where to instruct?

[garman]

Hi everyone,
I am now coming close to finishing my flying training and I am pretty sure that I will be going down the instructing path. Looking at the amount of adds and scholarships advertised on places like AFAP there seems to be quite a shortage of instructors at the moment (I know the school that I'm currently training at are screaming for them). Given the current situation I am wondering if anyone has any advice of which schools they think would be best to work at. I am willing to move anywhere in Australia but when considering where to work I would be looking at a few things, they include:

1: does the school train airline cadets, and therefore is there a good chance of developing a relationship with that airline and increasing chances of employment with them.

2: the schools aircraft fleet! does the school offer a decent amount of time flying twin's, and what is the total amount of flying hours you can expect per annum? is the general condition of the fleet pretty good and are they fun to fly?

3: the location of the school. Is it located in a place where there is an oppurtunity to have even half a lifestyle outside of work. Also things like is the weather ridiculously hot/cold/humid etc, is there a decent nightlife or any beaches, rivers (for fishing) or just anything to do whilst not working.

4: does the school offer employees reasonable pay?

5: are other instructors there generally pretty happy to be where they are? are they generally a pretty good group of guys to be working with? how long usually does it take to progress grade 3 to grade 2 etc?

6: can you expect to be teaching a lot of ground theory?

7: what is the usual amount of time that instructors spend at the school before they move on to the airlines?

I could have probably thought of a million more questions but I think thats plenty for now. I am hoping to work for as instructor for 2-3 years and really get a good grasp of the theory side of things as well as the practical hands on flying, before moving into the airlines.

Anyone that has any experience, knowledge or insight into such topics, some advice would be extremely appreciated, many thanks in advance!

GARMAN

[morno]

Ahh, I love this. Students teaching students, :bored:.

And then a few words to finish it off.... "as well as the practical hands on flying"

If you want practical hands on flying, don't go instructing.

morno

[garman]

well you have to start somewhere don't you buddy!

it was a genuine question, so how about you get a life and leave your smarta$$ comments to yourself!

[das Uber Soldat]

2 posts and he's abusing away already!

you'll fit right in :}

Morno is right, if you want practical hands on flying, don't instruct. Even if you demonstrate a lot, its all from the right seat which means when its time to apply for a real job in the left seat you wont be much better than when you started instructing.

Go work for Singapore flying college, they're paying well at the moment and have a very structured airline style approach to their operation. Or so I hear. :ok:

[1224]

:eek: Das, thats a load of crap. Charter vs Instructing in the end will have similar exp levels. Even hands on skills. True that the charter guy may have more dealing with last min pax and the pressure thats involved ie getthereitis etc. However its not a big leap, and not rocket science.

[43Inches]

Dont know what airline will put you directly into the LHS of an airliner with just a piston GA background?

There are actually quite a few instructors moving straight into airlines without charter/rpt experience.

Have to agree that Singapore Flying College is probably the best option that fits your requirements.

Pay on salary and good flying hours.

Living in Perth is not cheap but a good place to live.

If your flying school is screaming for instructors then ask them for their pay and conditions, if they are that desperate they'll pay for your training otherwise its just talk.

It will take a minimum of 18months to get a grade 1 (which is what the industry is short of) and you will have to get 50hrs PIC/ICUS on a twin to teach on multi engine types(multi engine training approval). All in all this may take 2+years.

The only reason to do charter is that you may get airline entry requirements a little earlier.

Whether you are better trained/prepared as a charter pilot or instructor will depend on who trains you and how the operator goes about their business.

[Dragun]

Even if you demonstrate a lot, its all from the right seat which means when its time to apply for a real job in the left seat you wont be much better than when you started instructing

Total crap. Real job? Buddy - get a grip. Arrogance like that will see you canned in plenty of places in this industry before you've even walked through the door. You'd be amazed at how watching and teaching day in day out, with demonstrations, can actually improve your overall flying skills. It's not all about muscle memory. I instructed from day 1 up to multi-engine IFR and then flew multi-engine IFR charter in a variety of multi engine aircraft, including multi turbine, before moving onto the airlines.

I can assure you I looked back every single day whilst flying charter thinking how much I appreciated having a solid KNOWLEDGE as well as skills when it came down to handling a high work load in single pilot IFR operation. I'm not saying this for every organisation, but some of the things that other crew didn't know during crew room chats whilst planning IFR flights used to amaze me. Guys with 1000's of multi-IFR flying still didn't know the rules about descent below MDAs. Anyone who thinks that an in depth knowledge of how to fly the aircraft from a regulation point of view is less important than stick flying it shouldn't have a licence. I can assure you that having done both instructing and charter to pretty much the highest level, the guys I worked with instructing had a much better grasp on the rules than those who had done only charter and I never saw their flying skills as having suffered because of it.

It's not all about being able to land an aircraft into a short strip. For people with airline aspirations, the decision making, knowledge of rules and regulations AND being able to fly an aircraft is all equally important - something well carried if you take pride in your work as an instructor.

This guy makes a genuine, well written enquiry, and once again a couple of jokers shoot him down before anyone has had a chance to give him a decent reply. No-one is saying a newbie is going to make the greatest instructor in the world, but someone is going to have to instruct. He'll start out teaching the basics of GFPT and progress from there. I'm sure he won't be looking to give out aircraft endorsements in the first week. Fresh CPLs are still going to be doing instructor ratings - it's not going to change. At least give those willing to give it a go some encouragement.

PM me Garman and I'll give you some decent information.

[garman]

thanks for the info everyone!

I am curious, as an instructor at Singapore Flying College, would you only be training Singapore Airlines cadets?

I know that where I am training they provide training for a few major airline cadetships, and in the past couple of years these airlines have taken on instructors that train there cadets. Is this a possibility with Singapore Flying College, or must you be a citizen to qualify for their airline?

[43Inches]

Singapore only train their own cadets and yes they have a progression program.

Search for their ads on AFAP and contact them.

[garman]

does anyone know of any other flying schools, that in the past instructors training airline cadets their, have progressed into that airline?

[corowacomet]

Mate if you're so keen to get into an airline go and get a charter job. If you have even half a clue you'll be on a twin soon enough and gain that precious airline career much sooner.
The Comet.:E

[garman]

yes I am very keen for the airlines.
but there are a few things that are attracting me more towards instructing.
i feel that if i instruct i will gain a good understanding of a lot of the theory side of flying, topics such as aerodynamics, aircraft systems and IFR theory. i fear that if i went north (or anywhere else) and flew charter (having noone looking over my shoulder) i would become slack and maybe develop bad traits, while also maybe falling behind with a lot of the theory. i have thought about the pros and cons of each and just feel that instructing is the way to go for me.

[Capt Fathom]

i feel that if i instruct i will gain a good understanding of a lot of the theory side of flying, topics such as aerodynamics, aircraft systems and IFR theory. i fear that if i went north (or anywhere else) and flew charter (having noone looking over my shoulder) i would become slack and maybe develop bad traits, while also maybe falling behind with a lot of the theory

So what you are saying is flying around single pilot is detrimental to your career ?? :rolleyes:

Sit down, take a Bex, and have a long hard think!

Who has been filling your head with this stuff....:confused:

[Bendo]

Garman

Mate this is the best I have got and straight from the hip.

I have done charter (2100+ hours), I have done instructing (1200+ hours), I am now a CFI and a Chief Pilot (again). I haven't been there and done everything but between me and my friends we possibly have. All the guys I was driving 206s with are now captains at Wirgin and the guys I drove Chieftains with are now Captains in Pornstar or FOs in major intl airlines, or driving jets and CASA's in Antarctica, or driving for the RFDS.

I have a bit of an insight into what is going on out there and I have to say that the best way you can get "airline" skills is to get out there in a CHTR environment and learn from other guys. Change companies every 12 months and push and progress and LEARN. When you have done 12 months SE charter and then 12 months ME charter, move on to turbines.

Instructing is great... AFTER you have done 1-2 years charter and you actually have some real knowledge to pass on to your victims.... er, students. :yuk: Instructing will make you soft (and bitter) quicker than CHTR.

To be a good airline operator you have to be SHARP and REGIMENTED. You have to hone your skills and preferably have someone in the LHS (or RHS) helping you hone them.

If you're really hot, go out to Dubbo and fly with AIrlink for a couple of years. That'll bash you into shape.... :D

... and GOOD LUCK! :ok:

... oh and learn that "their" is posessive and "there" is a location :=

... "twins" is plural... "twins's" is possessive.

... and yes it matters. I have recently received 30+ resumes and guess which were first culled? :E

[Bendo]

...oh and incidentally, it is my not-very-humble-opinion that YOU decide how slack you get on your academic knowledge.

you have your ATPLs to study for now, boy... :ouch:

[das Uber Soldat]

4 figures of instructing behind me, I respectfully disagree 1224.

I wonder what the charter employers would say about this topic?

[das Uber Soldat]

Total crap. Real job? Buddy - get a grip. Arrogance like that will see you canned in plenty of places in this industry before you've even walked through the door. You'd be amazed at how watching and teaching day in day out, with demonstrations, can actually improve your overall flying skills. It's not all about muscle memory. I instructed from day 1 up to multi-engine IFR and then flew multi-engine IFR charter in a variety of multi engine aircraft, including multi turbine, before moving onto the airlines.
Actually, I am an instructor. I'm not amazed how often demonstration and 'watching' improves hand flying skills. Whilst there is going to be some improvement, speaking strictly in terms of stick and rudder, all my colleagues including those with up to 7000hrs instructing ME IFR remark that once back in the left seat they, for a time at least, are not up to their usual standard. Call that arrogance if you need to, I just believe its the reality. Its not to say instructors cant fly well, or very well, but I fail to understand how you can develop your hand flying ability from not hand flying. Explain to me how this is more, or even equally advantageous as another pilot doing nothing but? I would have thought it basic common sense, oh well.

I can assure you I looked back every single day whilst flying charter thinking how much I appreciated having a solid KNOWLEDGE as well as skills when it came down to handling a high work load in single pilot IFR operation. I'm not saying this for every organisation, but some of the things that other crew didn't know during crew room chats whilst planning IFR flights used to amaze me. Guys with 1000's of multi-IFR flying still didn't know the rules about descent below MDAs. Anyone who thinks that an in depth knowledge of how to fly the aircraft from a regulation point of view is less important than stick flying it shouldn't have a licence. I can assure you that having done both instructing and charter to pretty much the highest level, the guys I worked with instructing had a much better grasp on the rules than those who had done only charter and I never saw their flying skills as having suffered because of it.
I agree, knowledge wise instructing is a fantastic avenue and I took the same path for that very reason. I too have seen a lot of charter only pilots who are at best vague with theory and procedure.

It's not all about being able to land an aircraft into a short strip. For people with airline aspirations, the decision making, knowledge of rules and regulations AND being able to fly an aircraft is all equally important - something well carried if you take pride in your work as an instructor.
Sure is, well put.

This guy makes a genuine, well written enquiry, and once again a couple of jokers shoot him down before anyone has had a chance to give him a decent reply. No-one is saying a newbie is going to make the greatest instructor in the world, but someone is going to have to instruct. He'll start out teaching the basics of GFPT and progress from there. I'm sure he won't be looking to give out aircraft endorsements in the first week. Fresh CPLs are still going to be doing instructor ratings - it's not going to change. At least give those willing to give it a go some encouragement.

PM me Garman and I'll give you some decent informationNow, in all honesty, maybe if you had read my post with a little more care, we could have avoided all this. I was speaking STRICTLY in terms of hands on flying. "If you want practical hands on flying, don't instruct". Thats the quote. Being an instructor myself, I'm reasonably sure thats a fairly accurate comment.

By no means is that a comprehensive dismissal of instructing as a viable and rewarding career path or means of progression, I'm merely adding my thoughts on a very specific area to one of the many questions he posed in his initial post.

[D.O.G]

Dear Bendo,
Can you please accept my apology for the atrocious spelling contained in my resume and correct the word twins’ to twins’s :eek:.
I will try harder next time.:ok:
Thank you

[kiwi chick]

A little thought from my corner of the world.

Over here, in my experience, most small places like to employ instructors that they have trained themselves. If you move to another training establishment, you could be seen to be "poaching" a job from and up-and-coming instructor that is already training there.

We do however have a large training establishment here - CTC, anyone heard of it...?;) that will take instructors from other parts of New Zealand.

(To teach all the Poms that make their way over here :ok: )

[puma4319]

I think it is also important to not become an instructor for the reasons of furthering your career to airlines or because it is the most "comfortable" option for you. Of course you will plan to move on one day, but you can't have such tunnel vision.

It is important that you have a passion for passing on your knowledge on to other students and enjoy the teaching aspect, rather than just doing itso YOU can get good at the theory aspect.

Otherwise you will be wasting the poor students time and money. I have seen many instructors like this, it's a real shame to see :ugh:

Good luck in whatever you choose mate :ok:

[kiwi chick]

Yeah, I agree with Puma4319. :ok:

When I was instructing, there were far too many instructors who would fly no matter WHAT - because it was all hours in their log book.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You are being paid by THEM to teach them all you can - not to step up another rung on the Airline Ladder.

[MACH082]

If you are keen to instruct and pass on your knowledge, then by all means do it. But only do it if your heart is in it. If you are hour building for a quick getaway to an airline career, then charter is the arena for you. Its unfair on your students if you dont want to be there and are only there for the hours. As a charter pilot, you are only as slack with the regs as you want to be, its all up to you how profficient you want to be. Its not charters fault if you become lazy, its the ugly mug in the mirror. Yes charter will have you learning a few shortcuts here and there and a few things that will have the average instructor raising an eyebrow, but it makes you a better operator. Lets face it you learn decision making skills in charter (which is vital in the airline arena) and how to fly in rough conditions smoothly with pax, how to deal with their groans and complaints, what works what doesnt. How to mask the smell of our native cousins so you dont dry reach etc and it all makes you a better operator.

You also will end up with a better work ethic as a charter pilot as you will have to clean wash refuel, help the other pilots do the same, its a big team effort. instructing will have you learning how to make the perfect cup of coffee for the grade 1's living in a bubble. Or that annoying smart arse mid life crisis pilot who is late 50s never done anything but instructed, think they know all the goods and are basically a bitter twisted old fart. There is one in every school.

Alot of instructors i have come across spent to much time in the local aero club talking crap and not doing, Yes there are some good ones out there also, and hell i am an instructor, but im a charter pilot before i am an instructor and as such think like one.

If you want to instruct, head north for a season for gods sake, develop your own stick and rudder, then go back and pass the skills on to the next generation and actually teach them how to operate!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"If you are keen to instruct and pass on your knowledge, then by all means do it ..."

..... but get some (knowledge) first!

Dr :8

[garman]

thanks for all the replies everyone, much appreciated!
i am curious, in the current climate is it possible to get a job up north with the bare minimums (NVFR, CPL and instrument rating) or would i have to do some parachuting or something similar to gain some hours and experience in cessna 200 series aircraft?
also is it possible that whilst flying single pilot operations, to gain a good theoretical knowledge of some of the topics i mentioned earlier (aerodynamics, systems, IFR theory etc). or am i placing to much emphasis on something not so important. does knowledge in such ares just come with experience or are charter pilots constantly revising theory?
i am also interested to know if making the transition from single pilot operations to something more structured such as a regional or major airline is ever difficult. or again am i worrying over nothing.
i am finding the decision of whether to instruct or head north quite difficult, and any help is appreciated in advance!

[Cap'n Arrr]

Instructing is very very hard work. You not only have to know (or give the appearance of knowing) your sh**, but you also have to spend time before and after the flight ensuring your student understands everything s/he's been shown, and prepare for their next one. On top of that, as a Jnr 3, there are SOOOO many friggin laws that can trip you up if you aren't careful and dont watch your students hours, and where they're up to in the training, or how long you've flown with them. You have to do this for every student.

It's a full on job, and it's only a rewarding career path if you get satisfaction from watching someone who came to you knowing nothing being sent on their first solo, or passing their CPL. Twins are a different kettle of fish in instructing, it takes much longer than in charter to get on to them, and the waiting list is longer. On top of this you need to get an instructor rating, whereas for charter you just get a $100 DG certificate and off you go.

I'm not trying to turn you off instructing, hell I do it myself. But please think long and hard about your reasons for doing it. Don't do it because you'd rather live in the city. You need to love watching people go from blankness to understanding. Even then I fairly often have doubts about whether I'm happiest doing it.

At the end of the day, there is very little difference. Last time I checked, in QANTAS there was about a 50/50 split between ex instructor and ex charter. Many pilots have done both. In the end there is small difference in handling ability, depending more on the person than the job. Both paths normally take 2-3 years to get to RPT, (although that changes with the industry) and the pay is normally similar between them, although there are exceptions.

If you are really keen on airlines, look at the QF Cadetship, or failing that you could do your JAR licence and move to Europe, and go straight into an airline.

There are many ways to skin a cat, just make sure that the way you go is the one you'll be happiest doing. You'll get there in the end no matter which way you go, if thats what you really want.:ok:

Arrr.
(Alerts fire brigade in case of flames:})

[43Inches]

Generally doing charter up north in todays climate will no better prepare you for airline work than instructing from a major city. In fact you may find the instructing path may expose you to airline SOPs and procedures if you are involved with cadet training.

Many airline pilots around the world today have never been a charter pilot or instructed and started flying boeing or airbus from 200-300 hours. This is especially the case in Europe and Asia. Some of these cadets have achieved commands in around ten years. Airlines may prefer this as it prevents bad habit forming and also creates a captive market of pilots purely trained to your procedures. I think australia will move down this path in the near future as the requirement for pilots outstrips supply.

If you want to improve your knowledge it is your responsibility.

Some charter operators have thorough check and training which will ensure you know your rules and systems. Others will just want you to fly and get the job done.

Some flying schools particularly the aeroclubs and small private operators are very relaxed and similar to what MACH82 described. The larger college based cadet programs are more structured with training tailored to a specific airlines SOPs and requirements. The colleges will also operate to a schedule of training and instructors will be rostered for duties with high workload.

If you want to instruct be an instructor
If you would like to do charter than do it
If you want to be an airline pilot join a cadet program

Either of these options will cost the same when you balance cash/time to get where you want to be.

Whatever you do make sure you enjoy it and dont get pushed into something you dont want to do!

[MACH082]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=302446

go here garman, should answer your question about going up north.