The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

where to instruct?

Old 29th Nov 2007, 05:27
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: australia
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where to instruct?

Hi everyone,
I am now coming close to finishing my flying training and I am pretty sure that I will be going down the instructing path. Looking at the amount of adds and scholarships advertised on places like AFAP there seems to be quite a shortage of instructors at the moment (I know the school that I'm currently training at are screaming for them). Given the current situation I am wondering if anyone has any advice of which schools they think would be best to work at. I am willing to move anywhere in Australia but when considering where to work I would be looking at a few things, they include:

1: does the school train airline cadets, and therefore is there a good chance of developing a relationship with that airline and increasing chances of employment with them.

2: the schools aircraft fleet! does the school offer a decent amount of time flying twin's, and what is the total amount of flying hours you can expect per annum? is the general condition of the fleet pretty good and are they fun to fly?

3: the location of the school. Is it located in a place where there is an oppurtunity to have even half a lifestyle outside of work. Also things like is the weather ridiculously hot/cold/humid etc, is there a decent nightlife or any beaches, rivers (for fishing) or just anything to do whilst not working.

4: does the school offer employees reasonable pay?

5: are other instructors there generally pretty happy to be where they are? are they generally a pretty good group of guys to be working with? how long usually does it take to progress grade 3 to grade 2 etc?

6: can you expect to be teaching a lot of ground theory?

7: what is the usual amount of time that instructors spend at the school before they move on to the airlines?

I could have probably thought of a million more questions but I think thats plenty for now. I am hoping to work for as instructor for 2-3 years and really get a good grasp of the theory side of things as well as the practical hands on flying, before moving into the airlines.

Anyone that has any experience, knowledge or insight into such topics, some advice would be extremely appreciated, many thanks in advance!

GARMAN
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 05:39
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Ahh, I love this. Students teaching students, .

And then a few words to finish it off.... "as well as the practical hands on flying"

If you want practical hands on flying, don't go instructing.

morno
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 07:18
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well you have to start somewhere don't you buddy!

it was a genuine question, so how about you get a life and leave your smarta$$ comments to yourself!
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 07:31
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2 posts and he's abusing away already!

you'll fit right in

Morno is right, if you want practical hands on flying, don't instruct. Even if you demonstrate a lot, its all from the right seat which means when its time to apply for a real job in the left seat you wont be much better than when you started instructing.

Go work for Singapore flying college, they're paying well at the moment and have a very structured airline style approach to their operation. Or so I hear.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 07:42
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Das, thats a load of crap. Charter vs Instructing in the end will have similar exp levels. Even hands on skills. True that the charter guy may have more dealing with last min pax and the pressure thats involved ie getthereitis etc. However its not a big leap, and not rocket science.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 08:02
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Dont know what airline will put you directly into the LHS of an airliner with just a piston GA background?

There are actually quite a few instructors moving straight into airlines without charter/rpt experience.

Have to agree that Singapore Flying College is probably the best option that fits your requirements.

Pay on salary and good flying hours.

Living in Perth is not cheap but a good place to live.

If your flying school is screaming for instructors then ask them for their pay and conditions, if they are that desperate they'll pay for your training otherwise its just talk.

It will take a minimum of 18months to get a grade 1 (which is what the industry is short of) and you will have to get 50hrs PIC/ICUS on a twin to teach on multi engine types(multi engine training approval). All in all this may take 2+years.

The only reason to do charter is that you may get airline entry requirements a little earlier.

Whether you are better trained/prepared as a charter pilot or instructor will depend on who trains you and how the operator goes about their business.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 08:09
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Even if you demonstrate a lot, its all from the right seat which means when its time to apply for a real job in the left seat you wont be much better than when you started instructing
Total crap. Real job? Buddy - get a grip. Arrogance like that will see you canned in plenty of places in this industry before you've even walked through the door. You'd be amazed at how watching and teaching day in day out, with demonstrations, can actually improve your overall flying skills. It's not all about muscle memory. I instructed from day 1 up to multi-engine IFR and then flew multi-engine IFR charter in a variety of multi engine aircraft, including multi turbine, before moving onto the airlines.

I can assure you I looked back every single day whilst flying charter thinking how much I appreciated having a solid KNOWLEDGE as well as skills when it came down to handling a high work load in single pilot IFR operation. I'm not saying this for every organisation, but some of the things that other crew didn't know during crew room chats whilst planning IFR flights used to amaze me. Guys with 1000's of multi-IFR flying still didn't know the rules about descent below MDAs. Anyone who thinks that an in depth knowledge of how to fly the aircraft from a regulation point of view is less important than stick flying it shouldn't have a licence. I can assure you that having done both instructing and charter to pretty much the highest level, the guys I worked with instructing had a much better grasp on the rules than those who had done only charter and I never saw their flying skills as having suffered because of it.

It's not all about being able to land an aircraft into a short strip. For people with airline aspirations, the decision making, knowledge of rules and regulations AND being able to fly an aircraft is all equally important - something well carried if you take pride in your work as an instructor.

This guy makes a genuine, well written enquiry, and once again a couple of jokers shoot him down before anyone has had a chance to give him a decent reply. No-one is saying a newbie is going to make the greatest instructor in the world, but someone is going to have to instruct. He'll start out teaching the basics of GFPT and progress from there. I'm sure he won't be looking to give out aircraft endorsements in the first week. Fresh CPLs are still going to be doing instructor ratings - it's not going to change. At least give those willing to give it a go some encouragement.

PM me Garman and I'll give you some decent information.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 08:14
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thanks for the info everyone!

I am curious, as an instructor at Singapore Flying College, would you only be training Singapore Airlines cadets?

I know that where I am training they provide training for a few major airline cadetships, and in the past couple of years these airlines have taken on instructors that train there cadets. Is this a possibility with Singapore Flying College, or must you be a citizen to qualify for their airline?
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 08:23
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Singapore only train their own cadets and yes they have a progression program.

Search for their ads on AFAP and contact them.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 08:46
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does anyone know of any other flying schools, that in the past instructors training airline cadets their, have progressed into that airline?
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 08:53
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Mate if you're so keen to get into an airline go and get a charter job. If you have even half a clue you'll be on a twin soon enough and gain that precious airline career much sooner.
The Comet.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 09:18
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yes I am very keen for the airlines.
but there are a few things that are attracting me more towards instructing.
i feel that if i instruct i will gain a good understanding of a lot of the theory side of flying, topics such as aerodynamics, aircraft systems and IFR theory. i fear that if i went north (or anywhere else) and flew charter (having noone looking over my shoulder) i would become slack and maybe develop bad traits, while also maybe falling behind with a lot of the theory. i have thought about the pros and cons of each and just feel that instructing is the way to go for me.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 10:25
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i feel that if i instruct i will gain a good understanding of a lot of the theory side of flying, topics such as aerodynamics, aircraft systems and IFR theory. i fear that if i went north (or anywhere else) and flew charter (having noone looking over my shoulder) i would become slack and maybe develop bad traits, while also maybe falling behind with a lot of the theory
So what you are saying is flying around single pilot is detrimental to your career ??

Sit down, take a Bex, and have a long hard think!

Who has been filling your head with this stuff....
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 10:40
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Thumbs up

Garman

Mate this is the best I have got and straight from the hip.

I have done charter (2100+ hours), I have done instructing (1200+ hours), I am now a CFI and a Chief Pilot (again). I haven't been there and done everything but between me and my friends we possibly have. All the guys I was driving 206s with are now captains at Wirgin and the guys I drove Chieftains with are now Captains in Pornstar or FOs in major intl airlines, or driving jets and CASA's in Antarctica, or driving for the RFDS.

I have a bit of an insight into what is going on out there and I have to say that the best way you can get "airline" skills is to get out there in a CHTR environment and learn from other guys. Change companies every 12 months and push and progress and LEARN. When you have done 12 months SE charter and then 12 months ME charter, move on to turbines.

Instructing is great... AFTER you have done 1-2 years charter and you actually have some real knowledge to pass on to your victims.... er, students. Instructing will make you soft (and bitter) quicker than CHTR.

To be a good airline operator you have to be SHARP and REGIMENTED. You have to hone your skills and preferably have someone in the LHS (or RHS) helping you hone them.

If you're really hot, go out to Dubbo and fly with AIrlink for a couple of years. That'll bash you into shape....

... and GOOD LUCK!

... oh and learn that "their" is posessive and "there" is a location

... "twins" is plural... "twins's" is possessive.

... and yes it matters. I have recently received 30+ resumes and guess which were first culled?
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 10:45
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...oh and incidentally, it is my not-very-humble-opinion that YOU decide how slack you get on your academic knowledge.

you have your ATPLs to study for now, boy...
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 22:17
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4 figures of instructing behind me, I respectfully disagree 1224.

I wonder what the charter employers would say about this topic?
das Uber Soldat is offline  
Old 29th Nov 2007, 22:40
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Total crap. Real job? Buddy - get a grip. Arrogance like that will see you canned in plenty of places in this industry before you've even walked through the door. You'd be amazed at how watching and teaching day in day out, with demonstrations, can actually improve your overall flying skills. It's not all about muscle memory. I instructed from day 1 up to multi-engine IFR and then flew multi-engine IFR charter in a variety of multi engine aircraft, including multi turbine, before moving onto the airlines.
Actually, I am an instructor. I'm not amazed how often demonstration and 'watching' improves hand flying skills. Whilst there is going to be some improvement, speaking strictly in terms of stick and rudder, all my colleagues including those with up to 7000hrs instructing ME IFR remark that once back in the left seat they, for a time at least, are not up to their usual standard. Call that arrogance if you need to, I just believe its the reality. Its not to say instructors cant fly well, or very well, but I fail to understand how you can develop your hand flying ability from not hand flying. Explain to me how this is more, or even equally advantageous as another pilot doing nothing but? I would have thought it basic common sense, oh well.

I can assure you I looked back every single day whilst flying charter thinking how much I appreciated having a solid KNOWLEDGE as well as skills when it came down to handling a high work load in single pilot IFR operation. I'm not saying this for every organisation, but some of the things that other crew didn't know during crew room chats whilst planning IFR flights used to amaze me. Guys with 1000's of multi-IFR flying still didn't know the rules about descent below MDAs. Anyone who thinks that an in depth knowledge of how to fly the aircraft from a regulation point of view is less important than stick flying it shouldn't have a licence. I can assure you that having done both instructing and charter to pretty much the highest level, the guys I worked with instructing had a much better grasp on the rules than those who had done only charter and I never saw their flying skills as having suffered because of it.
I agree, knowledge wise instructing is a fantastic avenue and I took the same path for that very reason. I too have seen a lot of charter only pilots who are at best vague with theory and procedure.

It's not all about being able to land an aircraft into a short strip. For people with airline aspirations, the decision making, knowledge of rules and regulations AND being able to fly an aircraft is all equally important - something well carried if you take pride in your work as an instructor.
Sure is, well put.

This guy makes a genuine, well written enquiry, and once again a couple of jokers shoot him down before anyone has had a chance to give him a decent reply. No-one is saying a newbie is going to make the greatest instructor in the world, but someone is going to have to instruct. He'll start out teaching the basics of GFPT and progress from there. I'm sure he won't be looking to give out aircraft endorsements in the first week. Fresh CPLs are still going to be doing instructor ratings - it's not going to change. At least give those willing to give it a go some encouragement.

PM me Garman and I'll give you some decent information
Now, in all honesty, maybe if you had read my post with a little more care, we could have avoided all this. I was speaking STRICTLY in terms of hands on flying. "If you want practical hands on flying, don't instruct". Thats the quote. Being an instructor myself, I'm reasonably sure thats a fairly accurate comment.

By no means is that a comprehensive dismissal of instructing as a viable and rewarding career path or means of progression, I'm merely adding my thoughts on a very specific area to one of the many questions he posed in his initial post.
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 23:03
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Dear Bendo,
Can you please accept my apology for the atrocious spelling contained in my resume and correct the word twinsí to twinsís .
I will try harder next time.
Thank you
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 23:09
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A little thought from my corner of the world.

Over here, in my experience, most small places like to employ instructors that they have trained themselves. If you move to another training establishment, you could be seen to be "poaching" a job from and up-and-coming instructor that is already training there.

We do however have a large training establishment here - CTC, anyone heard of it...? that will take instructors from other parts of New Zealand.

(To teach all the Poms that make their way over here )
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Old 29th Nov 2007, 23:23
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I think it is also important to not become an instructor for the reasons of furthering your career to airlines or because it is the most "comfortable" option for you. Of course you will plan to move on one day, but you can't have such tunnel vision.

It is important that you have a passion for passing on your knowledge on to other students and enjoy the teaching aspect, rather than just doing itso YOU can get good at the theory aspect.

Otherwise you will be wasting the poor students time and money. I have seen many instructors like this, it's a real shame to see

Good luck in whatever you choose mate
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