LD3 shifting in Flight - how serious

[shon7]

If an LD3 approx. say 400- 500 lbs on an ETOPs flight shifts in the Cargo Hold due to it being not secured - would the cockpit get any indication?

I see this as serious but have had a disagreement with some colleagues who do not view it the same way.

[Rainboe]

Type would be a help, but no, not serious. 200 kgs moving in a hold would make negligible difference to trim index. You would have no indication. Only possibly sounds, but how are you to know what the sounds are?

[john_tullamarine]

As with any load shift, it depends on the circumstances.

Main concerns are with

(a) weight (mass) of the load which moves (a small load is far more benign that a BIG load)

(b) start/finish CG of the load which moves (a metre or so is far more benign than 15-20 metres or more in a main deck load)

(c) original gross CG of the aircraft (ie how close to the fore/aft limits)

Apart from loading, there is the other problem of what degree of damage might be done by this errant load sliding hither and thither.

Historically, the consequences of loads shifting range from the unnoticed, through very sweatily noticed, to hull loss.

[shon7]

Thanks for replies

Type - A330. Load Shifted aprox 3 positions say 15-18 ft forward and then from right side of AC to left.

[Daysleeper]

Er yes its serious!

1/ Potential trim changes as mentioned before.

2/ If its got 15 foot to accelerate then hit the bulkhead, another container etc then its going to do damage, either to itself, the aircraft or its contents.

3/ Procedures. If the ground crew have forgotten to lock this container in then what else have they forgotten?

[Bullethead]

Passengers, cabin crew and catering trollies move around all the time and you don't feel it. Gotta be more than a couple of hundred kilos at a time on the move. The danger would be the unrestrained pallet causing damage to the aircraft structure.

Regards,
BH.

[Rainboe]

It's not really dangerous. I have heard several times the loud hollow 'boom' in a 747 from containers sliding about. It shouldn't do damage. the trim change is negligible. Even a 737 having a sudden change of 200 kgs from the front hold to the rear (impossible) would find it almost undetectable! But it is not desirable for damage reasons.

[joehunt]

Any load shift is cause for concern.

One would assume the a/c was loaded correctly before load shift. Therefore if the load shifts, the a/c would be incorrectly loaded, would it not?

An incorrectly loaded a/c can have dire consequences and just as lethal as CFIT. Don't believe me? A cargo F27 went in at the Channel Islands a few years ago caused by incorrect loading (aft c of g)

A Cargo DC 8 crashed at MIA on T/O due to load shift ie., pallets rolling to the rare. I could go on.

[CR2]

500Lbs, (even 500Kgs) over 20ft wouldn't be noticed on an a/c that size; its just the same as 3 pax getting up and moving to the bathroom, or moving a couple of catering trolleys up and down the aisle. Not that I'm saying its good...

I remember a heavy 744F with 4 extra tons in the nose (an empty container that wasn't empty). Nobody noticed, not even crew (spoke to them myself).

Given the shape of an LD3/AKE, I'd say that in this case the shift from right to left is the more worrying. Its akin to loading one backwards.... Assume someone checked the sidewall for structural damage?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

How could it go sideways if the centre locks are up, say if it were to go into an empty position. Only way for it to go sideways if a Pallet shifted and it went through that gap.... Then there would be real trouble !!!

As for the PAX moving analogy, SLF don't have the same momentum as a loaded container when it stops.

[frontlefthamster]

Rainboe,

Whilst hand-flying the B737 in cruise, I can tell if a cart is being moved from one end to the other... :)

joehunt,

Forgive me, but you are simplifying the circumstances there, and the F27 commander was a mate of mine. :(

A container on the loose hasn't, to my knowledge, killed anyone yet... :bored:

[Daysleeper]

A container on the loose hasn't, to my knowledge, killed anyone yet.
I don't think the relatives of the crew of Fine Air 101 would agree with you.... or the passing motorist killed as well.


Improperly secured cargo slid aft as the aircraft was departing runway 27R at the Miami International Airport. The excess weight in the rear portion of the aircraft caused a severe aft center of gravity condition, rendering the crew unable to lower the aircraft's nose. The airplane stalled, crashed into a field, and slid across busy 72nd Avenue into a strip-mall parking lot.
airdisaster.com (http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=08071997&reg=N27UA&airline=Fine+Air)