Shoreham - A rip off

[Al Smith]

I was flying out of Shoreham last week and was charged a £30 circuit charge plus £17.50 landing fee all for a 28 day check. Is Shoreham the biggest rip off in GA in the UK?

[IO540]

I was flying out of Shoreham last week and was charged a £30 circuit charge plus £17.50 landing fee all for a 28 day check. Is Shoreham the biggest rip off in GA in the UK?

If you fly to some unkept dump calling itself an airfield, pick up a few stones in your prop while taxiing, causing damage which (accumulated) costs 3 or 4 digits on the next prop overhaul, would that be called a rip-off?

I am not sticking up for Shoreham in particular but that is the choice we face in GA.

Shoreham is in very good condition, well maintained, and has excellent and most helpful and courteous ATC.

If you taxi into a pothole and smash the prop and have to have the engine stripped (say £15k-£20k) that's not so good either. I know renters don't need to worry about that but it does eventually translate into higher costs which have to be passed on.

Of course many will say a 400m grass strip is all they need, which is OK for the appropriate aircraft types, running mogas.

[Al Smith]

I was in a helicopter

[A and C]

Some AVGAS burners are happy with 400m of grass! The DR400 and C182 spring to mind.

[flyingfemme]

Sympathy Al.

There does seem to be a general "helicopter tax" in this country - sort of, think of a number and double it. Sits side-by-side with the "multi-tax" and the "turbine tax".

Must confess I don't see any difference in the services and facilities required :ugh:

[IO540]

Maybe, in a helicopter, not flying to an airport is the answer.

If everybody had a helicopter, we would not need airports.

[wsmempson]

I flew into Shoreham earlier in the year and was delighted (in a really small minded way) to see that my aircraft was shown on the arrival board in the waiting area. I didn't remember what the landing fee was, so it shows you how easily pleased I am.
I did hear that Shorehams owners were in the throes of going under - any truth to this?

[BackPacker]

What's this circuit charge for? I've never heard of an airport charging for the use of the airspace. Landing, sure. T&G, obviously. Missed approach, okay I can live with that. ATC/Eurocontrol en-route charges for IFR flights, fine. But a circuit charge? Is there a legal basis for that?

I checked the VFR flight guide and it only mentiones a 16.50 UKP landing fee (for up to 1.5 MT), nothing else.

[BRL]

Is it me or did I see a Parking Meter there recently? :confused:

[effortless]

Is it me or did I see a Parking Meter there recently?

Did you have to? Now we will all see them!:eek:

[scooter boy]

"Maybe, in a helicopter, not flying to an airport is the answer."

IO540 - you are spot on with this.:ok:
90% of my (helicopter) landing fees are ..er... free because I use private sites rather than airports.

The best parts of keeping your heli @ home are no hangarage charge, bowsered fuel and the convenience of going from your back yard to someone elses or to an airport only if you really must.

Unfortunately most heli maitenance shops are at airports (with the exception of Rotorspan @ Droitwich) so for maintenance you have to take the landing fee on the chin.

Alternatively you could land in the car park, put the wheels on and push in inside the airport perimeter..:} that's the kind of pennypinching that made this country great!

SB

[smarthawke]

Al

Prize goes to you for an absolutely brilliant answer, laughed even more than reading another one of sternone's flying death trap opinions.....

[Billredshoes]

Always has been
Always will be !

[niknak]

Al, out of interest, how many circuits did you do?
£17.50 for the landing fee seems reasonable, if, for example, you did another 3 touch and go's and/or an instrument approach, another £30 is about the norm' for an airport of Shoreham's size and operation and given the cost of running the airport, very reasonable.

[Al Smith]

Three circuits so I suppose they could have charged me three landing fees.

[tigerbatics]

I think Shoreham have a helicopter circuit charge per time period/session @ £30. So it is not charged like proper aeroplane circuits.

Yes, there are parking meters now at Shoreham. They will charge 50p per 3 hours I'm told or £2 per day. Owners of aeroplanes based there will also be required to pay. OUTRAGEOUS I think.

This is typical of the management style that has seen the new 'owners', they actually have a lease from the local authority, achieve the feat of reducing their share value from £394 to 9.5P in the course of about 9 months!

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Shoreham is typical of a succesful GA friendly airfield being turned into a total shambles by a succession of incompetent management styles. ATC think they are controlling Heathrow, the Airport Management think it's Heathrow and the small guys (Us GA types) are getting shafted all the time. To charge for all go arounds is just plain greedy and surely will come back to bite them when somebody doesnt go around when they should and crashes. I'm surprised they are not charging people to taxi across the grass!

The same has happened at most 'larger' airfields like Norwich, Bristol, Southampton, Bournemouth Cardiff, Exeter, Southend etc who all, bar Southend, appear to treat the smaller GA world like the dirt on their shoes.

If it wasn't for their own planning conditions, I'm sure Shoreham would be a very profitable piece of housing estate for the local council by now.

I avoid it at all costs, unless somebody else is paying the bills.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Qualify what you mean by 'ATC think they are controlling at Heathrow'. The ATCO's are fully qualified controllers who are required to protect their licence and abide by the same licence requirements set out in MATS pt1 and their own MATS pt2 approved by the CAA, just as a Heathrow controller has.
A difference being that they are dealing with alot of novice, weekend and professional pilots without the same airspace protection or Radar aids to assist them.
As for misssed approaches, I agree a missed approach should not be charged if it is on the grounds of safety. But for training, I am sorry if you are using the ATC facilities for training why should the ATC unit providing you with the service not charge you for it?
Alot of pilots are in the priveliged position to be able to afford to fly. Facilities don't come cheap to install run and maintain..
Of course you are entitled to complain about prices, but think logically about it before you do so.
Oh and I have no connection to EGKA... Wrong end of the country. :}

[DBisDogOne]

If you want the kind of read that makes you go :eek:, I suggest you check out the lateset AOPA 'General Aviation' magazine concerning the wonderful commercial record of the two characters who now own/control Shoreham Airport (Erinacous?). How do these people get away with it. :(

[tigerbatics]

I think the two you refer to have just gone from the board of Erinaceous. With a £700,000 payoff. They also own the operation at Fast helicopters at Thruxton and Shoreham, together with Alan Mann Helicopters which they bought from Erinaceous for £1.

[Mike Cross]

Chuffer talks quite a lot of sense, though not perhaps with the right target in mind.

I learnt to fly at Shoreham in the 70's and it had full ATC then. Fact is nowadays that full ATC is a luxury that few of us bimblers need or are willing to pay for. Many licensed fields with ab-initio training work very well with less than full ATC (AFISO or A/G).

There is of course a certain frisson some pilots get from pretending to be a "proper" pilot, landing at airfields with full ATC and other facilities like lighting, navaids and arrival/departure boards whether or not they actually need them. Unfortunately they all end up being paid for from somewhere.

It goes without saying that Shoreham under the long standing reign of the present Manager was a hugely profitable jewel in the crown of Brighton & Hove Council. One wonders why Erinaceous feel the need to install parking ticket machines after acquiring such a goldmine.

I don't think it's at all fair to lay the blame for Empire Building at the door of the ATCO's.

[Al Smith]

ATC at Shoreham do have an ability to keep you waiting as do ATC at Manston.

[LysanderV8]

ATC may have the ability to keep you waiting, but since I have been a resident aircraft owner at Shoreham, I have never ever been aware of any deliberate delaying tactics. It's many years now since I was in ATC myself (not at Shoreham) but despite that I think I would recognise anything that was not designed to maintain a safe and orderly flow of air traffic.

The guys and gals in the tower at Shoreham are, in my view, some of the best. Indeed, their patience with the great number of students (and the odd instructor!) that train there is really quite remarkable on occasions. The provision of full ATC is a distinct benefit for most students, I feel.

Whilst this clearly increases the costs to use Shoreham, I do think that value is certainly given in terms of landing fees, currently £16.50, compared to Goodwood's £15.90, both inclusive of VAT. Goodwood is all grass, often waterlogged, with FISO's.

We have to hope that the situation with Erinaceous will be sorted out very soon. With any luck somebody, or a consortium of some kind, will be able to take the airport off their hands and give them some much needed cash - we know they are looking to offload assets.

Shoreham is a massive GA asset, and it needs all the support it can get from the GA community. Landing fees may be higher than many other places, but there's plenty to see and do and the food in the restaurants is excellent.

If you have never been, please try to drop in. If you have, then please come back soon.

[IO540]

Shoreham is a massive GA asset, and it needs all the support it can get from the GA community. Landing fees may be higher than many other places, but there's plenty to see and do and the food in the restaurants is excellent.

Couldn't agree more.

Shoreham has the nicest and most helpful and polite ATC I know of.

If the place shut, loads of pilots would simply stop flying, due to lack of drive-able alternatives. Lydd for example is a 2 hour exhausting drive, in the middle of absolutely nowhere. Goodwood is no good; waterlogged grass.

The landing fee is a few minutes' flying time. Also the place is clean and has an excellent hard runway. Every time you land your nice plane on muddy grass and cover it in muck, or better still ding the prop on a stone (many hard runways are covered in them - take Elstree for example) that is a few quid that will go on your maintenance sometime in the future.

Shoreham should be supported by all.

[niknak]

The fact are, (mostly supported), that to run an airport of any size costs money, substantial amounts of it and it would probably make Al's eyes water to know how much.
He probably doesn't appreciate that, if costs to the airport owners were broken down, landing fees don't even cover the costs of emloyees required by regulatory authorities, (ATC, Fire Service, Security), it's income from concessionares and commercial property which makes the difference.

It's clear from Al's posts that he has an unjustified problem with anyone in authority at an aerodrome, i.e ATC.

[Flap 80]

How much longer will the Shoreham ATIS report that the Shoreham DME is out of service?
With the increasing number of Schedules/ad hoc charters being flown from EGKA I am suprised that operators are not clamouring for its return to service......especially when landing on R/W 20.
Do we have to wait for an aircraft to have an incident before we read that the AAIB is making recommendations that the DME be repaired a.s.a.p.???

[IO540]

I don't think there are many smart pilots around who fly an NDB/DME approach using the NDB and the DME.

Much safer to fly the GPS overlay version - these have been in the IFR GPS databases for donkeys years.

If you set a DCT to "EGKA" or to "SHM" you get a GPS "fake DME" distance, and use the OBS mode of the GPS to track the appropriate radial, outbound and inbound.

I never wrote any of the above of course ;)

A DME is worth having though.

The real problem is that the Shoreham 20 approach is mandatory-DME so you can't even request it at the moment. All you can fly is the 02 NDB only approach and a circle to land - this is fine in daytime and no heavy rain. The MDA is the same IIRC since the 20 IAP is 800ft and while the 02 IAP is about 600ft, the minimum for circling to 20 is again 800ft. The temporary full-GPS IAP which existed during the trial didn't improve on the 800ft which was a real missed opportunity. What is the point of a GPS approach if it offers the same minima as the conventional one?

[TheOddOne]

What is the point of a GPS approach if it offers the same minima as the conventional one?

Because it gives the aerodrome operator the opportunity to save the expense of maintaining out-of-date navaids. Every aerodrome I know of loses money hand over fist on provision of facilities for aircraft movements (and that includes the larger ones such as Gatwick and Hounslow Municipal) so anything that reduces that loss is welcome.

I think NDBs are due to go in a couple of years. Personally, I'll miss them but practically all the a/c I fly in now have GPS, even if it isn't a moving map. I always carry a hand-held and spare batteries, just in case.

TheOddOne

[Al Smith]

I think not, when you are paying £350 an hour for a Self fly hire helicopter waiting ten minutes to taxi across to whiskey at shoreham is expensive.

[Al Smith]

Have to say though some ATC people are very good, not all are power crazy non pilots.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Shoreham is a nice place, but I recall renting a PA28-235 from there for a few days once. The aircraft was nice and thus I wasn't too surprised that it was a bit expensive. But, when you'd added on a fee per landing when doing a few circuits during the checkout, and another lump of money for the instructor, and I think there was some kind of day-club membership involved as well, the price was eye-watering.

But it's not alone; I flew into Bournemouth a couple of weeks ago for a meeting (with a company on the airfield) in something roughly C172 sized, and just got an invoice for £42.07 covering my landing fee and about 4 hours parking - equivalent to about 45 minutes flying in my syndicated aeroplane. I can't fault Hurn as an airport, but the price was a bit frightening.

And then there's Newcastle....



But, big patch of expensive real estate in a prime spot - it'll happen, and we'll just all have to live with it I think. The only thing that I think we can demand is the best possible service for our money (and yes, a ten minute hold in a helicopter costing you £350/hr probably doesn't qualify!).

G

[Al Smith]

What is Newcastle like - very expensive?

[Fly Through]

Right, so now we should give flight priorities in order of cost per hour????? Oh come on, at times KA has always resembled bees around a honeypot which is great but expect the odd delay now & again.

Controllers at Shoreham do not delay people out of spite.......well not since I left, anyway :}

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've not been there for a few years, but recall taking a PA28 in there for a night stop - service was spectactular right across the board, even a pot of tea and biscuits on a little tray whilst I waited to be picked up.

But the bill was around £50 for landing and a night's parking.

Very much a high quality / high price operation was my impression.

G

[effortless]

I first flew from there in an Auster in 1957 and have been flying there ever since, off and on. I remember the argument when they wanted to put in a hard runway. We all knew that the prices would go up. We didn't have to worry about soft ground any more though. I remember the first time I landed on the new runway. I almost wet myself at the narrowness. I am not renowned for greasing it in and it was a shock to the system.

All said, EGKA is one of my absolute favourites. ATC are helpful if pressurised sometimes and the terminal is a joy. It is one of the best run aerodromes I have seen I wish the restaurant was a bit more adventurous though. I have only just seen the parking meters. :ugh:

Bring back Miles I say.

[llanfairpg]

Ah CHUFFER I see why you aim for the numbers now--landing in the undershoot could be classed as taxing and be exempt a landing fee!

PS What a wonderful terminal, worth paying a bit more to keep that going isnt it?

PPS all helicopters should be charged double for everything

[Flap 80]

IO540, thanks for the info about GPS accuracy. My initial point was not to do with the private owners who may which to be flexible with MDA but to the burgeoning public transport operations who can ill afford to be flexible at MDA.
In the event that a mishap befalls a public transport /AOC flight the CAA,lawyers and AAIB will all have access to the GPS memory plots which at the moment are not approved as an IFR approach aid.
back to original point...is the DME to be reinstated and when?

[Al Smith]

All helicopters should be charged double for everything? Why? we don't damage runways or cause any wear and tear...........

[Flingingwings]

Al,
There have been fixed circuit and landing fees at Shoreham for some years :uhoh:
Not saying it's right or wrong.

The circuit fee for rotary is fixed regardless of the number of circuits you complete (IIRC there is a different fee for plank drivers per circuit/landing/touch and go).

As water logged runways aren't a rotary issue, perhaps Redhill or Goodwood would be a better option :ok:

For £350 ph costs I presume you fly the 44, in which case always remember you can land on the grass and lower the collective (hence datcon stops running) until ATC allow/hint you'll be crossing soon). Even on a 28 day check there is nothing to force you to maintain a hover.

The other option is to suggest a different order to your flying. Route out from Echo or the Eastern grass runway threshold along the river as that route doesn't interfere with the tarmac runway. On a busy summer day it is far quicker to route East with no delay and then turn North to route clear of the ATZ Westbound than to wait to cross to Whiskey and then route out using the rotary circuit (Conditions allowing, how often do you see one of the instructors conducting a 30 min trial lesson using Whiskey? 99% of the time they'll route in/out using the river, staying as far away from the plank runway in use as possible).

A pivotal point for a P1 to consider is the most appropriate routing and if you doubt the Instructors 'motives' - Question it!

Regards,
FW
Ps Al, I believe we know each other :cool:
Say hi to DE when you're next passing, bet it's much quieter now ML has gone :E

[llanfairpg]

Al only a joke, I just dont like helicopters

[trafficcontrol]

you know how they fly don't ya llanfairpg? The earth repels them! LOL :}

Joking Of course!!

[llanfairpg]

Actually I am going to ammend my post cos if I had traffic accident or a boating incident I would be very glad to see one.

I now like helicopters!

PPS what an amazing job local ambulance helicopters do, one of the most underated under funded resource in this country

[Oldpilot55]

I was very, very happy when the police helicopter landed ten minutes after my forced landing..and even happier when the ambulance helicopter arrived 50 minutes later. I was in the spinal injuries department within two hours.

[trafficcontrol]

You're absolutly right!

Amazing pilots too! I only said it cause deep down I can't afford to fly them! :rolleyes:
The old "make yourself feel better" trick! I donate to Air Ambulance frequently! Huge supporter. I think knowing about the costs in aviation helps you appreciate how lucky we are to have them, and how quickly they could dissapear without peoples good will.

[Al Smith]

Flingwing do we know each other?

[Al Smith]

Whtat about the parking meters - when did that start?

[Al Smith]

FW sound advice - when did we meet?

[Flingingwings]

Al,

If you learnt at Shoreham in 2005 it is almost a certainty that we met :p

Question is.............. Was I a student also :cool: or did I work there :{

FW

[Al Smith]

Got licence in 2005 - but at Manston.

[Flingingwings]

Ah,

Will put my thinking cap back on :uhoh:

Was that with Janet @ Manston perchance?

[2close]

Not just Shoreham but what is going to happen to landing, T&G, circuit, parking, etc. fees if, err......I mean when, the CAA publishes its proposed 94% increase in aerodrome licensing fees next year.

How the hell are smaller aerodromes with limited movements going to raise the extra revenue?

Muchos opposition required I think. IIRC the consultation begins on 13th December.

[Al Smith]

Yes, Janet at Manston. An Excellent teacher.

[bookywooky]

No - you're not seeing things. Shoreham Airport car parks all havenow 'Pay and Display' meters at Shoreham. So now they are going to charge you for gracing the airport with your presence; aswell as increasing the landing fees and charging for all non-ATC instigated go-arounds (that's really going to help safe flying isn't it?).
It's really nice to be wanted chaps, so Scrooge is alive and well after all.

:{ :E :eek:

[Barnaby the Bear]

A company making money from car parking!!! Whatever next? ... Hospitals might do it soon if you are not careful... Already been through the Go-around issue so not going back to that one.
I really would urge you to really explore the real cost of operating an aerodrome.. you might be surprised at how much revenue has to be generated from other sources and how little comes from landing fees alone...ie, Car parking, Real estate etc. :ugh:

Maybe you should consider flying out of an airfield with little or no fire and rescue facilities... grass that becomes boggy in the winter and a mud splattered aircraft.... Might save you a bob or two!

Sorry rant over.. again..:E

[Al Smith]

The trouble is if you make it too expensive no one will be able to fly and the system will fall in on itself. Then all are losers.

[stellair]

It is a really nice airfield though! Worth a bit extra? Yeah :)

[Al Smith]

Yes but like banks they push eveything to the limit - i.e. charge as much as they possible can but still keep the punters in GA paying.............

[Kirstey]

But Baranby - The restaurant has been empty for two weeks. They've lost more money from the restaurants than they've gained in parking!

Small airfields with the exception of Barton DONT charge for car parking. Shoreham is an exception not the norm.

Incidently the buildings and landside are all operated by a different company than the airside operation. All smoke, mirrors and corruption - I'm afraid you have no idea what you're on about Barnaby

[Barnaby the Bear]

My point isn't necessarily just about Shoreham. I do know what I am talking about.. And if the businesses around the airport have no rent or leasing attachment then the airport would have to generate more from movements. and therefore car parking is a reasonable subsidy.
As for the cafe being dead I suspect with recent weather alot of airfield eateries are dead.. .
Shoreham is a different operation to Barton. For a start they have ATCO's not FISO's, they have instrument approaches, they have sheduled flights which require a higher level of regulation.. All this costs alot of money.

Flying is not cheap and with a recent rise in fuel prices is not going to get cheaper. But why do people always look to the airfields to make their past-time cheaper (yes I know some people fly for business).
Remember They are a business not a charity. People will moan, but I guarantee they will still fly in and pay. Why?... Because its a facility they want to use. Otherwise they would use the nearest non-licenced airfield without the ability to get in or out during poor weather.
If they dislike it so much... Don't fly into there. :ugh:

[Kirstey]

The cafes' have more passing trade than pilot trade. I'm there most weekends, and the restaurants are always heaving. It's not going to affect the aviation trade - they don't need to pay for the parking meter do they!!

Shoreham has had it's NDB unservicable for months, the airport can't afford to fix it. The parking charges are not a sound revenue generator, they're the last effort to get some desperatly needed coin in before the parent company goes bust. The decisions are NOT sound business ones. Take it from someone who DOES know what they're talking about.

[Al Smith]

Soo what's going to happen to the airport when the parent company finally succumbs?

[IO540]

The freehold of the airport is owned by the local authority.

Erinaceous had a long lease on it, with a requirement to maintain aviation activities (don't know the exact wording) for some 25-30 years.

If Erinaceous go bust then the answer depends on the terms of the lease.

With some leases, the asset will revert to the freeholder. (which would be really funny in this case since AIUI the council got the deficit paid off in the sale and now they would get the airport back free of the deficit)

With most leases, the asset is at the disposal of the receiver or the liquidator, but they are still bound by any restrictions in the lease. Anybody who takes on the lease will also be bound by the same restrictions.

In the short term (years) I don't see Shoreham closing. In the long term, the property sharks will get all possible land and that will be the effective end of UK GA... another 20-30 years I reckon. Only farm strips, and expensive places like Bournemouth & Norwich etc will survive. Unless planning law is changed to create a development presumption enabling the development of airfields in open countryside.

[effortless]

If the leaseholder goes down and they cannot find a new leaseholder to take it on, then the property reverts to the freeholder. I am fairly sure that the freeholder doesn't want the responsibility nor does it have the expertise to run it anymore. They will seek a new tennant as soon as possible, probably too hastily.

[Flingingwings]

To be fair,
IMHO Erinaceous already (based on their previous performances, or lack of them) lack the expertise to manage the airfield properly.

As I recall their 'one stop shop' plan was to develop all the land South of the airfield into a business and retail park and then provide the airport with its own train station. When just about all those pipe dreams disappeared interest also seemed to disappear. They didn't buy the lease to run Shoreham as a charity, so hardly a surprise that they'll find everyway possible to raise any revenue :uhoh:

Call me a cynic but that may well explain why the airport belongs to Erinaceous (a company quite possibly in its death throes), but the aviation companies (flying schools and engineering) belong to the Erinaceous owners other company Longmint :eek:

Smoke and mirrors? You bet!

[Al Smith]

Flinging wings, you jest, are you telling me the entire operation is controlled by one company/ set of individuals?

[Flingingwings]

Al,

No jest :uhoh:

Web search Erinaceous :eek:

In brief they are/were a 'one stop' property services company, primarily owned by a brother and sister-in-law team.

The same brother and sister-in-law, created a second non listed company called Longmint. In simple terms Erinaceous own the leasehold on both Shoreham and Fairoaks airport, and Longmint own, amongst others, Sterling Helicopters (Norwich), TAMS (Sheffield), FAST (Shoreham/Thruxton), and Alan Mann Helicopters (Fairoaks).

For fear of getting this thread removed as per a couple that have previosly appeared on Rotorheads I'll say no more ( a web search will answer all :ok:)

But a property company own the airport lease ( Well at the moment anyhow)

FW

[Al Smith]

FW, I have googled Erinaceous and Longmint, it seems these people are just one step ahead of the law............

[Al Smith]

Erinaceous - hardly Mrs Tiggy Winkle.

[Dog's Bone]

Barnaby

... grass that becomes boggy in the winter and a mud splattered aircraft.... Might save you a bob or two!

Ah! you must be talking about that jewel in the crown, Barton, or should that read City Airport Manchester. Kirstey is correct, when the car parking ticket barriers [not pay 'n' display, but swinging one arm type] went up, the franchised clubhouse cafe is now mostly empty on weekdays, with little to no visitors by way of passing trade and they often pull the cafe's shutters down and go home around 4pm, claiming there are no customers. City Airport management keep asking the cafe staff to remain open, especially in the evenings, but where are the customers? Get rid of the barriers! Flying club members now patronise the nearby golf club, which is open all day, 'til late evening, with spacious free car parking and you do not even have to be a golfing member.

Barriers (pay for car parking) are a deterrent to many. During their first week of operation at Barton, a student turned up in his humvee for his helicopter lesson, saw the barrier, got on his mobile to his flying instructor ..... end of short story is he turned around and departed, for good. As an aside: the problem with the barriers at Barton is you then have to go to the Tower to pay and get an exit code ticket. By the time you walk to the Tower, form a queue when busy, hand your cash over and walk back to the car park, you could have wasted 30mins, maybe in the dark and pouring rain. The best one though was that the Tower reception at weekends is also staffed by the multi-tasking fire crew. All well and good, 'til the crash alarm goes off. Fine chaps as they are, they rush off, locking the reception. So if you want to pay and exchange your car parking ticket for an exit one, or for that matter pay for fuel and anything else, you have to wait until the emergency is over and they return. No good if you have just refuelled your helicopter with Jet A1, and are in a rush to leave. Just one of the problems when 'management' has lost the plot. Sounds like Shoreham is going the same way. Shame!

In the nearby town of Eccles car parking was always free in the town centre to encourage shopping. Some bright council employee recently decided that they would now have to pay at meters. The end result is that people now drive the extra miles to the out of town mega shopping complex, The Trafford Centre, where parking is free, and the shops in Eccles are wondering where their customers have gone, and if they will be able to pay the council rates!

As to 'Hospitals might do it soon if you are not careful... ' some already do, and its costing and arm and a leg (excuse the pun) if you are an Out Patient. You're spot on when you say ' If they dislike it so much... Don't fly into there'. As noted above, people vote with their feet. So trade falls still further down the black hole. Sorry for the geographical thread drift!

[Al Smith]

Dog's bone - hear hear.....