Circuit Tips?

[Redbird72]

I did my first circuit detail at the weekend, and found it a tad intense, to say the least! By the end of the hour, I was literally trembling from the concentration and effort.
Now everybody at the school made an big effort to insist that a couple of lessons from now I'll be in the rhythm of it and finding it much less stressful, with everything coming together much more easily. However, do any of you have any hints or tips for making the workload more manageable? I know my instructor is first base for this kind of information, but I now have a three week wait to my next lesson, and I'd be grateful for a little food for thought to chew over in the meantime ...
Thanks.

[ThePirateKing]

That is a bit like rubbing your tummy, patting your head and making a phone call all at the same time.

Don't forget to stand on one leg and fart the national anthem while you're at it.:}

Then try doing it twice as fast - it's a bit like a circuit at Denham (where I trained).

TPK:ok:

[Fright Level]

fart the national anthem while you're at it

Did you see the F1 car on Top Gear last night? They had their laptop running the engine in the pits and it played the tune.

[DogfighterF22]

I would fire up the flight simulator.

Chances are it has your airfield already installed on it.

Practice the theory there.

Naturally a control yoke, rudder pedals and headset help.

DF.

[llanfairpg]

Pre-landing check BUMPFFICHHL !!!!!!!!!!

Change school to one that dosnt teach folk lore and spend the extra time with LOOKOUT.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote::

Pre-landing check BUMPFFICHHL !!!!!!!!!!

Change school to one that dosnt teach folk lore and spend the extra time with LOOKOUT.

***************************************

Schools make more money by making something simple complex.

And it gives the instructors the false sense they are operating the space shuttle.

[llanfairpg]

And it takes just 1.5 seconds to hit another aircraft.

There are many ways of doing things Gemma, drinking one wine dosnt make you a wine expert and 21,000 hours dosnt make you a good instructor. Ive woiked with brand new instructors who are much better that their high hour counterparts.

There isnt even an airliner I have flown with that many pre-landing checks!

If you need a check list to remind you to put the wheels down, best stay on the ground

[tigerbatics]

G-EMMA, I see the value in giving a student a handy means of covering the necessary items prior to landing. What I don't see is the point of adding irrelevant items that the aeroplane does not have because you may one day fly a machine so equipped.

You should be taught to fly the aeroplane you are in and through getting to know that understand how to cover different items in different machines. A one size fits all strikes me as rather silly. 'Lets check the gear is down' when we know it can't be anything else looks daft to me.

[fireflybob]

I did my first circuit detail at the weekend, and found it a tad intense, to say the least! By the end of the hour, I was literally trembling from the concentration and effort.


I wonder how you are being taught circuits?

I often introduce one circuit demo at the end of the early sorties as an ice-breaker.

When I teach the circuit the first instructional detail will concentrate on (mainly) the azimuth pattern and how to Go Around from a) downwind, (b) base leg, (c) final and (d) demo of recovery from misjudged flare. This means that the student has been enabled to recover from an incorrectly executed circuit and/or go around due to other traffic.

From there onwards it depends a bit on the aptitude of the student but in the early days I place little emphasis on the actual landing and more on a well flown circuit and final approach and encouraging the student to make an early decision to go around if things dont look good.

Prelanding checks and even RT can be blended in when the student begins to get the idea of the circuit.

Hope this helps!

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm just going to pop in, say my bit, and then leave before things heat up!

Use the kitchen table as your runway, and 'fly' your circuit around it. Literally stand up and walk around it - see where it is (including piano keys etc.) from each point on your circuit and how it looks (over which shoulder, what sort of angle etc.). You'll be amazed how that basic bit of situational awareness 'training' will make things easier in the air.

Okay, you'll look a right t**t doing it, but who cares!

Sam.

On your kitchen circuit, also do your checks (er, whatever they are), your radio calls, what heading will you need for what course, etc. etc.

[bjornhall]

Not speaking from any deeper knowledge, but "one student to another"-type advice...

a) You asked for tips, and you got plenty, so one more then: Don't overthink it! It will come together with experience; at our stage, it is practice we need most.

b) Read up on and practice the checklist and procedures used at your school, but don't do it any other way, no matter how sensible some pprune advice might seem... If we take what our instructor says, add in some good ideas of our own, and a few good suggestions from elsewhere, it'll all be a fine mess in the end, even if the individual ideas are great (been there, done that ;)).

For instance, at my club we take a very different approach to landing checks from what G-EMMA (and others here) speak about... Maybe theirs is better, maybe ours is, but either way I'm not even considering changing until after I have my PPL! We have neither the knowledge nor the experience to go second-guessing our instructors, IMHO, so for better or worse, their method is the one we'll use...

c) Echoing the Flightsim advice, if you're even a tiny bit into such things... Has helped me tremendously, by being a far more immersive way of "dry flying". Not just for pattern training either; can go through the whole flight, including preflighting and actions on the ground before and after the flight, in the sim... Near useless (or worse!) for stick and rudder skills; superb as a procedure trainer! :ok:

[llanfairpg]

Gemma

Most of those checks are pointless thats why.

Hatches and Harnesses for instance--whats changed since your last check did you open the doors on landing?

I would leave the fuel pump on

U/C --ridiculous (landing wheels up mainly happens to PPLs who forget the checklist that they rely on to prop them up esp after a GA)

Pitch -- ridiculous

I mean why not check the cabin is depressurising too and the cabin crew are secure. (well you never know you might be fliyng an airliner one day, thats your argument)

The main reason is that I am most likely in a circuit with low hour pilots who think lookout is something to do with a bank raid. All of my attention is going to be focussed on lookout.

I think the chances of you landing wheels up in your Warrior are a bit slimmer than having a near miss in the circuit but as you already know I do not think or teach like others do.

I would aslo add that long lists encourage reading without doing(in my 20,000 hour experience)

[llanfairpg]

Just to take up what Firefly Bob is saying

He is far too nice to say what he is thinking.

Is your school the type that introuduces you to the complete circuit exercise in the first hour, RT as well, if so no wonder it is tiring.

Also notice FBs leaning towards Go Arounds rather than Landings at this stage. Its not a great landing you should be aiming for but the ability to make a great go around.

[bjornhall]

It is interesting to compare...

We only have five points on our landing checklist:
1. Altimeter -- Set
2. Fuel valve -- Both
3. Mixture -- Rich
4. Landing light -- On
5. Vth @ flaps 30 -- 60 - 70 KIAS

1 - 3 we get out of the way before even entering the pattern, 5 is not until on final. The only downwind 'check' is to switch on the landing light, which we do when opposite the touch down point, as we decelerate and add first notch of flaps. Flap handling is not even on the checklist. Checklists in the air are all memorized, but there are only 21 points all in all, so that is perfectly doable.

This is when flying the 172R or S; when forced to fly the N we have to remember the carb heat as well... But since those are different aircraft, we use different checklists and different speeds; still even us studes seem able to keep those different procedures apart, without resorting to 'generic' lists...

Which method is better? *shrugs* Will form an opinion on that once past my PPL exam! :)

[BackPacker]

I was also busy typing a response when I realised that it didn't contribute anything more than what Bjornall and other had said already.

The way I see it, there are two schools of thought:
- Come up with an acronym as long as you can manage, which includes every conceivable check that you might want to carry out in-flight, and do that just before landing. This ensures that you've done each and every check at least once during the flight. (Oh well, I'm overreacting but checking for example the hatches, for the first time since taking off, on downwind, sounds a bit unnecessary. If there's something wrong with the hatches you should have noted that earlier, shouldn't you?)
- Keep the downwind checks as short as possible, so maximum time is spent looking outside.

For me personally, I'm from the second school. My checklist works out as follows:
- FREDA check well before entering the circuit. This takes care of fuel management, instruments, radio settings etc.
- Dab the brakes two or three times to check pressure, and on most aircraft you can feel if the parking brake is engaged - the dabs will feel different with less "give". (The second and third dab are there to detect an engaged parking brake if the parking brake is a one-way valve type. You feel the buildup of pressure on the second or third dab.)
- Fuel pump on before entering the circuit, or anytime I'm operating below 1000' AGL
- Carb heat anytime RPM is below 2000.
- Mixture rich anytime before I make a power change.
- Lights anytime viz is poor, or when a lot of traffic is around. In good conditions, the aircraft seems to land perfectly fine without the landing lights on. But in bad conditions, the lights are on well before I enter downwind.
- Flaps is something I consider a flight control just like pitch, roll, yaw and throttle. I don't "check" flaps but "operate" them. Hence they're no "check" item.

Also interesting to read the POH. Or even better: have a look 'round the panel. A Warrior, for instance, requires a placard with the landing checklist to be in full view of the pilot:
Fuel on proper tank
Mixture rich
Electric fuel pump on
Seat backs erect
Flaps - set (white arc)
Fasten belts/harness
Air conditioner off

Sooo... Different ways of doing things. As long as you're a student, do as your instructor tells you. Later on, find a way that works for you, is safe and works across the range of aircraft you are flying. Anything from one or two memory items, to BUMPFITCCHC-like acronyms, to "Red, Blues, Greens, and we're cleared to land" to taking out a paper checklist, to using whatever is placarded in the cockpit.

[llanfairpg]

American check lists are designed to protect the manufacturer in the event of litigation. Mine are based on best practice, although I have never been CFI of the year( or month). Noticably as cliams increased so did the length of checklists

Published pre-landing checks are based on returning to an aerodrome after an en route flight not repetive circuit and landings.

Continually checking things that do not need checking shows lack of understanding and rigid rule book mentality both have little to do with airmanship and good judgement.

By the way to keep this on subject.

The best way to do anything is to do as simple as possible.

Ive seen instructors brief and conduct circuit training as if it was a military exercise, why? I am more intersted in the checks that you do on the ground than in the circuit. I could miss all of the checks mentioned above in all the posts and still fly safe circuits.

I should add that when I started instructing I worked for a school that had monsterous checks some need all the downwind leg to carry out the checks and all of that time was spent with the stude looking in = complete madness. Lookout the window and keep it simple

[Contacttower]

Published pre-landing checks are based on returning to an aerodrome after an en route flight not repetive circuit and landings.

Continually checking things that do not need checking shows lack of understanding and rigid rule book mentality both have little to do with airmanship and good judgement.

I would defend BUMFFPICHH as a good checklist for landing...but for doing circuits over and over again it is too much (in the words of one of my instructors) like sucking a dummy.

[Contacttower]

G-EMMA, like you, in the circuit was exactly where I learnt BUMFFPICHH and while training for the circuit I did do it every single time.

I have to say I am rather surprised at the bad reaction some posters have had to it, perhaps they've forgotten what it is like to be a student PPL or wrongly associate adherence to procedure with lack of judgement.


Continually checking things that do not need checking shows lack of understanding and rigid rule book mentality both have little to do with airmanship and good judgement.



llanfairpg are you an airline pilot? If you are then I find your comment slightly surprising considering that lack of SOPs is one of the reasons GA doesn't have the excellent safety record that the airlines do.

[Pitts2112]

Redbird,

Honest answer - don't sweat it. Just keep doing your best and it will all come together of it's own accord. Trust me. Really.

It's like driving. You probably can't even remember a time when it was all you could do to keep the car on the road and not hit oncoming lorries. Now you can probably go around a 3 lane roundabout on two wheels, downshifting to accelerate out of your exit, all while changing the CD, eating a burrito, and not hitting the lorry that's in the lane you want. And you just kind of got to that point with no real thought, just time behind the wheel.

Flying's the same way. It'll just magically work itself out and you won't even notice it happens until suddenly you'll realise you're bored on final approach because it's taking so long and there's nothing left to do. Yes, really. :)

Pitts2112

[llanfairpg]

lanfairpg are you an airline pilot? If you are then I find your comment slightly surprising considering that lack of SOPs is one of the reasons GA doesn't have the excellent safety record that the airlines do.

Having a simple practical pre-landing check is an SOP. The answer is yes and simple pre-landing checks are very much the feature of modern airliners.

I alsked a collegue of mine once why they had 3 pilots on the Trident he answered. One to hold the checklist, one to read it and one to action it.

Thankfully the new geneartion aircraft have a check list on a card rather than a book!

[Contacttower]

Each to his own I suppose.

But if you're training and one day you say to your instructor: "Actually I don't agree with what you've told me...I read blah blah blah on PPRuNe so I'm going to do it that way instead."

What sort of reaction would you get?

If you are training and taught BUMFFPICHH then I'd stick to that.

[llanfairpg]

It loses me on here sometimes, it really does, Contact tower, when did I learn Brakes are OFF, Undercarriage is FIXED, Mixture is RICH, Pitch is Fixed, Flaps, Fuel is on sufficient, FUEL PUMP IS ON, Altimeter is SET, DI is aligned, engine t's and p's are within limits, carb heat on, hatches and harness landing light is on.... ready for my first land away and with no need to reference a written checklist and also carrying out the actions, it was of course whilst flying circuits. :uhoh: It is pretty obvious I wouldn't have managed that lot when under the stress of my first land away at a new airfield without going over it in the circuit a few times.

Even worse having to do that lot at a strange airfield and navigate and do the radio and look out for other traffic--thats exactly why I have simple pre-land checks.

All your other checks are completed as Airfield Approach Checks normally FREDA. The time to set an altimeter is before you join a circuit not in it, same with the DI.

[digital.poet]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire...

The mnemonic that I was taught is 'BUMCOFFHHAC' for Brakes, Undercarriage, Mixture, Carb heat (hot), Oil temps/pressures, Fuel, Flaps, Hatches, Harnesses, Altitude, Carb head (cold). Usually done immediately after the downwind call (thought realistically, often during because of traffic).

When I first started this, I would break the checks up into the three pronounceable syllables, BUM, COFF and HHAC, pausing for a good lookout in between each. Its a good 'starter for 10' with the instructor around, but I found that as I did it more and more I would be doing the checks and looking out simultaneously.

llanfairpig, I bow to your vastly superior experience, but I do tend to think that it is easier for us student types to have boxes to tick at this point in our flying career. Your opinion that there should be less boxes to tick seems to be a valid one, but probably one to take up with the instructor community rather than confusing us poor students. At the early circuit stage of my training, if my instructor had told that one of the pre-landing steps was to open the door and jump out, I most likely would have complied :ok:

[BackPacker]

Oh, one other thing. Could we please stop calling them downwind checks, and call them pre-landing checks instead? What if you get a direct base join, or heaven forbid, a straight-in approach?

[llanfairpg]

DP

llanfairpig, I bow to your vastly superior experience, but I do tend to think that it is easier for us student types to have boxes to tick at this point in our flying career. Your opinion that there should be less boxes to tick seems to be a valid one, but probably one to take up with the instructor community rather than confusing us poor students. At the early circuit stage of my training, if my instructor had told that one of the pre-landing steps was to open the door and jump out, I most likely would have complied :ok:

I appreciate what you saying, obviously you must follow what your instructor says or more correctly the school or club policy.

This is a forum for debate and what I am suggesting is that you consider that there may be other alternatives to many of the things that you are doing now as a students and may like to consider for instance if you ever fly into Oshkosh or Silverstone when the British Grand Prix is on!. Anyone can blindly follow the instructions of another but progress in any aspect in life starts by questioning why we do certain things and could there be better way of doing something. If pilots were constrained to the thoughts of their original instructors we would all still be flying around in canvas bi planes with limited panels. (Mind you I quite like the sound of that)I use the definition of airmanship when trying to judge on what action to take.

Airmanship is to take the most effective and safest course of action in a given set of circumstances.

To my thinking when flying in an ATZ where there is more chance of meeting other student pilots who are also involved in encylopeadic checks the most effective and safest course of action is to dedicate as much time as possible on lookout, removing unnesecarry checks achieves this(I think). You may be able to recite the checks in groups or whatever but that will still distract your attention away from the radio. You may be able to check the gauges on the otherside of the cockpit and check the passengers harness and lookout and listen to the radio and build up a picture of the circuit traffiic and call downwind all at the same time but you see i am not that good, I cannot plus I am lazy I just want to sit back relax and concentrate on the traffic situation, listen to the radio, look out the window and call downwind.

When I fly in an ATZ I am frightened and its a good feeling I hope I will always retain. The experinece you bow to of mine(and please do not as your opinion is just as important as mine) includes having an Islander fly underneath me at Wellesbourne downwind with a student and carry on downwind and land and he never saw me once. Having a pilot fly underneath me when I with a student and was at 300 feet on finals at Bannf. Having an idiot in a twin join on the wrong base leg at Wellesbourne and nearly wipe us out.Having several near misses with joining aircarft in various circuits etc. I am also very aware of why some Cherokee 180s in this country have windows fitted in the roof.

But my major experince is sitting beside students trying to get to grips with getting a radio call in, notice I said trying to get a radio call in and then doing a litany of checks most of which are not neccesary. As a CFI when I wrote the SOPs my main concern was for the safety of students and not to encourage them to check whether the door was locked and they were strapped in downwind. You may well be able to cope with doing all those checks and perhaps reciting a monologue too but you must remember that as a CFI I must write policy that can be safely carried out by everyone and I have had students from Richard Branson to students who could not even write their names. In PPL training you come across a very very wide range of abillity and a resposnsible CFI will always take that into consideration when standardisng or writing policy.

[tigerbatics]

That sounds good sense to me llanfairpg. Times might have changed but when I learned in 1976 check lists were very frowned upon and only checks relevant to the particular machine were included in any pre -landing scan.

It seems today there is desire to include in basic training a universal ritual intended to be applicable to all machines. I really think this is wrong.

How is this supposed to translate to post qualification flying? Always go through some sort of pantomime or what? My flying time is overwhelmingly in Pitts, Stampes and Tigers. There are no relevant checks so am I expected to imagine I am flying something else and perhaps pretend to lower the undercarriage, change to a fuel tank I don't have etc??.

It is very clear from this forum that everyone's attitudes are formed by their own type of flying and particular experience. In my case my experience is very deep but also very very narrow so it is interesting to hear what others think when the 'common ground' of circuits and landing is concerned.

[llanfairpg]

My message is simple, forgetting to do your pre landing checks downwind will not cause you much grief but flying into another aircraft will.

[PompeyPaul]

However, do any of you have any hints or tips for making the workload more manageable?Take what people say here with extreme caution. The person you should be asking this of is your instructor. For example I've had people on here tell me how I should be recruiting people at work, without even knowing what industry I work in! The only thing I'd offer is get that BUMFPICH (or whatever checklist you use) memorised, and make sure you can whizz through it (with precision, not rushed) quickly.

[17thhour]

Some of the comments made here are totaly one sided.

Some of you are screaming and shouting at "G-EMMA" etc about doing the check BUMPFFICHHL, well whats wrong with considering undercarriage from the start? Wouldn't you prefer to have it installed as a natural reaction to simply consider the undercarriage? It probably takes no more than half a second for the thought to pass through memory whilst maintaining a lookout. As for the hatches and harnesses, how do you know that your pax- possibly small children- havent removed theirs etc.

Someone was moaning about the fuel aspect for christ sake, certain aircraft may require a touch and go on the fullest tank. Theirs that sorted.

And talking about: "why dont you check the cabin crew are sitting while ur at it" etc, well, i think we should keep this general aviation

[Pitts2112]

How about "FUN"?

Where's the chance to just have a jolly good time in all this pedantry?

Has the weather been that bad for that long???

Some of you guys spend way too much time "aviating" and not enough time flying. Give the wingroot mounting bolts a break and lighten up a little.

Pitts2112

[llanfairpg]

How about FUN & SAFETY, that way you get to have FUN on the next flight too

[eharding]

I try to bear in mind the bad things that may potentially happen at any phase of flight, and act to mitigate them - this applies in the circuit as much as anywhere else. The exact actions depend on the type of aircraft being flown. In the circuit, I try to avoid the following;

1) Flying into someone else.

2) Gliding into the ground some distance from the runway.

3) Hitting the downwind hedge.

4) Hitting the runway in an expensive fashion.

5) Hitting the upwind hedge.

(1) involves looking out of the window. In the Pitts, this also involves rolling 20 degrees left and right to see round the comedy oversized interplane struts every few seconds. I don't feel the urge to do this in the Yak, because people would accuse me of flying like a gumby.

(2) involves engine and fuel management. I don't feel the urge to check the mixture control in the Yak, because there isn't one - nor the carb heat control in the Pitts, for the same reason. They both require fuel, although the former uses it hilariously quickly.

(3) involves flying a controlled, stable approach, ideally from a position where should my efforts at mitigating (2) are sub-standard, I can still arrive on the runway. Quietly.

(4) involves having the wheels meet the right spot on runway in as gentle a fashion as possible, and that the propellor doesn't meet the runway in any fashion at all. In the Yak, this involves looking at three green lights, and three indicator sticks, and then telling no-one in particular over the radio that I can see the three green lights. In the Pitts, it involves making sure I have my lucky underpants on. I don't tell anyone I'm looking at three green lights on final in the Pitts, because I can't see any. Partly because there aren't any fitted, but mostly because I've got my eyes shut.

(5) involves a bit of (4), but also being prepared to miss the runway completely and hoof round to have another go at it. In both cases, attempting to do so with a coarse prop is going to be tricky, and in the Yak attempting to do so with the cowl gills shut can cook the engine remarkably quickly. There are handy levers on both types to manage this. I don't pretend to check the cowl flaps on the Pitts, because there aren't any - and if there were, it would be a Model 12, and I wouldn't be sat here typing this - I'd still be out there, in the dark, in the seventh consecutive hour of a torque roll in the overhead. Laughing.

What I'm trying to say, in a round-about way, is that learning slightly dodgy-sounding and long-winded acronyms for checks is all well and good, but what you're really trying to achieve is avoiding (1)-(5) above. In different aircraft, there are different ways of going about it - so chanting checklist items about features your aircraft doesn't have isn't going to help much, but if it makes you happy, what the hell.

[Redbird72]

Thanks so much for all your contributions, particularly the reassurance that it does get easier. I think part of the reason for my anxiety is down to most of the exercises to date being "set pieces" (for want of a better phrase) and fairly straight forward to drill and get into my head. Now I'm having to pull several together in the circuit.

The dinner table technique sounds good (i haven't got flight sim software) and can't be more embarrassing than getting caught practicing RT while driving! :}

I apologise if anyone got the impression that my instructor had thrown me in the deep end - I don't believe he did, I certainly got let off RT for the day! Whilst I found the session intense and frustrating, I wasn't drowning - just left with a lot to chew over.

Oh and G-EMMA - good luck with the nav!

Ta,

Red.:ok:

[Capot]

Just remember the three "F"s, once you're solo, and you won't come to grief.

Fuel,

Fan (only if it's variable),

and errr, Depart.

Nothing else really matters.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How is a PPL student supposed to concentrate on flying in the circuit when they are forced to do a check list that would confuse a two man crew on the Airbus A380?

[llanfairpg]

Ah, Chuck--common sense is alive and well after all!

RED--No need to walk around a dining room table--get a small model aircraft and take it around a square on that table.

Also brief a circuit and draw it on an A4 sheet

For RT practice, talk into a recorder, playback and learn, get an airband radio.

you can learn a lot about landing by watching other students land

The three Fs wat a load of FS!

Maintain thy airspeed correctly or the ground will come up and smite thee dead.

LOOKOUT --you never see the one that hits you.

If there is any doubt there is no doubt, GO AROUND.

Theres 3 that actually make sense!

[eharding]

How is a PPL student supposed to concentrate on flying in the circuit when they are forced to do a check list that would confuse a two man crew on the Airbus A380?


I don't know about the 380, but in light of the recent 340 event I'll add the following note-to-self to avoid.

(6) Taxiing at full power into large concrete walls.

[llanfairpg]

Even better make a note of this

Never action a checklist or checklist items when airmanship dicatates that your attention would be better employed in another area

[Mungo Man]

Getting any flying licence or rating is akin to jumping through hoops. Once you have shown the examiner what he wants to see you can develop your own style. I used to teach BUMFITCH when I instructed but now when I fly for fun I never use it because I know how I need everything set and thats that, however I do think the structure of checks can be useful during the early stage. Anyway, there is hardly anything that's critical to landing in a simple single: Fuel pump is a good back up, flaps are optional unless on a short runway, prop and gear is fixed, mixture, well who ever touches it unless you go high or fly a bigger single... but lets not go there!

As a point of interest the landing checks I use at work are...

Cabin signal.... ....ding ding
Gear...................down
Flaps..................45
landing clearance.....received.

Thats it. Keep it simple!

[Neptunus Rex]

For what it's worth. Use whatever pnemonic pre-landing check you have been taught. + Look out. + Listen out.

Then, on finals, use the "Embarassment Check" PUF.

Propellor
Undercarriage
Flap

That should keep you out of trouble in ANY GA aeroplane.

Neppie

:ok:

[llanfairpg]

Reciting PUF on the aircraft I fly on can result in some crew resource management problems!

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

How about:

Fly a proper sized circuit, rather than a tour of the locality whilst your instructor tells you what a tw@t you have been. The bigger the circuit, the more words, therefore the bigger the tw@t...!

Stick to the correct circuit height.

Join the circuit correctly, not on an 8nm straight in approach and then cut everyone up who has bothered to do it correctly.

Dont descend to 100ft 5 miles out and then hedge hop to short finals. Whatever happened to a well judged glideslope?

Dont land 3/4 of the way down the runway. The numbers are there to aim at!

After landing on a grass runway, dont just wander aimlessly down the runway looking for a turn off if there isnt one. Think of all those behind you...

Dont fly over the noise sensitive village on crosswind leg , even when the AIP says not to. Just modify your circuit join procedure...

[llanfairpg]

Join the circuit correctly, not on an 8nm straight in approach and then cut everyone up who has bothered to do it correctly.

Please enlighten us how joining on long finals is incorrect

By the way runway numbers are to mark a runways orientation not for the purpose of providing an aiming point.

[Slopey]

Dont land 3/4 of the way down the runway. The numbers are there to aim at!


Depends on the runway. At EGPD, landing 3/4 of the way down (on 16) is quite a good plan unless you want a very long taxi down the runway to the club ramp being told pointedly to expedite as the easyjet on final gets a little bigger in the rear view.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Please enlighten us how joining on long finals is incorrect

By the way runway numbers are to mark a runways orientation not for the purpose of providing an aiming point.

...and nosewheels are to stop the propeller from hitting the ground, but since when has that prevented countless numbers of people from using them as a pivot point on landing?

Sorry LlanfairPG, my tongue in cheek humour must have gone straight over your head. Unfortunately, there is no icon to use..:rolleyes::ugh:

[llanfairpg]

Your right it has and still dosnt supply an answer

[17thhour]

so what concensus we coming to then?

lets tell the pre-solo students to just "have fun" and if they get into trouble, remember, "its only a single"

?
remember the original poster is pre-solo, and we're telling him/her to just forget the checks, have some fun, lay it on the ground with your eyes closed since its "just a single"..

ayee. :ugh:

[llanfairpg]

No one said forget the checks

[Flap 80]

LLanfairpg......how many other eyes glazed over when you mentioned the Trident.
Saying how many hours you have logged without being asked is akin to boasting about the size of your wallet.
Personally I let my attitude with students both on a Pa28 and a B747 be my judge.Good luck to Gemma at EGSL,she has a great professional attitude.
Llanfair...you sound very irritated...not because the BAFC at WAP has ben sold I hope.
chill out!!

[Fright Level]

GEMMA, don't let the posts making comparisons with airliner checklists demean what you are trying to do. Of course airliner checklists are more simple, they act mainly as a back up where systems warnings wouldn't occur or if they did they'd cause issues like a rejected take off or go around (expensive and potentially embarrassing but not necessarily killers).

On the Boeing 767, the basic factory "before take off" checklist is simply Flaps & Strobes. Everything else is taken care of by warning systems if you miss something. Of course such a warning would be threatening to one's career path so SOP's (standard operating procedures) exist to make sure everything's covered before you take off or land. Often that includes an extended company generated checklist. On a light plane, you're not covered by sophisticated systems, so do as much (or little) as you need to make sure you land safely and are not going to be embarrassed by anything.

For GA flying, I've made up my own laminated checklists, based on the POH as a reference but in a sensible order, either a clockwise/anticlockwise scan, or related to phase of flight (eg not putting the prop to fine downwind and being a noisy neighbour etc).

Good luck with the rest of your course.

[trafficcontrol]

When I come to Undercarriage, I give a visual check too! ( i am on fixed undercarriage) you know just to make sure they haven't fallen off at some point! Thats looking out the window right? :}


Im just kidding! :-P Pprune always makes me laugh! Love it!

[llanfairpg]

LLanfairpg......how many other eyes glazed over when you mentioned the Trident.

Yes it was a lovely aircraft

Saying how many hours you have logged without being asked is akin to boasting about the size of your wallet.

Gosh I never knew that, no wonder I keep my wallet in the garage. Hours are a bit like boasting about the size of aircraft you fly too I suppose?

Personally I let my attitude with students both on a Pa28 and a B747 be my judge.Good luck to Gemma at EGSL,she has a great professional attitude.

Yes you do sound so wonderful and its great that you cabin crew instruct in your spare time

Llanfair...you sound very irritated...not because the BAFC at WAP has ben sold I hope.

I dont actually know what BAFC at WAP means but I am sure you do. I never suffer from irritation apart from the occasional bout of Rangoon crutch. Ben on the other hand is a charity I support and they do great Christmas cards

chill out!!

Oh I am and thanks for the opportunity for a laugh.

PS mines a coffee, white no sugar!

[llanfairpg]

While I was 'chilling out' (and still laughing) I found the website address for BEN

It is a charity for people who have worked in the motor trade

Lovely cards if you are a classic petrol head

http://www.ben.org.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4

[trafficcontrol]

BAFC is just British Airways Flying Club.

:)

TC

[llanfairpg]

Oh I see he thinks I fly for XX, Christ I can feel a large dose of Rangoon crutch coming on!

I was talking to a friend of mine who has gone to fly with a certain airline at LHR. I said I notice most of your guys pull up to the Cat 3 hold at Heathrow even in VMC and some of our guys are doing it too, has there been a change I do not know about?

Quick as you like he came back with;

"No its just that we have a larger percentage of wxxxxxrs in xxxx than you have!":O

PS hey I am important Ive got lots of flap!

[17thhour]

no one said forget the checks

well people are implying cutting them down to like three items.

[llanfairpg]

There seem to be three schools of thought.

1 Lengthy checks as in the handling notes are OK

2. Only checks appropriate to type are acceptable

3. Only checks appropriate to type and situation are acceptable

You will never get everyone to agree which is correct or which is better.

All I can say is I have tried and taught all three methods and I prefer circuit checks which allow the minimum distraction and maximum heads outside.

I modified my views after watching students struggling with checks and radio calls when I felt they should be looking outside or concentrating on mentally noting the radio calls made by other aircraft.

[Flap 80]

llanfair..what is your problem with cabin crew giving Instruction.Is this a sign of your mysogonistic attitude to your female crew and why you are so negative to G-emma?? I think we all know you like looking out by now!!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This is the only sensible answer.

---------------------------------------------------
Quote:::

All I can say is I have tried and taught all three methods and I prefer circuit checks which allow the minimum distraction and maximum heads outside.

-----------------------------------------------------

Excessively long check lists in simple training aircraft are not only degrading safety in the circuit it is screwing the student by making for unnecessary work.

[llanfairpg]

Hey Big Flaps instead of trying to make everything personal and provoke a school girl argument why dont you try to just comment on the thread.

PS I do not have a problem with anyone giving instruction, including you!

By the way have a look at this

Post from Flap 80 on the Flight Deck Forum


Unfortunate experience for the gentleman involved but this day and age the opportunities for a maverick to buck the system are negligible in Civil aviation. May well have not been the case in a Tornado at 500kt and 100ft but I wish the adaptability that Pablo saw to enhance his survival in Iraq could have been brought over to Civil aviation. The FO,irrespective of his experience would have been feeling uncomfortable at this breach of Company procedures. How easy it would have been for Pablo,mindful of the PR advantages in flying the football team, to have sought approval prior to take of both with MYT and HIS CREW prior to taking such a Cavalier step. All this gunk about nervous pax needing to visit the F/deck just does not wash.
regards
Capt 20,000hrs P1 Jet 12,000

But on this thread Flap 80 said


Saying how many hours you have logged without being asked is akin to boasting about the size of your wallet. Hey Flap 80 seems you practice double standards or is it just that you are a hypocrite or perhaps those Big Flaps have gone to your head?

[John Farley]

Redbird

I do feel your understandable cry for help has not been addressed as simply as it might.

There are two tasks going on when you fly a circuit – handling the aircraft and operating the aircraft. The two things are in no way connected and each can be mastered as a separate topic before they are then combined.

Handling the aircraft is about controlling the speed, height, flight path, size and shape of pattern, use of flaps and the associate power settings, the flare and so on.

All the other stuff is about operating the aircraft - checks, dealing with aircraft systems, lookout and ATC matters.

Personally if I had a student who was struggling I would try and decide which of the two tasks was giving them the most trouble and I would then carry out that task leaving the student free to concentrate on the other. Once my student was happy with one task I would take that over and get them to do the other.

If in doubt (both tasks are giving you problems) try and master the handling first until you can ‘fly’ the circuit really well with your instructor doing all the operating stuff. Then ask him to ‘fly’ the circuit while you master the operational tasks.

This is aimed at avoiding that overloaded feeling which results in people making a mess of both tasks and therefore making little apparent progress. Especially if they are faced with long periods between lessons.

So far as your point about what to think about between lessons the above may give you some food for thought. It is perfectly possible to draw a circuit pattern out on a sheet of paper and annotate it with the information to carry out EITHER the handing OR the operation. Use a separate drawing for each topic as an aid to memorising the info.

A final tip would be to remember that at different parts of the circuit the priority you have to give to each task will vary. For example in the flare over the numbers you should not let ATC chatter distract you, but just before you turn base news of three aircraft ahead when you only thought there were two may have to be dealt with at once.

JF

[ModernDinosaur]

Hear hear, JF. As always, an excellent post.

[llanfairpg]

Its good but its already been said in previous posts

[DeeCee]

To the original poster;

I cannot believe some of the total rubbish that has been posted here in response to your first statement.

There are some helpful comments, if you can pick them out........

Listen to your Instructor and do what he tells you. Everybody struggles at first, but it comes right after a while.

Have fun.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There are some helpful comments, if you can pick them out........

Could you please pick out the helpful comments so we can ignore the total rubbish?


Listen to your Instructor and do what he tells you.

But what if your instructor is a very poor instructor who does not understand how to fly let alone teach same?

[llanfairpg]

OK Chuck

How about

Never trust one man, one engine or one gauge.

Works on forums too!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

AAhhhh, how true....

...however responding to others opinions is why a forum remains in use...

And if you are prepared to insult a group be prepared to support your comments.

:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E :E

[Skysurfer1]

Hey,
What I did for circuts was simple. Not in any particular order. And

1st...Don't panic.

2nd.... Follow your checklists and I found that kept me calm and in control.

3rd....Don't rush anything. If it takes two or three times to hear the ATIS, fine!

4th....Be clear and consise on the radio. Don't ever hog the radio. When your in the circut, keep in mind where everyone is.

5th....Keep the circut in raceish trackish pattern (More like a rectangle). Its good practice, because those joining the circut know where everyone should be. As my instructor said "Keep everything square". When you take off, maintain runway heading then turn 90 degrees for base, then 90 more for downwind etc...

6th....Know what heights you should be at, at certain landmarks! On base, turing final, I should be at 1000' at the apartments. Instructors can help you with this when your first learning.

7th...LOOK OUT!!! Know exactly where everyone is.

8th...Don't wander too far away from the circut, the instructor/examiner could pull an engine failure and you (I hope) want to make the runway and/or field.

9th...Don't forget any of your landing checks...for a twin GUMP checks were good....I sometimes forgot landing flaps or carb heat...not a biggie, but shouldn't be missed :O. We all get fluffed up at the end with concentration on landing perfectly, that we sometimes forget something.

10th...KEEP LANDING SPEED... 70kts...70kts...70kts....lol.

11th...as soon as you land....full power, flaps to take off and carb heat. Rotate!

12th...dont' forget crosswind imputs!

Most of all HAVE FUN! Circuts are my favorite excercise. They always called me Queen of the Circut at my school! SO MUCH FUN!

That's all I can think of. Oh practice soft field/short field take offs and landings instead of normal landings, thats easy...do something a bit harder each time.

Hope this somewhat helps!

[Penguina]

How are you getting on now, Redbird? (Or is the weather holding you up?)

Apologies is it's already been said somewhere, but if you're finding height control taking up too much time, make sure you're taking the time to level off properly, allowing the speed to build before reducing power and holding the attitude firmly while you do. So many of my students set themselves up wrong and then spend the whole of the rest of the circuit being preoccupied with needing constant changes of power and attitude - on top of everything else they need to do.

Orientate yourself by looking at the runway and memorise the DI headings for each leg in case you lose your bearings. It helps.

If I think of any other common things that come up, I'll let you know!

[Skysurfer1]

Hey again,:p

I would let your instructor know the difficulities first. Are you a solo student yet? I'm sorry, I have not read any of the postings on here.

Then I would maybe go to the practice area and work on your straight and level flight and while your out there, get some of your excercies in. Also you should know the power settings for each part of the circut. Once your at the power setting, TRIM! I also never fly with two hands. I use my left hand for the stick and then my right hand if free for the throttles etc... But remember practice makes perfect. Also, its difficult to keep altitude if there are a lot of thermals around, which this time of year where I live are non existant! I once encountered a thermal that shot me up 300'!!! If that happens and your in an exam, don't worry, they know the conditions of that day :).

Relax up there! Enjoy what you are doing and it will soon come to you!:ok:

[Proof Reader]

Redbird

I note that you have received a lot of advice but I would repeat the sound advice given by various people that you should listen to your Instructor.
When you are learning to fly you are in the hands of your instructor. He/she is your guru and, unless you have some reason to request a change of instructor, it is his/her advice and instruction to which you should listen. Pose your query to your instructor and try to take his/her advice without question to improve your skills and get your license. You can then join in the debate about whether the advice and instruction you were given was the best.

I also note Penguina's post of yesterday asking how you are getting on now as we haven't heard from you whether you have found any of the advice helpful since the 4th December.

[Redbird72]

I'm still here - had a little trip away for the weekend, so am catching up on posts now!

Still very grateful for all the input - I can't believe it's still running.
A good combination of things to chew over myself (such as getting the sequence off pat in my head - memorising the numbers and dare I say it, the mnemonics) and some to discuss with my instructor.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to have another go until the weekend after next - thus the consulting with the pprune oracle rather than the man in the r/h seat. Still, the way the weather's been, I don't think I'd have got any practice this weekend, even if I'd booked!

[Redbird72]

I got my second bash today, a bit sooner than expected due to a cancellation. It went sooo much better.:)
I revised the headings, speeds, checks and RT calls over brekkie, was slightly disturbed to find we were going the other way down the runway but managed to relax and give it my best shot. Being a left hand circuit may have been a help (on the usual rwy direction we have a right hander for noise abatement), the view was certainly better.
I don't know whether it was the advice or simply airing my worries and getting them out of my head, but whatever; thanks prooners :ok:

[bjornhall]

Awesome! :)

[PompeyPaul]

Had an interesting spin on this, the other night whilst doing night circuits. All the cabin lights were switched off to simulate failure. I whistled through the checks as I normall do

Breaks off
Undercarriage is down
Mixture is rich
Flaps as required
Fuel pump on, landing light on
Propeller fixed
Instruments, ah fuggit, I can't see a thing, it all sounds about right
Carb heat on
Hatches \ harnesses secure.

The thing is, missing out the 'I' part it threw the rest of the chain out, took a while to get used to.

Amazing how it's possible to fly circuits purely on the attitude and sound of the engine. It's nice to get the instruments back, but I do wonder if sometimes they are just a bit of a distraction ?

Night flying, it's da mutz :ok:

[Pitts2112]

Pompey Paul,

NOW you're learning how to fly, as opposed to how to drive an airoplane. Yes, you can not only fly circuits, but you can pretty much just fly based on attitude and sound. You need a few more things along the way (altitude is tough to guage by eye), but for the most part, once you become really familiar with an airoplane, you find yourself using the instruments just to verify what you already know from look, sound, and feel. Disclaimer here is talking about VFR flying only (IMC is a bit of a different issue and a bit harder to do without instruments. :) )

[MidgetBoy]

Try doing circuits for 6 hours straight. You'll get used to it.. =P

[RatherBeFlying]

Where I fly power (single engine, fuel on both or just on,fixed gear and prop), we have the checklists on laminated cards and follow them religiously on the ground.

On downwind, we just do a flow from left to right that touches and calls out everything of concern and finally a tap on the brakes.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Try doing circuits for 6 hours straight. You'll get used to it..

Even better would be to do one minute circuits with some breaks in the six hours, that will give you 360 touch and goes.

Versus six hours at some of todays airports where training is being done, where you may only get around 25 circuits.

[thirtysomething]

To the original poster. Dont worry Chap , the first circuit was a head flap for me also. I constantly felt behind the curve and pressured for time
What checks you have been instructed to do , learn on the ground. I also found it useful to get out to the aircraft early and practice them as if I were flying before doing the pre-flight checks.
Visualize each segment of the circuit also ( again practicing this in the plane before start helped me ) Ask questions in advance about power / attitude / trim / flap settings etc if your not clear .. doing that meant I spent less concentration on asking things like that on the fly.
I found it helpful to pick out points to fly over especially when turning from one leg to the next. Where exactly you are and where you should be turning are things you can cross of the " worry list " fairly quickly.
Dont expect too much of yourself. I seen many people , myself included get fustrated with slow progress and waste time and money bashing away when calling it a day might have been better. I think less time spread out is better than a higher condensed quantity. I think this is a place where more people throw away good money after bad. ( just my opinion )
Somebody mentioned trim , the better you can do that the easier your life will be as you wont be chasing the plane about the sky as it wanders randomly.

It took me a while to " sit back " and relax , I was leaning over the control collum , like i was driving round a hair pin at first. :ouch: Took a conscious effort from me at first.

Slowly but surely my experience was that you start to feel on top of things and have moments of joy when you nail it ( in my case quickly followed by a f### up to remind me to keep trying harder :) ) .

Pretty much everything came for me with time and now circuits are what im looking forward to the most in my flying. Everybody finds em tough in the beginning as i could see and did.Goes without saying , enjoy it , its all leading to many magic firsts..

[IFMU]

Amazing how it's possible to fly circuits purely on the attitude and sound of the engine. It's nice to get the instruments back, but I do wonder if sometimes they are just a bit of a distraction ?
Here's a funny story, sure to draw scorn from some but that's ok as I'm a big boy.

I was flying the super cub after spending most of my time in the pawnee and in gliders, and the panel layout is different. I flew 3 or 4 circuits looking at the tach and interpreting it as airspeed. It more or less worked, as it was higher on downwind, and lower on final. I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the gauges, I had my eyes out the window like usual. When I realized what I was doing I had to chuckle. The airspeed was where it belonged.

I had long considered my skills to be lopsided, better on the stick & rudder, weak elsewhere. I'm now working on the instrument rating, I find it challenging and fun. And, it's making me a better rounded pilot. But I do think it should be a fundamental skill that you can fly the airplane by looking out the window and feeling what it is doing. And, I think it is something you can learn as a student, you don't have to be a hotshot with lots of hours to learn basic attitude flying. But you have to be exposed to it.

-- IFMU