is it that obvious ?

[airyana]

written on the POOLEYS FB7 flight board.

V - A
T
T
F
M
P
F
G
G
H
H

also:

P - L
B
U
M
P
F
F
H
H

on the following link described as:
"Mnemonic Vital Actions and Downwind Check Lists."

http://www.pooleys.com/prod_detail.cfm?product_id=158&PageNum_rs_product=1&product_category_id=8&product_sub_category_id=51

can someone tell me what they stand for ???

[airyana]

http://http://www.pooleys.com/images/products/158.jpghttp://www.pooleys.com/images/products/158.jpg

[Gertrude the Wombat]

P - L
B
U
M
P
F
F
H
H

Rejoining / downwind checks.

There are lots of versions of this.

The one I was taught was

Brakes
Undercarriage
Mixture
Fuel
Hatches
Harness

One might guess that the P is (propeller) Pitch but I've never flown anything for which it was relevant. Dunno what the other F is. And if you're flying at night there'll be something to do with lights in there as well?

[Mikehotel152]

P might be for Pitch as you would normally put it on coarse when on downwind.

The other 'F' is normally for flaps isn't it?

[hobbit1983]

Fuel Pump? (for either P or F..)

[Mike Cross]

V - A
T
T
F
M
P
F
G
G
H
H

Looks like a variant of the old Three Male Prostitutes Fornicating Gents Hourly (or Three Mince Pies For Good Health if you prefer.) 3 actions per letter:-

Temps within limits
Trim set
Throttle Friction set

Mixture rich
Mags on both
Master switches on

Pitch set to fine
Pitot Heat on
Pressures (fuel & oil) within limits

Flaps set for take-off
Fuel pump on if required, set to correct tank, sufficient for flight
Full and free movement of the controls

Generator charging
Gyros and gauges set and working
Gills set as required

Hatches secure
Harnesses secure
Hour (note take-off time)

Mike

[airyana]

nice one mike.

so they're not that obvious! how come mr pooleys has them written on his board as though they were standard ...

[Ivor_Novello]

funny how mnemonics should make things easier and here we are discussing what they actually mean :)

is it not much easier and more logical to scan the panel left to right and check everything is the way it should be ?
If there isn't an undercarriage lever at all, chances are that the undercarriage will be down :)

Was taught to do it that way in the PFL checks and I find it easier than BUMPFHHing all the time

regards

Ivor

[tigerbatics]

Spot on Ivor! I don't want to be in the circuit with some chap looking at a check list or printed letters on a knee board trying to remember what to do next. I want some one whose head is up and eyes are outide the cockpit.

The proper approach to check lists in basic aeroplanes was taught me by my instructor. I'd bought one to look keen before I started my lessons. When he saw it he said, 'what do you think you're going to learn in a bloody airliner'. He threw it in the bin.

His view point was that in simple aeroplanes it should not be beyond the ability of a pilot to learn his machine properly. A scan bottom left round to bottom right did the trick.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Flow checks are great.

However there are several critical items that should be confirmed before you take off or land.

Take off::

Confirm that the fuel tanks you have selected actually have sufficient fuel in them.....and that your flight controls are moving free and in the proper direction if you can see them.

Landing::

Confirm your landing gear is in the correct position for the landing you are about to make.

[Mike Cross]

A lot of the stuff in my list above is superfluous in the Luscombe:-

Pitch set to fine - wot that?
Pitot Heat on - ????
Pressures (fuel & oil) within limits - Oil I understand - but fuel?
Flaps set for take-off - Flaps???
Fuel pump on if required, set to correct tank, sufficient for flight - Fuel Pump???
Gills set as required - Gills???

All a bit of a mystery really:bored:

[bookworm]

funny how mnemonics should make things easier and here we are discussing what they actually mean

Mnemonics are intended to make such sequences easy to remember through single letters. The real failing of this flight board is that they have the opportunity to write on the full word for each item, but don't. The initial letters are the easy part!

[Check my bad SLF]

- - - P might be for Pitch as you would normally put it on coarse when on downwind.



Er, surely you mean fine pitch (max RPM) to increase drag on the approach and increase climb performance in the event of a go around? Or is this type specific to whatever you're flying?

That's what I've always been taught.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'm going to open myself up to maybe getting some negative comments from some here.....

......I personally never use full fine pitch in piston engine airplanes during the approach for a landing...I do however move the pitch control / 's to the full fine position as I close the throttle /'s for the landing.

I find that to work just fine as it is easier on the engine and I don't have to put up with all that noise caused by high RPM. As to increasing drag on the approach there are other ways to do that if needed.

[deice]

The point with moving pitch to full fine on approach is to be prepared for a go-around or the need for full power, me thinks. Most engines will probably handle a light overboost (ie MP higher than RPM) but the old radials weren't that forgiving, I think the idea has remained from that era. So long as you don't forget to shove the prop forward with the throttle it shouldn't be a problem. But, how many don't forget?

[Fright Level]

Red Green & Blue for me:

Red - Mixture Rich
Green - Gear Down
Blue - Prop Forward

[Chuck Ellsworth]

May I comment on your post deice and do so only from the position of what I have been doing since I started flying?


The point with moving pitch to full fine on approach is to be prepared for a go-around or the need for full power, me thinks.

You are correct, there are many pilots who believe that.

However the go around poses no problem when you apply go around power in the proper manner....RPM selected for the power desired...then increase to desired power.

Most engines will probably handle a light overboost (ie MP higher than RPM) but the old radials weren't that forgiving, I think the idea has remained from that era.

True most engines handle some overboost but why risk overboosting in the first place when it is so simple to increase RPM with increased power?

I was never taught to increase RPM on the approach unless there was some very unusual need for higher power such as unusual turbulence. We were taught to make power changes as needed when needed and to avoid like the plague using an RPM high enough to produce drag on the engine during a descent. ( Radial engines. )


So long as you don't forget to shove the prop forward with the throttle it shouldn't be a problem. But, how many don't forget?

And therein lies the problem....if you are trained to do it the correct way from the start it is not a problem....it's sort of like when you want to climb you don't move the elevator control foward.... (unless you are inverted.)

Anyhow that is how I have been doing it and it has worked quite well for me, and that is what I teach.

The worst enemy of a radial engine is a throttle / pitch control monkey.

[Mikehotel152]

Oops, brain and hands weren't in sync there. :ugh::mad:

I meant that I would put pitch to fine on downwind but I am interested to hear that there are those who don't.

I suppose if you stick to the old maxim: 'Rev up, throttle down' you'll be fine at the right time...;) gettit? gettit? 'fine at the right time'! 'fine' ....! :}

Ha ha ha...hmmm, not funny was it...nope...not at all....:(

I'll go to bed now...

:zzz:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:

I meant that I would put pitch to fine on downwind but I am interested to hear that there are those who don't.

**************************************

Why abuse your engine when there is no need to?

You are descending during the approach to land.....why abuse your engine when gravity supplies the force to go down?

[Mikehotel152]

Because that's what the owner, my FI and the checklist supplied with the aircraft told me to do. I imagine a lot of aircraft owners do the same without questioning why.

As a relatively low hour PPL holder I don't ignore that kind of advice because I don't know any better. That doesn't mean it's the right way to do things, so I'm always open to other opinions.

If it were my aircraft I would be keen to minimise engine wear and tear and I think I could manage to change prop pitch as well as flaps, gear etc when going-around, so it's certainly not something I would not consider.

[airyana]

right, I'm sending mr pooleys an email, I'll let you know what they say . . .

[Check my bad SLF]

When I said max RPM I should really have said higher RPM, for the reasons already stated. That of course would be for an aircraft with a CSU. If you've a VP prop with climb or cruise settings, I'd put it to climb for the circuit.

I appreciate what you say about drag Chuck, but at the same time I can't see that having that little bit extra ever hurts? Short fields with obstacles are one example that spring to mind. You might want flap and a beast of a slip to get in, so the drag from the higher revving prop would help. Also with the engine at high power settings, I don't think you could say the engine was being laboured particularly.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I appreciate what you say about drag Chuck, but at the same time I can't see that having that little bit extra ever hurts? Short fields with obstacles are one example that spring to mind. You might want flap and a beast of a slip to get in, so the drag from the higher revving prop would help.


That example is not what we are discussing.....my comments are directed at increasing prop RPM in the circuit as a normal proceedure....my position is very simple....leave the prop in cruise RPM unless you want to go around..at that point you increase prop RPM to climb RPM and add climb power.

Otherwise leave the RPM in cruise as you do not require much power to descend to a landing.

Moving the prop pitch to full fine as you close the throttle/'s for the landing will ensure you are set up for a go around or the next take off.


Also with the engine at high power settings, I don't think you could say the engine was being laboured particularly.

How can you descend for a landing at high power settings and still maintain the desired A.S. for the approach?

[llanfairpg]

Chuck in the UK virtually all PPLs put pitch to fine because of this BUMPF pre-landing check that came from WW2 pilot training.

Air taxi pilots flying the same aircraft over here NEVER select pitch fine downwind. Its either on short finals or after landing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote::

Chuck in the UK virtually all PPLs put pitch to fine because of this BUMPF pre-landing check that came from WW2 pilot training.

****************************************
****************************************

Don't feel alone, it is the same here in Canada...must be something in the training mentality that is common to flight schools.

Could it be ignorance?

[tigerbatics]

I'm a UK PPL and I was taught to go to fine pitch, if at all, on short finals. I can see no value in doing so downwind. In fact I usually land with the prop in cruise. Maybe that is wrong, but it works just fine.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Maybe that is wrong, but it works just fine.

It works just fine because that is the correct way to do it', but it would be better to go to full fine pitch as you close the throttle, just in case you have to go around and of course it is ready for the next trip.

[KeithTo]

P-Primer, locked

[foxmoth]

V-A = Vital Actions (Pre TO)
P-L = Pre Landing (checks)
rest look much as described though I did not look at the replies too closely, just noticed most could not work the start ones out.:rolleyes: