Flying solo during tailwheel conversion?

[rusty sparrow]

According to The Compleat Taildragger Piliot (Jan 2004 printing) pp201, solo flying is not allowed if you're already a PPL - this is only after "the logbook has been endorsed stating that the objectives listed in FAR 61.31 (g) have been met. This is the FAA's official interpretation of that regulation at this time"

Is this still the case? Seems a bit daft to me.

Rusty Sparrow

[18greens]

An interesting question to which I don't know the answer but what happens if you do your PPL on the Tailwheel. You have go solo before you get the licence.

The question I'm never clear on is do you need a TW differences sign off in your log book when you get your licence having done all of it on a TW? and why isn't there a nosewheel differences signoff for people who have only ever driven TWs?

[rusty sparrow]

That's how it works according to The Compleate Tailwheel Pilot - but with a PPL I can't do any training solo is how I understand it. Flying solo concentrates the mind and a bit of solo flying in the conversion must make for a safer and more confident pilot.

Anyway, I'll be starting on the conversion next month - may give the school a call later it time. Busy day coming earning the money to pay for it!

[FlyingForFun]

It's one of those odd ones which makes no sense, but that's the way it is.

A student pilot is allowed to fly solo under his instructor's supervision. But once a pilot has a PPL, he is not allowed to fly solo unless he is qualified to fly a type, class or variant. Which means that you are quite correct, you can not go solo during your taildragger conversion course, although you could have gone solo if you had done your PPL on a taildragger.

One way around this is for the instructor to sign off your differences training on tailwheel before the course is complete, thus qualifying you to fly solo. You can verbally agree with your instructor that you will only fly solo under certain circumstances (e.g. no pax, grass runways, max 5kt x-wind) until you have received further training..... but there may obviously be a lot of goodwill involved in agreeing this, because the instructor can not enforce it. (Mind you, if it's a rented aircraft, the aircraft owner can enforce it, which makes it workable.)

I've never yet had the pleasure of teaching anyone for a tail-dragger conversion, so I haven't been in this situation as an instructor. But as an aircraft owner, when I was converted onto the Europa, my instructor signed off the differences training in my logbook on the understanding I would only fly off grass until I'd done further training with him on hard runways. I did the further training some weeks later, having done lots of flying (solo and with pax) off grass in the mean time.

FFF
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[Lister Noble]

When I did my taiwheel conversion last year, I flew several hours dual then a solo circuit,after which I was signed off in my logbook by the instructor.
Seems logical to me.
Lister:)

[rusty sparrow]

That's a simple way around it - I'll see about that when I start next month.

RS

[Lister Noble]

Rusty,
Another thing that may help.
You will find that you overcorrect like mad and the aircraft will swing from side to side on taxi ,take-off and landings.
After you've flown a few hours solo you notice that you don't even think about it,as you are ahead of the aircraft,if that makes sense.
You can't help making gross movements when you are learning.
The same as all the pilot induced sidewind when doing your first landings for your PPL,I remember the PPL instrucor telling me I had hold of the yoke like it was a cobra about to strike me,all tensed up and stiff.
He told me to let go and it would fly a lot better without me.
He was spot on!
Lister:)

[Whopity]

A student pilot is allowed to fly solo under his instructor's supervision. But once a pilot has a PPL, he is not allowed to fly solo unless he is qualified to fly a type, class or variantIf thats true you will be able to state the legislation that says so! Please enlighten us all?

My reading of Article 26 (b) (vi) says he can because its a variation of a rating that requires differences training.

[rusty sparrow]

Isn't is basically what I said at the start of this thread?:

The Compleat Taildragger Piliot (Jan 2004 printing) pp201, solo flying is not allowed if you're already a PPL - this is only after "the logbook has been endorsed stating that the objectives listed in FAR 61.31 (g) have been met. This is the FAA's official interpretation of that regulation at this time"

[S-Works]

I am a bit lost about the point of this discussion?

There is no defined time for a tailwheel differences sign off. You get in the aircraft with me, we do the general handling and circuits etc. When I am satisfied that they are safe they get signed off. If they are not safe why would I send them solo?

[tigerbatics]

Don't see what FAA regs have to do with flying in the UK.

Remember that the so called tailwheel sign off is in reality 'difference training'. Therefore a TW trained pilot would need a 'nose wheel sign off' before solo flight in a spam can or similar.

[FlyingForFun]

Whopity asked:A student pilot is allowed to fly solo under his instructor's supervision. But once a pilot has a PPL, he is not allowed to fly solo unless he is qualified to fly a type, class or variant
If thats true you will be able to state the legislation that says so! Please enlighten us all?

My reading of Article 26 (b) (vi) says he can because its a variation of a rating that requires differences training.
Article 26 (2) (b) states:
A person may within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man without being the holder of such a licence:

(b) act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot’s licence if:
(followed by some conditions such as being supervised by an instructor, at least 16 years of age, etc etc etc.)

The emphasis of "without being the holder of such a license" is mine. That phrase refers back to paragraph (1) of the same article, which reads:
(1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.Since a person undergoing differences training already holds a valid license (note that paragraph (1) makes no reference to the ratings on that license), and paragraph (2) specifically says it applies only to pilots who do not hold a license, paragraph (2)(b) can not apply to differences training. No?

FFF
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[Whopity]

The article refers to an "appropriate" licence. To be appropriate the licence must contain an aircraft rating, or the privileges of the license cannot be exercised.

If differences training is required before the specific privileges of a rating may be exercised, and you do not have that sign off then you do not hold an appropriate licence and can be authorised to fly by a FI in accordance with Art 26 (2)(b) (I(vi)
(vi) he so acts in accordance with instructions given by a person holding a pilot’s licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, being a licencewhich includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor’s rating or an assistant flying instructor’s rating entitling him to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown;You may recall that under the old National requirements, part of the process of getting back a lifetime licence, when the aircraft rating had expired by more than 10 years, was to complete a number of solo exercises. The candidate still had a licence, but it was not appropriate as there was no valid aircraft rating. In such cases an appropriately qualified FI can authorise solo flights.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Do you have to have an instructors rating in England to give tail wheel conversion training?

[Flyin'Dutch']

Yup, you have.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Then that would mean that there could be many qualified pilots who can not do tail wheel training because they could not justify the cost and time involved in getting an instructors rating.

Fortunately here in Canada we can do tail wheel training without having to get an instructors rating.

I really do not see how having an instructors rating would make me better qualified to do tail wheel training.....what would I learn by getting the rating that would make me better qualified to do tail wheel training?

[Flyin'Dutch']

The idea is that with having some basic knowledge of instructional techniques you can instill your knowledge better into the poor unsuspecting victim, I mean student.

:}

You don't have to do the full FI course. You can do the CRI course which is some groundschool and flight training.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I hear what you are saying flying dutch, in my case it dosen't really make any difference because here in Canada we are allowed to do different types of training such as tail wheel, Sea Plane, Multi Engine and IFR as long as we meet certain experience requirements.

I at one time held an instructors rating from 1958 to 1965 when I just had no further need for it so let it lapse.....having owned and operated a flying school both fixed and rotary wing I did get a fair insite into the instructors world and found I was better off just not renewing my rating.

As to being taught instructional techniques that is a slippery slope because in practice it means very little judging by some of the flight instructors I had in my employ over the years I owned the flight school.

Anyhow things are the way they are and there is not much we can do about it.

By the way I'm getting a factory new Husky A1B in a couple of weeks and will be putting it on Whipline 2100 Amphibs....

Might do a bit of tail wheel training with it before we do the float installation.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Chuck,

See what you're saying about previous experience and in your position I would feel the same; unfortunately I am only a rookie compared to you so will have to learn it the hard way!

To be honest the requirements for the CRI course are pretty low and I hope to prove soon that it is possible to pass the test, Bose-X did so it must be possible!

Although I have done some gliding instructing in the past I have learned a fair few things, including about my own flying by doing the course.

I don't have the time or inclination to do ab-inititio training but think that I will enjoy doing some differences (such as tailwheel) training with folks who are keen to push the envelope a bit.

By doing the course I feel that I have ensured that what I impart on people I fly with, is sensible and safe.

Hope you enjoy the Husky! Lucky git!

:}

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The Husky was bought by a friend of mine as a toy and I plan on using it to do some training of pilots from Greece who will be converting to sea plane flying to work for Air Sea Lines in Athens.

The time has come for sea planes to be used in Europe the same as we use them in North America and I have decided to go back to work because I am to stupid to stay retired.

There are some real exciting times in the sea plane sector coming soon hopefully......

.....there are even plans to operate in England...how about that?

In the new year I will be looking for suggestions from sea plane operators in Europe to offer to the JAA...EASA regulators to make this area of flying more user friendly.

The process is in the works now.....

[Contacttower]

After having got my PPL, my instructor sent me solo in a taildragger as part of the taildragger conversion before I had the endorsement. This was in the UK with a JAA PPL.

[S-Works]

There is no solo element to tailwheel/skid differences training. If you Instructor chose to let you loose before having signed your logbook to indicate differences training had been completed then that his choice. I would not send a pilot 'solo' on a tailwheel aircraft until they have demonstrated competency and if they have demonstrated competency then the differences training is done.

No doubt the same sort of establishment that will sell you a 5 hr tailwheel 'course'. Tailwheel is just differences training and takes as long as it takes, some people do it quicker than others but once it's done the log book is signed and job done.

[Contacttower]

My thinking exactly....

[BristolScout]

The only critical air exercise elements of tailwheel/skid conversion are those concerned with take-off and landing (and the circuit which joins them, naturally). Thus I would satisfy myself that the student has achieved competency in the said manoeuvres, sign off the differences training and strongly suggest a session or two of supervised solo circuits to build confidence in a regulated environment.