comfort finishing off work. Ended up spending £90 on an 8 hour train journey with standing room only. Just happy to be doing my part for the environment:}

For those fortunate enough not to have travelled on the UKs' rail network in recent years, it doesn't hold a candle to the European railways. Out dated infrastructure and rolling stock. Thanks in part to the last Tory government starting the privatisation of the network (and the current governments inability to stop it). If the government put as much money into the opening up of airspace in the UK and Europe as it does in subsidies to the rail operators I'm sure the reduction flight times/emmissions would be enormous

[barry lloyd]

Cyclone:
Got to agree with the second paragraph.
Travelled from Roskilde to Copenhagen last week (30 mins). Fast, clean, comfortable and on time. No wonder there were standing passengers!
Price per m/km about the same as the UK. There's a lot we could learn.

[172driver]

As per post no3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3749244&postcount=3) above, it might be worth noting that FRA has a mainline train station in built into it. No trouble connecting there. At LHR ? Errrrr......:=

[monkey lover]

Maybe a good idea....but please supply a reasonable alternative....

[MarkD]

Direct city centre to terminal trains between LHR and Oxford/Birmingham would be a start - worry about Manchester later.

[747-436]

Direct city centre to terminal trains between LHR and Oxford/Birmingham would be a start - worry about Manchester later.

Well said, if they provide a decent alternative for all the connecting pax, ie a fast rail line that comes direct into LHR then they can think about reducing domestic flights.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2982649.ece

If what is in the above article comes to fruition then more flights to relativly nearby places could be reduced.
But Governments take so long doing things it will be 2030 by the time any of this happens!!

[squeaker]

My favourite ever Private Eye cover:

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=742

Dear old Glummer, looks like he may have ingested some after all....

[BHX man]

Actually Virgin are adding 2 coaches per train set (2nd class) , adding over 150 seats to each set.

[kala87]

Agree about the trains, if and only if, LHR had a rail station that provided fast direct links to all parts of the UK (similar to Frankfurt's integral rail station) would there be a case for a reduction in the number of domestic flights to cities under about 300 miles.

I'm surprised anyone takes any notice of these pontificating, pompous politicians of any party! None of them seem to live in the real world.

[befree]

If you live in Mancester then going to LHR to take a long haul seems mad. O am sure that the 787 is aimed at providing direct flights from Mancester to a wide range of major capitals. Going via LHR uses 3 slots instead of using 1 by flying direct. Stopping the shuttles to LHR would make more direct services viable.

Virgin trains are moving to 3 manchester to London trains per hour. When they get two more coaches then the capacity will be twice what it is today.

[Devonair]

Is it possible to get a train to Heathrow from any major UK city aside from London??? I know travellig from Devon we have to go into Paddington and then back track... I suppose this is thanks to decades of London centric transport policies...

[spanishflea]

Is it possible to get a train to Heathrow from any major UK city aside from London???

Nope, only by RailAir coach... :rolleyes:

[pwalhx]

Much as we may like it, stopping Manchester - London flights wouldnt immediately have airlines queueing to start direct long haul from manchester.

[22/04]

Absolutely. Just shows how little Selwyn? Gummer understands. MAN-LHR is vital so long as BA see LHR as a hub for transfer of European services to long haul.

Mind you if LHR-MAN was scrapped I bet AF, LH and KL would provide an hourly shuttle to CDG, FRA/MUC and AMS. EK and others nearly as frequent to DXB

He would no doubt be proud of a green UK pouring money into these economies.

Excuse the rant, had a few beers!

[MUFC_fan]

Unless Virgin can get Manchester-London/Heathrow T5 then there is no point. Over 50% of BA passengers travelling with the airline on the route make connections through LHR and LGW to destinations across the globe. Same with VLM, who offer the business passenger the perfect way into the heart of London. No hassle! Both airlines have proved this and I can only see T3 or BD removing the routes (which I find won't happen when BMI launch TATL in 2009).

Also, launching long haul routes from the airport is fine and dandy, but most travellers on the connections flights choose to fly BA due to their high quality standards.

Personally, I would rather fly MAN-LHR-YYZ with leg room and my own IFE instead of sitting cramped on a MAN-YYZ with TCX/TS/ZM/GSM with a worse service and only my magasine for company and I'm sure many of the 800,000 connecting passengers think the same. I find LHR a great airport to pass through and would choose it any day over AMS, CDG and FRA as it is home to the best airline in the Western world - BA whose service is great!

P.S. I do not work for BA or have any beneficial connection with the airline.

[dollydaydream]

But wouldn't it be nice to fly MAN-YYZ with BA!:ugh:

[MUFC_fan]

So true!

Anyway, next year we should see a rise in MAN-LON if the trains are to become as congested as the planes when the government introduces security measures at most UK train stations.

Why would a businessman/woman want to spend 3 1/2 hours passing security and travelling by train when she could do it within 1 hour 30 mins? Oh yeh...'cos companies care which is greener!:rolleyes:

[TheDesertFerret]

Travelling tommorrow - closest to arr 0900 and arr 0900 the next day.

Train - (arr 0935 Mon, 0906 Tue) standard open return £185

Corresponding BMI fare (0950 arr Mon, 0815 arr Tue) £335

Given the door to door travel times I think Gummer may be onto something.

Gummer may be an arse (that most posters have focussed on rather than the issue raised - tedious - why must so many personalise technical debates - boring - answer the question posed rather than slag an individual off. May I suggest you play the ball and not the man?)

I'm a regular London-Leeds and London-Newcastle business traveller. Rail wins every time. - especially with WiFi.

With respect interlining the point is a sound one. Two thoughts:

1) High speed rail link to Heathrow (as promoted by Greengauge21 lobby group would be quicker than airborne interlining from Leeds / Manchester)

2) Its out of our hands anyhow - BMI are already keen to dump LHR-LBA to use the slots for their A330s open skies.

df

[MUFC_fan]

Yes, the plane is alot more expensive if you are travelling next day but BMI and BA offer fares from £36 one-way to LHR/LGW while VLM are a little more expensive but get you to the heart of business London within 40 mins.

From Lancashire, I would definately take the plane. When travelling from my home to Liverpool Street in London, it took 2 hours 10 mins and cost me £10 return:

Travel to the airport (BLK): 15mins
Waiting in airport: 30mins
Flight: 30mins
Transfer to Liverpool street: 55mins

Simple! Saved myself £££££s by flying with FR. Obviously, this option is not currently available but, I agree, using MAN is abit more difficult and time consuming but, for transfer passengers, would they really wanty to get the train to LHR and then checkin at there or checkin only at MAN? I know which I would rather do.

Also, a late train does not mean you will be transferred onto a later flight if you miss the origional, but if your connecting flight with the same airline (or codeshare) is late and you miss the connection, you will be automatically transferred with no problems.


Its out of our hands anyhow - BMI are already keen to dump LHR-LBA to use the slots for their A330s open skies.


BMI aren't launching TATL until 2009 so don't know what you are on about! Also, LBA-LHR on sale for S08 from £37!

[pwalhx]

BMI are already posturing over their LBA slots, but probably to get favourable rates as their contract is due for renewal.
Its hardly a secret that some routes including MME may dissapear when they do start transatlantic. Which may not be till 2009 who knows.

I actually take the opposite view from mufc in that I would fly anyone from the North rather than transit Heathrow and BA would be my last choice I have never found their service that good.

[chrisleeds2003]

"Travelling tommorrow - closest to arr 0900 and arr 0900 the next day.

Train - (arr 0935 Mon, 0906 Tue) standard open return £185

Corresponding BMI fare (0950 arr Mon, 0815 arr Tue) £335

Given the door to door travel times I think Gummer may be onto something.

Gummer may be an arse (that most posters have focussed on rather than the issue raised - tedious - why must so many personalise technical debates - boring - answer the question posed rather than slag an individual off. May I suggest you play the ball and not the man?)

I'm a regular London-Leeds and London-Newcastle business traveller. Rail wins every time. - especially with WiFi.

With respect interlining the point is a sound one. Two thoughts:

1) High speed rail link to Heathrow (as promoted by Greengauge21 lobby group would be quicker than airborne interlining from Leeds / Manchester)

2) Its out of our hands anyhow - BMI are already keen to dump LHR-LBA to use the slots for their A330s open skies.

df"

I realise it's a sunday, but last night I booked LBA-LHR for £43.30 inc. taxes to fly 24 hours later, on tonight's flight.

The corresponding train fare is £77.

[TheDesertFerret]

Like with like Chrisleeds2003.

I'm comparing walk on fares - and rail is much cheaper.

May I suggest you pick a date in a months timeand compare corresponding apex fares.

The train will be cheaper in most cases - I promise.

In fact it is unfair to compare open rail fares with fixed air fares - you should be comparing apex train tickets with air fares to really compare like with like and then rail will be even cheaper.

I do Leeds - London and the Newcastle - London journey between 20-30 times per year and I love flying - but the reality is rail is cheaper, faster and with much less hassle.

Ever tried working on a flight in economy?

[TheDesertFerret]

MUFC fan

Travel to the airport (BLK): 15mins
Waiting in airport: 30mins
Flight: 30mins
Transfer to Liverpool street: 55mins

In your dreams.

I don't know about Blackpool to wherever but I've flown London Leeds and London Newcastle more times than I care to remember and your leg times are pure fantasy I'm afraid.

If your leg times are accurate I'd fly all the time - but I don't - for good reasons - flying from London is a miserable exercise.

[pwalhx]

Have to agree Runway to Runway Leeds to London Friday before last was over an hour, not including taxying times.

[TheDesertFerret]

Guys - I love flying - I'd love to fly home every time.

I love the white knuckle landing at LBA, especially on 14 over the Chevin.

But the reality is Heathrow is hell to get to - miserable to get through.

The surface access it Heathrow is poor:

- Driving - forget it
- Tube - it takes nearly an hour to get to London
- Heathrow Express - is £15 one way and doesn't even take you to London (it takes you to Paddington - nowhere near the West End never mind the City).

And flying is more expensive (in MOST cases - any dingbat who wants to research prices to find an exception don't waste your time).

[MUFC_fan]

You've obviously never flown from Blackpool! One of the easiest airports I have travelled through and a most definate recommendation if avoiding MAN/LPL is possible.

[TheDesertFerret]

I haven't flown through Blackpool - I'd love to - I'm sure its a fine place.

However, I've flown through all London's airports many times.

Docklands is brilliant - the others have differing problems - and Heathrow is just *****.

I wish Blackpool success - but - back to this thread - I can see domestic short haul fading - and that will be driven by operators not politicians.

I care not that TATL may wait until 2009 - BMI has put down a marker at LBA and will exit when it suits them - as is their right.

[groundhand]

There are +'s and -'s for the proposal. Like most things a move of 100% in another direction is not logical nor sensible.

Having travelled MAN - London many, many times I would always use the train if going to the city and air if flying onwards. I would NEVER fly if going into London itself, the train is a much better option.

I've always found the train to be comfortable (admitedly first class) and timely - maybe I've just been lucky. It is also very competetive on price. USe of lounges makes any waiting acceptable but not having the security queues and the wasted airport time is a major plus.

But by air, nearly every journey was delayed somewhere; missed connections, fighting through the sh**hole of LHR (sorry MUFCfan but I don't know what planet you are on when you prefer LHR to other European hubs abd say BA is the best - have you been in a coma for 30 years?). On some days I've spent almost as much time taxying around airports and waiting for takeoff as I have on the complete journey by train from LON-MAN - about 2 hours.

The main difference between LHR and many other hubs is a direct mainline rail link - BRU, AMS, MUC, FRA all have major rail links at the airports.

If the UK was serious about green issues the Government would have made sure that T5 included a mainline rail station - sadly we do not seem to do joined up thinking in the UK.

If any rail operator can actually get trains to run at high speed from the Midlands and North direct to the tunnel then some of the SE airports might have some issues to face. Again, this has not been part of the 'planning' and it will probably be at least another 15 years before we see that option realised.

[MUFC_fan]

The reason I fly BA is for their Premium economy - superb! Have flown with them for some time now and love the product!

It also helps when visiting the US as I can get my airmiles more easily than using KLM, AF etc when flights are less frequent.

BA economy is by far no way near the likes of SQ etc. but they do offer a superb Premium economy which I find perfectly in my price range. Other EU carriers' business class maybe superior but the Premium class is by far cheaper.

Only ever had one bad experience going through LHR - so far!:oh:

[IB4138]

Here's one of the main reasons it will never happen..Network Rail:

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News%20December%202007/191207_VT.html

Piss ups in breweries comes to mind!

[johnnychips]

I have to go to Brussels from Doncaster quite frequently and until now have never considered anything else but a train to MAN then an SN Brussels/Brussels Airways flight. Service on both train and plane has always been fine.

Suddenly there has been a price hike on the MAN-BRU route - it used to fluctuate between £110-£135, but now has jumped to £160 at least, booking ages in advance, so somebody suggested I considered going by train. After I stopped laughing - after all, who wants to have to book GNER and Eurostar tickets separately, and go from Kings X to Waterloo invoving a Tube change - the kind person pointed out that Eurostar now departs from St Pancras, and through fares were bookable on the internet from English regional stations.

So I looked it up, and to my surprise, it is now quicker and cheaper by rail - £128 not £180 by rail/air, with all seat reservations included.

I think if the railway industry can get its act together, it will be great for the airlines - it will free up more space. The Channel Tunnel route is underused at the moment. On the other hand a massive increase in capacity will be needed on other rail routes, which I can't really see coming.

[TheDesertFerret]

IB4138 - what is the "it" that will never happen?

If you refer to rail taking over domestic short haul then I would suggest reduced frequencies Liverpool and Man to London suggest (on the back of the West Coast Main Line upgrade) indicate that it is already happening.

I beg to differ on Network Rail - it isn't perfect - (aviation is right? A380, A400 and 787 delays, airline and airport strikes.......hmmmm).

Now if you were referring to Railtrack I'd be with you 100% - perhaps the most truly awful company the bastard child of an apocalyptic policy that killed people through incompetence.

Channel Tunnel rail link and St Pancras built on time and on budget...

[MarkD]

TDF: I thought it was London & Continental Railways that built the Tunnel Rail Link, not Network Rail? Maybe that's the way to go - get someone other than Network Rail to build the things, and hope they can at least manage to not let them fall apart after...

[TheDesertFerret]

Thanks MarkD,

You are quite correct - I didn't properly delineate my comments.

The point of my last sentence is that the rail industry can deliver - it wasn't my intention to attribute it to Network Rail.

Network Rail already contracts in for enhancements - but I don't wish to bore aviation enthusiasts any further.

tdf